{"id":118825,"date":"2025-02-18T19:15:32","date_gmt":"2025-02-18T23:15:32","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118825"},"modified":"2026-02-18T15:44:39","modified_gmt":"2026-02-18T19:44:39","slug":"196-jill-frank","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/196-jill-frank\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 196. \u201cHe used to help me with debt\u2026Now he\u2019s making it worse\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cHe used to help me with debt\u2026Now he\u2019s making it worse\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/6UBLFLgU_U8\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/04IvFMhq9lYslZvSr8NE0q?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Frank (29) and Jill (33) are parents of two young kids and are trapped in a vicious cycle of overspending and debt.<\/p>\n<p>With fixed costs eating up 107% of their income and $25,000 in credit card debt, they\u2019ve been repeatedly digging themselves into a hole\u2014and scrambling to climb back out. Frank solves panic with credit card balance transfers. Jill struggles with emotional spending rooted in childhood. Their lack of communication and alignment has created a wedge in their marriage, making it hard to face their financial reality together.<\/p>\n<p>Can Frank and Jill cut spending, break old habits, and build a stable financial future for their family\u2014or will they let the weight of their debt pull them down?<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>NordVPN | Secure your online privacy with NordVPN\u2019s special offer. Get a huge discount on a 2-year plan, plus 4 bonus months free, when you sign up at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/nordvpn.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/nordvpn.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Superhuman | Get a free month of lightning-fast email at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/superhuman.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/superhuman.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>ZocDoc | Download the ZocDoc app for FREE\u00a0 at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/zocdoc.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/zocdoc.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0then find and book a top-rated doctor today.<\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Fabric by Gerber Life | Join the thousands of parents who trust Fabric to protect their family. Apply today in just minutes at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Links mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/iwt.com\/apply\">I\u2019m looking for couples to work with on my podcast in 2025; please apply at iwt.com\/apply<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/iwt.com\/moneyforcouples\">Order my new book: Money for Couples<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:01:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0On today\u2019s episode\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:18]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Our mentality is always like, it\u2019s just me and him. And if we just put enough stuff around us, then we\u2019ll be all right. We\u2019ll be able to function. And it\u2019s not true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meet Frank and Jill.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:29]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Groceries have quadrupled since the start of our debt to now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Frank is 29. Jill is 33. They\u2019re married with two young children, and they are stuck in a vicious cycle of overspending and credit card debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:46]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m angry at this cycle. I\u2019m angry at myself. I\u2019m angry that we can\u2019t be aligned. I\u2019m frustrated.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Frank and Jill both struggle with the money messages they grew up with.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:58]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I was taught by my mother that the credit cards are the devil, and if you get them, they are going to ruin your life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:04]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019d ask like, \u201cOh, can we have this cereal?\u201d all And she\u2019d be like, \u201cNo, we don\u2019t have a coupon for that.\u201d And so it was just constantly like, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They tell themselves stories that prevent them from taking responsibility for their poor spending habits.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:18]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0My \u200aRich Life is not driving a Ferrari. I want to be able to just relax and go places and go hang out with the kids and not fear poverty.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And\u00a0their inability to talk about money has driven a massive wedge in their relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:33]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I felt like he\u2019s checked out. Even when I asked, \u201cHey, can you figure out what your retirement is?\u201d It was like, I don\u2019t care. And to me, I\u2019m like, \u201cDon\u2019t you understand that\u2019s what we\u2019re working towards?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If things don\u2019t change soon, they might face some major consequences.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:50]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The biggest fear is we\u2019re going to be bankrupt and all of the fears that we have been fueling are going going to be reality.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can they ditch their old money habits and start working towards building their\u00a0\u200aRich Life?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:04]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We need to stop doing these things to us, and we need to come together and make time for each other and make time for our money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, let\u2019s meet Frank and Jill.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m about to open Frank and Jill\u2019s conscious spending plan, which breaks down their net worth, income, and exactly where they spend. You can download and create your own\u00a0Conscious\u00a0Spending\u00a0Plan or CSP using my free template\u00a0at\u00a0iwt.com\/CSP.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:32]\u00a0Okay. Jill and Frank, they write, \u201cWe both want to live a \u200aRich Life, but we continue to block ourselves from making sustained changes. We are back in debt again after our second child. We\u2019re trying to get out of debt before our credit cards go high interest next August.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:48]\u00a0She says, \u201cI always want to plan and think ahead, so I often bring up money conversations, but I end up chasing him and nagging him for things to happen. We struggle with overspending, me out of emotions and him out of resentment and emotions. He never spends anything, and I always end up making the purchase for the kids and the household.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:06]\u00a0This is a very common dynamic. Let\u2019s take a look at their CSP. Assets, 341,000. Investments, 27,000. Savings, $42, not $4,200. $42 in savings. And debt is 449,000. Total net worth of negative 80,000. Okay, before I go on, I should point out that it\u2019s often that people have a negative net worth, especially early on in their lives.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:34]\u00a0That is when you factor in things like student loans or other types of debt. But what is obviously and immediately concerning is the fact that we have anyone with only $42 in savings, but especially young parents. If I saw this in my own life, I would stop everything and I would focus on this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:53]\u00a0This is a red alert. It is a 10 out of 10 emergency. Let\u2019s keep going along. Gross monthly income is about $120,000 a year. Okay, nice. Fixed costs at 107%. Okay, right there is the ball game. They are broke. They are spending more than they make every single month just on fixed costs alone. So this is it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:15]\u00a0Right here we know why they feel stressed. We know why they are fighting about money, avoiding money, using words like chasing and nagging. It\u2019s right here. Let\u2019s break down what\u2019s going on in this fixed costs. Housing costs are not crazy. They\u2019re at about 21% or so. Got a car payment of $750. Nothing crazy as well. Let\u2019s see what else. Whoa. Debt payments at $1,571 a month. That\u2019s a big deal. And then groceries at $1,500 a month. It\u2019s difficult when you have two of those things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:50]\u00a0Let\u2019s look at investments. Predictably, they\u2019re at zero. Savings are\u2013 what the hell? Savings are at 5%, but that 5% is $300 a month for Christmas. And then guilt free spending says negative 12%. I don\u2019t believe that. I believe they\u2019re probably eating out, probably spending on a bunch of discretionary stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:10]\u00a0I almost guarantee that they\u2019re spending a ton of money on kids\u2019 stuff, people who are in debt, especially credit card debt, it\u2019s almost 100% correlation being in credit card debt and an inability to say no to kids. So there\u2019s a lot going on here, but I\u2019m actually really excited to get a chance to speak to them. I think that we can make some big, big changes with their spending and probably zoom out and really help them think about money in a different way. So looking forward to talking to them.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:40]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0we have big problems to attack here. The biggest fear, is we\u2019re going to be bankrupt and all of the fears that we have been fueling are going going to be reality. We\u2019ve tried to get ourselves out of this process three times, and we\u2019re back here again. We don\u2019t have the tools. There\u2019s something deeper here. We need a behavioral change, and I\u2019ve seen your podcasts and your videos, and I\u2019m like, \u201cOkay, this might be the person who can help us get to that space that we\u2019re trying to hide from.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And if I could wave a magic wand right now, what would I do for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:16]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Showing us the mirror, how we\u2019re both playing a role in this. Because it\u2019s two of us. It\u2019s not just him. It\u2019s not just me. It\u2019s both of us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you say, Frank? If I could wave a magic wand, what would you want me to do for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:28]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0That question\u2019s tough for me because the magic wand is just obviously just erase our debt and be done with this. But what does that do for me? Ultimately, I\u2019m just going to do it again. I want to learn how to stop going into debt, how to stop these compulsive behaviors of just, oh, it\u2019s 50 bucks. Oh, it\u2019s 20 bucks. I want to stop getting myself into more and more problems.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:47]\u00a0The one thing I want to take away from here is hope. I want hope that there is something that we can do to problem solve. And I want there to be just this motivation that we can find to just get out of this, what feels like a forever-ending hole, like a tunnel that\u2019s just slanted downwards.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How would you describe your financial situation today?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:08]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Our financial situation to me is credit card debt in this economy with two kids is tough. You felt like you get ahead, but then you don\u2019t because clothes, kids\u2019 school, everything is just getting expensive and more and more each day. And so our financial situation is, right now, we\u2019re just bearing through these first five years, while childcare is like 1,500 bucks a month. So we\u2019re just grinning this out because we\u2019re just going down just enough every month in the red.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Jill, how about you? How would you describe your financial situation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:41]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like it\u2019s self-inflicted. I think the childcare is a piece of it. If we could just hone in our impulse control and the wants, I think we would be fine. To me, I think it\u2019s a communication and being on the same page thing and being proactive versus reactive and being conscious and able to make decisions together. And to me, that\u2019s where the problem is, is that we just can\u2019t be on the same page ever, or it\u2019s an argument. Or the other person\u2019s like, \u201cOkay, whatever. Just do whatever.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So I\u2019m hearing a few different things. I\u2019m hearing your financial situation is self-inflicted, which is contradicting what Frank said about clothes are getting expensive. Childcare is getting expensive. Groceries are getting expensive. And I\u2019m hearing communication is an issue. You don\u2019t really talk about money, or if you do, it\u2019s quick. It\u2019s fly by night. It\u2019s disagreements or fights. One person retreats.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:35]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did the two of you have a shared vision of money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:38]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We started your program and we realized a lot of the things we want for the future are very similar. But we never had had that conversation before, so we really never knew that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s good. Which program are we talking about? My book or my Money Coaching program? What are we talking about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:53]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The online Money Coaching program.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And what happened when you finished the program?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:57]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We sure didn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really? What happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:00]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The same cycle that we always have.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:02]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Fear, and we get scared. We don\u2019t want to look at the reality.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you go through the videos. Did you attend one of the calls?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:09]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:09]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Cool. What did it feel like when the two of you were on the live call?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:14]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Fear.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:15]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I got hope.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hope. Fear, shame, and hope. Interesting. Were the two of you sitting together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:21]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We couldn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:22]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We have to divide and conquer with the kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How old are the kids?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:26]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Seven months and four years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Okay. All right, so you\u2019re really in it. Young kids. Okay. Did you talk about the Money Coaching after you attended the session?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:38]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:38]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We did. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:39]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re hearing all these things about how people can live your \u200aRich Life, how to be somebody that is enjoying your own current financial situation as opposed to someone who\u2019s driving a Ferrari. I don\u2019t want that. I want to be able to just relax and go places and go hang out with the kids and not fear poverty. I want to be able to enjoy the small things. To just be able to eat out and not look at the bank account. That\u2019s what I want to do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does it take in order for you to do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:03]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Get our finances together in such a way that I don\u2019t have to question that the money\u2019s not there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. But then I\u2019m confused because y\u2019all didn\u2019t finish step two of the program.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:13]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:15]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Got busy, as we say.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0As we say, we didn\u2019t have time. Is that a phrase you use a lot?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:22]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Every day.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that true? Do you not have time?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:26]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels like it. Between kids and work, it just seems like we\u2019re running around like crazy people. Our one son has autism. Our other son\u2019s seven months old. So between daycare and work, we barely cross paths until it\u2019s Saturday or Sunday.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long would you say that this disconnection of time between the two of you has been going on for?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:46]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Seven months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Since the baby came. The second one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:48]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0No, no. For 11 years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:54]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Different.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:56]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Come on, it\u2019s been the entirety of our relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:59]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0As far as the disconnect of the time, we\u2019ve always avoided the conversations. But now that we\u2019re trying to come at the conversations, I feel like more times than not we\u2019re struggling to get the time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jill,\u00a0if I asked you what is your \u200aRich Life, what would you say to me?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:15]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0For me to be able to spend time with the kids and my husband and to have shared memories and build memories with the kids and be able to take care of our health, to just be able to live through the day and not be stressed and on the edge because our finances are in my mind all the time. Not being where I want to be, not being able to have those conversations, I have tried to figure out ways to come at conversations, and I always feel like it\u2019s not successful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you remember what my question was?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:48]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s my \u200aRich Life?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. And do you see where we just ended up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:53]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Me feeling like I can\u2019t have a \u200aRich Life with my husband.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say you talking about your problems versus painting a picture for me of your \u200aRich Life. What I can hear from both of you is a really narrow vision of where you are today. So much so that when I ask what is your \u200aRich Life, within 30 seconds, we\u2019re back to why you can\u2019t live your \u200aRich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:18]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Frank, do you see that pattern as well?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:20]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you both believe that there is a future where you can answer a question like the one I just gave you with a positive?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:28]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0When you asked the question earlier about how did you guys feel after you went on the monthly call, we both felt like, oh, look, people do do it. People have done it. And so the conversations to me was like, oh, we can do this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I appreciate that, and that\u2019s one of the things I love, is being able to expose and show you other people who\u2019ve gone through tough times and made it, so good. Okay. It sounds like you two conceptually believe that there\u2019s a future that can be brighter than today. Perfect. We\u2019ve got to believe that. Let me understand a little bit more about day-to-day lifestyle. Jill, what do you do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:05]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m a therapist. I own my own private practice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Cool. All right. Frank?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:10]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I work from home. I work in IT.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Great. All right. Let\u2019s talk about the finances. If you had to describe how you feel about your finances in one or two words, what would be the words?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:21]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Busy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:22]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Like a hamster wheel.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Have you ever felt calm about your money in the 11 years you\u2019ve been together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:28]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:29]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I used to be the sole income for a while when she was going to school, and so I had no debt. I just had to worry about affording the next thing, and that was calm, even though I now realize, looking back, I had it good. Then I was like, \u201cOh God. What am I going to do?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re a worrier. It\u2019s interesting that you worried back when you were even calm. You were worrying. Now you\u2019re worrying more. You\u2019re going into debt more. And you mentioned to me, if I had a magic wand, you would have me wave it, pay off the debt. But even if your debt was paid off, would you stop worrying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:01]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Something deeper than the amount on the spreadsheet. Right?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you notice that when I ask questions around how they talk about money, Frank uses the phrases,\u00a0\u201cWe are\u00a0too busy,\u201d\u00a0or,\u00a0\u201cWe can\u2019t find the time.\u201d\u00a0Now,\u00a0remember, they\u2019re parents with young children,\u00a0and it makes a lot of sense. They are incredibly busy. It\u2019s also a story that we commonly tell ourselves.\u00a0We are too busy to do X, and we find that the results show up, for example, with their finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:34]\u00a0I\u2019m not here to tell anybody how to run their time or even how to run their money, but once you get comfortable with the story that we are too busy,\u00a0suddenly it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. In fact, it\u2019s easy to dismiss most parts of managing your money. As Frank just mentioned a moment ago, he\u2019s been a warrior since before they had debt, so there\u2019s a lot to unpack around his relationship with money.\u00a0Let\u2019s listen in as he talks about the money messages he heard as a child.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:07]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I grew up in a house where money was like, you didn\u2019t have it. And if you did have it, it was spent ridiculous. Bill\u2019s not getting paid, but you go order $90 in pizza. As a kid, you\u2019re like, \u201cOh, yum. Pizza.\u201d As an adult, that\u2019s a poor choice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You grew up poor?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:24]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say middle class with self-destructive behaviors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Very interesting. What part of the country did you grow up in?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:30]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Columbus, Ohio.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you remember your parents saying about money when you were a kid?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:35]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We don\u2019t have any.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:37]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We got some. Let\u2019s go spend it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And they spend it on family stuff like pizza or anything else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:42]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Pizza, toys, adventures. We would go tubing down the creeks. We would go camping, eating out, stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then what happened when you didn\u2019t have money again? What would they say to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:53]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s no money. Can\u2019t go do those things. We got to wait till the next check.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you ever see your parents talking about saving or investing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:00]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t even know what stocks were. I heard of people investing. Of course, you\u2019ve watched movies, but you\u2019re like, \u201cHow do you even approach that?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you look back at your childhood, what lessons do you take away about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:12]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Save it. I know that contradicts what I just said, but save it. That\u2019s the lesson I took away. Save it all. Don\u2019t spend anything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a little contradictory based on how much you\u2019re spending right now, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:24]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. When the kids came along, it was like a brain switch for me. I was like, \u201cWell, they need it.\u201d I have to give it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait. Doesn\u2019t this sound like you just switched right into your parents?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:34]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want them to know, oh, we can\u2019t afford it. I tell my son, \u201cYou got to save up for that.\u201d I\u2019m trying to teach him lessons that I need to teach myself. I\u2019m trying to say like, \u201cWe only have five bucks.\u201d He goes, picks out an $8 toy, and I\u2019m like, \u201cOoh, the budget\u2019s five for this one.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can get away with this for about a year and a half more. And then they get too smart. They know what\u2019s going on. Dad\u2019s over here telling me one thing and doing completely the opposite. Kids are really smart. You better find a new line. That\u2019s not going to last much longer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:03]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think will happen when your son starts to point out how you\u2019re saying one thing and doing another? How are you going to react to that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:09]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m going to feel horrible. Like, dad, we don\u2019t have it, but you can go do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Very interesting response. You\u2019re going to feel horrible, not I\u2019m going to make a change right now, so that he never has to point out that I\u2019m saying one thing and doing another. What do you get out of that, out of saying, \u201cI\u2019m going to feel horrible,\u201d instead of talking about what you are going to change behaviorally?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:33]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I have this path in my mind that it\u2019s not changing. Sounds like I\u2019m looking in the future and I see no change.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It seems to me, I agree, you believe your future is already determined and therefore when you look at your future, which is a future you don\u2019t like, the only natural conclusion is, I\u2019m going to feel horrible. Can I tell you? I look at it differently. I look at your future as unwritten.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:52]\u00a0Of course, you have some clothing that you are wearing. It came from your childhood. These are messages you picked up. These are lessons you learned consciously and unconsciously. So yes, you\u2019re bringing those with you, but the next chapter of your life is not written yet. I believe I have control. I have agency over what is going to happen to me next. Do you think that way or not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:13]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I can learn to think that way. I think I can change and do something different. That\u2019s why we\u2019re here. I wanted to come here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m glad you\u2019re here, and I appreciate you showing up and going full force with me and with your wife. Okay, so you grew up, not a lot of messages about positive saving, investing. A lot of, we can\u2019t afford it. Now I\u2019m curious about you, Jill. What do you remember about the phrases your family, your parents used when you were growing up as it relates to money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:42]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I grew up poor, so the phrases were usually that we don\u2019t have it or we can\u2019t have it. We\u2019d go to the thrift store for clothes. When we\u2019d go to the grocery store, my grandma would always go down every single aisle and then she\u2019d have her coupons, and so she\u2019d whip out every single coupon.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:01]\u00a0And I remember we\u2019d ask like, \u201cOh, can we have this cereal? All of our friends have this cereal. Can we have this one?\u201d And she\u2019d be like, \u201cNo, we don\u2019t have a coupon for that.\u201d And so it was just constantly like, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You mentioned your grandma.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:11]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0My mom has mental health issues, so my grandparents raised me, I think after two or three.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. Wow. I\u2019m sorry to hear that. And did that lead to you getting into the world of therapy?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:25]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0It did, yeah. It was a rough childhood. But my grandma was a big proponent of getting services, so even though we were poor, she made sure we had the state insurance and went to the therapist and saw people. And she always made sure we went to the doctors and dentists. So health was really important to her. We were poor, but we didn\u2019t need anything. We just wanted stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Of course. Every kid wants stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:53]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you grew up a lot of talk about, we can\u2019t afford it. And did that same type of conversation continue throughout your teenage years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:03]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0It changed. I would say probably in elementary my grandpa started talking to me, like\u2013 my grandpa was the financial guy, so he would be always sitting on the porch reading a finance book. He would always talk about the investments he was doing. So there was three of us, my sister and my brother, that they took care of.\u00a0And I\u2019m the youngest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:23]\u00a0So he always would talk to me about like, \u201cHey, these are the books. This is where I keep all of your guys\u2019 stocks.\u201d And when I started working, he was like, \u201cYou got to put back your 30% for savings.\u201d And I just, no. I didn\u2019t want to hear any of it. To me, it was like I finally had my own money to do all of the once that I was always told I couldn\u2019t do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:45]\u00a0I wanted a cell phone when I was in my teens, and they were not going to pay for a cell phone, so I had to buy my own cell phone. I wanted extra clothes, more than what they were going to be able to afford. And so then I would purchase those extra clothes. So it bred this concept of extra money when in reality that was the money that I needed to be preparing myself for life with. And he was constantly telling me that, but I just was like in one ear and out the other. It wasn\u2019t until we got out of debt the second time where I was like, \u201cOh, this is what he meant.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:21]\u00a0This is why this is so important. I am getting older and I don\u2019t have any savings. I don\u2019t have any retirement. And I\u2019m like, \u201cMan, all of that extra money that I was using for things that I wanted that I didn\u2019t need, I could have had all these savings because my needs were met with my grandparents.\u201d It\u2019s just the wants. And so that\u2019s exactly how I spend as an adult, and that\u2019s the challenge I have, is the telling myself, no, you do not need that. You have your needs met. That\u2019s my issue.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that the challenge you currently have as well?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:56]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I still fight it. I go through periods of time where I\u2019m like, \u201cI\u2019m on it.\u201d This is my plan. I want retirement. I want to not work my whole life. And then literally, I\u2019ll just be like, \u201cOh, but I really want that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Feel like a battle, like you\u2019re fighting a battle with yourself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:12]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0It does. It literally feels like my adult self is fighting my child self. I\u2019m trying to tell the child self like, \u201cDude, I know you want that, but time is running out.\u201d You got to get yourself together. And then the child self is like, \u201cHmm, I hear you, but I really don\u2019t care. Let\u2019s just get this one thing.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s powerful how Jill admits that.\u00a0Her grandparents provided for her and tried to teach her to save, but because the message she internalized was, you can\u2019t have that,\u00a0she struggles to manage her impulse control. It\u2019s like driving a car. Her grandparents only taught her how to hit the brakes, and that has turned into all or nothing for Jill.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:00]\u00a0Earlier,\u00a0we heard Frank describe the money habits that he picked up from his parents and is now passing on to his own kids.\u00a0There\u2019s a lot at play here, but I will say even the very situation they are in gives them the opportunity to rewrite their story. Let\u00a0me tell you what I mean. They\u2019re the parents of young children. That\u2019s incredibly stressful, overwhelming.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:23]\u00a0Of course, you\u2019re busy. Maybe true. But what if we rewrote that story to say,\u00a0yes,\u00a0we might be a little overwhelmed. Of course, we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0be busier than we ever thought, and we get to make amazing changes and to build a healthy relationship with money\u00a0that\u00a0will be passed down for generations to come.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:46]\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back after this short break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You said that you got out of debt for the second time. Can you walk me through the number of times you\u2019ve gotten into and out of debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:59]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0So while my grandfather gave great lessons on retirement and savings, he did not talk about credit cards with me. We didn\u2019t talk about how to use them, how to manage them, none of them. So I was already under this misconception of like extra money. So when I got my first credit card, I was like, \u201cOh, I have this extra money I can use? Oh, this is great. I\u2019m going to just spend it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:28]\u00a0And, \u201cOh, I only have to pay this small amount monthly. I can afford that.\u201d Then that was a slippery slope of me just, oh, I don\u2019t have it right now, but I\u2019m going to get paid. Let me just swipe my card, over and over and over again through my college years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much debt did you get into?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:45]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, God. The first time I think 12,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And did you pay it off?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:50]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I did, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did you do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:52]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0My husband said, I\u2019m not going to marry you until you get this debt paid off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re talking about Frank?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:57]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. We\u2019re talking about Frank.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? Okay. I have to say, that surprises me. Frank, I love the boundaries. I love that. I love any partner who says, \u201cLook, this is what I need in order to be in a healthy relationship. I\u2019m not trying to change you, but I\u2019m telling you what I need.\u201d Frank, that\u2019s pretty cool. Where did that come from for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:19]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It came from a very, very disciplined man, who would not spend any of his money unless he had it. I was taught, by my mother, that the credit cards are the devil, and if you get them, they are going to ruin your life. And so I didn\u2019t own one. I didn\u2019t want one and the debt associated with them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So Jill, what was your reaction when he said that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:38]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I\u2019ll take care of it. Don\u2019t hold my French fries. That\u2019s all it takes because we were, I think, six years in, five years in maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:49]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we waited a while.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s interesting. You waited five years to talk about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:55]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0She was still going through college and hadn\u2019t entered the workforce. And I was working full-time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All\u00a0right. So he said, I would like you to pay that debt off, otherwise we\u2019re not going to get married. And Jill, you were like, \u201cCool. Say no more.\u201d How long did it take you to pay that debt off?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:10]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0A couple of years. Yeah. Three years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Was it hard?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:15]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it was hard.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And looking back, do you feel proud?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:18]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. I celebrated when we got out of debt that first time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you get out of debt. Y\u2019all get married. When was the second time you got into debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:27]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It was when we lived next to a Earth Fair, which is like Whole Foods. And my wife grew up being told no on a lot of the food choices that she wanted. And credit card later, I turned around and look and I was blindsided by some severe debt and I was like, \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on. How much is severe debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:48]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it was 14,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What are you buying, Frosted Flakes or something? The same stuff your grandma told you you can\u2019t buy, you\u2019re like, \u201cI\u2019m going to buy it now?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:56]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0No, no, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:57]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I would handle pretty much all the stuff for the house. I would go grocery shopping, get the household goods, all those things, because he would go to the grocery store and get the cheapest stuff. And I\u2019d be like, \u201cI don\u2019t want this cheap stuff.\u201d And then he\u2019d get upset and say, \u201cWhy? We don\u2019t have the money for it.\u201d And I would say, \u201cBut we do.\u201d And then he was like, \u201cThen you just go grocery shopping. I don\u2019t care.\u201d I wanted the pristine health, so everything was organic, everything grass-fed. Everything was the best of the best.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:23]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It was outrageous to come home with a brown bag. I\u2019m like, \u201cIt couldn\u2019t have been that bad.\u201d You\u2019re like, \u201cIt was $400.\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cIt fits in a bag, a brown bag, and it\u2019s 400 bucks? What\u2019s in there? Gold?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It sounds like the way you brought it up would be jokey. Was it a joke or were you mad?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:39]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I was very mad. I didn\u2019t know that it was going on a credit card. I didn\u2019t know the true cost of these items. In the moment I\u2019d be like, \u201cOh, this is good. This is great. Oh, this tastes great. This is nice. How much was this? Okay, wow. That\u2019s outrageous.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:52]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0At the time it was like, how could you do this again?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you got into personal debt buying groceries for both of you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:00]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, so Frank finds out and then what happened with that debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:03]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I got upset and I said, \u201cI am going to fix this right now. You are going to give me your credit cards. I\u2019m going to take you down to a federal credit union. You\u2019re going to get yourself on a payment plan with a personal loan, and you\u2019re going to pay this off and you\u2019re going to hand me the cards.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is this guy? It\u2019s not Frank. It\u2019s like Frederico. Frederico comes out just freaking gangster, suave. He goes, \u201cThis is how it\u2019s going to be. You want to get married to me, Frederico, you\u2019re going to pay off your debt. $14,000 of debt. Let\u2019s go. We\u2019re going to the credit union. We\u2019re going to take care of business.\u201d Where did this come from? The second time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:37]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, wait till we get to the third time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on, Frederico. Let me take this step by step. I know you like to run [Bleep] around here. All right. So you go to the credit union, you put the payment plan in place, and what happens? It gets paid off. What\u2019d you do at the end when you paid it off?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:50]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Celebrated again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:52]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We went out to dinner.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0High five. Good job. Love you. Celebrate. Okay. Are we in the middle of the third time right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:58]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:59]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re in deep.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:00]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s a caveat here though, because after that last time I was like, \u201cI\u2019m sick of this cycle. I want to get ahead of this.\u201d And I went spreadsheet happy. I was like, we have to figure out where our money\u2019s going.\u201d And at that point I had broken the trust enough, I guess, he didn\u2019t care. He wasn\u2019t trying to have the conversation. I was chasing him for months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Even though the debt had been paid off. Why were you out of it, Frank?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:26]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I was so sick of having the mindset of we don\u2019t have it. We don\u2019t have it. I got jealous. I was like, \u201cWell, if we don\u2019t have it, why are you spending it and I\u2019m not?\u201d I was like, \u201cOkay, I\u2019m going to go buy a computer then.\u201d If I were going to rack up debt, I\u2019m going to do something for myself once in a while.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa.\u00a0I just have to jump in here because this is a heartbreaking comment from Frank. It\u2019s heavy, but I\u2019m also not surprised to hear it. The thing is when one person in a relationship is the money person, or even the enforcer,\u00a0as Frank or his alter ego, Frederico was, and the other person\u2019s just content to be along for the ride, that can often breed resentment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:08]\u00a0You do not want to be in a relationship where there\u2019s a parent-child dynamic. It is bad in so many ways.\u00a0And in this case that resentment led to Frank basically thrown in the towel saying, why bother? Why do you get to buy whatever you want and I have to be the bad guy?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:28]\u00a0This is one more example why it is so crucial for both people in a relationship to have an active role in managing\u00a0the\u00a0family finances. There can never be one money person because this is an example of what happens when there is. I talk more about this in my new book,\u00a0Money for Couples.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:51]\u00a0And real quick as you\u2019re watching this, if you enjoy these videos, you want to be the first to know when we drop a new one,\u00a0make sure you hit that Subscribe button. It really helps my team and me grow this channel.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what do you think about this decision looking back?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:05]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I screwed up royally. I should have had conversations and kept the mindset firm. You don\u2019t have it, you don\u2019t spend it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What happened on the third time? Tell me what\u2019d you buy and then we\u2019ll get into the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:17]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s so much at this point, I don\u2019t even remember, but I just know between electronics and children and household furniture, we bought a house. I think it was during COVID. The market was just going insane. And I was looking at all these forecasts and I was just like, either we buy a house this month or we\u2019re screwed. We did and then the market went off the roof and our house went up $150,000 in value.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait. Where\u2019d you get the down payment? Where\u2019d you get the money to furnish the house and maintain it? Where\u2019d you get all that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:47]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Credit cards.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:50]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:51]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Welcome to the debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:54]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:54]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Then we had our son, our 1-year-old at the time, and he was in childcare, so childcare was an expense. So as we were putting our money towards that, we were also like, \u201cWell, we need a couch. Oh, we need a table. Oh, we need a bookshelf. Oh, we need clothes. Go ahead and get the computer that you want because you\u2019re already $4,000 in debt. What\u2019s an extra five?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much are you in debt today?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:14]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Card debt alone, I think, is 25,000. Auto loan is 25, home is 220. Student loans, what are they?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:23]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0160 or 140.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:26]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We looked at it one day and we\u2019re like, \u201cOh, no. Oh, no. What do we do?\u201d How do I problem solve? How do I logically get rid of this? How do I solve it like the last two times? And I\u2019m panicking. I just don\u2019t have a good solution. The economy, groceries have quadrupled since the start of our debt to now. Everything\u2019s gone up. Childcare used to be 700 bucks a month. It\u2019s 1,500 today. I don\u2019t know what to do. Eventually, we\u2019re going to run out. Our debt was maxed out. Our cards were maxed. That\u2019s when we realized we did something wrong.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You didn\u2019t realize that before the cards were maxed out?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:05]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0No. We were like, \u201cWe have to spend this money. We don\u2019t have a choice. We have to do it.\u201d It\u2019s what we have to do to keep it going, keep the cycle, keep the lights on, keep getting the kids in school and keep paying for clothes and food. Ask us if we spent anything extravagant in the last year. I\u2019d say no. We have been pretty good I think about trying to make sure the things that we need are needs, not wants.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s in your house right now? What\u2019s the most expensive thing in there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:33]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, man.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Usually it\u2019s a car.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:35]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so the car. Yeah, obviously.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:38]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a van, 25,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019s next?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:42]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0The other car, which is 9,000. We got computers that are probably our next big items.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:48]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The furniture.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the most expensive piece of furniture?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:52]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Our bed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:55]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It was 2,500 for the base and then 3,000 for the mattress.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So you all have a more expensive bed than I do. Okay. What\u2019s next after the mattress, the $5,500 mattress and bed? What\u2019s next?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:07]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Solid wood Amish table.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:11]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Then a 3,000-dollar couch. We bought a fancy Roomba for $1,000. I bought a monitor for my computer gaming and working, and it\u2019s like \u200a$1,000. And I think that was in the cycle of just panic buying all the things that we wanted.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I make an observation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:30]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Frank, you said we haven\u2019t spent on a lot of extravagant stuff. I think you have, particularly for your income. The bed alone, not to mention the table, the multiple computers and on and on and on, that is extravagant.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:44]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Our mentality is always like, it\u2019s just me and him. So we have to figure out how do we make me and him work well enough to keep our day-to-day going. And so we\u2019re like, \u201cOkay, if we have a better monitor, then we\u2019re going to be working faster.\u201d If we have a Roomba that cleans the floor, then we won\u2019t have to mop the floor so often because we\u2019re so stressed. If we just put enough stuff around us, then we\u2019ll be all right. We\u2019ll be able to function. And it\u2019s not true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This is the most Americana of stories. We don\u2019t communicate effectively about money. We don\u2019t even spend a lot of time together. We tell ourselves the story that we\u2019re doing it all for our kids, but we lie to our kids. We tell them, save money. We don\u2019t save money. Meanwhile, we\u2019re increasingly in debt. We\u2019re busy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:30]\u00a0We start to concoct stories. Well, we need this because of that. Let\u2019s buy this. It\u2019ll make us feel better. We then tell ourself another layer of story, which is we\u2019re not actually buying anything extravagant. It\u2019s all necessary. We\u2019re investing in our time and ourselves. And you end up where?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:46]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, in debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In debt, disconnected, feeling behind, stressed out, bad health.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:53]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Here we are. Now, what happens if you keep going?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:57]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The biggest fear is we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0be bankrupt and all of the fears that we have been fueling\u00a0are going going to\u00a0be reality.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re going to be bankrupt. Do you know when?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:07]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0All the interest rates of the cards go on full strong next year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:11]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we\u2019re already in red.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, you have artificially low interest rates right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:14]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:15]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Part of my panic problem solving was I balance transfer to 0% interest cards for a year so that we would have some time to pay things down and just keep slapping as much extra income as we could. That\u2019s what we\u2019re doing to fix it. I\u2019m taking on more household stuff, my wife is taking on more hours at work. We\u2019re trying to get ahead.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Frank, what role has your panic played in contributing to this financial problem?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:39]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I get so overwhelmed and so anxious about it that I just push it to the next day. There\u2019s a tightness in my chest all the time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now imagine you bring that panic, that manic energy towards money. What ends up happening? We got to balance transfer. We got to do this. We got to buy this. We got to do this. Don\u2019t tell this. We got to fix this. We\u2019ll figure it out. I don\u2019t know what to do. I got to go to sleep. We\u2019ll figure it out tomorrow. Not calm, cool, and collected. Frenzy, panicked, making every short-term decision you can. Jill, you recognize this pattern that I\u2019m describing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:10]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I bring it up all the time. I wish we could just have a calm conversation. I just want to sit down and us just talk about it. It doesn\u2019t have to be anything more than just a conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, you are a therapist. Have you two gone to therapy together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:26]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We have in the past.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:27]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Was that helpful?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:29]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It was at the time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how come you haven\u2019t gone back to talk about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:33]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t think that was the thing you could do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you mean? There\u2019s a whole financial therapy industry. There\u2019s even therapists who can just help you talk about connecting.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I try to have these conversations with him. He just shuts me down.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:46]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t know there\u2019s therapy for money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:48]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0[Inaudible] talk about the expertise I have. He doesn\u2019t care about it. He doesn\u2019t want to hear it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s got to be tough.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:53]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s hard. I feel like I try to look at things from a big picture. I still have my issues. I have my anxious and all those things, but there\u2019s a lot of times before it got to this level that I tried to say, \u201cHey, something\u2019s not right.\u201d We need to sit down and look at this. And it was just like, it\u2019s fine, it\u2019s fine. It\u2019s in the green, it\u2019s in the green, whatever. It\u2019s fine. I\u2019ll just put money towards it. It was just constantly pushing me away from the conversation. And it was hard. I felt really alone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you feel that way today?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:29]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0He\u2019s gotten better, but I still feel like there\u2019s days where he\u2019s just\u2013 sometimes it feels like he\u2019s in his head having all these conversations with himself, and I\u2019m just on the outside of like, hey, I\u2019m here. And sometimes it\u2019s like I\u2019m talking to him and I\u2019m looking for feedback, or I\u2019m looking for engagement, and he just says, \u201cUh-huh,\u201d or tries to walk away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:51]\u00a0And it\u2019s been hard. I\u2019ve talked about therapy. I brought it up multiple times, and he\u2019s shut me down. I don\u2019t know how else to approach it to be heard. So then I give up and I say, well, I\u2019m not going to do this financial thing on own. I\u2019m not going to penny pinch on my own. And so I\u2019m just like, \u201cWho cares? Let\u2019s spend it on the credit card. I don\u2019t care anymore.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you both at that point where you both just don\u2019t care anymore?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:13]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I care a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:14]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I care now a lot. Yeah. I got really scared when we saw that big number, and it was double what we had ever gotten ourselves out of before. I got scared and I started to halt drastically.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0First two times you got into debt, it was Jill, and then the third time it seems like the roles were reversed. Am I reading that correctly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:32]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like I still played a role in it. For me, it was like, I don\u2019t care anymore, because we\u2019re not going to have the conversation. And I feel like maybe his was, I didn\u2019t get my opportunity, now here\u2019s my time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Fair enough. I appreciate that. So both played a part in debt number three. So why don\u2019t you all just keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:51]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I never wanted to keep at this rate. I\u2019ve never wanted this, to be in this state.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, you are here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:56]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, but we are here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So why don\u2019t you just keep going?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:00]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve been telling each other, we want to have generational wealth for our kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:03]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t care so much about generational wealth. I feel like we\u2019ve had a really hard life, and I would like to just be able to spend quality time together and to spend it with the kids and watch our kids grow up and actually be present.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:16]\u00a0I want to be home with them. I want to spend quality time. I feel like I\u2019m missing the time I have when I\u2019m healthy enough to be with my kids. So for me, that\u2019s what I want, and I\u2019m angry. I\u2019m angry at this cycle. I\u2019m angry at myself. I\u2019m angry that we can\u2019t be aligned. I\u2019m frustrated.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I hear that. You both hear that you\u2019re not aligned about why you want to make a change right now. Generational wealth, talking about it at 29, versus Jill\u2019s, like, \u201cWe got our whole lives ahead of us, the two of us, the four of us.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:53]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s the anxious. It\u2019s the worrying. What is going to happen at the end?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think what I\u2019m hearing from you, Frank, is I believe I\u2019ve lost the game for myself. If you\u2019ve lost the game, then Jill\u2019s simply going to be running uphill for the rest of her life alone because you\u2019re checked out. Do you believe that you\u2019ve lost the game for yourself and it\u2019s over?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:10]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0No. I think if I can fix my mistakes and change my behaviors, I can turn this around. I feel like the problems that I have, I have to handle those myself. Yes, we do make choices together, but sometimes she leans on me to make a choice and I make it, and it\u2019s not a good choice. And I have to change that so that we can have a better future.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jill, how you doing over there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:30]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0That hurts. That hurts to hear.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:36]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Because that\u2019s how it feels. That\u2019s how it\u2019s felt. And I didn\u2019t know why it felt that way. It didn\u2019t make sense. I felt alone. I felt like he\u2019s checked out. I felt like he\u2019s written it in the sand that there is no tomorrow. Why are we even planning it? Even when I asked, \u201cHey, can you figure out what your retirement is?\u201d It was like, I don\u2019t care. And to me, I\u2019m like, \u201cDon\u2019t you understand? That\u2019s what we\u2019re working towards. That\u2019s why we\u2019re working so hard.\u201d If he already feels like his life is over, then yeah, why would he be trying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m trying to think about how this has got to feel for you, Jill. In a way, it\u2019s like, oh, I finally understand why he\u2019s acting that way. But also, oh my God, is my husband at 29 years old, checked out?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:23]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0To me, I\u2019m like, there\u2019s so much to live for. We have these two beautiful kids. All of it just hit me like a brick wall, like, well, if he doesn\u2019t care to be here with me in this, then of course he\u2019s not going to care about how he parents or how he cares about how he treats the marriage or how he wants to spend time with me. Of course, he wouldn\u2019t want to spend time with me if he doesn\u2019t care. He\u2019s done. There\u2019s nothing here anymore.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes it\u2019s surprising the things that we hear on this show.\u00a0Hearing Jill say she doesn\u2019t think her husband cares anymore is incredibly devastating. But since she\u2019s repeatedly asked Frank to engage and he has shut her out,\u00a0I completely understand what she\u2019s saying. That would be painful for any of us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:12]\u00a0Of course, this points to something so much deeper than strictly their finances. This is why I always encourage my guests to speak to a therapist.\u00a0But this is also a classic example of how a crack in the foundation can bleed into so many parts of life,\u00a0including money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:31]\u00a0It\u2019s very easy to get to a place like this, especially with young kids at home, including one with special needs and an increasingly disconnected view of money.\u00a0It doesn\u2019t have to be like this. Yes, they\u2019re at a crossroads here, but I think they can make changes that will help them correct course.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:51]\u00a0If they are going to get aligned, they have to do it together. This disjointed way of everybody going to their own corner is not going to work.\u00a0And we will dig in after a quick pause to support our sponsors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:04]\u00a0Now\u00a0back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:06]\u00a0Let\u2019s see if I can help Jill and Frank find a way to work together as a team.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:10]\u00a0Do you all want to talk to each other right now? I feel like this is a really important moment for the two of you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:16]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I definitely feel like I care. I care more than I show. I tend to be reclusive in my behaviors. I tend to handle and fix things by myself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Frank, listen. You\u2019re not listening to your wife. You\u2019re definitely not listening to me. What did she say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:30]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0She says he feels like I\u2019m checked out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0She\u2019s not asking for you to give a 10-minute exposition on why you do this and that. What do you think she\u2019s looking for right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:39]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0An apology.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How about just accepting what she said and validating her? Wow, I can see why you feel that way. That\u2019s going to be so tough to feel alone. I am sorry.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:50]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I am. I am sorry. And it does hurt to see that you feel the way you\u2019re feeling, and I don\u2019t want you to feel that way. I want you to feel loved, and I want our kids to be happy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:01]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I hear him apologizing, and I still don\u2019t know if he understands what he is apologizing for.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:06]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Apologize for making you feel alone throughout this whole time, making you do it all by yourself and not being a part of the solution.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:13]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot to work through here. Some of it is not my specialty. I would like to talk about the numbers. I would like to talk about the money, and we\u2019ll talk about how that\u2019s affecting the two of you. How\u2019s that sound?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:28]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to take a look at your numbers because we\u2019ve just spent quite a bit of emotional energy talking about some pretty deep stuff\u2013 stuff that definitely needs to be explored in therapy. Let\u2019s take a look at the numbers, which will help ground us and see where you are today.\u00a0Jill, why don\u2019t you go ahead and read the word in bold and then the number in full next to it and just work your way down.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:51]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Assets are $341,109. Investments is $27,554. Savings is $42, and debt is $449,000.\u00a0For a total net worth of\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Total net worth?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:07]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Negative 80,861.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, just so everybody hears those numbers correctly, we have savings of $42.\u00a0That\u2019s the full amount, and then debt of $449,565. All right. What do y\u2019all think about these numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:25]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Not good. Yeah. I want the savings to be up so we have emergency funds, and I want our investments to get to the point where we\u2019re investing money so we can retire.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jill, how about you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:34]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I want to invest more. I want to save more. I want to get the debt paid off. I would like to see a positive toll on net worth. That\u2019d be wonderful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do y\u2019all see the connection between your behavior with money over the last 11 years and the net worth numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:53]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.\u00a0Let\u2019s go to down to income.\u00a0This time let\u2019s hear from Frank. Frank, what is the combined current monthly income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:02]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0$10,613.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.\u00a010.6k per month gross, which is gross income of $127,351 per year. Did you both know that\u2019s how much your household makes?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:17]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:17]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Good. Okay, great.\u00a0Now we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0work our way down the CSP going through four key numbers. What is this fixed cost number right here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:27]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0107%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your fixed costs are 107% of your net pay.\u00a0So that\u2019s it. That\u2019s the end. You\u2019re broke.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:35]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. This has been the conversation I\u2019ve been having,\u00a0is that we\u2019re not okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0107% means you\u2019re spending more than you make just on fixed costs every month alone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:46]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Let\u2019s just finish out and then we\u2019ll come back and do the line items.\u00a0Investments are at zero. You\u2019re putting $0 away.\u00a0Is there any 401K\u00a0or pre-tax money going away?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:57]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Not currently.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All\u00a0right.\u00a0So $0 going there.\u00a0Savings, almost zero, but it looks like you all put $300 a month away for Christmas.\u00a0Am I reading that correctly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:06]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, no, no, no. That was $300 flat.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like for this year coming up,\u00a0how much will you spend?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:12]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0300,\u00a0yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.\u00a0And then the last one, guilt-free spending says negative 12%. I know that\u2019s not true\u00a0because\u00a0when was the last time y\u2019all ate out?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:21]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Monday.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Out of\u00a0curiosity, where\u2019d you eat?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:23]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Firehouse\u00a0Subs<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:24]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How much total?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:26]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Everything,\u00a0including delivery,\u00a0I think it was 60 bucks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. According to the CSP, you spend negative $783 a month. How can that be?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:36]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:37]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We spend more than that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I know you do. The\u00a0answer is it\u2019s going on your credit cards.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:43]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it\u2019s owner draws,\u00a0and we\u2019re paying it with cash.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:46]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah,\u00a0the income on that sheet is her base salary. She makes more, but she keeps it in the business,\u00a0so that income is not accurate.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s with all these technicalities?\u00a0All\u00a0right. Maybe you\u2019re not putting on a credit card, but in the end,\u00a0are your credit card balances going up? Yes. Are you spending more at all on your credit cards right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:04]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You put\u00a0them\u00a0away?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:06]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.\u00a0We are trying our best every single chance we get to throw all the money at it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:12]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah,\u00a0yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I need to understand more about how you make money, Jill. You\u2019re a therapist. You get paid per session?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:20]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I\u2019m on salary. So I pay myself and then it fluctuates based off of people canceling or whatever, then I\u2019ll do owner draws.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You run your own business; is that correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:32]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can we just look at this? Which salary are you? Are you the higher or the lower salary.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:38]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The lower salary.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. 4,737 a month. Okay. So you\u2019re paying yourself $56,000 a year in base salary.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:45]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Cool. And then how much on average do you take in salary draws or any anything else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:51]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s between two to 4,000 additional each month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? That\u2019s a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:56]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s only been since the past two months because I increased my hours a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In order to make more money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:02]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And is this part of why you feel like you\u2019re not spending as much time with your kids and you\u2019re resentful of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:08]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I used to have everything built in, so I had time for my husband and time for the kids, and that\u2019s all gone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can we make the change right here and just see what happens?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:18]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re actually taking home, if we\u2019re going to be conservative, let\u2019s just say you\u2019re taking home 2,000 extra per month.\u00a0Watch what happens to this fixed cost number,\u00a0this percentage that currently says 107%.\u00a0Watch what happens when I increase your take home pay.\u00a0What\u2019d that number drop to?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:35]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a085.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:36]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0From 107 to 85%. What do y\u2019all think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:40]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s why I took on the hours.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Before we go line by line, do you all know why I recommend 50 to 60% for fixed costs?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:50]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0To live a \u200aRich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So your fixed costs are fixed. Every month you pretty much spend this amount. And if you wake up in the morning and you\u2019ve already got 60% of your money going somewhere, you still have 40% of it that can be distributed among savings, investments, and guilt-free spending. But let\u2019s say you wake up and in the morning you got 85% of your entire month\u2019s money already claimed by your fixed costs. What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:22]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We got to live with 15%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:24]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And what usually happens when people have to live with a very small amount?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:28]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We explode out because we\u2019re just wanting something more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You want more because you feel scarce, which is correct, especially the way you were both raised with money. You go, \u201cI don\u2019t want this feeling again. I\u2019m going to just spend money.\u201d You run up the credit card. But also, notice what\u2019s happening here. People who only have a little bit of money after their fixed cost claim at the majority, they don\u2019t save or invest any money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:49]\u00a0And they remain stuck in this cycle \u200abecause they cannot escape. The only way you escape your fixed costs is to invest and save aggressively. You\u2019ll never escape. Otherwise, you\u2019ll be doing this for the rest of your life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:02]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s the conversations that I wanted to start having, is the ability to start saving and investing so we\u2019re not constantly, like I said earlier, the hamster wheel.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, you\u2019re on the hamster wheel because your fixed costs are at 85%. No wonder you\u2019re stressed out. No wonder you\u2019re fighting. No wonder you\u2019re avoiding each other and not talking about money and can\u2019t even connect enough to fill out a spreadsheet knowing you\u2019re going to be here talking to me. It\u2019s that you have no money left over. And yet you\u2019re still going out to eat and still doing those things, knowing deep down, oh my God, we probably should not be doing this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:34]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You have trapped yourselves.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:36]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll finish reviewing their conscious spending plan\u00a0after this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:41]\u00a0Now back to Frank and Jill\u2019s conscious spending plan and their fixed costs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:45]\u00a0[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s go through them line by line. Your mortgage is not bad. It\u2019s 17%. That\u2019s quite low. So you got a very low\u00a0total payment relative to your income. That\u2019s great. Your car payment\u00a0is $750, alittle high for my taste, but okay. Not bad. It\u2019s fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:02]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s gas too. I didn\u2019t know where we should put the\u00a0gas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s good. That\u2019s how it should be.\u00a0Good job. Your debt payments are $1,571. And we know that\u2019s not the true number\u00a0because\u00a0your credit cards are about to kick in,\u00a0right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:15]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, the extra money that she owner draws, we try to put it all towards the debt payment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That can\u2019t be.\u00a0You told me you just went to Firehouse Subs or whatever and got a $60 meal.\u00a0Come on, let\u2019s get real. What are we talking about here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:25]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We really put a portion of it\u00a0towards\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much portion?\u00a0What percent?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:30]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a050%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re telling me you put\u00a0\u200a$1,000\u00a0a month towards your debt\u00a0extra?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:36]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We were at 32. We\u2019re down in two months to 24 now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh,\u00a0okay. I stand corrected. I apologize. That\u2019s impressive. Tell me the numbers again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:47]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We started at 32,\u00a0and then she\u2019s killing it,\u00a0and I\u2019m taking on other stuff at the house and we\u2019re trying to just do as much as we possibly can and now we\u2019re down to 25.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a032 to 25 in two months?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:00]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:01]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s been a long two months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold\u00a0on. Damn. Take the win. That\u2019s impressive. So you put effort towards this debt.\u00a0You prioritized it, you did it together, and you\u2019re getting amazing results.\u00a0This is promising.\u00a0All\u00a0right. Let\u2019s get back to it.\u00a0My eyes are open. So again, you have $1,571 in debt payments, but you are putting at least\u00a0\u200a$1,000\u00a0extra towards it every month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:26]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa. That\u2019s on top of 1,571.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:30]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we put 1,000 on\u00a0check and then\u00a01,000\u00a0the next check. We went down hard on this credit card.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love it. Let\u2019s keep moving. Groceries at $1,500 a month. What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:41]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We have allergy kids that are allergic to milks and stuff, so we have to buy specialty foods for the kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fair\u00a0enough. Y\u2019all have to shop very consciously for your kids. I get that. It\u2019s probably\u00a0going to\u00a0be more expensive regardless. I get that. Y\u2019all ever say no to your kids?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:57]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. He just wants everything in the store, and I say, \u201cNo, just pick two.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What about like, pick zero?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:05]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I can\u2019t. I feel horrible.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What are you teaching your kids when you do that, especially your older one?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:10]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0He can get what he wants when we go to the store.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. And what\u2019s going to happen as he gets older and he gets his first job and starts spending money? What\u2019s he going to do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:19]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0He gets what he wants.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What\u2019s going to happen when he has kids?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:23]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re going to get what they want.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No is love.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:26]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can be delivered lovingly. It can be delivered with a great lesson. Sometimes it can just be delivered with one syllable\u2013 no. But I will tell you that 100% of the couples I speak to in credit card debt struggle to say no to their kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:41]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You two are a statistic. I love being a statistic. It means I\u2019m like most people in most things. Amazing. If I\u2019m like most people in most things, that means I could probably use advice that most other people use in most things. If you two are like every other couple I\u2019ve spoken to in credit card debt who struggles to say no to their kids, how do you take that, and what might you do with that information?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:02]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Say no. You got to have boundaries.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:04]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0You got to fix the behavior.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whose behavior?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:06]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Our behavior.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, so you\u2019re saying fix your behavior first, model it, go through the same thing your kid is going through, learn how to modulate and talk and communicate about that. And then when you go to your kids, it\u2019s going to be that much easier because you, yourself, have regulated yourself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:26]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0[Sigh].<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s that sigh?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:27]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Hope.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It is? I never heard someone give a sigh of hope like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:32]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s relief. I don\u2019t think the way that you\u2019re thinking these things out for us. I don\u2019t think like this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, cool. I appreciate that you\u2019re receiving this well. That\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s as much as I could have hoped for. Fantastic. Let\u2019s keep going. I have a question about your mortgage. Does that include your property taxes?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:47]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, it does. Great. And maintenance? What about stuff you got to fix in your house? Where\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:52]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We had a home warranty that you just paid and they\u2019d come and fix your stuff. We just canceled this last month, and we\u2019re going to take all the money that we would\u2019ve used for that and put it into a savings account.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How come I don\u2019t see that in your savings?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:03]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We just did this two days ago. I didn\u2019t think consciously to update this file because I was like, what does it matter? But now I\u2019m thinking if I change something, I need to update the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Isn\u2019t that the theme of your behavior, what does it matter?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:18]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I\u2019m seeing that I think that way and I need to change that behavior.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And Jill, what is the theme of your financial behavior?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:25]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Give up when he gives up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why? You earn more than he does. Not to say that means you know more about money, but why would you put yourself in the passenger seat with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:34]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I was tired of fighting. I don\u2019t care anymore. I do want to change it because I know that this is my life too. And that\u2019s why every now and again, I say, \u201cNo, we got to do this.\u201d Because I know this is my life and this is our children\u2019s life and it\u2019s our life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sounds vague. What I\u2019m trying to do is to get you and you, Frank, to see if there\u2019s a reason why you would want to make vast, wide-ranging changes to the way that you think about money, behave with money, and feel about money. If you want to get out of this, you can, but it\u2019s going to require a massive lifestyle, psychological, relational shift, and I\u2019m trying to hunt for that. Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:15]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to be able to see my wife happy. I want to live a happy life with her and do the things that we want to do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jill?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:24]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I have a reason. I want to change because I want to be able to, one, not work for the rest of my life. Two, not always fear money, to be able to live freely with my husband and my children and to be anxiety free around money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What are you prepared to do in order to pay off your debt and build a healthy relationship with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:50]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Anything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Jill?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:53]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Anything it takes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Let\u2019s go back to the CSP. So what do we need to do on this CSP in order for you both to have at least a healthy conscious spending plan?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:04]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Lower our fixed cost to 50%.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s even say 60.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:09]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you want to do?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:12]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Groceries.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Tell me the number.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:14]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0800.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:15]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I thought you told me this whole story about we need to get butter and we got to go to the ends of the earth for this oil.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:22]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it is true if you want to go shopping, but it\u2019s not true if you want to meal prep and not buy so much processed food and start actually making it from simpler ingredients.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s happening right now? Hold on. What\u2019s in your cabinet and your fridge right now?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:36]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Usually what\u2019s in the fridge is 28 containers of meal prepped food with chicken, rice, and broccoli.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t believe that. This is [Bleep]. How do you spend $1,500 a month on chicken, rice, and broccoli? I know that diet.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:50]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Here\u2019s where it comes out. Frank, Amazon.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is anyone going to tell me the truth right now or what? I\u2019m fearful you\u2019re all running out of money in a few months. You have no savings. You have two kids. One of you loses your job, or frankly, if you just keep going the way you\u2019re going, it\u2019s over. That\u2019s it. You lose the house. I think I\u2019d like to see your Amazon account. Can you open it up?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:10]\u00a0There.\u00a0we go. All right, hold on. Let me just describe what I\u2019m seeing here. This is from a few days ago, five days ago. I see shampoo, some healing ointment, more shampoo, and then cutlery set, 360 pieces. We have a organic aluminum deodorant, cast iron care set, and a 10 inch cast iron skillet. This order was $77 and 87 cents. And then the next one was $126.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:44]\u00a0Let\u2019s go down a little bit more. This was also the same day. This is kids\u2019 body wash, hand soap, bamboo cutting board, bamboo tong, a bunch of soap and tongs and stuff. And this total was, $208. All right, this is all on the same day. Keep going down. This is just a few days prior. $52 for Elf on the Shelf. Paul Mitchell styling cream and volumizing foam for kids\u2019 hair.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:10]\u00a030 bucks. Similar day, more deodorant, and then 41 bucks for body wash, etc. Is there a total amount somewhere? 46 orders placed in the past three months? So that\u2019s interesting. I didn\u2019t see Amazon pop up in the spending.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:28]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I put it in the groceries.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what happened to all these stories about my kids need this and my kids need that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:33]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0It goes back to that health-conscious part, is we are trying to get away from these non-stick poisonous pans. That\u2019s the mentality of why we bought it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I ask you guys a direct question? Do you really believe this stuff?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:44]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I believe that what you can put in your body, it does matter.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fine. And how\u2019s both your health?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:49]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Our health is terrible. I think half of it\u2019s stress.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But maybe if we buy another 360-piece wood cutlery reset, that will change everything.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:59]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, pretty much.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I make jokes online about how a lot of these podcast bros, they would be better spent stopping spending all this money on these dumb mattresses and these ultraviolet light therapy, whatever stuff they do. Take 100 bucks a month, go out with a good friend to lunch two times a month. It would be better for them than any of these contraptions that they buy. Now, instead of buying these extremely expensive deodorants, etc., what might be better for your health?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:30]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Lowering our debt.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Why?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:32]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0To have more time to spend with our children so we could not have to worry about working to pay off the bamboo sticks.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not sitting here telling you like, don\u2019t buy this deodorant. That\u2019s not my place. It\u2019s not my money. But when I talk about living a \u200aRich Life, I have learned that some people misconstrue what I say. They take my advice and basically use it to twirl around and chant \u200aRich Life, \u200aRich Life, \u200aRich Life. And then they just buy whatever they want. That\u2019s not the message.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:56]\u00a0The message is you have to define your \u200aRich Life and then if you can afford it, go for it. But you got to be able to afford it. Y\u2019all cannot afford the lifestyle you\u2019re living. If you want to, we can talk about how you\u2019d both have to work more, raise your income significantly, pay off your debt, but the fact is you cannot afford it right now.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:16]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:17]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I knew that our problem was we\u2019re spending money that we don\u2019t have on things that we don\u2019t need, which then takes me back to your question earlier, which was like, what\u2019s my behavior that I need to change? Is the wants. It\u2019s gotten me in a lot of trouble. Most of my purchases are impulse purchases. And so it\u2019s in that moment, I have to have it. There\u2019s no way around it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can we look at your phone right now? Let\u2019s open up to texts. What texts are you getting from companies?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:43]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I have a Hungry Root, Nutrisystem that we did a long time ago. First day, which was vitamins for the kids. IFit, a hair product place, pump stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, there\u2019s a lot. And all that is in what time period?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:58]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Gosh, within the last day.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you see that you surround yourself with temptation? This stuff is designed to make you buy, and the fact is the two of you are not particularly good at having a vision of a \u200aRich Life, so you end up just buying whatever some freaking charlatan is telling you to. I can watch this stuff and I\u2019m not trying to buy some substandard lotion for my hands. I have one lotion.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:24]\u00a0It\u2019s good lotion. I buy the same lotion all the time. I don\u2019t need to try anything new. I know it works great. Now, let\u2019s talk about what we can do going forward. You told me in your CSP that you can cut some of this spending, this Amazon stuff?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:37]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like how much? I thought you need it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:41]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I would almost be okay with completely canceling it. We can buy toilet paper at the store.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:46]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We sure can.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that. So cancel Amazon Prime.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:49]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Or maybe Amazon altogether? It\u2019s up to you.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:53]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That would probably be really helpful. Amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:58]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh God, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s go ahead and go back into the CSP because you said you\u2019re willing to do anything.\u00a0So how much should we drop off of this\u00a0groceries\u2019\u00a0$1,500 bill?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:07]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we can get\u00a01,000.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:09]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Over time I think you could get it down more, but let\u2019s just say\u00a01,000.\u00a0All\u00a0right. Your fixed costs are still at 79%. We need to get that way lower. Go ahead. Tell me what else.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:18]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We don\u2019t need clothes\u00a0all the time.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:20]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Kids need shoes and they need clothes. They grow.\u00a0They have to get them. You might as well set yourself up for realistic prices.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was\u00a0the number?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:28]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a050.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else? We\u2019re at 78%.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:31]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The subscriptions, obviously.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me the number you want to take these subscriptions down to. Tell me what you\u2019re going to cut out of it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:38]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We can cut out maybe 200 of it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Subscriptions from 347 to how much?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:43]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0$52.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fantastic.\u00a0I\u00a0love it. The number went to 74%.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:48]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a lot. Still got to keep working. Keep going. What do you got? How much stuff are you willing to sell?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:54]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d sell everything in this room memorabilia. I\u2019d sell all my gaming systems. I would just keep my computer, maybe sell the monitor that\u2019s expensive and get a small monitor.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. How much can you make off of all that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:06]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d be lucky to get 1,000.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re willing to do it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:08]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, if I have to sell it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love it. You probably do if you want to get rid of this debt. The debt is increasing faster than you can keep up with it, and it\u2019s about to go turbo. You know what those credit card interest rates are about to kick in. You\u2019ll never catch up. So \u200a$1,000 there. Great. How about you, Jill? What are you willing to sell?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:25]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I sell everything, man. I sell this whole house. I don\u2019t care where we go. I don\u2019t want to be in debt. Sell it all.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much could you make if you sold the house?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:33]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0After everybody gets their cut and said, maybe we\u2019ll get lucky and get 60.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But what\u2019s the lowest amount that you could pay for a place that the two of you would agree to live in?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:41]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I think at best, $1,600. We could find a two bedroom, maybe a three bedroom for 1,800.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you sold the house for 80, you end up making 65, let\u2019s just say. All right. So 65. What do you do with that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:55]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Pay off the car and maybe the credit card debt, but it wouldn\u2019t pay off the student loans.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know your interest rate on your student loans?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:01]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re all around six to 7%.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019s the total balance?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:06]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0165.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, that\u2019s fine. Frank, what\u2019s your opportunity to earn more money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:12]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0If I wanted to work all the time and be gone, I could probably make 120 a year<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, that\u2019s good to know. All right. Here\u2019s what I\u2019m thinking. The first thing I love is that you\u2019re all willing to put everything on the table. I love that. A lot of couples are not, but you two are actually telling the truth when you say we\u2019re willing to do anything. And I can see that. I appreciate that. Frank, you\u2019re willing to sell a bunch of stuff. Sell it. Get rid of it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:38]\u00a0First of all, that\u2019ll simplify your life. Less stuff means less temptation to get more stuff. We\u2019re living a monastic life for a while. It\u2019s going to be very simple in here. You all should pay off your credit card debt before the interest rate goes up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:51]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s been our goal.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So do that. Use the money accordingly. But it all goes towards paying off debt. Jill, we heard you say you will sell it all, but first I want to know in the house. This stuff that you\u2019re buying is, again, causing you to buy more stuff. It\u2019s a never-ending cycle of the American homeowner to fill up their house and never be happy and always be stressed. What could you make if you sold a bunch of stuff in your house?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:16]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably $3,000 easily.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a03,000? That\u2019s a lot. Is that a realistic number?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:21]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I have a bike in that closet that I do not use.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much is the bike?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:26]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s like two grand maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Americans love expensive mattresses. They love them and then they love expensive bikes. And both of them, they tell me, \u201cI cannot live without these, Ramit.\u201d You cannot spend less on a mattress because it\u2019s all about back pain and affordability is irrelevant. Same with a bike. And it\u2019s always thousands of dollars. All right. Sell that freaking thing. What else do you have that you don\u2019t use or you even do use and you can sell it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:53]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s a treadmill that\u2019s underneath this bed.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Goodbye.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:57]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I can go down to one monitor.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:00]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The gaming systems that I haven\u2019t even used in years, we don\u2019t need those.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Sell them or donate them, goodbye. They\u2019re out. We don\u2019t need all this junk surrounding us. It\u2019s not for us. It\u2019s not part of our \u200aRich Life. 3,000 bucks plus 1,000 over there, that\u2019s 4,000 bucks. I like it. I like it. That\u2019s really good. Okay, great. And then the reason I asked about the housing was, if I\u2019m looking at your housing, I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a good idea to sell your house or not. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:28]\u00a0The reason I\u2019m saying that is, yeah, of course, you\u2019d make some money and you would be able to clear out some debt, which is great. But right now you have probably a very low interest rate. Your housing percentage is pretty low, 17%. I want to know that you can find a place that is cheaper than this because right now, at least your mortgage is locked<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:50]\u00a0But if you\u2019re renting, for example, let\u2019s say right now your mortgage, housing costs, are 2,600 a month, is my guess, total. So if you found something that was 2,500 a month, I would be like, \u201cDon\u2019t do that.\u201d Why would you take on all that risk to save 200 bucks a month? It makes no sense. But if you found something for, say, 1,200 a month, boy, you\u2019re saving a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:10]\u00a0And you would be taking that difference and paying off debt, investing it, doing all of those things. So this is the way we got to think about housing decisions. What\u2019s going on? What do you both think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:22]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m thinking, how are we going to make that work with our jobs? That\u2019s my first thought. And then my second thought is our kids, having a backyard, having a consistent school district.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How about having parents that don\u2019t go bankrupt?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:32]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We put so much pride in being able to buy our first home, but we\u2019re just one really bad repair away. From this being just another issue that we can\u2019t afford.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You too can keep the house if you want. You have to make other changes in order to make it feasible.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:49]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a very good housing percentage, 17%. Way lower than 28%. It\u2019s just that the rest of your costs are way too high. So you either need to cut some of this stuff, or you need to figure out a way to make a lot more money. But you can\u2019t do all these things, not on your income.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:04]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Well, I love that Frank and Jill are open to making changes, like selling their house. It tells me they\u2019re actually serious about getting out of this cycle.\u00a0But I\u2019m not sure that selling their house is the best idea. That\u2019s right,\u00a0everybody,\u00a0especially internet trolls online.\u00a0Ramit Sethi, the person who you have claimed is totally against home ownership, which is a\u00a0[Bleep]\u00a0lie is saying it might not make sense to sell your house.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:30]\u00a0The truth, of course, is that I\u2019m not against buying a house. In fact, someday I\u2019m sure I will buy a house. What I ask you to do is to run the numbers on the biggest purchase of your life, which in any normal world, should not be controversial advice. It is only in our highly weird puritanical society where our one and only one religion is home ownership, that people rebel against the mere suggestion that you should run one calculation before you spend hundreds of thousands of dollars.\u00a0What\u00a0[Bleep]\u00a0world am I living in?<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:02]\u00a0Anyway, Frank and Jill, good job, but I don\u2019t know if you should sell the house. What they need to do is run the numbers and find out if it would make sense for them to sell the house, because they could save a substantial amount by renting. Now, if you have questions about whether you can afford to buy a house or you should rent, I\u2019ve got a free house buying guide for you.\u00a0Go to iwt.com\/house,\u00a0and you will find it there.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:26]\u00a0Now, the other option Jill and Frank have is to increase their income. Listen in as I ask them about their earning potential.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s talk about the income side right now. Jill, you\u2019re making 6,700 bucks a month, including that draw. This is your own business. How much are you charging?<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:42]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I charge 150 per session, but I have no out-of-pocket people. Most of them are insurance. And insurance sets the rate that you get paid.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can you raise your rate?<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:54]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0No, not with insurance. I\u2019ve thought about working in Charlotte, where I could charge out of pocket because there\u2019s city folks and people who are able to pay that amount. But then it\u2019s a commute.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what\u2019s the solution?<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:08]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0The option that I\u2019ve always gone to is just that I work more hours, which has been really difficult on me anyway. To me, I feel like I\u2019ve maxed myself out on my options, and the kids are already struggling with me not being around. I literally see my one son for an hour a day and I literally see my infant to put to bed.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This is really hard.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:37]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0It is hard, but I also am angry at myself because I know I did it to myself.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:45]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We did it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t believe that there are no options. I don\u2019t believe that the two of you are stuck and this is it in your late 20s and early 30s. I don\u2019t believe that. That\u2019s sometime the benefit of talking to a third party, somebody who\u2019s not in the weeds. You knocked out $5,000 of debt in the last couple of months. I think that\u2019s pretty impressive.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:08]\u00a0We looked at the Amazon spending. Not only did you agree that you don\u2019t need a lot of this stuff, you actually told me you want to close off your Amazon account. Amazing. You agreed to sell thousands of dollars worth of stuff. That\u2019s going to go straight to your debt. Amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:22]\u00a0We\u2019re making progress. It feels hard because it is. We\u2019re in some of the hardest parts of this transformation right now. But this is stuff that really matters. And it matters because it\u2019s big numbers and it matters because it\u2019s time with your family. Jill, have you ever considered how much you might make if you worked for somebody else?<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:41]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I used to work for someone else. I made less.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now you make approximately $80,000 a year when we include those owner draws. Is this it for your career, is the max income?<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:51]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want it to be. If I find an ability to work in Charlotte, then I could make more income. That\u2019s something that we\u2019ve avoided for a really long time.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If your salary is capped out at 80k, okay. Then we will accept that and then we will shift over to Frank and then Frank needs to make a lot more money. And Frank might need to travel, and that\u2019s how it has to be. But right now I feel like I\u2019m pulling teeth. I\u2019m trying to get you all to give me solutions. You need to get these numbers down. You need to pay off your debt. You need to start saving and investing aggressively. It needs to happen right now. How do you want to do it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:25]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We struggle with finding those solutions because we haven\u2019t had the people in our life to teach us about these things and give us any guidance, and we haven\u2019t been able to find that information ourselves.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I appreciate that, but Jill, you had your grandfather talking about investing when you were young. And how did you describe your reaction to him?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:48]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0In one ear and out the other.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Correct. You both subscribed to my Money Coaching program. It\u2019s very accessible. It\u2019s very friendly. I\u2019m there answering questions live. Did you finish it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:00]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So while I appreciate that you may not have the network that some other people have, you all have the information available to you. It\u2019s free. It\u2019s premium. It\u2019s everywhere. It\u2019s not about the information. It\u2019s about you two.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:15]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s fair.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re at 74%. Got to get this number down. You just cannot have a sustainable life with your fixed cost that high.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:23]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We might need to downsize the house. There\u2019s all those shadow costs. We might need to go to something smaller.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:29]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That could certainly change things in a huge way. You would need to be measured about the decision because, again, your housing costs are not out of control, but your other costs are high. And so if you wanted to downsize, you would need to make sure that you accounted for all costs, ow much would you walk away with, how much would it cost to move, how much would it cost to get a new place set up and activated and all that stuff, first month\u2019s rent, last month\u2019s rent, lots of those considerations. And would you be saving enough on a monthly basis so that in one year, two years, it would be worth it? And then from then on it would be much more worth it. You would need to be very thoughtful about those calculations. It\u2019s not something to do on a whim.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:14]\u00a0Here\u2019s my suggestion. You need to earn more money, and I think that you need to drop the assumptions about I can\u2019t work more. I can\u2019t charge more. I can\u2019t do this in Charlotte. Find a way. When my parents were growing up and they had big family, not a lot of money, they\u2019re just very pragmatic about this. Like, we\u2019re going to find a way to do it. We\u2019re not eating out. We\u2019re not doing this. We\u2019re going to do that. And that\u2019s the way it is. That is our family culture. Look at this.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:39]\u00a0In this book, the new one, I talk about how to create a family culture. In our family we\u2013 what? My wife and I, we are debt free. We are a debt-free family. Or in our family, we always eat dinner together on Friday nights with the kids, whatever it may be. In your family, what\u2019s the culture that you\u2019ve created?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:02]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re workaholics<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re workaholics, we are stressed out in poor health, and we buy stuff to feel better about our dire situation. Fair?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:12]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And we also don\u2019t communicate with each other.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:15]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. In our healthy relationship, what do we do?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:19]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Communicate about finances.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How often?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:23]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0At least every month.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How are you going to do that? There was this whole thing about the kids. How are you going to do that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:27]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re going to make it happen with the kids.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, great.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:31]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0One kid has to sit near, by us, while we do it. That has to be how it\u2019s done.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:35]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe include him into the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love it. What\u2019s next?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:39]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We write down things before we buy them.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love it. What about the food thing? You\u2019re all dropping your food costs dramatically. How are you going to do that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:46]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0We need to start shopping store brand products.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:49]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We cook our meals.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The whole thing about like, we buy all this organic stuff, the fact is you just can\u2019t afford it. I\u2019m sorry. If you want to afford it, move into a one-bedroom apartment and then you can buy all the fancy stuff you want. That\u2019s up to you. It\u2019s your choice, your money, but you can\u2019t do both.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:02]\u00a0So it would be very worthwhile for the two of you to really define, in our family, we blank. You can always change it. You can always add or remove, but right now there is no we. And sometimes if somebody slips, they try something. You just go, \u201cHey, look, I thought we agreed. This is our family.\u201d You don\u2019t have to come down on them. It\u2019s just like, hey, just a reminder. This is what we agreed on. I want to make sure that we\u2019re both sticking to it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:24]\u00a0Sometimes I need help, but right now it seems like you want to go out to pizza tonight, but in our family, we only spend on whatever. 800 bucks a month for groceries. Boom. Okay, cool. Back to this, let\u2019s talk about the earning part, the last part of it. The earning needs to go up. It\u2019s just that simple. Frank, when was the last time you looked for a new job?<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:44]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Two years. I tried the two-year cycle approach. I\u2019ve been slowly, steadily increasing over two years I\u2019ll look and seek for new positions.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how much can you get paid today?<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:54]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0If I take a job that\u2019s no longer remote, I could make a lot more, 50,000 more a year.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you had to commute.<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:00]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I have a CDL class A license. I could become a truck driver.<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Here\u2019s how I would approach that conversation. So I would start off by saying, let\u2019s talk about, look, I have this amazing opportunity. If I wanted to, I could make $50,000 more. First off, can we just give each other a high five that we even have this opportunity? That\u2019s amazing that we even have that. High five. I love you. Oh my gosh, we\u2019re so fortunate. Then can we talk about what would happen if I did this? Let\u2019s first start with all the positives. What would we get?<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:30]\u00a0Let\u2019s redo the CSP. I would type in adapted numbers. You would see things go insane. The numbers would come way down. You would have thousands of dollars extra you could save, invest. All that. Let\u2019s talk about what it would mean for us. Positive stuff. Well, we\u2019d have more money and we could have some help, etc.\u00a0All that stuff is great. We stayed there. We focused on the positive. Now, let\u2019s go to the negative. Well, what would it mean?<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:54]\u00a0It would mean time away. It would mean you would have to take on more burden, Jill. Jill\u2019s like, I don\u2019t want to do that. And so it would mean this, and it would mean that, and we\u2019re apart. And you write it all down. And you sit on it for a day and you come back and you talk about it. You take another crack at it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:08]\u00a0Here\u2019s what I\u2019m thinking. I definitely think we need to make more money, but I don\u2019t want you to be on the road that much. Is there something else we could do? Or, you know what? I think this is a really good idea for the next two years. Two years, extra 50k, it puts us in a position. We pay this off. We do it aggressively. We get on our feet and then we can switch to something else. Who knows? That\u2019s how I would have that conversation. What do you notice about that approach?<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:31]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Thought out, and you were waiting on the decision.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:34]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re working together.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Both of you have a voice. This is a decision for both of you. It affects the two of you. It affects your kids. It affects your relationship. But we got to start with all the positive stuff. That\u2019s the thing I noticed. It\u2019s not just everyone going to their corner of the ring and then boxing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:50]\u00a0It\u2019s like, no, let\u2019s be methodical about this. Treat it with the respected deserves. Similarly for you, Jill, your role, your income, you\u2019re a therapist. You have options. Maybe there\u2019s a commute involved. Who knows? Maybe you move cities. Who knows? The fact is right now though, it\u2019s not sustainable. You two cannot operate on $162 a month in guilt-free spending. No way.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:11]\u00a0You\u2019re spending 10 times that right now. You have no savings. The minute something breaks in your house or something goes wrong with your car, you two are in big trouble. So the biggest suggestion I have is you immediately start saving at least \u200a$1,000 a month. But the truth is you need to make some big changes fast. It\u2019s as simple as that. How are you both feeling hearing this?<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:31]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s hard information. It\u2019s information we knew. It\u2019s information that we didn\u2019t want to look at, that we couldn\u2019t have an open dialogue for longer than a few moments. So I think that\u2019s progress, to even be able to sit down and have this conversation. And us both still be sitting here, that\u2019s a plus. I feel like we\u2019re actually going to be able to move through this and get on the other side of this and feel like we have a life to live.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love that. Frank?<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:58]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0The choices that we\u2019re doing are only hurting ourselves. We are the thorn to our own financial problems, and we need to stop doing these things to us, and we need to come together and make time for each other and make time for our money. And we need to get this ball moving quickly.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that. Time is not on your side, but if you start to use time, it can become your biggest friend, not your biggest adversary. Look at this. Here\u2019s your investment. It\u2019s $27,554. You\u2019re not contributing anything else right now. Let\u2019s say we give it 35 years to grow. You end up with $294,000. That\u2019s at retirement. What do y\u2019all think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:42]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Not enough.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:43]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s not enough. We ain\u2019t retiring.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That means you would live off about $11,000 per year.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:49]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Good luck. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good news is you have a house, but nobody can live off $11,000 a year, certainly not 35 years from now.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:55]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s what I was afraid of.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes the best thing we can do with our fears is shine a light on them and look them straight in the eye. This is our future unless we make a change. So you two have digested a lot. We have talked about your childhood. We\u2019ve talked about your relationship, talked about your careers, your income, your spending, even the stories you tell yourselves and you tried to tell me. What are you going to do tomorrow?<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:20]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Have a conversation, a real conversation, and reframe our thinking.<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love that. Then what?<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:26]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Change how we spend. I think having physical cash to limit us will be a good way to handle this.<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good idea. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:36]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe instead of doing the drastic approach of changing careers, I try to go to the next step in my career. Maybe I look for a promotion.<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Map it out. Talk to the boss. Many options on the table. You\u2019re doing two things at once. They\u2019re so powerful. One is you\u2019re moving fast. Get those things on Facebook. Start using cash. And then two is you are zooming out out of this dark, never-ending tunnel that you described to me at the beginning of our call, Frank.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:01]\u00a0And what you\u2019ve done is you\u2019ve stopped the sliding down and you said, \u201cWait a second. I don\u2019t want to go down there anymore. Sucks down here. I\u2019m pausing. I\u2019m looking around with my flashlight. What are my options? Because I\u2019m making my way back, back to the light. That\u2019s where I\u2019m going.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:15]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:15]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Agreed.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:16]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0When we do make those big changes, what does it look like in terms of our retirement and savings?<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a great question. Let\u2019s say that you sold the house and you took $10,000 of that money and invested just that $10,000. Let\u2019s see what would happen. So that used to be 27. We\u2019ll make it 37. Watch this number right here. Instead of 294, it turns into 400,000. So that $10,000 turned into over $100,000 increase. Y\u2019all see the power of that? Now imagine we keep that, it\u2019s at 400, but we do $12,000 a year or $1,000 a month invested. Look at what happens here. $2.1 million.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:01]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did you notice?<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:03]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s feasible. If we can climb out of this and be regimented, we could actually retire. We could actually have a life to live.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. This is why I was getting a little aggravated when we were spending five minutes talking about some 10-dollar subscription, and I was like, \u201cWe can\u2019t be doing this.\u201d These are the numbers that matter. $10 is a waste of life for you two to be focusing on. Remember I talk about 30,000-dollar questions. Here it is. This is what I would be starting with as a couple. We are going to be investing \u200a$1,000 a month. We make $150,000 a year. We could find $12,000 a year to invest.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:39]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:27:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And if we can\u2019t find 12,000, we\u2019ll start with 5,000. And as we make more, we\u2019ll increase that number. That\u2019s so powerful. On the other hand, you could end up changing nothing. You could end up perpetuating the same cycle that both of you grew up with, doing the same thing. Teaching your kids this, doing these games about, oh, let\u2019s just tell them to save, but we don\u2019t save. Let\u2019s buy them everything, not teaching them any restraint. And then you all end up without a lot of money and then your kids end up without a lot of money and it goes on. I don\u2019t want that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:06]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Agreed.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:07]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We don\u2019t want that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, what should I expect six months from now?<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:14]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Downsizing in some capacity.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:18]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0I have three desks in my office. I don\u2019t need this stuff. I don\u2019t need all this stuff. This stuff doesn\u2019t feel good anymore. It just feels like\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:26]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0A burden.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:26]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0There goes two months of retirement right there.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Look at that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:28]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. I love that. So you\u2019re going to have a simpler life. So that means stuff in your house, your room is going to look simpler.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:36]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Gone.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love it. Beautiful. Okay, great. And what else?<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:40]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we need to make career changes, whatever that looks like. If that looks like me trying to do private pay, I have never tried. I\u2019ve been too afraid to try.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:50]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, career advancements. That\u2019s a great point.<\/p>\n<p>[01:28:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Amazing. The two of you are so young. If you both decided together we are changing the way that we live, it is going to be a journey. It\u2019s going to be a tough journey. But the best part is you get to do it together. You could get out of this, change the trajectory of your life, and you could do it in two to three years. It\u2019ll be magical. You are at that point, still in your 30s, young, and then you have wind behind you pushing you forward together for the rest of your \u200aRich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[01:29:27]\u00a0Every stage, learning. Oh my god. This is what we want to do with our money. Now we have a little bit of extra. We paid off our debt. We\u2019ve taught our kids how to be responsible. They\u2019re all learning with us. We have a family culture of money. We\u2019re having fun. We\u2019re being super responsible. We\u2019re investing aggressively. We actually like talking about money, and we are living our \u200aRich Life together. That\u2019s what I see.<\/p>\n<p>[01:29:49]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0That would feel amazing. I want that. Yeah. Yes, yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:29:53]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0100%.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:29:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u00a0want to\u00a0thank Jill and Frank for being so open today. Being stuck in this cycle of debt sucks. It\u2019s heavy. It feels like there\u2019s no light at the end of the tunnel. And at a certain point, many people just give up.\u00a0They tell themselves, this is how we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0live. We\u2019ve always been in debt.\u00a0We\u2019re always\u00a0going to\u00a0be in debt. But it does not have to be that way.<\/p>\n<p>[01:30:15]\u00a0They\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0have to make some big changes to get out of this cycle and\u00a0they say they\u2019re up for it.\u00a0But as you\u2019ve seen on this podcast, almost everybody says they\u00a0want to\u00a0make big changes. Only some people follow through, and that is what we get to see right now. Let\u2019s check out their follow-ups. We will start with Frank.<\/p>\n<p>[01:30:36]\u00a0<strong>Frank:<\/strong>\u00a0One of the biggest surprises that I took from that call was just about how much we lied to ourselves about the reasons why we\u2019re in this situation. It seems that we have memorized some excuse as to why we\u2019re in this situation, but in reality, we\u2019re in it because of our own choices. So that was a reality check.<\/p>\n<p>[01:30:53]\u00a0My biggest takeaway is to make time about our finances and how to talk about them and not give up and just stay focused on our long-term goals, our retirement, our savings, and getting our debt paid down.\u00a0And speaking of our debt being paid down, we chose to cut out Amazon completely.\u00a0We meant what we said.\u00a0We also are\u00a0going to\u00a0start using cash.<\/p>\n<p>[01:31:13]\u00a0It\u2019s easier to spend stuff when you\u2019re using a card. So\u00a0that\u2019s how we\u2019re going to create a better household around money, just being focused and having those open conversations. So thanks again to your team for showing us what we can do better as a family.<\/p>\n<p>[01:31:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now Jill\u2019s follow-up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:31:28]\u00a0<strong>Jill:<\/strong>\u00a0What really stuck with us is just being able to have good dialogue and conversation about our finances and not avoiding the problem. We\u2019ve been doing a lot better with having a lot of conversations. We went ahead and finished the Money Coaching program and have started our automated system, which we\u2019re getting used to. It\u2019s a hard adjustment, but we\u2019re very, very excited to actually sit back and allow our money to work for us rather than us worrying about our money all the time.<\/p>\n<p>[01:31:58]\u00a0We are looking into selling our home and going to be renting for a little bit, which is going to be a big shift, but we are very excited about what\u2019s to come and being able to actually afford the things that we want to afford, which is going on vacations and trips with our family and having more time together as a family. That\u2019s really what we\u2019re hopeful for.<\/p>\n<p>[01:32:16]\u00a0So we have some big things in the mix of just life changes. And already have paid off two credit cards, which we were very happy. We paid off a personal loan in one of our credit cards, and that was great too. So we\u2019re making good progress. Thanks.<\/p>\n<p>[01:32:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly,\u00a0amazing. Amazing. Yes,\u00a0I love all the tactical changes they made. I love how quickly they moved. I love all of that.\u00a0But\u00a0what I really love is how they started to look at money differently. And when you start to look at money differently, when you radically reconceptualize your relationship with money, you\u2019ll often find that you reconceptualize your relationship with the people you love.\u00a0Jill and Frank, I\u2019m very proud of you. Thank you for sharing your story,\u00a0and please keep me updated.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Frank (29) and Jill (33) are parents of two young kids and are trapped in a vicious cycle of overspending and debt. With fixed costs eating up 107% of their income and $25,000 in credit card debt, they\u2019ve been repeatedly digging themselves into a hole\u2014and scrambling to climb back out. Frank solves panic with credit [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118825","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118825","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118825"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118825\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118825"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118825"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}