{"id":118833,"date":"2025-01-14T20:19:41","date_gmt":"2025-01-15T00:19:41","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118833"},"modified":"2026-02-18T15:45:25","modified_gmt":"2026-02-18T19:45:25","slug":"191-dillon-carrie","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/191-dillon-carrie\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 191. \u201cMy wife doesn&#8217;t respect me because she earns 5x more\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cMy wife doesn't respect me because she earns 5x more\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/A9LFZqvj2R4\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/6TVO4DDEOF0Up8pdwLf9xY?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Dillon (30) and Carrie (29) are navigating a tricky dynamic in their relationship: income disparity. Carrie works in tech, earning a high salary, but her anxiety about money has her constantly second-guessing their financial situation. Dillon, a PhD student living on a $40K annual stipend, is growing increasingly frustrated with Carrie\u2019s dismissive comments and her inability to see their combined income as a strength. The tension is mounting, and it\u2019s spilling over into their future plans. Can Carrie improve her money psychology so they can live a happier, rich life together?<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions \u2013 and manage your expenses the easy way \u2013 by going to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Fabric by Gerber Life | Protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. Apply today in just 10 minutes at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Links mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/iwt.com\/booktour\">Get tickets to Money for Couples LIVE coming to a city near you in January<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0On today\u2019s episode, meet Dillon and Carrie.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:04]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I like how I feel about money. I personally wish that you could feel more relaxed about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:12]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I tend to blow things out of proportion or leap to a bigger problem.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dillon is 30, Carrie is 29, and they are struggling with their disparity in income.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:27]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like if I made more money, Carrie\u2019s stress and pressure would go away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Carrie works in tech. She earns a very high income, but she\u2019s constantly worried about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:38]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I wouldn\u2019t know what being relaxed or confident about money even looks like. The worrying just really comes naturally to me. I find comfort in looking down the road a little bit and seeing potential problems.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dillon is a PhD student. He earns a $40,000 annual stipend and he\u2019s frustrated by Carrie\u2019s belittling comments.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:04]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I have said that I\u2019m the breadwinner and he\u2019s my housewife.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And her inability to see their combined income in a positive light.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:13]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we\u2019d just be happier if we did feel like we made over 200k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Carrie\u2019s view of finances is so negative that it\u2019s causing her to drag her feet on taking a bucket list vacation that they\u2019ve been planning for years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:28]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0When we talk about doing something that is relatively affordable, given how much money we have, like going to Japan, it\u2019s like yes and then no and then yes and then no because she\u2019s constantly worrying about the future.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can Carrie improve her money psychology so they can live a happier, richer life together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:49]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve always felt that way about money. I have to actively work to not feel that way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s meet Dillon and Carrie.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:58]\u00a0I\u00a0want to\u00a0say thank you to Amazon Music for selecting\u00a0Money for\u00a0Couples as a\u00a0New\u00a0Year,\u00a0New\u00a0You featured show. And here\u2019s a reminder that you can listen to Money for Couples episodes every week on Amazon Music or ask Alexa,\u00a0\u201cAlexa, play Money for Couples with Ramit Sethi on Amazon Music.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:19]\u00a0Okay, I have\u00a0Dillon\u00a0and Carrie\u2019s conscious spending plan in front of me. I\u2019m getting ready for our conversation. Let\u2019s take a look at what I noticed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:26]\u00a0Dillon and Carrie, conscious spending plan. All right, let\u2019s take a look. This is a young couple, I think 29 and 30 years old. $415,000 in assets, probably a house. Investments, $341,000 at that age? Very impressive. Saving, 23,000, a little low relative to the others, but okay. Debt\u2019s 353 for a total net worth of 426.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:54]\u00a0Very impressive already. Let\u2019s take a look at the income. Gross monthly income\u2013 whoa. Okay, so one partner earns a lot more than the other one, like more than five times more. We have one person earning 3,000 bucks a month. The other earns $16,000 a month. Maybe one of them is in school. Could be. That would be my guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:19]\u00a0Although at 29\u2013 maybe grad school total. Household income, $236,000. That\u2019s a lot of money. Okay, let\u2019s take a look. So total household income, $236,000. Overall, great income. I\u2019m thinking about why savings is kind of low. It doesn\u2019t really particularly bother me, but I would probably have that number higher.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:47]\u00a0Fine. Fixed cost are at 33%. Okay. That\u2019s one of the lowest numbers I\u2019ve ever seen here. They have mortgage. I mean that, what do I care? All this is very affordable. If you\u2019re at 33%, you can do whatever you want. You got room to spare. By having a really low fixed cost, in part because they have a really high income, that allows them to have a lot of money to be able to put in different places.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:16]\u00a0So I\u2019m curious to see where they put it. Investments. Well, there you go. 28% of net. That\u2019s good. That\u2019s great. When you have a really high income and\/or low fixed costs, you want your investment rate to go way up. That\u2019s because the price of bread doesn\u2019t change whether you make $50,000 or $500,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:38]\u00a0Therefore, there\u2019s somewhat of a natural cap on your fixed costs. Netflix costs the same for everybody, therefore, the higher your income goes it becomes almost super linear, meaning your fixed costs become proportionally lower and therefore you have extra money. So it\u2019s your choice, but you should almost certainly be putting more money in your investments because you can afford to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:01]\u00a0You should probably also be spending more on guilt-free spending, but you should definitely be investing more aggressively, which they are. All right. Yeah, they\u2019re putting a lot of money away. Wow. Good job. Savings are\u2013 whoa\u2013 also at 28%. So basically they\u2019re just putting away a ton of money. Great. They could do this for a few years and then they\u2019ll be set.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:23]\u00a0They could ease off what they call coast and then let that money just compound and grow, and they could actually start to spend more, which brings me to a concern I have. Are they actually spending on guilt free money? Let\u2019s take a look. Yeah, that\u2019s what I thought. Okay. So by spending so aggressively in savings and investments, meaning putting that money away, I wanted to see if they have a healthy amount of spend, and it\u2019s pretty low. It\u2019s pretty low. I was wondering like, why are we here? What am I going to talk to them about? And my guess is that they have an inability to spend. 11% is low for having a $236,000 income. You know, I talk about 20 to 35%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:08]\u00a0They could easily afford any of that. They\u2019ve chosen. To over index on saving and investing, which I totally respect, but 11% is unusually low. Okay, let\u2019s take a look. They have travel, gifts and donations, eating out in bars. I almost wonder if I even believe this. If anything, I suspect they\u2019re actually spending less on these things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:31]\u00a0That\u2019s just a gut feel because people who have their numbers in this way super heavily, aggressively invest in saving. They tend to not be able to bring themselves to spend, and that means even if they tried to ease off of their saving and investing five or 10 years from now, they probably wouldn\u2019t be able to spend. So that\u2019s my guess what we\u2019re gonna talk about, but never know until I meet them.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:54]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Carrie has a lot of fear around money. We had been talking about a trip to Japan and we were in the car together, and I mentioned the trip to Carrie and she was like, \u201cI don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t think we have enough money to do it. \u201d My wife makes a lot more than me and puts a burden on me at home. She feels like I\u2019m not contributing as much. It makes me feel bad about myself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:21]\u00a0And we have a lot of money, but when we talk about doing something that is relatively affordable, given how much money we have, like going to Japan, it\u2019s like yes and then no and then yes and then no because she\u2019s constantly worrying about the future. I can say here\u2019s what the numbers seem like they\u2019ll look like when we\u2019re 60, but it doesn\u2019t really help with that feeling. And in the end I was like, \u201cLet me just apply it to Ramit.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So who was the one who brought up the idea of taking a trip there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:54]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve had this goal for probably four years now with the goal of having kids in mind, a last really big hurrah of we\u2019re going to do something really indulgent and an extravagant trip that we don\u2019t think we could do otherwise with a kid. Knock that off the bucket list before we really settle in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, sounds good. So what about the money part of it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:21]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0We save for a travel fund every month, but we celebrated our one-year wedding anniversary this summer, so we spent a decent portion of that, but mostly we had a really large expense this year of renovating our kitchen and had to take from our travel fund to be able to finish paying that. So left us in a position that we don\u2019t have as much as we would\u2019ve otherwise in the travel fund.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can you afford the trip to Japan, or no?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:47]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now we don\u2019t have the money to do it. May is when we\u2019re shooting to go. I think we can by May.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You\u2019re waiting a few months to go to Japan. What\u2019s a big deal?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:00]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think more balancing that cost with how we would use the money otherwise.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much does this trip, by the way?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:10]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve talked about budgeting 10 to $15,000 for this trip.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a015k. You\u2019re going to save up for a few months for it. Sounds good to me. What\u2019s the argument?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:19]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0House expenses.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Should we spend 15k on something to renovate the house with, or should we take this trip to Japan? Is that the conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:28]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. So how do you go about making a decision like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:31]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m more of the worrier. How do we justify the trip to Japan when we need to make sure that our house is clean and safe and livable and healthy for us to be in? And those are expensive things to ensure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then, Dillon, what about you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:50]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0From my perspective, it\u2019s like we both have a conversation where we both say we have enough money to go to Japan. And then I\u2019ll bring it up a couple of months later, like, \u201cOh, what month should we go to Japan?\u201d But she\u2019ll say like, \u201cWell, what about all the lead paint we have in our windows? Before we have a kid, we\u2019re going to need to get our windows renovated.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:10]\u00a0It never occurred to me we need new windows to have a kid. But I want the house to be so that Carrie feels like this is a safe, good place to raise a kid. It feels like we could spend a minimal amount of money to make the house ready to have a kid. It doesn\u2019t feel like this huge thing that will keep us from having fun now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m struck by the way we\u2019re talking about money right now. I\u2019m a little surprised. The way that you\u2019re talking about money, it\u2019s like the two of you make 50k a year combined. We\u2019re talking about a trip to Japan for 15k. So does it strike you as a little odd the way we\u2019re all talking about money right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:44]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0To me it\u2019s constant worrying. She\u2019s like, \u201cI could lose my job, so we need essentially this gigantic emergency fund.\u201d And a big part of that is like, I\u2019m in the PhD. Carrie\u2019s the primary earner, and so she feels it\u2019s all on her. To me it feels like way more stress and anxiety about the future about relatively small things. I think we\u2019d just be happier if we did feel like we made over 200k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How would you characterize the way that each of you feels about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:19]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d say uncertain. It doesn\u2019t feel guaranteed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Uncertain. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:24]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel very privileged about our financial situation. I know that I should feel confident.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Don\u2019t tell me what you should feel. Tell me what you do feel.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:31]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Worried.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:34]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Stressed, pressured.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s pretty interesting. So you feel uncertain, privileged, and worried. Okay. Same question for you, Dillon.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:47]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel generally relaxed towards money. I don\u2019t like thinking about money, but I feel confident that I know how to think about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s quite interesting. Who manages the day-to-day money in the household? Is it one or both of you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:05]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m definitely the check the Monarch app, see what\u2019s what every day. I manage it more, setting up like our bill payment, credit card payments, making sure that there\u2019s enough money where it needs to be to handle those expenses.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not surprising, right? You see so far what\u2019s going on. So Dillon\u2019s like, I feel super relaxed. I\u2019m not really involved in the day-to-day. Carrie goes, I am worried. I\u2019m logging into my account every single day. What do you notice so far?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:42]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I feel like it\u2019s on me to make sure the system is still staying afloat from an operational standpoint, but then also from a cash flow standpoint.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:51]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I personally wish that you could feel more relaxed about money. I do appreciate the work that you do day-to-day to make sure everything is paid.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:02]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that we\u2019ve got a balance of you\u2019re more relaxed and that helps with my less relaxed, but I do wish that I too was more relaxed and I think also more grateful instead of worried and confident instead of worried. But the worrying just really comes naturally to me. The relaxing does not come naturally to me. So it feels like a comfortable place to be. That\u2019s more of my safe space. I wouldn\u2019t know what being relaxed or confident about money even looks like.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can you imagine for me for a second, Carrie?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:42]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, probably it would feel happier. One of the things that I think I put on our conscious spending plan was wanting to do workout classes. And so while we were doing it, I started Googling Pilates classes in our town to see how much is that. And it was $48 for a 45-minute class. I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, that\u2019s ridiculous.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:08]\u00a0But at the same time, I know that could be possible and could be comfortable from a financial standpoint if I chose that. And so I feel like being confident and relaxed about money to me looks like going to a 50-dollar Pilates class and feeling happy about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What would need to change for you in order for you to feel happy and relaxed to go to a 50-dollar Pilates class?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:42]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, when I think about it, my head goes right back to lead paint. I think about where that money would be spent otherwise.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meaning if I spent $50 on myself, I\u2019m not spending $50 that could be spent for lead paint, which is really for our unborn baby, which makes me what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:05]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0A bad future mom.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Wow. This is the ultimate in-mom guilt. Someone who\u2019s not even a mom feels guilty for future version of mom. She\u2019s a guilty pre-mom, everybody. Give her a round of applause. So what do you think about that? It\u2019s funny, right? But there\u2019s something a bit dark about that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:24]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably the reverse is also true that not choosing to invest in myself and my own happiness would also make me a bad future mom. To be a good mom in the future, I should focus on incorporating that into my life more now and have those habits built so that I can be a better parent in the future.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sounds great. But spending 200, 300, 400 bucks a month on Pilates, you could be investing that. You could be renovating that. How do you justify that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:04]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0You tell me, man. I don\u2019t know. I can\u2019t rationalize that because I know it\u2019s better to invest at the age of 29 than it is at the age of 35. And the more I do now, the better it is later.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re absolutely right. It is better to invest at 29 than 35. The difference can be somewhat large over 30 years. But when you get into the top 5%, top 2%, it can start to become unhealthy. Keep investing, just keep maxing it out. More is better. What is an example where doing a little more is good, but you do way more and it turns bad?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:50]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Exercise. It\u2019s great for you. Exercise, even every day, probably good for you. But what about eight hours a day of exercise?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:57]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s excessive. That\u2019s really going to deplete you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Any connection to money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:02]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Yes, it is depleting. It is draining.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And it\u2019s not just depleting on you, right? Let\u2019s look at Dillon. Dillon, this need to save almost everything, what effect does it have on you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:14]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s tricky for me because I basically took this really low earning job of a PhD or locking in for six years to do this thing. So it\u2019s like without Carrie, I\u2019d be living on ramen. But at the same time, we know what makes us happy together is to do things like going to Japan. That\u2019s really what strengthens our relationship and makes us feel really close to each other now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:40]\u00a0And I feel like Carrie puts so much pressure on herself to say, it\u2019s all on me. What if we didn\u2019t achieve these big goals? Having a kid because I did this selfish thing. And it\u2019s like that for so many things. It\u2019s exhausting. It drags me down, and it makes me feel guilty for doing the PhD. I know it\u2019s not true, but I feel like if I made more money, Carrie\u2019s stress and pressure would go away<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I just\u00a0want to\u00a0cut in here because it\u2019s great that\u00a0Dillon\u00a0thinks he can solve this problem by earning more money. He sees his wife stressing out about carrying the bulk of the financial burden for their lifestyle, and he believes that if he simply earns more, her stress and anxiety will go away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:25]\u00a0But I can tell you right now that probably wouldn\u2019t make Carrie feel much better even if\u00a0Dillon\u00a0earned the bulk of their combined income.\u00a0Why? Because Carrie is a classic worrier.\u00a0She said so herself. And for the worrier, money conversations are always negative. They worry about running out of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:44]\u00a0They lie awake at night, playing out worst-case scenarios, compulsively logging into their accounts every day, and eventually they\u2019ll even worry about why they are worrying\u00a0so much.\u00a0They believe often that just this one thing will stop making me worry. But if you say,\u00a0\u201cReally?\u201d\u00a0They realize,\u00a0\u201cOh,\u00a0no, I\u2019m still\u00a0going to\u00a0keep worrying.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:06]\u00a0Now imagine being married to a worrier. You\u2019re seeing this playing out in real life with\u00a0Dillon\u00a0and Carrie. Every time money comes up, even when the topic is fun, like planning a dream vacation to Japan, the conversation naturally starts to center around fear.\u00a0In this case, it\u2019s fear around being a bad future mom because there\u2019s lead paint on the windows.\u00a0And no amount of\u00a0Dillon\u00a0reassuring her will assuage her fears. Candidly, it can become exhausting.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:34]\u00a0I\u2019ve noticed this pattern, and I developed specific advice for\u00a0worriers and even for partners of\u00a0worriers in my new book,\u00a0Money for Couples.\u00a0So if you\u00a0want to\u00a0learn more, go to iwt.com\/moneyforcouples. We\u2019ll get back to their money psychology after a quick break to support our sponsors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:54]\u00a0Now back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s talk about this PhD program. So how did you decide to join this PhD program?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:02]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I had worked for four years in two jobs and I just wanted more from my career. I felt like even though I\u2019m a high earning consultant, I\u2019m basically using stuff I learned in seventh grade and I just wanted to do something more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was that conversation like between the two of you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:17]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0With PhD, Carrie was like, what about kids? What about buying a house? And I was like, \u201cEven when I\u2019m making this little stipend, our joint income will be high enough, plenty high enough to start a family and do those things.\u201d And I remember that being the thing that convinced her, okay, this will work financially. I want him to achieve his dreams. So go for it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And Carrie, did you feel you understood the ramifications of a PhD program?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:44]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I definitely did not, and this whole conversation, figuring out, reworking our finances in this shift was bad, was really bad. Because at every point in our relationship up until that point, we had always split everything 50-50. When we started dating, we had really similar income, everything just 50-50, but it was only up until the PhD that at that point we started to think about or talk about what would be a more equitable split of our finances. And that was not something I\u2019d ever\u00a0had to think about. I\u2019ve\u00a0never split something not 50-50 with anybody.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did that feel like to have this proportionality conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:38]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It didn\u2019t feel fair to me. I got in a very big fight over it. We blew up and each just went separately on walks to go cool off and think about it. And I called my friends to ask what they do in their relationships when they\u2019ve got a big discrepancy in income.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did your friends tell you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:08]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That they don\u2019t split things 50-50.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa. That\u2019s surprising, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:13]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It just was different for me. It wasn\u2019t something that I had encountered before, and I definitely was raised to be more stingy about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who raised you that way?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:25]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0My dad, I would say. He makes a lot of money but he\u2019s very cheap.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Growing up, did you like that, or was it a source of embarrassment for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:34]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0More so a source of stress, honestly. Kind of a yucky example, but child support. My parents divorced when I was two, and my dad\u2019s income really kept going up from there. And there\u2019s consistent times throughout my life that my parents were going back and forth, battling over my mom wanting more child support and my dad fighting that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you realizing something right now as we\u2019re talking about this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:07]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:09]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s similar in that he was in a position to contribute more to make my life easier as a kid. But I\u2019m sure he thought about that more of how it impacted him and wanting more for himself maybe. With his income going up, it only would make sense for him to pay a higher child support. With my income being higher, it makes sense for me to pay more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. That seems like a pretty big breakthrough just now. Is your dad still alive?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:47]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Are you still in touch with him?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:49]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019s his financial situation now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:53]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Pretty baller.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know how much they were disagreeing about, 2,000, 5,000. Who knows? Some amount. What percentage of his net worth do you think that is now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:06]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s got to be pretty insignificant. He\u2019s a Midwest baller. In the same year that we got married, which my dad and stepmom paid for, they also built a new garage at their lake house and bought a brand new pontoon boat.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0First of all, you didn\u2019t need to tell me they lived in the Midwest. Once you told me they have a lake house, okay, done. This is as Midwest as it gets.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:32]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s the definition of Midwest ballers, the lake house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s quite interesting, the idea that we can often play so small and fight over these things that seem existential to us and yet if we zoom out, that argument over child support actually had close to no material effect on that person\u2019s finances but probably would\u2019ve helped you and your mom in a tremendous way back then.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:02]\u00a0So I think the connection here is quite clear that we can spend all this time together arguing about X, Y, or Z\u2013 a trip to Japan is a great example, but if we fast forward 10, 20, 30 years, will that 15,000-dollar trip in your situation with your joint household income make a material difference at age 60?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:27]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It won\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dillon, you agree?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:30]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dillon\u2019s like, \u201cI\u2019ve been trying to say that.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:33]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But okay. That\u2019s cool. This is a source of agreement. I haven\u2019t yet heard about this trip to Japan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:40]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s the thing. I know that it won\u2019t, but that doesn\u2019t keep me from worrying about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, wow. I know the math, but I can\u2019t change the way I feel. Is that what you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:54]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Now we\u2019re on solid ground. The way I feel is real, but it may not correlate to reality. And that\u2019s okay. Our feelings are real. I\u2019d never tell you to stop feeling a certain way. But maybe they don\u2019t quite sync up with your actual financial situation. Okay, we\u2019re getting somewhere now. Carrie, you\u2019re highly paid in the tech industry. Dillon, you are a PhD student, not earning a particularly lot of money right now. How much of this tension, the way that both of you interact with your household income, a result of your career choices?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:29]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0A significant portion is also just my peer anxiety, but I know that I also put the blame on our career choices.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:39]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Carrie never really internalized that it could be fair to split money unevenly. And she\u2019ll bring up that I\u2019m not contributing towards these goals that we have as a couple. I\u2019m not contributing towards our next house. I\u2019m not contributing towards being able with a kid, and it does feel like there\u2019s a hidden layer of blame on my career that at least I have created in my head as existing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Carrie, any truth to what Dillon is suggesting?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:09]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:11]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0You asked\u00a0about what did that conversation look like for Dillon deciding to do the PhD. I feel like that conversation wasn\u2019t really a joint discussion on how are we going to rearrange things. How are we going to make this work? What\u2019s this going to look like to make us both feel good about this decision? It was a proclamation of like, this is what I\u2019m going to do, and this is what my income is going to be, and I can\u2019t split things 50-50 anymore, so you got to meet me where I\u2019m at.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And at the time it sounds like you begrudgingly agreed, but over time you have realized that didn\u2019t feel good to me, and I don\u2019t feel good right now. Am I capturing that correctly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:55]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I told Dillon that I wanted to feel more appreciated for carrying that load. I am cool with splitting things 80-20, and I do think that that puts proportionate burden on each of us. But I don\u2019t feel like I had any input. I know I could have been more supportive at the time, but I don\u2019t feel like there was gratitude for carrying the team, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:24]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0To me, it didn\u2019t feel like I just proclaimed it. I did push it. I didn\u2019t lay off it because I was like, \u201cIf you don\u2019t contribute more, I can\u2019t live the life that we want to live together.\u201d But it\u2019s also interesting to hear you talk about the gratitude portion because I think that\u2019s fair. Matter of fact about it, I was like, \u201cThis is what\u2019s best for both of us.\u201d It\u2019s clear as day to me. I do hear that that gratitude piece was missing of this is what\u2019s best for both of us, but your career is what makes that possible.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you say, Carrie, hearing that? What does it sound like to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:00]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you for acknowledging that because I do feel like at the time the conversation really lacked an emotional lens. You could live on a PhD stipend and eat ramen and live in a smaller place and not go out for cocktails, but that\u2019s not the life I want to live. That\u2019s not what I signed up for. Hard pivot. I\u2019m not doing that. I make a lot. I\u2019m not going to live like I make 40k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:26]\u00a0So I\u2019m not going to adjust my lifestyle to that of a PhD student. I came around, after talking to my friends and knowing that that\u2019s a normal thing to do. And thinking about how our fights about money and splitting our finances was impacting our relationship, I did think about my dad and my mom at that time and actively chose I didn\u2019t want to be like that and I didn\u2019t want to feel cruel or controlling with money and came back to that conversation being onboard.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I really like hearing this conversation between the two of you. Of course, let\u2019s know our numbers, but let\u2019s actually talk about what we each need from this conversation. Whoa. That takes money to a whole new level. So I love both of you being candid about, you\u2019re saying, Dillon, yeah, I probably was a little overly logical. I don\u2019t think that I was doing a proclamation, but I probably could have spoken up a little bit more and appreciated you. Love that. Carrie, love that you\u2019re saying, \u201cI simply wanted to be acknowledged.\u201d To me, that\u2019s a beautiful conversation between the two of you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:38]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Looking back at that conversation, I almost just cornered her. And it wasn\u2019t because I was doing it on purpose. I was like, \u201cThis is better for both of us.\u201d And I totally missed what she really needed. I really appreciate your goals that you have for us as a couple, us as a family, and the work that you put in and the money that you make to make that happen. And I really love your focus on that, and I love that about you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:07]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Thanks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The thing that was striking about that was that big smile on your face the whole time, Carrie. See, you cannot say enough nice things about your partner. And that was a perfect example. Great job. Great job to both of you. And not just for what you just did, but honestly for the conversations that you had in the past, even though they may have been a bit clunky, they still opened up the ability to have these conversations.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:34]\u00a0So I have to commend you both. Okay. So you split the expenses proportionally, 80-20. All right. And that was at the beginning of your PhD program. How long have you been a PhD student, Dillon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:51]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m starting my third year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Have you talked about what you expect to earn when you graduate?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:57]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it comes up somewhat often.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much ballpark?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:02]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0It could be a wide range. I would say it\u2019s probably minimum 150, maximum 500.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, fine. So it\u2019s a lot of money. And then combined with Carrie\u2019s income, that\u2019s a huge amount of money. All right. Do you both agree that your household income, if you were Carrie, to continue at the pace you\u2019re at, that the two of you would have quite a large household income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:26]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely agree with that. I think the key part is, at the pace you\u2019re at, my worrying tendency is, can I keep up this pace? Because it is stressful and it feels high pressure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because y\u2019all are talking about having a baby next year or at some point in the near-term future and you\u2019ve got this Japan thing you\u2019ve discussed. You have some like lead paint or whatever. It sounds to me like we should just look at your numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you enjoy these videos, you\u00a0want to\u00a0be the first to know when a new one drops,\u00a0make sure you hit that Subscribe button now. It really helps my team and me grow.\u00a0Up next, we\u2019ll open up their conscious spending plan\u00a0when we get back from this quick break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:12]\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Here we go.\u00a0Carrie, read off the word in bold\u00a0and then the full number next to it, please.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:21]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Assets, 415,000.\u00a0Investments, 341,000.\u00a0Savings, 23,000.\u00a0Debt, 353,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Total net worth?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:35]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0426,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you all think about those numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:39]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels really good to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Carrie?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:41]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That feels like monopoly money because it\u2019s intangible and it\u2019s far away. Our assets are what we think the value of our house is and our investments are whatever the market says right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. No wonder you can\u2019t feel good about money. The money you have, which is considerable, is not real, at least for today. It\u2019s meant for tomorrow. Who even knows if it\u2019s real because it\u2019s just what the market says? 426k. Life sucks. Let\u2019s just talk about the income. Dillon, just read me off your combined annual income.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:16]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Our combined annual income is $237,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0$237,000, or roughly, let\u2019s just say 20k\u00a0a\u00a0month gross. What do y\u2019all think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:28]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t ever think about what that is on a monthly basis. At the end of the day in my bank account is like, I don\u2019t know, $6,500 a month. So to me, I make $6,500 a month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Got you. And when you say in my bank account, which bank account specifically?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:49]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Our joint checking account.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It always comes back to checking. The way people feel about their money, for many people, is almost entirely determined by what is in their checking account. Literally, what\u2019s in my checking account tells me how to feel, tells me if I fall asleep crying at night, tells me if I think we can go on vacation. That\u2019s it. Can you see the problem with that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:11]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not the whole picture.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. It\u2019s one layer. It\u2019s like having a Thanksgiving dinner and you\u2019re only saying if it\u2019s good or not based on the mashed potatoes. That doesn\u2019t tell you anything. You got to look at the whole picture. And the whole picture is more complex than a number that\u2019s in your checking and comes and goes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:30]\u00a0For me, I look at this, I look at the net worth section. All of that is real. All of it. In fact, I even see what your $341,000 in investments turns into by the time you retire. So to me, that\u2019s real. You just need a little time. Then I look at your income, that\u2019s real, but you know what\u2019s the most real of all is the next number.\u00a0Let\u2019s take a look. What is this fixed cost number here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:57]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Our combined annual fixed costs come to 33%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0First off, amazing job managing your costs. 33%,\u00a0one of the lowest fixed cost numbers that I\u2019ve seen. You\u2019re spending 800 bucks a month on groceries. Okay, fine. Clothes are at 200 bucks a month. Fine. Home maintenance is at 300 bucks a month. Dog,\u00a075.\u00a0How much time and energy do you spend worrying about your fixed costs?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:25]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that answer depends on which of us you ask.\u00a0For me, not very much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:30]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think the fixed costs too much. I maybe check on the grocery spend a little bit,\u00a0but even that in our conscious spending plan, I\u2019m like, let\u2019s go a little wild. Let\u2019s bump that up\u00a0$100,\u00a0get some fancy groceries. But no, there\u2019s not anything that I think that we could make any less expensive. So I\u2019m content with that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:53]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know if that answer reflects my experience about how much you worry about our fixed costs. You\u2019re always worrying about, oh, what if the car breaks down. I feel like you mentioned that every other time we drive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:07]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we should be prepared for the day when our 2006 Kia Sorento at the\u00a0137,000 miles on it craps out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What just happened right there? Do you guys catch that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:20]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I accused Carrie of worrying too much, and then she was like,\u00a0\u201cNo, I should worry about this.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Pretty much,\u00a0with one additional step. So Carrie was very casual about the fixed cost. Oh, I don\u2019t really worry about it. In fact, I think I\u00a0want to\u00a0spend more on groceries. And then\u00a0Dillon\u00a0goes, hold on a second. That\u2019s not my experience. You worry about the car every other time we go in it. And then, Carrie, what was your response?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:43]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That my worrying is justified.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.\u00a0So which is it? Do you worry about your fixed costs or not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:52]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m very comfortable with where they are right now,\u00a0but there\u2019s areas of risk.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which one?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:58]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0The car. Just the car.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where\u2019s the risk?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:00]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Having liquid funds to get a new car.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How much does this say you have in savings?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:06]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a023,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Relative to your investments, that\u2019s not a lot. Your fixed cost being $5,000 a month, you have roughly four months of an emergency fund. So I agree. If you are concerned about your car breaking down, you may not have enough. However, as I keep scrolling down, I start to see more information.\u00a0Let\u2019s take a look. Investments, 28% of net.\u00a0That\u2019s\u00a0a very high number. I love that. That\u2019s a great number for a young high-income couple. Look at a smile on Carrie\u2019s face. She\u2019s like,\u00a0\u201cI did\u00a0it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. I love that validation. I live for that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. I am impressed. This is great. This is my approach when I was young.\u00a0I could live in a very affordable place. I didn\u2019t need to go to super fancy places. And I was like, let me\u00a0just take all this money and invest it, grow that compound interest. And it was great. I had many years where I really invested aggressively.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:08]\u00a0All\u00a0right.\u00a0So you\u2019re both living that, the two of you investing $51,000 a year. Then I keep going down. I see your savings are at 11%. You save about 1,200 bucks a month for vacations,\u00a0250 bucks a month for emergency fund,\u00a0and then miscellaneous savings, a very precise $306 per month.\u00a0Home improvement is $2,500 a month. What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:35]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s an average of all of the money that we\u2019ve spent on our house\u00a0in\u00a0the time that we\u2019ve owned it\u00a0for renovations,\u00a0which just stopped.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u00a0are you\u00a0going to\u00a0do with the extra money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:49]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0That is the question. And honestly, the whole discrepancy between our current spending plan and our conscious spending plan is, hey, we have 2,500 extra dollars a month.\u00a0Let\u2019s just use that on all those things that bring us joy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, I like that. I support it. Travel is 500 bucks a month. Gifts, eating out bars at\u00a01,000\u00a0bucks a month, and then shopping 400 bucks a month. Fine. 27%. What do I care? It\u2019s 20 to 35%. You\u2019re right down the middle. Everything looks good.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0For the last 30 minutes we\u2019ve been dancing around this question of whether they can afford a trip to Japan. Are you seeing these numbers?\u00a0With a little bit of planning,\u00a0they can absolutely go to Japan. The numbers are not holding them back, but even if I tell them that right now,\u00a0it\u00a0won\u2019t make a difference.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:37]\u00a0I met a lot of people as I built my business that want external validation. They want me to say, good job.\u00a0Bravo. You did it. But that wouldn\u2019t work for Carrie, even though she says she lives for validation.\u00a0Carrie is so trapped in worry and fear that my validation won\u2019t make any difference at all. Maybe temporarily like eating a candy bar, but it won\u2019t change anything substantive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:02]\u00a0The challenge here\u00a0and\u00a0the real solution is to get Carrie to shift her perspective from being problem-oriented, to being solution-oriented.\u00a0All of us can identify problems. In fact, some people fixate on that. They actually thrive on identifying all the things that can go wrong. But a simple shift to focusing on acknowledging problems, but also talking about what can go right,\u00a0what are our solutions, that can make a huge difference.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:32]\u00a0And she\u2019s\u00a0got to\u00a0be actively involved in the solution if she\u2019s going to be able to shift that mindset.\u00a0That\u2019s why I\u2019m not just giving them the answer. If I did, they would be right back to square one as soon as this call ended. Listen now as I challenge them to think about adjusting some of their key numbers to make this possible.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can snap your fingers and afford this. There\u2019s literally multiple ways you could do it. Go ahead. Each of you name one and just go back and forth.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:59]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0We could take the home improvement spending of $2,500 a month and save that for six months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s one way. I agree. What\u2019s next?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:10]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Sell some stocks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, great.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:14]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Take some money that we invest each month, contribute that to our vacation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. What\u2019s next?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:20]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0We could eat out less.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, that\u2019s $13,000 a year. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:26]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Shopping.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:27]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0We can\u2019t fully stop shopping.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Nobody said you have to fully stop. You could cut it down by 20% here. You could cut 20% off there. So the point is, what was your conclusion from us going through the CSP and finding 10 different ways you could pay for a trip to Japan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:40]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s areas that we can cut down to be able to afford the trip more easily. But those just seem harder than changing investment allocations or selling stocks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, you could do that too. You could change your investment allocation or your investment contribution by 2% and you\u2019re good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:00]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s where it\u2019s hard to prioritize though. How do I choose Japan over fully doing my 401K?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You tell me. How do I choose it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:08]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0By looking at the numbers and knowing that lowering it is still going to be okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, you could do that. You have done that, I\u2019m sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:19]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I\u2019ve only looked at ways to increase.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And as a result, what is your general philosophy with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:28]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Keep those fixed costs low and invest as much as I can. My mom was never really financially literate, and that definitely came back to bite her in different times that now I know she\u2019s not in a good place for retirement. And as a kid, there were a few times that she borrowed money from me to be able to pay some bills. I definitely think that\u2019s where the savings comes from. That\u2019s a really stressful position to be in as a child. And I definitely think I learned from that. You got to save because you don\u2019t know what could come.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So the conclusion from seeing\u00a0your mom is, that\u00a0looks really stressful. I don\u2019t ever want to be in that position, so I\u2019m going to save a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:16]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how much money do you need to save to feel safe?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:20]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s where it\u2019s just as much as you can. I think something like 5 million in retirement, but I\u2019ve also definitely done those retirement calculators and been like, hmm, now I can only feel comfortable if it\u2019s seven.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You know those dog races where they put the hot dog in front of the dog and they chase it? The funny thing is, it\u2019s like you are chasing something that you yourself put the hot dog in front of you. You\u2019re just holding it out in front of yourself and then running after it. And if you get too close, what do you do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:54]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Push it further away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly? Oh, 5 million? That\u2019s not enough. 7 million. Ooh, I feel so good because I have not achieved it yet. And therefore, I take comfort in not catching the hot dog. It\u2019s an underdog identity. And an underdog identity can be really constructive. It can be positive. It makes you work harder. You achieve more. You put the time in. I love that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:23]\u00a0But being an underdog always is also not that fun. Underdogs don\u2019t get to take a nice trip. Underdogs always say to themselves, we can\u2019t afford Japan. Maybe if X and Y and Z, then we do it. The two are actually just identical. Japan is just a microcosm of $7 million 30 years from now. They\u2019re exactly the same.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I just\u00a0want to\u00a0jump in here because this might be frustrating to listen to. I know it\u2019s frustrating for me.\u00a0On paper, they have a healthy income. Their fixed costs are low. They\u2019re investing aggressively. Why are we here? Why are we talking about this? And I\u2019ll tell you why. Because many of us believe that if we just had a little bit more money, we would be fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:07]\u00a0We\u2019d have no financial problems. And many of the couples that I speak to on this podcast are in that situation where they have earned more low fixed costs, etc.,\u00a0but they still worry. That\u2019s one of the primary points of the podcast is that changing your financial situation alone will not necessarily change the way you feel about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:28]\u00a0Now, let\u2019s talk about what I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0do about it. Yes, they are creating unnecessary problems. The question is why. And if you\u2019re wondering why I\u2019m not freaking out,\u00a0yelling at them for doing this, there\u2019s a reason. It won\u2019t work. A lot of the commenters online want me to sit here and go,\u00a0\u201cThis is stupid. You should change it immediately.\u00a0It\u2019s so obvious.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:48]\u00a0Well, it\u2019s not obvious for the couple who\u2019s here. Worrying is really the only way that Carrie knows how to relate to money. And when we see the full picture, we can understand that it started when she was a kid. She watched her own mom worry about money when her parents divorce. It\u2019s deeply rooted in her,\u00a0and changing that mindset, and certainly behavior, takes time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:07]\u00a0The thing is she obviously gets something out of worrying or else she wouldn\u2019t do it. Maybe it\u2019s a sense of control. Maybe it\u2019s something else. The other thing we have to acknowledge here is that her partner is suffering, and I don\u2019t think she realizes the true impact that this is having on her marriage.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:23]\u00a0If I can get her to identify what drives her need to worry and also help her acknowledge the massive strain that it\u2019s putting on\u00a0Dillon\u00a0and their marriage, we can start to make changes. We\u2019ll dive back in after this short break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:37]\u00a0Welcome back. Let\u2019s keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So here\u2019s the thing. I don\u2019t like to worry about money. Why would I worry about money? Carrie, what do you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:45]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like it\u2019s just so easy to come up with situations where there\u2019s not going to be enough. I think I tend to blow things out of proportion or leap to a bigger problem.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You find comfort in worrying about what could go wrong?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:01]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s how I\u2019m wired. I find comfort in looking down the road a little bit and seeing potential problems. It\u2019s not pleasant. It\u2019s not fun. It feels like preparedness.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u00a0are the\u00a0costs of thinking about all the things that can go wrong constantly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:16]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of gray hairs. I think it definitely bums Dillon out too. I can see that it disappoints him or frustrates him, because it really derails conversation. So whatever word it is that we\u2019re trying to get done together and decide on together just gets sidetracked.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0By?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:39]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0My anxiety.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is this anxiety present in other parts of life for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:43]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Have you addressed it with a counselor, therapist, etc.?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:48]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0We are working on it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s the best answer I could hope for. All right. I guess I\u2019m confused because your CSP looks pretty good. There\u2019s some things you can change here and there, but you\u2019re investing $50,000 a year. You\u2019re all going to be wealthy. You know that, right? Dillon\u2019s nodding his head yes. Carrie?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:07]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ah, [Bleep]. We have to do this right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:12]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I get compounding interest. I look at the little graph. I know you\u2019d give it 40 years and\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:20]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Gets too well, that\u2019s why she doesn\u2019t go to Pilates. If I go to Pilates, that\u2019s $100 a month. I can invest that now. Now is the good time to invest it so that I can, I don\u2019t know, have seven times that when I retire.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you see the logical conclusion of the frugality bros? Don\u2019t go to Pilates. Don\u2019t get a cheeseburger from McDonald\u2019s. Don\u2019t, don\u2019t, don\u2019t. And then you end up sitting in your room like this and going, I love compound interest. What\u2019s the point of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:52]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s room for improvement.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, the thing that actually makes me the most sad is that you are playing so small, so small.\u00a0$15,000 vacation to Japan?\u00a0That\u2019s it?\u00a0For you,\u00a0you could knock this out. In literally seven days from now, you could be there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:12]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it doesn\u2019t feel that way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, your feelings may not actually line up with reality. What do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:20]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s probably accurate.\u00a0I know that there\u2019s money there. My head just keeps going to insulation replacement.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe you want insulation. Maybe you need insulation, but I don\u2019t think that\u2019s stopping you from Japan. It\u2019s been four years. Do you\u00a0want to\u00a0go to Japan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:38]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what kind of person goes to Japan when they own a house and they bring in 80% of the household income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:48]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s pretty bougie. I think I\u2019m just\u00a0going to\u00a0need to look away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s not a healthy relationship with money. Healthy relationship says, I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0understand the numbers. I\u2019m going to talk to my partner. We\u2019re going to talk about what\u2019s our\u00a0\u200aRich Life\u00a0vision. What are our money dials?\u00a0What\u2019s important?\u00a0What\u2019s not? And we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0both do this openly. How do you think my wife and I talk about our travels?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:10]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m sure easily\u00a0because [Inaudible]\u00a0substantially higher net worth.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fine. But again, I\u2019m talking to somebody, both of you who have a considerable net worth. So proportionally, maybe it\u2019s a little different, but let\u2019s assume that it\u2019s ballpark the same.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:28]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0You chose,\u00a0we like travel.\u00a0We\u00a0want to\u00a0prioritize travel. We will put more into travel.\u00a0We\u2019ll put less into other things, but we know it will all work out. We\u2019ll be able to retire, achieve our life goals, and we get to have fun now and have this really valuable\u00a0experience that brings us closer together.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When do we talk about the trip we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0take?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:51]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably a few months in advance.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We map it out for the whole year. Where do we\u00a0want to\u00a0go,\u00a0when?\u00a0We\u2019re not sure about where we\u00a0want to\u00a0go for this time, but let\u2019s put a block and we\u2019ll going back and forth with ideas. We\u2019re talking about it. We\u2019re sending pictures.\u00a0We\u2019re going,\u00a0\u201cOh, we should go to this place. Oh, I added that to the Japan bookmarks.\u201d\u00a0What are we doing when we\u2019re doing that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:14]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re working together to build that vision of what it is that you want to do and\u00a0building that excitement.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And because we\u2019ve already handled the parts about what\u2019s our investment rate, what\u2019s our savings rate, is the money automatically being put in this account or that,\u00a0that\u2019s all handled.\u00a0So we don\u2019t need to talk about the money anymore, basically at all. It\u2019s all about the vision, and this is the most fun part.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:39]\u00a0In fact, we get to have our vacation three times. One is in the months leading up to it, where we\u2019re sending each other these things and book\u2013\u00a0oh, should we do that? Oh, I didn\u2019t get the reservation there. That\u2019s number one. Number two in it, when we\u2019re there.\u00a0We\u2019re walking around.\u00a0We\u2019re having a blast.\u00a0So cool.\u00a0And then number three, when we post pictures about it again.\u00a01, 2, 3 times, we get to live this. And what do you think that that does for our relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:06]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m sure that brings you closer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.\u00a0So what do you make of that as it relates to your ability to take a trip to Japan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:15]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0My mentality around it doesn\u2019t bring us closer. It makes it more stressful and challenging instead of being something that we\u2019re jointly excited for.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s right. It\u2019s actually become this huge wedge between the two of you for the last four years. You\u2019re in a privileged situation with so much money. What a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:38]\u00a0We\u2019re not talking about buying a Rolls Royce.\u00a0We\u2019re talking about a trip you\u2019ve been talking about for four years. And if you don\u2019t\u00a0want to\u00a0spend 15, spend 10.\u00a0Fine. The price is not the point.\u00a0The point is, what is your\u00a0\u200aRich Life\u00a0vision and how can you start to live it today and then live an even richer vision tomorrow?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:54]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0We decided, let\u2019s do Japan. That\u2019s a big part of our\u00a0\u200aRich Life.\u00a0And we know that we can make it happen financially. That\u2019s what I feel like we both want. For me, I\u2019m not\u00a0going to\u00a0be like, oh, this is the hotel I\u00a0want to\u00a0stay at. What do you think about this, Carrie? If we can\u2019t even commit to actually doing the trip, I\u2019m not the kind of person that likes to plan something that might not happen.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think Japan is the real issue here.\u00a0If you\u00a0want to\u00a0go to Japan, you can go to Japan.\u00a0You can go to Japan tomorrow.\u00a0It\u2019s not a financial decision whatsoever. It\u2019s,\u00a0do the two of you\u00a0want to\u00a0do it,\u00a0and do you prioritize it? Right now you don\u2019t. Or at least one of you does.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Now I\u2019m really frustrated because we\u2019ve been talking in circles about this trip to Japan. They can afford the trip. There\u2019s no question about that. You know it.\u00a0I know it. And most importantly, they know it. What do you notice when you listen to them talking about planning this trip? I notice that it is entirely centered around logistics. Can we afford it? Can we not? Where\u2019s the money coming from to pay for it? What about investment? Should it come from spending less on shopping?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:01]\u00a0It\u2019s clear that there is no joy in these conversations. There\u2019s no shared vision for planning this dream trip.\u00a0And this logistics driven conversation is just a symptom of a much deeper issue that\u00a0Dillon\u00a0actually included in his application. I\u00a0want to\u00a0bring them back to the original reason they are here.\u00a0Listen, as I remind him why he wanted to talk to me.\u00a0You may be shocked to hear what he wrote.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess what I\u2019m hearing today is a little bit at odds with what I\u00a0received in the application. In the application, Dillon, you wrote, \u201cMy wife does not respect me. She makes four to five times more than me and believes I should do all the dishes. Calls herself the breadwinner and me the housewife.\u201d Is that accurate?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:47]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s accurate.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you make of that, Carrie? It\u2019s pretty striking.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:52]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0When we\u2019ve had tense conversations around money or housework, yeah, I have said that I\u2019m the breadwinner and he\u2019s my housewife.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what does that mean, housewife? What\u2019s the implication?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:10]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Dillon does most of the cooking and cleaning.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you call him a housewife, what are you really saying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:15]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a put down. I guess I feel attacked in some way. It\u2019s defensive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:21]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Whenever she\u2019s feeling like we don\u2019t have enough money, which as you gathered is often, I\u2019m the blame for that. If I were to just take my lucrative skillset and make money for us right now, then we could live comfortably, achieve all of our goals.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Carrie, is that pretty accurate?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:40]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It doesn\u2019t sound good. It\u2019s unkind. It\u2019s not supportive. It\u2019s also just untrue. We can reach the goals that we have with just where we are today.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it is unkind. I\u2019m troubled to hear it. I\u2019m alarmed. Calling someone a housewife, especially a woman calling a man a housewife, which in and of itself is perplexing because maybe one day you might become a housewife, the implication being there\u2019s something wrong with it is weird to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:14]\u00a0I think it\u2019s offensive to a lot of people, certainly to the person you\u2019re calling that, and then you\u2019re right. It\u2019s untrue. It\u2019s untrue that you just need him to earn more money and then you can all do the things you want to do. You make more than enough money to do anything you two want to do right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:34]\u00a0May not feel that way, but I\u2019m looking at the same numbers as you. You have so much extra money, but you don\u2019t see it because you view the world through a set of lenses of scarcity. In fact, the lenses are so thick, it\u2019s almost like you have a ghost in front of you. I talk about the ghost in my book. Some people have a ghost around needing to pay off debt. I have to do anything to pay my debt off. And they make often very irrational, painful decisions.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:02]\u00a0In your case, it\u2019s pure scarcity and it\u2019s almost like a black hole. There\u2019s no end to it because you don\u2019t know how much is enough. You just want more and you\u2019re actually punishing your partner because he is getting a PhD in computer science. He literally just needs some time and he\u2019s going to be earning a lot of money anyway. And even if he didn\u2019t, your household income is really high.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:23]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I got to lay off, not put pressure on Dillon. Where he is and what he\u2019s doing is exactly what he should be doing right now. And then it\u2019s not to our detriment. No matter what, we\u2019re good right now. We\u2019re good, Dillon. I support you. I support your PhD. I want you to enjoy it and make the most of the experience and get as much of it from it as you can and not feel that pressure from me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:53]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0That pressure is hard because I\u2019ll be waking up at 3:00 AM thinking about my research, what am I doing? What am I getting from this? Why am I doing this? And in the meantime, also it\u2019s like a detriment to our household income. And it\u2019s a time when what I need is support. A PhD is very hard, and it requires total comfort with your position to be able to achieve that insight and creativity.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:24]\u00a0It requires periods of long time, of consecutive work where you might miss a meal or skip a chore or something. And I always want to not be a burden. And so I try to make sure everything\u2019s taken care of and try to do as much as I can to support you and not be a burden because I already feel like a burden through doing this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:55]\u00a0So if I could just accept we\u2019re in a good position financially together and I can put that to side and then get more out of the PhD.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dillon, what do you need right now?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:08]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I need you to understand that I\u2019m pushing myself in a really hard way and simultaneously I feel like burden. I feel like I\u2019m firing on all cylinders, this pressure, which partially is from you, partially is from myself, just keeping me from reaching my potential, which is super important to me, more important than making more money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:34]\u00a0It feels like I have to validate it to you that this thing will make money, that it\u2019s an investment, but it\u2019s not really how I feel about it. I want to apply my brain to these hard, unsolved problems and make a difference. And then I know I\u2019m not going to be like a starving artist doing it, but that\u2019s secondary.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:56]\u00a0If Ramit\u2019s talking about all the different important things to people, what can you spend on, what do you really want to prioritize? For me, it\u2019s like doing a job that really fulfills me over some business job where I would make more money and be doing seventh grade math.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:14]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s also where part of my money psychology is to the detriment of that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now you are on an escalator that only takes you to one place, earning more money. You\u2019ll do it. You\u2019ll win at that. You\u2019ll be validated in the way that you will see a higher income, and you and Dillon will become increasingly disjointed because that\u2019s not what he\u2019s trying to do. And as a couple, that creates a massive wedge. Just to put it a different way, what if we were having this conversation and the genders were flipped?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:46]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It sounds pretty [Bleep] up. If it were reversed, no, I would not feel good about that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You would be in a very bad place. What do you think your friends would say if you texted them and told them that? Those conversations would not be good. So I think it\u2019s really important for us to acknowledge gender in here. I think it\u2019s important for us to acknowledge the way that the two of you are relating to money. It\u2019s not healthy. That\u2019s why I\u2019m glad you\u2019re in couples therapy.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:15]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0All this stuff is really ingrained, and I know she doesn\u2019t want to feel anxious about money or everything else all the time, but she doesn\u2019t know how to get out, kind of. And I can\u2019t really be the one to change her perspective. And she\u2019s right. If she loses her job and her car breaks down and the stock market crashes, her company goes bankrupt, we would probably be completely screwed. But you can\u2019t live in fear of that stuff happening<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dillon, it\u2019s interesting you say you can\u2019t live that way, but actually Carrie\u2019s been living that way for a long time. Right, Carrie? And actually, you found a way to regard it as being planful, as being thoughtful, as being forward looking. How many years have you felt this way about money, that things can go wrong and I need to always be prepared?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:04]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve always felt that way about money. I have to actively work to not feel that way.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And who would you be if you were not worried about money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:15]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d be unprepared. I\u2019d be reactive instead of proactive.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I am not worried about money, so describe who I am.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:24]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re proactive and prepared and you\u2019ve made a plan and you know that things are going where they need to go for you to be able to follow that plan.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How can I do that if I\u2019m not worried about money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:38]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Much lower levels of anxiety. Level of comfort.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think you find comfort in worrying. I think it gives you purpose. I think it gives you meaning. I think it connects where you grew up with the tumultuous upbringing and the parental models that you had. I also think that you probably get a positive sensation out of self-deprivation.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:01]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s probably true.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like to save. I like to invest. I have very aggressive goals and numbers and stuff like that, but I have also developed a love of leisure, of travel, of\u2013 like today we just went for a walk and grabbed a coffee together in the middle of the day, 20 minutes. We loved it. That, to us, gives us an irrational sense of joy just to be able to do that. I don\u2019t think you\u2019ve developed a joy.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:33]\u00a0I don\u2019t think you\u2019ve allowed yourself to. The thing is, you have a partner, and he\u2019s over here telling you, this isn\u2019t working for me. He says, \u201cMy wife does not respect me.\u201d That\u2019s what he wrote. And you\u2019re all pretty young, no kids yet. Imagine you do have kids.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:51]\u00a0Imagine you get older. Imagine this dynamic calcifies. You\u2019re going to have millions of dollars and actually not have the foundation of a healthy relationship at all. What\u2019s the point? I\u2019d rather make half the money and have a healthier relationship with my partner. Are you both agreeing with me?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:07]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:08]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So then how are you going to do it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:11]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t feel like this will fix everything, but showing you gratitude, appreciation, and if you are in that situation where you could never feel good about what you have or what you achieved, I\u2019m super proud of you. I can be there to help you feel good about that stuff. And in terms of life planning, kids planning, I feel like we\u2019ve been trying and trying to make our relationship dynamic healthier to where I feel comfortable having kids.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dillon, have you told her exactly what you would need in order to feel ready to have kids?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:47]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to feel like we are a couple that can have fun together, but also take care of business and we\u2019re not drowning in our chores. We have a really functional good life without kids. So that way, when we add kids, we\u2019re not starting from dysfunction.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:00]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I totally agree on all the fronts. And I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve reflected enough on how my mentality around work and money influences all the time outside of that of having more energy and mental bandwidth for quality time and doing things that bring us more joy and pursuing that instead of pursuing the next promotion.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I agree. I think that\u2019s smart. Where are the KPIs for your relationship? We\u2019re the OKRs. I bet you have them at work. I bet you have multiple meetings lined up. Where are the equivalent meetings for your relationship? Where\u2019s the biweekly or monthly money meeting that you have? Where\u2019s the two-date coffee meetings that you\u2019re going to have on Tuesday and Thursday with each other before work just because you can? That stuff matters. It doesn\u2019t even cost much money. But it\u2019s like, oh my God, I\u2019m prioritizing work. How am I going to prioritize us?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:04]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0We try to have a weekly meeting.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you talk about in this meeting?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:08]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Touching base about your feelings, just checking in. And it\u2019s also logistical checking base, like what do we need to get done this week? What are your goals? What are my goals? How can we make sure we achieve them?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I love this. Clearly, you\u2019ve gone to therapy. That\u2019s a great agenda. I love that. Okay, cool. So you have the meeting and happens sometimes. Fine. What else? Fun stuff?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:29]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0We try to do treat day in the morning.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:32]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Within a 20-minute walk of our house, we have a coffee shop and a bagel shop. And once a week, usually back half of the week, you got to make it through to Friday, go and get a treat.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, I love that. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:49]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes we hike or we walk to the farmer\u2019s market together.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love everything you\u2019re saying. There\u2019s no checkbox. You don\u2019t have to impress me at how much you\u2019re doing together. I think it\u2019s great. I love the energy that I\u2019m hearing from the two of you. Okay. So do you all have a vision for your money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:03]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0We both feel like we want everything.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t need to hear the rest. That\u2019s a no. Carrie, do you have a vision for your money besides save more and invest more?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:13]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, great. That\u2019s all I need to hear, is a yes or no question. So you all understand that there are several issues at play here. Obviously, Carrie, your anxiety is, in my opinion, the number one thing that you have to focus on. He can\u2019t solve that for you. That is a you issue, and it\u2019s actually the number one. If you can\u2019t learn how to properly manage that with the help of a therapist, then this issue will simply persist in 500 different permutations.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:44]\u00a0That\u2019s it. And from the boundary I\u2019ve heard, maybe y\u2019all won\u2019t have kids because of that. What a waste. What a tragedy to let this ghost get in the way of what could otherwise be a really, really successful relationship. So that\u2019s number one. If I were you, I would be prioritizing that heavily. That would be my number one priority, number one, even ahead of work.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:04]\u00a0Next, we have the fact that, you two don\u2019t really have a vision of how you want your money to spend. And as a result,\u00a0Carrie\u2019s anxiety has basically become the defacto vision, which is let\u2019s just invest and save a\u00a0[Bleep]\u00a0of money.\u00a0That\u2019s why you\u2019re arguing over taking a random trip for four years.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:22]\u00a0If you had a vision, you wouldn\u2019t even have to talk about it. It would be decided already. It would automatically be saved for, and you would know the exact month and year you\u2019re going to take the trip. Boom. So you want to do a vision right now? What\u2019s your \u200aRich Life vision?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:35]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to do a nice meal together,\u00a0a $250 meal,\u00a0just say every month.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:42]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely the housekeepers are not going away. Now that started, there\u2019s no going back.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. How often do they come?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:48]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Every other week.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. All right. So you want to have housekeepers every other week. Fantastic. Dillon?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:54]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to take a big trip once a year. Doesn\u2019t have to be that expensive, but a trip that\u2019s just us.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:59]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to go to Pilates classes once a week.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:02]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to be able to put my head down and work four times a week. Not having to cook and clean every single day.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:13]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to pay to get our dog groomed.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does anybody think any of these are impossible?<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:19]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, no.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like you could do all these right now. So let\u2019s do it. All right. Tell me how you want to make this happen. I\u2019m putting your CSP up on screen. Tell me. How do you want to do it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:31]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0To me, the obvious thing is lowering our investments.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Carrie, are you cool with lowering your investments?<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:37]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Investments make it feel like I\u2019ve got some target to hit. I know the maximum that I can save for 401K in a year, and so I do that, and then that feels like an achievement.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In a way it\u2019s very helpful to know that what does it take to succeed? Tell me and then I\u2019m going to succeed. But when you get into the top 5%, top 2%, it can start to become unhealthy. Keep investing. Just keep maxing it out. More is better. What kind of problems do you think that that causes in the relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:11]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It puts artificial constraints on us. It\u2019s just my own standards that are putting us in that box.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Arbitrarily, you chose to invest 28% of net and now you feel stuck, but it\u2019s totally your own creation. The thing is, when you\u2019re really designing your \u200aRich Life, and especially when you\u2019re designing it with two people, there is an element of knowing the numbers and executing correctly, but there\u2019s also this beautiful element of creativity.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:44]\u00a0What do we want our \u200aRich Life to be? Do we want to invest 27%, or would it be better for us to invest 20% and take that extra 7% and allocate it over here? It\u2019s an art as well as a science. So I\u2019m going to show you how to do both right now. This is exactly how I think about my own investments.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:02]\u00a0So I go over to a compound interest calculator. I\u2019m going to plug your numbers in. You currently have $341,000 invested. You\u2019re investing $51,000 a year. Years to grow, how many years should we say before retirement?<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:15]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a030, 35.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Let\u2019s say 30, and then I\u2019ll show you what happens at 35. It\u2019s quite remarkable. So how much do you think you\u2019re going to have right now? Carrie, you know the number.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:23]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it is 5 million.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that number say right there? Carrie,\u00a0read it out\u00a0loud.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:26]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Hey, we\u2019ve hit my golden standard of 7.7 million.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does this tell you right here just looking at these numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:35]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s room to decrease. It\u2019s a bit excessive.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And also all this agony and worry over a number that you don\u2019t even know. You\u2019re off by almost $3 million. And sitting over here talking about, oh, let me deprive myself of Pilates and let\u2019s not take this trip to Japan. It makes no sense.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:58]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I just keep on underestimating and undercutting and rationalizing down instead of seeing what the real picture is of our finances.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s correct. And it\u2019s honestly depressing. It\u2019s depressing for your partner because there\u2019s no clarity on what it takes to win. It\u2019s just one thing after another. And the goalposts keep moving. And it\u2019s just depressing for you because you constantly are playing small, always.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:32]\u00a0You\u2019re on track to have 7 million bucks and you\u2019re operating as if you make $50,000 a year. It\u2019s not serving you. You would never act this way at work. You couldn\u2019t do your job if you weren\u2019t confident and knew where you stand in the power structure. But your feelings about money are totally at odds with the actual numbers. You\u2019re in a privileged situation with so much money. What a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:00]\u00a0Dillon\u00a0and Carrie are young, 29 and 30 years old, living what should be the most fun, carefree years of their lives, but for some reason, they have chosen to suffer. With their income, they can easily accomplish their dreams. In fact, we just saw them realize they\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0have more than they ever thought, but instead, they are living a life of deprivation and stress and they are not connected over money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:27]\u00a0This is a perfect example of what can happen if you don\u2019t do the second part of living a\u00a0\u200aRich Life.\u00a0The first, know your numbers. You\u00a0got to\u00a0understand the language of finance. But the second, you\u2019ve\u00a0got to\u00a0master your money psychology or you might very well end up with more money than you ever thought, but you still don\u2019t\u00a0enjoy.\u00a0Do you think that they will suddenly wave a magic wand at retirement with their $7.7 million and stop depriving themselves? No, they won\u2019t. Let\u2019s see if I can help them understand that.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Watch this. $11.2 million. What the hell are you going to do with $11.2 million?<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:07]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be able to live so much more lavishly than we do right now.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You guys will not know how to spend $11 million. You will not have the psychological or technical ability to spend it because you don\u2019t have any practice. Carrie is shaking her head like oh-oh.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:22]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s too much. That\u2019s more than we need.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:27]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t even want that. It\u2019s enough.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. All right. I like it. All right.\u00a0Let\u2019s play it then. So we got options. Let\u2019s also not forget that I didn\u2019t even assume any income growth. Let\u2019s just play that out for a second. Hey, Dillon, how much should we say that we\u2019re going to add from your future job into investments per year?<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:46]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe I make 200k and I want to invest like 10 or 15% of that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s make it 20k. 20k a year. All right. Easy math. Instead of 11.2 million, 14.1 million. Carrie, you look like you\u2019re in pain. Is there some\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:02]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what do you want to do about it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:09]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess I need to invest less.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:10]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess you need to go to Pilates.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I actually don\u2019t believe you, and I don\u2019t really think you deep down believe that you don\u2019t want that much, because for you, more always equals winning. What\u2019s really going on here when you react that way?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:24]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That seems like greedy and selfish. That could be used much better elsewhere.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:30]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Very many places. There are a lot of people that would benefit from having that money more than us.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So like perhaps the barista who you tip $10 to because you make so much money, or perhaps the Pilates teacher who you go to and give a Christmas bonus to, a very generous one. Perhaps your husband who you say, \u201cYou take your time, work on your PhD. I want you to feel completely supported.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:58]\u00a0\u201cI know that right now you are heads down on this, and I know that at some point maybe we\u2019re going to have kids and maybe I\u2019ll need to be heads down and I\u2019ll need you to pick up some of the slack. But right now I know that you\u2019re in the thick of it, and I\u2019d love to help.\u201d Isn\u2019t that a point of a partnership, and especially when you have money to make it so easy?<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:19]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Here\u2019s how I would now make decisions about spending. First off, you all realize that you\u2019re going to have a lot of money. In many ways, too much money. So let\u2019s figure it out. Right now, if we look at 30 years of investments, we are down to $7.7 million.<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:37]\u00a0Fantastic. That\u2019s great. But probably more than you need, and we\u2019re not even factoring in Dillon\u2019s additional income, which will boost this thing a lot. So I just start to play with the numbers. I go, \u201cHey, instead of 51,000, what if we did 41,000?\u201d Oh my gosh, we\u2019ll have $6.7 million. That still seems like what?<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:59]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0More than enough.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:00]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0More than we need.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0More than enough. [Bleep] it. Let\u2019s take it down to 31. Oh my gosh, $31,000 a year, we\u2019re going to have $5.7 million. Again, not including Dillon\u2019s contributions. Do you see how ridiculous it is that we are spending hours and hours talking about a 15,000-dollar trip to Japan? It makes no sense. Carrie?<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:26]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. That\u2019s what I wanted to hear. I just freed up $20,000 a year. What do you want to do? First of all, you\u2019re already spending 1,100 bucks a month on eating out.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:40]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0So we want to up that. I think we want to 1,600, the one 250-dollar meal plus a couple extra meals out.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This is where you actually start to make tradeoffs. Your savings goals. You said a vacation. That needs to go up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:55]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably needs to be 1,500, right?<\/p>\n<p>[01:18:59]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re talking about going to Japan in May. It needs to go up even more.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good. I like how you\u2019re thinking.\u00a0Great. 1,800 bucks a month for vacations. To me, that tells me that you really prioritize traveling. By contrast, you do not prioritize an emergency fund, which you told me. You have your reasons. Okay, fine.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:17]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Dog grooming. That\u2019s $150 every eight weeks.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We got the eating out already. We got the trip.\u00a0Pilates. How much is Pilates?\u00a0Per week would be 400 a month,\u00a0right?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:32]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s if I\u2019m doing double time,\u00a0twice a week.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you want to?<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:35]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0But I guess it\u2019s better.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:36]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0Just do it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:36]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I do. I do.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s called abundance. Okay, great. You\u2019re up to 37%. Amazing. Wow. That\u2019s crippling. And then that\u2019s it. What a [Bleep] joke.<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:47]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0He\u2019s like, this is the easiest CSP I\u2019ve ever\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:19:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you see why the numbers themselves are a mere triviality? It\u2019s a joke. That\u2019s why I said I could knock this out in three minutes. You have so much money. You\u2019re still investing $31,000 a year. You\u2019re saving $28,000 a year. Your guilt-free spending is $55,000 a year. What are you taking away from this example right here?<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:15]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not the numbers or the money that\u2019s holding us back. It\u2019s me applying that pressure that we need to save more or else, and turns out we don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:26]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think the most helpful thing was seeing that we will have enough and seeing we\u2019ll have more than enough and that therefore we have more than enough now. And just having that mindset of, we have, we can, and not the mindset of what if everything goes wrong.<\/p>\n<p>[01:20:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Pretty cool to see how once you actually get aligned on what am I afraid of? What are you afraid of? What do we want specifically? How much travel? How much is it going to cost? Is it international? How much are we going to Pilates? Very specific things. And then, and only then do you get to the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:09]\u00a0The numbers are the last part. It\u2019s the values. It\u2019s how you talk about money. It\u2019s the back and forth. And the back and forth is about having fun. It\u2019s not about winning. You\u2019re not here to obliterate your partner. You\u2019re here to connect. It\u2019s to build them up, not to break them down.<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:29]\u00a0You can do every single thing you want. It\u2019s so easy. And I think seeing this, my hope is that you both realize, oh my gosh, we could be doing way more. And why are we spending our time playing so small? Why, Carrie, is my anxiety causing me to say these kinds of things to my partner? I have to fix that.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:21:47]\u00a0Thank you to\u00a0Dillon\u00a0and Carrie for sharing their story. It\u2019s not easy to put your personal information out there for the world to see,\u00a0and\u00a0it takes a lot of courage to come and ask for help. I know this conversation was frustrating at times. It was frustrating for them. It was certainly frustrating for me.\u00a0And hearing one partner put another partner down simply because they earn less is not acceptable. And I hope that Carrie takes that message to heart as she and\u00a0Dillon\u00a0continue to work on their relationship with money and with each other.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:18]\u00a0Breaking out of a scarcity mindset is really hard. You heard it in this conversation. You\u2019ve heard it in others. The stories that we tell ourselves often come from childhood,\u00a0and they can feel like they define us.\u00a0In Carrie\u2019s case, financial insecurity as a kid still shows up for her as an adult. And I\u2019m glad I was able to help her make that connection.<\/p>\n<p>[01:22:40]\u00a0Now,\u00a0will she continue making progress? Will she use some new tools to manage her anxiety? That\u2019s entirely up to her. The fact that\u00a0Dillon\u00a0and Carrie see a therapist regularly should help on that process, and I\u2019m rooting for them.\u00a0Now let\u2019s check out their follow-up videos. Up first,\u00a0Dillon\u2019s follow-up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:00]\u00a0<strong>Dillon:<\/strong>\u00a0My biggest takeaway was that I should focus on both mine and Carrie\u2019s feelings and our needs as a couple. I have always felt gratitude for Carrie working really hard, prioritizing our finances because she cares about our goals as a couple and as we start to form a family.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:23]\u00a0But I guess I\u2019ve always just let that go unsaid. Hearing that is really important to her, and so that is something that I plan to add to my life, is just that spoken, shared gratitude for Carrie. The numbers are kind of secondary to that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:23:38]\u00a0So we basically are going to reduce how much we spend on home improvement by about $1,000 a month. And we\u2019ll also reduce how much Carrie invests by about $1,600 a month. And we\u2019ll use that money for fun stuff. We added up every single fun thing we could think of, and it still came out to less than that 2,600-dollar figure.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:03]\u00a0I\u2019ve always been a person who likes having money in investments, and I think the biggest surprise is that having more in liquid will help us spend money. And that\u2019s our challenge, is just how can we spend money? It\u2019s just in a savings account that we\u2019ve designated to be spent on this category that helps us spend money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now\u00a0Carrie\u2019s follow-up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:27]\u00a0<strong>Carrie:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels very cheesy to say, but I honestly feel like the conversation was life changing for me. The main thing in the way of myself and my \u200aRich Life is just me. I have this artificial feeling of scarcity and that we don\u2019t have enough and that we need to save more, but that that\u2019s really not reflective of our financial situation.<\/p>\n<p>[01:24:50]\u00a0And the best thing I can do is get out of my own way by choosing to spend money on the things that make my life easier or happier. And for us, that\u2019s looked like putting less money into our investments, and that just gets added into our additional income that we can spend on things that we like.<\/p>\n<p>[01:25:12]\u00a0So we\u2019ve added over $500 to our monthly budget for fitness. So I can go to all the fancy Pilates classes that I want. And over $400 on just massages, manicures, and pedicures. And all of these different kinds of self-care have made, honestly, a noticeable difference in my anxiety levels, so much so that even my therapist noticed, and it\u2019s really had a positive impact on Dillon and my relationship and how we feel about how we\u2019re balancing the workload at the house and how we\u2019re supporting each other. So I honestly do feel like it has been life changing and really, really impactful for our relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Lots of things I love in these follow-ups. First, really specific numbers and changes. I love that. That\u2019s what I always hope for. But even deeper than that, a lot of realizations about the way that they\u2019ve interacted with money, especially Carrie. I really appreciate couples who come on the show and take to heart what we discuss and then send me follow-ups.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:25]\u00a0My team just got another update from them a few days ago. Here\u2019s what Dillon wrote.<\/p>\n<p>[01:26:29]\u00a0We just booked tickets to Japan. Yes, they were on Scott\u2019s Cheap Flights, but we would\u2019ve booked them even if not. Okay. I will take that as progress, even if the flights were booked for a discount. Carrie and Dillon, I\u2019m wishing you the best.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dillon (30) and Carrie (29) are navigating a tricky dynamic in their relationship: income disparity. Carrie works in tech, earning a high salary, but her anxiety about money has her constantly second-guessing their financial situation. Dillon, a PhD student living on a $40K annual stipend, is growing increasingly frustrated with Carrie\u2019s dismissive comments and her [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118833","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118833","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118833"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118833\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118833"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118833"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}