{"id":118872,"date":"2024-08-13T13:09:49","date_gmt":"2024-08-13T17:09:49","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118872"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:26:31","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:26:31","slug":"169-emery-annie","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/169-emery-annie\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 169. \u201cWe flew to Lisbon for Taylor Swift, but my $5 beer is the problem?\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe flew to Lisbon for Taylor Swift, but my $5 beer is the problem?\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/waB4WLaOydg\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/5sEBVizYW9bq2pCQdAASm5?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Annie\u2019s 39 and Emery is 43. Although they have a high combined income, Annie makes 5x more than Emery. This leads to frustration over small purchases, like an extra drink at dinner\u2014while they\u2019re on vacation in Europe. Emery also manages their two rental properties even though they earn $0. He\u2019s desperate to sell, but Annie is convinced of their long term value.<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Mint Mobile | To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/mintmobile.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/mintmobile.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Superhuman | Get a free month of lightning fast email at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/try.sprh.mn\/ramitsethi\">https:\/\/try.sprh.mn\/ramitsethi<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Babbel | For our listeners only, get 60% off your Babbel subscription at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/babbel.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/Babbel.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In today\u2019s conversation\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:02]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s a distance between us and our communication. We have very different relationship with money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I like security. She\u2019s more entrepreneurial.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meet Annie and Emery. Annie is 39. She\u2019s an optimist. How many cards you have?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:14]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Too many. I don\u2019t even know. It did pay for our plane tickets, which is nice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emery is 43, and he\u2019s a dreamer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:21]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I just wanted to get out there and build something. Every time I tried to get something going, I just felt like I had the rug pulled out from underneath me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Their imbalance in earning is not letting them dream about a shared Rich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:31]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s definitely been challenging knowing that I\u2019m the sole person providing for the family.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:36]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m contributing the way\u2013 I don\u2019t want to be a stay-at-home dad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s this feeling of unfairness.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:41]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0He\u2019s been in media five years and it hasn\u2019t really panned out. What if I don\u2019t want to be the breadwinner?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They have never seriously talked about what they want their money to do. And you have rental properties as well. How many properties?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:52]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0An Airbnb and a regular rental. It\u2019s a lot of maintenance.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much income do they produce every month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:57]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0We break even.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:58]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>I didn\u2019t know it broke even. I thought we were earning 40,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019ve been fighting about these properties for five years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:04]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0For me, that\u2019s our biggest point of tension. I want it gone so bad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:07]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0The more assets you have, the better it\u2019s going to grow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can they untangle their complicated financial lives and build a Rich Life together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:14]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I can\u2019t control how much he makes. I just have to let him do his thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:18]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re not on the same page\u00a0at all.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s find out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:20]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>We went on vacation. We have a budget of, say, $2,000 but when we get there, it just felt like we\u2019re not really saving a lot of money. And we would go out to eat, and I\u2019m not a big drinker, so he would go out and have beers and cocktails, which is fine, but it did add up and we came home and we spent double what we were hoping for because we did go from city to city. We also eat out pretty often. That\u2019s one of our big things, is we do splurge on food.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Okay. Where\u2019d you go on vacation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:08]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Went to Paris and went all the way down to Lisbon.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Nice. Okay. So you both went to Paris and Lisbon. How long was the trip in order for this budget to be 2,000 bucks?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:26]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0It was 10 days, 11 days.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Is this a common recurrence, like you pick a number and then you end up spending more than you had planned?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:35]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0We actually generally don\u2019t even pick a number. We don\u2019t really save for our vacation. That\u2019s part of the problem. We usually spend as we go. We\u2019re pretty frugal. I usually book hotels last minute, so it\u2019s way discounted, and we take trains. We don\u2019t really spend a lot of money in hotels.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:04]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I thought that it was a reasonable budget, but it would probably be hard to stay within those confines. But I figured let\u2019s give it a shot. If nothing else, it was a challenge, and let\u2019s see if we can do it once we get there. Our commitment to the challenge tended to fade at times on both ends. We were there for a Taylor Swift concert.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:24]\u00a0That\u2019s the reason why we went to Lisbon to begin with, and so the trip wasn\u2019t really in the budget anyway, but we had Taylor Swift tickets, so we\u2019re like, well, I guess we\u2019re going to Europe. But I think she brought it the point of the beer. So we\u2019d order a meal, which you get a table full of fresh seafood for $60 in Lisbon. It\u2019s amazing. And then I\u2019d order a 5-dollar beer, and the 5-dollar beer was the thing that would later be mentioned.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:53]\u00a0For me, that\u2019s one of the themes of why we reached out to you on the show from my end, was there\u2019s an inconsistency in terms of when we choose to feel tension and express tension to each other. And sometimes I just don\u2019t know when it\u2019s going to happen, and it comes out of nowhere, and it\u2019s like, okay, I didn\u2019t know that that beer or was that bottle of tequila we\u2019re buying for this party going to be a problem? Sometimes I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What\u2019s the problem?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:22]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, now we\u2019re over budget.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know where you were in Paris and stuff, but, okay. I will say, if you have a $2,000 budget for 10 days, it\u2019s not college backpacking prices, but it\u2019s not two working adults who are going out \u201call day.\u201d Right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:44]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0So generally, on a monthly basis, Emery\u2019s income has been pretty low, and when we do go on vacation or if we do go to these things, we don\u2019t have a lot of flexibility when it comes to those things just because he\u2019s still trying to get his business going. But I still have to see that and see where that goes. It\u2019s been a few years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How many years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:19]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0At least four years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s four years of Emery earning a relatively low income. Is that what you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:27]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:28]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that a source of tension?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:31]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. I feel like that\u2019s probably the highest source of tension when we do talk about finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:40]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess it\u2019s not the first time he tried building his business, so I do have some hesitancy when it comes to that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What do you think is the main challenge when it comes to money in your relationship, Annie, if you had to boil it down to a sentence?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:03]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we have a different approach when it comes to money. I am more financially motivated. And don\u2019t get me wrong, Emery works really hard. We do have rental properties as well, so he does work on that, and he does take on more of the household chores and everything, and the kids. We do have two smaller kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:28]\u00a0So he does take on a lot more of that responsibility, but definitely, the difference in income has been a challenge. I do have friends where both parents are working or in a professional environment and they seem to still be doing well and still being able to take care of the household.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:51]\u00a0It\u2019s definitely been challenging for me knowing that I am the sole person providing for the family, and I really wish that Emery could as well. I know he does it in other ways, but not financially.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you want him to be more of a financial contributor?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:17]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Correct.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And how long have you wanted this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:21]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Forever, since we met.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve been together 18 years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:26]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think are the issues so far? Here\u2019s what I notice. An unrealistic amount of money set aside for an international trip.\u00a0The tail wagging the dog, meaning they set an unrealistic amount, and then they say, we went over budget. One person who earns a \u201clow income,\u201d and maybe some gender dynamics, although I can\u2019t know for sure yet. Let me find out more by asking about\u00a0Emery\u2019s job.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:54]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I started getting into the video production, which is what the business that I\u2019m in now. Before that, I sold insurance. I sold real estate. I did okay at both of those. My income was closer to hers, not as consistent. So because mine wasn\u2019t as consistent, I didn\u2019t feel like mine was valued as much, and it was only really brought up when it was lower.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:21]\u00a0So after the ups and downs, I said, can I go back to school? Went back to school, got my master\u2019s in multimedia journalism, and had a job going, and I was picking up contracted jobs, and then COVID hit, shut down all the contracts.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:38]\u00a0Nobody was hiring for anything in my field, and our kids were out of school, so I had to be the one to stay home. Her job was consistent. She could work remote. Of course, it hit my ego a bit. I like spending valuable time with the kids, but I was just always really frustrated.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:56]\u00a0I just wanted to get out there and build something. And over the next few years, she sometimes thinks of it as an excuse, like I\u2019ve been making the same excuse for years. But there would be incidences where I would get something going and then my son\u2019s school would call. Somebody\u2019s got COVID. We\u2019re shutting down for two weeks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:16]\u00a0All my appointments had to cancel. Over the few years, every time I tried to get something going, something that looked like momentum, I just felt like I had the rug pulled out from underneath me left and right.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back after this short break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:34]\u00a0Now, back to the show<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Annie, any reactions to hearing Emery\u2019s description of his career path?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:41]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve heard it before, so it\u2019s not new to me. I agree with what he was saying. Our biggest tensions when we do have tension is, okay, if you have all of these reasons why you\u2019re not able to make more income, do something else or get a W-2 job. You don\u2019t need to go out there and do it on your own.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:12]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0To me, from where we\u2019re at right now, things are so complicated that I just want to not be so complicated for a little bit so that I could just focus in on a few things, including the time with the children and quality of life with the kids and not so many things.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So far, it seems like\u00a0Emery\u00a0is a dreamer. A dreamer is someone who believes success is right around the corner with their next gig or their next deal. Dreamers tend to jump from one thing to another, rarely sticking with the hard part of developing excellence, and dreamers are extremely hard to be in relationships with.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:52]\u00a0Interestingly, there\u2019s another clue I don\u2019t quite yet understand. It turns out that Annie and\u00a0Emery\u00a0both, not just\u00a0Emery, tried to create a documentary which has not yet made any money, and they tell me that they have plans for a deep dive travel blog equipped with high-end production, which is\u00a0going to\u00a0take a major time investment.\u00a0Again, very unclear ROI, and this is coming from both of\u00a0them, not just\u00a0Emery.\u00a0Emery\u00a0then shares something with me that adds a lot more nuance to this discussion.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And you have rental properties as well. How many properties?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:26]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Two other properties.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are they co-owned by both of you or by one of you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:30]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Both of us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How much income do they produce every month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:34]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, we break-even.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm? That can\u2019t be real. Estate is only about profit. If you\u2019re breaking even, you just raise your rent 25%, no problem. Right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:45]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, so one\u2019s an Airbnb and the other one is a regular rental. We have old houses, so it\u2019s a lot of maintenance. So it doesn\u2019t feel like we\u2019re making a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. And then Emery, you\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:00]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t know it broke even, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:02]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I thought we were earning 40,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a big difference.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:08]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve had a friend of mine who\u2019s an investor as well ask me the same question, and I said, I think it\u2019s making about 40,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you the primary property manager for these two properties?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:19]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. So another thing, you get a job going and then all of a sudden you\u2019ve got to take two weeks off from that potential job, whether it\u2019s documentary editing or whatever, to go deal with broken pipes that froze over during the winter or to deal with contractors and to go\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you guys have these properties?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:37]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0We lived in them and we moved out of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:39]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we lived in both of them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Why not sell them, out of curiosity? I\u2019m not saying right or wrong, just why not\u00a0sell them?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:47]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0For investment purposes. It\u2019s increased in value since we\u2019ve bought them, and we\u2019re able to rent them out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. You\u2019re able to rent them out for break-even?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:00]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Long-term it\u2019s not break-even, but short-term it feels like we\u2019re break-even every month. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But break-even is one thing, but also Emery\u2019s point is valid. If Emery is the property manager and then he can\u2019t go to work or he can\u2019t do other things because the demands of the property, that itself has its own cost, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:21]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So is it worth it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:28]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Especially the one, I want it gone so bad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, you want to sell it? And Annie, what is your perspective on that?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Before we hear her answer, I need a quick favor from you. If you are enjoying the show, please hit that subscribe button. It really helps me and my team.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:45]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like we\u2019ll have tax burdens if we sell it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Aren\u2019t you an accountant?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:54]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Haven\u2019t you heard the phrase don\u2019t let the tax tail wag the dog? Come on. I know you have that hung up on your computer screen. Okay, so you have a different perspective. You want to keep them. Emery wants to sell them. That\u2019s a pretty big source of tension in the relationship, I would imagine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:10]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0For me, that\u2019s our biggest point of tension.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:13]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0The one is three Airbnb units. So it\u2019s a constant management of that. So that\u2019s part of the thing, is you have to have it up to a certain standard, have certain things purchased all the time, and she\u2019s managing managers and then turnover of Airbnb, and are the guests happy, those kinds of things as well?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:38]\u00a0So we\u2019ll be on vacation sitting in Cancun at a resort having a cocktail, and we will get endless Airbnb messages. She\u2019ll spend hours going back and forth from Airbnb to the guest, solving problems because this guest wasn\u2019t happy about this and that. It\u2019s a huge time suck too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:02]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I do know that it takes away from his work or him trying to work, but to me, it\u2019s not like he goes out there all the time. I feel like it does. It\u2019s a few hours\u2019 month, but sometimes we don\u2019t go out there at all. I think on average it\u2019s not a lot of time to take care of the houses.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:29]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0But they\u2019re neglected. So if you go over to the house at any given moment, there\u2019s weeds growing up everywhere. There\u2019s branches falling off of trees. There\u2019s moss growing on the roof. There\u2019s things where I should be over there more, and if I\u2019m able to be over there more and treat it like, let\u2019s say, a part-time job, 20 hours a week over there, then I think we could get it to a point where we\u2019re maybe charging more per unit, but it just doesn\u2019t seem worth it at the end of the day.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:57]\u00a0And she says a couple of hours a week, but it could be, like this winter we had some pipes break that was unexpected that caused a lot of damage. We had to be over there for a long time. It\u2019s like when my son\u2019s school would close down for COVID. We didn\u2019t expect that coming.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:15]\u00a0And it\u2019s not just a day. It\u2019s two weeks until everybody\u2019s tested negative for COVID. For this it\u2019s when all the water stops leaking out of the house and all the sheet rock is put back up. I realize we need a job that needs to be done. It\u2019s not just if we don\u2019t want to hire that out to somebody else and I have to take care of it or we choose for me to take care of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:37]\u00a0There\u2019s usually maybe a few hundred dollars worth of new tools that need to be purchased for that, another couple hundred dollars worth of supplies and a couple other things. So out nowhere, we just spent $700, $800 on supplies and tools for this new project. Average it out, I\u2019m probably over there five to six hours a week, but that could be 50 hours one week and one hour the next week.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re spending more on your properties than you probably think. Okay. Congratulations. You\u2019re like every single American. All right, fine. I\u2019m with you. You\u2019re spending more than you think. Your return is probably lower than you think. Yes, that\u2019s real estate. Annie, any disagreement with Emery?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:16]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long have you two been disagreeing about these properties?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:22]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Five years.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you notice how\u00a0Emery\u00a0thought they were making $40,000 a year with their properties and it turns out they\u2019re breaking even? Was anyone else shocked by that? To tell you the truth, I wasn\u2019t. That\u2019s because people think that humans are like robots.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:38]\u00a0We go to the grocery store. We pull out a calculator, carefully compare prices, then we make an informed purchase decision. That\u2019s the way we talk about money. We need to give you the information so you can make an informed decision. Guess what? That\u2019s not how people work. People are much more like amoebas who respond to light stimulus.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:58]\u00a0We see something. It\u2019s shiny. We go towards it. Except that unlike amoebas, our shiny light tends to be a seven-seat SUV that Americans buy because they think they need it. What I\u2019m saying is that very few people actually understand how their money works.\u00a0Emery\u00a0was off by $40,000 per year, and that\u2019s on houses he\u00a0fucking\u00a0hates.\u00a0Most of us operate far more on vibes than on numbers when it comes to our finances. Now there\u2019s another issue I\u00a0want to\u00a0point out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:28]\u00a0They\u2019ve been fighting about these properties for five years. Five years of fights, resentment, and worst of all, driving to the most godforsaken place on this planet. It\u2019s called Home Depot. Listen, I don\u2019t mind things taking a while to change, but five years of major disagreement is way too long. When you are in a situation like this, get help.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:48]\u00a0Hire a therapist, hire a coach, apply to talk to me, whatever. I want you to get impatient with your lives because five years is way too long to be stuck. All right, now back to the conversation where I wanted to understand more about how they use money day to day.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How many cards do you have?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:05]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Too many.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How many?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:07]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t even know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:09]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0At least 10.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:12]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0And I don\u2019t use them all. I don\u2019t use them all.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. A lot of defensiveness here. I hadn\u2019t even finished my sentence. I don\u2019t use them all. I\u2019m just saying, it\u2019s not like I use them all.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:22]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I use them for points.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You use them. If you have 10 cards, I\u2019m pretty sure you\u2019re using them, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:29]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I use the credit cards. Usually, we have one or two that are our main cards. I try to optimize, and I try to travel hack.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love optimizing. I need to squeeze every\u00a0fucking\u00a0mile and cent from these credit card companies.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:49]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0It did pay for our trip. It paid for our plane tickets, which is nice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t mind. First of all, I don\u2019t mind credit card points. I don\u2019t mind it. You know what else could pay for your flight? Your 225,000-dollar joint income.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:11]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t even know where it goes. I want to simplify, but it\u2019s hard for me when I try to optimize things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because you\u2019re an optimizer. I\u2019m an optimizer too, but I\u2019m a reformed optimizer. I could sit in spreadsheets and I could calculate this stuff and run all these analyses, and when I\u2019m 65, I\u2019ll have this much money and blah, blah, blah, 4%. But at a certain point it actually becomes dysfunctional because you spend more time talking about the future, planning about the future, worrying about what can go wrong than actually saying, hey, I built this amazing thing. It\u2019s working. It\u2019s good. I\u2019m going to turn the page and actually enjoy my life. Have you encountered that feeling?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:56]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I have not felt that feeling.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Do you want to? Most optimizers do not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:04]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I definitely want the feeling, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold that thought. We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:10]\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Would you be willing to not get as many points as you\u2019re currently getting? Look at that smile.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:20]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0She\u2019s like,\u00a0motherfucker. What is he talking about? Would you be willing to sacrifice, I don\u2019t know, 200,000 points a year, I don\u2019t know how many points, in order for a much simpler infrastructure?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:34]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I do want to do that. And even with our guilt-free spending, it would be nice. I know he mentions it would be nice if my guilt-free spending is on a debit card because I\u2019m less likely to spend it if it\u2019s on a debit card versus a credit card.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your actual behavior with money is actually causing you negative ramifications. I just don\u2019t think you\u2019re making the connection. And the reason you\u2019re not making the connection is that you are so driven by optimizing everything. You\u2019re going to optimize yourself into total unhappiness.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:10]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:12]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0It just feels like the points just appear, and I don\u2019t see her spending tons of her time managing it or anything. It almost feels like it\u2019s a natural little side hobby that she\u2019s doing, and that part doesn\u2019t seem to bring her a lot stress.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Look at the biggest smile I\u2019ve ever seen on Annie\u2019s face. Annie, let me ask you a question. Would you rather be complimented as being a great mother or a great points optimizer? Tell the truth.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:37]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0A great mother, of course.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you, Emery. I appreciate that. Annie, I could tell you appreciate that. Look, we got to have some fun with money anyway. Sure, there are things to fix. It\u2019s not life or death, at least in your situation. You have money. I do think it\u2019s over-engineered. If you want to fix it, I think we have a good shot at being able to make some big changes here. But what I think is missing so far is actual individual guilt-free spending money. Am I reading that correctly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:13]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:14]\u00a0Okay, I think I was wrong. I started off by saying I suspected that\u00a0Emery\u00a0was a dreamer, and I got that clue from him jumping job to job never really following through. Now I think it\u2019s a lot more complicated than that. He might be a dreamer, but I don\u2019t know that yet, and I don\u2019t want to put a label and jump to conclusions.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:32]\u00a0What I do know is that he has a house that\u2019s taking up an unpredictable and demanding amount of time for him, which makes it hard for him to focus on other things. And then there\u2019s Annie who makes the bulk of the household income and she loves optimizing, but the optimizing has gone too far.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:47]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick look at their numbers in the Conscious Spending Plan. You can follow along by downloading your own CSP for free at iwt.com\/csp. Assets $2,035,000; investments, $236,507; savings $2,500; debt, $1,060,000, for a total net worth of $1,214,007.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emery, can you read me the combined monthly income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:19]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a018,600.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Partner one, I\u2019m assuming that\u2019s you, Annie, earns 15,600 per month. And partner two, I assume that\u2019s you, Emery, earns 3,000 per month, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:32]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s just look at the rest of your numbers. Fixed costs at 58%. I have no comments if you\u2019re at 58%. You\u2019re within parameters. Let\u2019s just quickly look through this. Savings are at 4%, long-term emergency fund at 500 bucks. How come you only have $2,500 in your savings? What\u2019s up with that? Don\u2019t tell me you don\u2019t know where the money\u2019s going. You have the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:54]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0To me, the stock amount is savings for me because I can just cash it out whenever I need it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. Do you see, Annie, that your desire to own assets to constantly have your money working for you is causing you unexpected ramifications?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:19]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0If I use it as a savings account, yes. Yes, I do. I\u2019m not putting it towards vacation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:29]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s just random.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Explain it to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:31]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0So to me, stocks is short-term, and I can use that towards other things that I need savings for.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me give you a technical example. You\u2019re currently investing $940 a month post-tax.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:45]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You\u2019re doing $300 a month for stocks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:50]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s the savings part that I was thinking.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why don\u2019t you just put that and start saving for an upcoming vacation? By the end of the year, you could have almost $4,000 saved.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:02]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I am semi treating it as such, but I am getting more money back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No, that\u2019s sloppy. That\u2019s sloppy, and you know it. Stocks are not savings accounts. They\u2019re also subject to a lot of volatility and all kinds of tax implications when you sell.\u00a0And your guilt-free spending is at 26%. That\u2019s over $3,500.\u00a0And I think you did some calculations down here. It looks like you actually probably spend more. Okay, the way you described it to me, you are a paragon of frugality. You spend $2,000 over 10 days in Paris. At least that\u2019s the budget. Oh, you are?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:47]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, we doubled. We [Inaudible] 2,000, but we ended up spending four.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think you guys are missing the point. I think you\u2019re missing the point. According to this, you\u2019re spending 35% of take-home pay from a 223,000-dollar income, which is a lot of money, on guilt-free spending. So I\u2019m like, cool. If you can afford it, great. That\u2019s $4,800 a month on guilt-free spending. Where\u2019s it going? Because having $50 of beers\u00a0and getting last minute hotels, that\u2019s not almost $5,000 a month on guilt-free spending. Where\u2019s it going?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:44]\u00a0I guess I\u2019m struck, Annie, by you worrying about price of a drink on vacation or something like that when there\u2019s just literally thousands of dollars missing on a monthly basis.\u00a0You see my surprise? Again, if you made 50k, this would be a different conversation. You make $225,000 a year, and then you spent the money, and now you feel guilty about it. Why go that route?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Something isn\u2019t adding up here.\u00a0We started off talking about 5-dollar beers in Europe, but from looking at their CSP, it\u2019s clear that they can buy any amount of drinks they want. This is when I really started honing in on Annie\u2019s relationship with money.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Annie, I\u2019m confused. You have a lot of money in the household, most of which you earn. Do you feel worried about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:45]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you worry about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:49]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0That we can\u2019t afford things, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is there a number where you would be okay to not worry about the price of a beer?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:02]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I wish Emery would contribute more towards that type of expense. I guess that is a difference for me. He\u2019s going out and he\u2019s going on vacation, or if he\u2019s going out to eat or he\u2019s doing all these things, it would be nice that he has to think about affording it. A lot of times I\u2019m the one who has to think about, hey, can we afford this? Can you go out to Vegas with your friends? Can you go out to these bachelor parties? Could you do this? So it would be nice if he contributes that way financially, where he has to figure that out and I don\u2019t have to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think there\u2019s something deeper, Annie. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s $1,000 that Emery needed four years ago. That\u2019s meaningless. What\u2019s really going on here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:57]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0He consistently needs new equipment a lot of times. He had a drone, and we need to get a drone. The drone flew away into the river. We now have to replace the drone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:13]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a couple hundred. But it\u2019s just those little things or I guess bigger things that add up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Annie, you\u2019re making my point for me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:22]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s your point?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Number one, why doesn\u2019t he have his own individual guilt-free spending money? And number two, why are we talking about $200 expenses when you make $223,000 a year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:32]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Our guilt-free spending is all only, what, 3,000? I don\u2019t even remember.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Per month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:40]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Per month. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If he takes 20% of that, or $600 a month, he could do whatever he wants with that. He should be getting his own drone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:53]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019s stopping the two of you from setting that up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:00]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0We just never got around to it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I just ask a question? If the roles were reversed and Emery was earning $180,000 a year and, Annie, you were earning far less, you were starting up a business, what kind of conversation would we be having right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:20]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. I can\u2019t imagine myself in that scenario.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Try for a second. Let\u2019s say you were taking care of the kids. You were moonlighting and helping out with the properties. Emery was working, making 180,000 plus, and he said like, whenever we go out, she wants to buy a couple of drinks, and it really aggravates me because why isn\u2019t she making enough to pay for it? What kind of conversation would this be?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:48]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think the difference is it\u2019s not like he\u2019s a stay-at-home dad. We still pay for daycare. That still comes out of the accounts. I guess if the rules were reversed, I don\u2019t know, it\u2019ll be more common because I\u2019m a woman.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How would you feel if he was like, yeah, you fix those pipes, but really you only work five hours a week on average, and you really need to be making more? Meanwhile, he\u2019s making $180,000 a year. How would you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:23]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I need to get a different job that would make me that much money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:30]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I know what you\u2019re saying. I would not act that way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But it\u2019s such an interesting response that your response, I don\u2019t think you were joking, was I would need to find a job that would make at least as much as him. Is that what you were just intimated right there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:47]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Because what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:50]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I take that back. If he was making that much money, it\u2019ll be nice, and I don\u2019t have to worry about it. I could do whatever the heck I want, and that would be nice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Okay. I believe that. I love the honesty there. And by the way, isn\u2019t that what Emery\u2019s doing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:11]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now we\u2019re getting real.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:17]\u00a0Now back to Annie and Emery.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You said if the roles were reversed, it would be nice for me to earn money, but really, I could relax a little bit and do whatever I wanted. That\u2019s what he\u2019s doing. Yet it\u2019s a problem to you as the higher earner. I\u2019m not asking you to change the way you feel. I\u2019m simply trying to understand your feelings themselves. Why do you feel that way in your position, but if the roles were reversed, you would not feel that way at all?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:46]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s just me feeling like I\u2019m contributing. So if I\u2019m the contributor, a big contributor, then it doesn\u2019t feel like we\u2019re equal or we\u2019re\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is money the primary way that you contribute in a relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:08]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0No. It\u2019s tension, but the reason why I haven\u2019t been like, no, you have to get a 100,000-dollar job or anything is because he does contribute in different ways, like the properties, etc. Part-time job is fine. I don\u2019t mind him having a part-time job, but it\u2019s just not consistent or it\u2019s not, I don\u2019t know, I guess enough for me.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think this is Annie\u2019s fault, and I don\u2019t think this is Emery\u2019s fault, even though I previously described him as a dreamer. I think the two of them simply do not have a shared vision of a\u00a0Rich Life. They see money differently, and it\u2019s very obvious that they have never seriously talked about what they want their money to do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:59]\u00a0You can tell because\u00a0Emery\u00a0didn\u2019t even know how much the houses make, and Annie was complaining about 5-dollar beers. This is how so many relationships get into trouble around money. There\u2019s this feeling of unfairness, which slowly calcifies into resentment. The couple never really talks about the real issues.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:17]\u00a0One of them will bring something up, but the other doesn\u2019t receive it well, and they don\u2019t have the skills to get curious and to talk to each other about the true issues around money. And then when we finally talk about it, we are not talking about the real issues. We\u2019re saying, why did you spend $76 at Target? Or why did you spend $5 on a beer?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:37]\u00a0And soon you blink your eyes and 30 years have gone by. This couple makes a ton of money. They own multiple properties. This conversation is not about a lack of money, but here\u2019s why I featured them, and here\u2019s why I want you to listen. Because it shows how easily you can fight about money, even when you have more than enough.\u00a0The way that we feel about money is highly uncorrelated to the amount you have in your bank account.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s not necessarily about the dollar amount, if I\u2019m reading you right, but it is about what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:11]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s about seeing that he wants to contribute more than what he\u2019s contributing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is there a number? What does that look like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:21]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t have a number in mind, just more. I think when I filled out the conscious spending plan, it would be nice if he makes 100,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Didn\u2019t you just say two minutes ago, I\u2019m not saying he has to make 100,000 a year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:38]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that what I said? I don\u2019t even know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So you don\u2019t know the number, but it\u2019s more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:47]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I just throw out some numbers? What if he made 50,000 a year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:51]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s great. And that\u2019s what he was making full-time when he was employed. That is fine as a starting point.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What if he made that\u2013 oh, sorry, what was that last thing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:06]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0As a starting point. However, if our situation changes, what if I lose my job? What if I want to do something else? Then I would want him to make more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What if he makes 50k and he has a full-time W2 job and he can\u2019t go and fix the pipes?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:28]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Then we\u2019ll actually have money to fix the pipes because he is making at least 50k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Nice. Okay. That\u2019s a good answer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:36]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0So I would be going to a job for 40 to 50 hours a week, making 50,000 a year so that we can give a lot of that money over to contractors, which are going to charge four times, five times more than it\u2019s going to cost me to go repair the thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Listen, Emery, you can\u2019t have it all. All right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:54]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s number one. And number two is like, what\u2019s the purpose of all of this? If we\u2019re being candid, you don\u2019t need to earn a cent, technically. Your household can run on one income. Annie, do you recognize that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:08]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, and it\u2019s felt like it has.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So would you like to take a fresh approach to this? I\u2019m giving you the chance.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:16]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What would you like to say to Annie?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:18]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I would like for us to declutter our lives so I can focus on my business, and I would also like to see you having more space in your life for things that you enjoy without feeling guilty for them. And I want to know if that\u2019s possible.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:37]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. We\u2019ve talked about this before, the extra amount to pay for property manager and now contractors. It would be good to see you having more of that income to pay for that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What are you asking for Annie, specifically? Be specific.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:01]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I would like him to thrive in his business and or get a full-time job in order for us to not have to manage other things and simplify our life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:13]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0But the thing is, is that property is falling apart and it\u2019s going to continuously cost us more. It\u2019s just taking up so much of our bandwidth I don\u2019t see the value. I feel like we\u2019ve gotten the value out of this property, and it\u2019s hard for me to feel motivated to want to do anything to save this place when it just feels like it\u2019s not worth it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:42]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0To me, it\u2019s worth it. I think even if you put in 50 to 100 grand into that property, it will work much better. But I don\u2019t want to take out a loan when I can\u2019t pay the payments for it. It\u2019s a waiting game. It\u2019s like, okay, we want to update this, but I can\u2019t take out a loan because we don\u2019t have enough money to pay off that loan monthly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:11]\u00a0If I could see that you are earning a lot more money and you\u2019re on a more consistent basis, it would be easier for me to be like, yes, we\u2019ll update it. We\u2019ll be able to hire a property manager. We\u2019ll be able to hire contractors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I point something out?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:30]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You two are playing so small right now. You\u2019re obsessed with this one property. You\u2019re centering your entire lives around this one property. Look at it. The amount of time you each spend, time away from your kids, daycare costs, one partner having to go get a full-time job and potentially give up their income, another taking time on vacations in Mexico to respond to Airbnb inquiries. All of this, and you never stop to ask why? Why are we even doing this? Is it important? Do we need it? Do we enjoy it? First of all, who enjoys that property in this house? Raise your hand.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:14]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I enjoy the gains. I enjoy having an investment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Annie, I think you might be an optimizer who has taken it a little too far. Do you realize that? Let me give you an example. Are you aware of how much money you\u2019re going to have when you retire?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:33]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Instead, you worry about the price of beers. You want gains. You want your husband to go get a job, which I don\u2019t mind wanting your husband to get a job. I don\u2019t mind that at all, but also that you can pay for a property manager. Do you see how it seems like the tail\u2019s wagging the dog?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:56]\u00a0You have this property and now you\u2019re recentering your entire lives around it when the proper way to do this is you should decide the kind of life you want and then your investments serve you. Can I show you what\u2019s happening with your numbers right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:12]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, please.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Here\u2019s a simple compound interest calculator. The two of you have $236,000 invested, and just for conservative numbers, you\u2019re investing, let\u2019s say $40,000 a year. How much are you going to have by the time you retire, Annie? Any idea?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:29]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I have no idea.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0$3.99 million. And that\u2019s just if you currently keep up the way you are. We did not include if you were to sell one or both of these properties and put that number in here. You want to do the math real quick? If you sold both properties just right now, today, how much would you take home?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:50]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably a million.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You serious? A million bucks. That\u2019s like after taxes and everything?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:57]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think so.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Holy\u00a0shit. All right. Watch this. I\u2019m just going to literally add a one in front of your number, so instead of 236,000, it\u2019s now $1.2 million in principle. You want to see what happens to this number, 25 years? What do you think? Annie, you want to guess?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:19]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a010.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0$9.4 million. What the hell are you guys doing fighting over who\u2019s going to rake the leaves? You are playing so small. Why are you doing this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:43]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0This is our day to day.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:44]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I wish we weren\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But why are you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:50]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it served us for a while and then it stopped serving us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:56]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve always thought that the more assets you have, the better, and if you have assets, keep them and let it grow. And I\u2019ve always thought if you have rental income, and I have low interest rates right now, that it\u2019s going to grow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:20]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I do think that the other one\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not about one versus the other. It has nothing to do with this. You can keep one. It\u2019s not relevant. this is you going back into the weeds again. Listen, I\u2019m not telling you to sell the properties. You can. You can sell one. You can keep them all. That\u2019s your choice. It\u2019s your money, your investments. Assets are good in general, but what these assets are doing to you is bad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:45]\u00a0It\u2019s actually terrible. In all the time I had to prompt you to have the conversation together, I didn\u2019t notice either of you ask the other, hey, what do you want? It was just one person going to their corner of the ring and saying, here\u2019s what I don\u2019t want to do. Here\u2019s what I want. Here\u2019s why you\u2019re wrong. Not once did either of you say, hey, what would you really like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:07]\u00a0Let\u2019s zoom out for a second. What excites you? What\u2019s your Rich Life? What could we do together? You guys are obsessed with this freaking house. And the funniest thing is that you don\u2019t even need it. You could literally tear the house down today, make zero money, and you would still be multimillionaires.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:28]\u00a0Annie, the longer you go thinking that Emery needs to make more money so that it can go to cover the property, you are still playing small. It\u2019s like someone saying, the more money I make, the more loads of laundry I can do. It\u2019s like, okay, but why are you measuring your life in terms of loads of laundry?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This is one reason that I always insist you have a crystal-clear vision of your\u00a0Rich Life. You can adjust it over time. Your vision will definitely change, but you need to know what you\u2019re working towards. Because like so many couples on this podcast, if you don\u2019t have a vivid vision, probably you\u2019re just\u00a0going to\u00a0go through life worrying and agonizing and playing small with money and never even realize when you\u2019ve won.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:13]\u00a0I\u2019m talking to a 10-million-dollar couple. They just need a little bit of time to get to that number. But I haven\u2019t heard gratitude. I haven\u2019t heard partnership. I don\u2019t even think they fully realize how much they\u2019ve accomplished because they are so focused on playing small.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:28]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0What does your Rich Life look like for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:33]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I would love for us both to be working jobs that we enjoy. We\u2019re both competent enough to make the amount of money that I think we need and have the flexibility to do what we always wanted to do, which was to live where we want to live, make moves when we want to make them, and raise our family in a way that\u2019s stress-free, rich in culture and diversity, and all these things that we want to do where we\u2019re not held down by unnecessary stressors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emery, are you going to ask her the same question?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:11]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. What does your Rich Life look like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:15]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I do have a similar vision. It would be nice to go off the grid or move somewhere, work remotely, just do our own thing, experience different cultures. My hesitation would be, yes, it looks like we could make almost $10 million, but that\u2019s based on me continuing to work and putting in the same amount of money every single year into that fund. So I can\u2019t just quit my job. I can\u2019t just\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Annie, notice what\u2019s going on right now. If you can\u2019t even dream for 30 seconds, that\u2019s a real problem.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:00]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I want it to be tangible. I want it to be a tangible dream.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because if you don\u2019t offer a tangible dream, then that means you are what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:13]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re just dreaming. It\u2019s not going to happen.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Isn\u2019t it okay to just dream?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:22]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Emery\u2019s the dreamer. He has the ideas, and he\u2019s the one who does these things. I tend to be the one that helps make it happen, and in order for it to make it happen, I need to plan. But yes, I would like to also just dream myself. How are you going to get there? How is that going to happen? We can\u2019t just dream it and have it happen. He\u2019s been dreaming about having a great, thriving job, and it hasn\u2019t happened. So it is hard for me to just dream, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The how is a very valuable discussion. You can\u2019t just talk about dreams all day long. But that doesn\u2019t have to happen at the same time. In fact, it totally detracts from a dream.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:12]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0One of the things for my Rich Life at this stage in my life when I vision it is dropping everything, putting whatever we have into an investment, moving to a small house in the Philippines with almost no belongings, making very little money, and just living together. Because you don\u2019t need a lot there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You ever ask Annie what she thinks about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:35]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0She doesn\u2019t like the heat. We\u2019re not sure what the best thing to do here is. We have different ideas.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Notice that they found it really difficult to dream even for a minute. So I decided to shift to the earning part. Now, recently, I\u2019ve had a few guests where the higher earning partner wanted the other to earn more, and my approach is, if they want it and it sounds reasonable, for example, the lower earning partner is not watching the children full-time, I\u2019m all for it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:05]\u00a0I think you get to ask for what you want in your relationship, and then your partner can hear you out and say yes or no, or you can both talk about it. I\u2019ve seen a lot of comments saying, oh my God, if I earned $300,000, I wouldn\u2019t dream of asking my partner to work at all. I would retire them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:20]\u00a0No, you wouldn\u2019t. Now, I am not saying that if you make a high income, it is reasonable to expect your partner to earn exactly the same amount. That\u2019s not the case. I\u2019ve never said that. In fact, I don\u2019t recall any partner ever saying that on this show. However, if you earn a lot and there\u2019s a disproportionate gap between you and there\u2019s a reasonable ability for your partner to earn more, in my mind, that\u2019s okay to ask, and then you too can have a discussion about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:46]\u00a0But here\u2019s the twist with this couple. They haven\u2019t really decided why they\u2019re working this hard. What\u2019s the purpose? Where\u2019s the money\u00a0going to\u00a0go? What\u2019s it all for? Watch as I take their feedback that Annie wants\u00a0Emery\u00a0to earn more, and I help them start to talk about it in a different way.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We know the number that Annie has proposed for you to make, which would be $50,000 a year. Do you feel that that number is comfortable, Emery, that you could achieve that in this business?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:16]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. What\u2019s the time period?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:22]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I think before winter.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:27]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think by the end of the year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, I like that. I like that. Annie, what do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:32]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think with having a business partner, it\u2019s possible that he can do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s talk about what would happen if this is achieved and what would happen if it\u2019s not. Let\u2019s say that at December 31st you\u2019re making 7.5k per month. You\u2019re hitting your numbers, 50k net. Emery, what are you doing with that money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:02]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Buying a car that we don\u2019t have to worry about. Putting money away to where I can feel like I bought our next couple vacations or something with the kids. Some upgrades to the house that we\u2019d like to do, investing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, fine. Sounds like a grab bag. It just sounds like a bunch of random stuff. What\u2019s the one thing you\u2019re doing with your money? Have you thought about it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:35]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Just feeling a little bit better about myself for one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Not a very satisfying answer, Emery, if I can be honest with you, but I don\u2019t mind. We\u2019re coming back. That\u2019s why I\u2019m here. Don\u2019t worry. Annie, what if Emery delivers exactly what he said? He\u2019s making 7.5k or 50k net by the end of the year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:54]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0That would make me feel a lot better about, yeah, investing in additional things with a property so we\u2019re not having to deal with it so much. And our 20% guilt-free spending would be higher, so I\u2019m able to do more things and get a new car. I would love a new car. We never get new cars. I feel like our relationship would be a lot better because when he is confident and when he knows he\u2019s making the income, it does make a difference in our communication.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Hey, tell the world. It\u2019s sexy when everyone\u2019s hitting their numbers. All right, that\u2019s spoken like a true optimizer. Okay, fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:42]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like I would be helping relieve some stress that Annie feels when she feels the need to work and to spend so much of her time and mental energy on this subject. And we could spend more time shutting off our emails after 6 o\u2019clock and spending time with our children and going for a walk without having to talk about budgets.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All this work, all these changes, which I think should happen anyway, and what do you get? It doesn\u2019t actually sound like you\u2019ve really deeply thought about what an extra few tens of thousands of dollars will do for you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:25]\u00a0You\u2019re starting from the position of I need to optimize everything. I need to optimize our properties. I need to optimize our credit cards. I need to even optimize the yield on a savings account by putting it in stocks. It sounds logical, like, oh, I\u2019m optimizing. I\u2019m making more. But it\u2019s causing all kinds of downstream problems.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:42]\u00a0When you go to Paris, you pick an artificially low number, then you exceed it. You are worried and always having to check on this and that. Just because a couple that makes $223,000 at your age, you should easily have 15 or $20,000 in your checking account. Just put it there. What if you put 30 grand in there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:04]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Then I would feel better about it and I won\u2019t feel like I\u2019m depleted.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. You want to do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:12]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Where do I take it out of?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, aren\u2019t you the one who told me that your stocks are actually just a modified savings account?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:22]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you want me to not put in money towards stocks? Just decrease it? It\u2019s in an index fund. I\u2019m like, oh, it\u2019s in an index fund.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And sacrifice the yield? My question is, what are you going to do with this money? How are you going to use it to improve your quality of life?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:50]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, one of the things that changed my perspective when it comes to spending money now is Die with Zero. I don\u2019t know if you\u2019ve read that book. I\u2019ve also had a lot of, I guess\u2013 my dad got sick. Sorry.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s okay. Take your time. Sorry to hear it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:29]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0My dad got sick before he could retire, so he is not even able to use any of the money that he put into investments. And I guess that\u2019s part of the reason, like, well, if we have this money, we can use it now, but obviously still keep some for later because I could live until I\u2019m 90.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:04]\u00a0But my sister-in-law just got diagnosed with cancer, and she\u2019s 34. So these health things that\u2019s going on around me made me think I need to do things now. I need to travel now rather than wait till I\u2019m old and can\u2019t move as much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m sorry your dad and sister-in-law and maybe others have gone through that. I think when people around us get sick, we start to realize mortality is real, and sometimes it comes out in different ways for different people. The traveling makes perfect sense to me. You have the money. You want to enjoy life. Now I get that. I have no problem with it. You can afford it. How else do you think that seeing family illness has affected your view of money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:12]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, I don\u2019t find, I guess, future retirement as important.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:25]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0It actually hurt. My dad has Alzheimer\u2019s, so he\u2019s in a home for, I don\u2019t know how long. He made enough that he can\u2019t get on Medicaid, but not enough for my mom to just retire early or retire because she can live till 90 years old. So it hurt the situation where you\u2019re just in the middle of financially\u2013 I know it\u2019s important, but it\u2019s not as important to me, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That makes sense. Do you think there\u2019s any relationship between what you\u2019ve experienced growing up and more recently and things like the credit cards? Do you think there\u2019s any connection there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:27]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not sure. To me, it\u2019s like, oh, it\u2019s free money. I\u2019m going to spend it anyway. Might as well use it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. What about the idea that you want to try to control things when it comes to money? Could be credit cards, could be another part of your financial life, but the idea that you really want to try to control things because so much is uncontrollable. Do you see that show up anywhere in your treatment of money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:56]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, definitely, that\u2019s one of the things I feel like I can control, is how I treat money. And I think that\u2019s what makes it hard. With Emery, it\u2019s like, I can\u2019t control how much he makes. I just have to let him do his thing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Keep going. Keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:21]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can\u2019t control how much he makes, and how does that feel to you?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:28]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t like it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. What else? How would you describe that feeling? You can control your savings rate. You can control your 401k max. You can control even your expenses and your credit cards and points and all that stuff, but you can\u2019t control how much your husband is making. And how does that feel to you?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:48]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I hate it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You said you hate it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:54]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. I hate the fact that I can\u2019t do anything about it. We live in the same house. We have the same expenses, but I can\u2019t do anything about it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can sure try though, right? How do you try?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:13]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0By pushing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:16]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0By nagging.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you push? How do you do that? Give me an example.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:19]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0By asking him to get a job. Doing like, you\u2019re good at contractor work. Why don\u2019t you just be a contractor? They make a ton of money right now. Or you like beer? Why don\u2019t you work at a brewery? I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s these jabs. It\u2019s these little elbow nudges. It\u2019s not even about the brewery. It\u2019s not about him being a general contractor. In many ways, yes, it is partially about Emery. I agree. And we\u2019ve talked about how for a grown adult, he needs to be making more than 1,500 a month. He\u2019s already agreed. He is talked about that. We\u2019ve talked about that. But Annie, do you see that your behavior also comes from something that\u2019s probably much deeper?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:08]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I can see that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Do you also see that when Emery makes 25k, or 35k, or 50k, or even 75k, you will not automatically change the way you treat him?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:31]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:35]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>It\u2019s one thing to maybe wish your partner made an extra five grand or 20 grand or something like that. Okay, fine. But when you use the word hate, it\u2019s quite revealing actually, because it tells me that there\u2019s something much deeper here. The reason that I want to point that out to you is that many people, especially smart people, and especially optimizers, believe that if they just get a certain number, then suddenly they will feel differently.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:07]\u00a0All the things you\u2019re talking about, you already have it. You have $223,000 a year in income. In your area, with your expenses, that is more than enough money. You have a lot of money. You\u2019re on track to be multi, multi multimillionaires. Did you know that? Yes, you knew that. What\u2019s that look on your face?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:31]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0It just doesn\u2019t feel like I have a lot of money, but yes, you\u2019re right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do I always say on this show? Do you remember?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:42]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0What we feel and what is actually on paper for are two different things.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The way we feel about money is highly uncorrelated with how much we\u2019ve got in the bank.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just a few of the next steps we discussed. They each get their own guilt-free spending account. No more using stocks as savings. Create a dedicated high-yield savings account instead.\u00a0Emery\u00a0has committed to making 50k net by the end of this year. They\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0pull way back on optimizing, including closing credit cards and simplifying their financial infrastructure.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:18]\u00a0They\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0consider the lifestyle and financial impacts of selling one or both rental properties, and they\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0create actual boundaries and expectations around money. Let\u2019s hear what Annie said in her follow-up video<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:31]\u00a0<strong>Annie:<\/strong>\u00a0I learned that I overcomplicate things, and the rental property has been a burden on us. It\u2019s actually surprising to me that he agreed with Emery that we need to sell the properties, and that\u2019s something that we are hoping to change. We\u2019ve already been in contact with a realtor to see what updates that we can do before we sell, hoping to sell it soon, probably in the next year, and just making sure that Emery has a chance to actually focus on his job and give him the best path for success.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:21]\u00a0Another thing that we are changing is we will be simplifying and having our own individual accounts and not having so many credit cards that it\u2019s over complicated. So thank you, Ramit. Really appreciate you helping us.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now\u00a0Emery\u2019s follow-up video.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:44]\u00a0<strong>Emery:<\/strong>\u00a0Hi, Ramit. Thank you again for the conversation, and thank you for helping Annie and I realize that the way that her and I communicate with each other about money is not as constructive as it could be. For example, we are both asking more questions, being more curious, and trying to understand what each other\u2019s Rich Life looks like.\u00a0And so we can come up with something where we can live our Rich Life together.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:06]\u00a0We\u2019ve made a few decisions. We are looking at how we can sell the rental property and maximize profits. I think we\u2019re both realizing that it\u2019s more of a stressor than it is something that\u2019s bringing value to our life.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:20]\u00a0We are looking at it. Annie is open to it, especially because she\u2019s realizing more and more that if we don\u2019t have that on our plate, that I can grow the business and that will be more profitable than the rental property will. And we are really trying to look at what things in our lives bring us joy and what things in our life we just have because we can have them.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:44] We\u2019re also splitting up our spending funds as per your suggestion, which I think that\u2019s going to be decluttering our financial situation, which I am all about. I really appreciate how you made it feel so simple, and I think for both of us, it just feels like a weight off of our shoulders.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Annie\u2019s 39 and Emery is 43. Although they have a high combined income, Annie makes 5x more than Emery. This leads to frustration over small purchases, like an extra drink at dinner\u2014while they\u2019re on vacation in Europe. Emery also manages their two rental properties even though they earn $0. He\u2019s desperate to sell, but Annie [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118872","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118872","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118872"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118872\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118872"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118872"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}