{"id":118874,"date":"2024-08-06T13:39:22","date_gmt":"2024-08-06T17:39:22","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118874"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:26:43","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:26:43","slug":"168-emi-antonio","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/168-emi-antonio\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 168. \u201cI\u2019m going to die with student loans. Why should I count them?\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cI\u2019m going to die with student loans. What\u2019s the point?\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/_7tmLfcv9JM\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/6C40MXRcWmkGmRkj5VNi0j?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Emi, 32, and Antonio, 29, have been married for six years and have struggled with debt for even longer. Credit cards, personal loans, student loans, refinancing\u2014Emi has kept her head in the sand through it all. Antonio doesn\u2019t trust himself to fix it. Can they break the cycle for their daughter?<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Fabric by Gerber Life | Protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. Apply today in just 10 minutes at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>ZocDoc | Download the ZocDoc app for FREE\u00a0 at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/zocdoc.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/zocdoc.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0then find and book a top-rated doctor today.<\/p>\n<p>Netsuite | Get visibility to everything in your business one one place. Sign up and defer payments, with no interest, for six months at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/iwt.com\/netsuite\">https:\/\/iwt.com\/netsuite<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/joindeleteme.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/joindeleteme.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0for 20% off.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Links mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/iwt.com\/earnable\">Join Earnable Live<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramiy:<\/strong>\u00a0Meet Emi and Antonio.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:06]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0We keep getting into debt and getting out of debt and then getting back into debt<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:09]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I was in the dark, my head was in the sand, 100 overspending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Antonio always managed the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:14]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I get anxious because I know what\u2019s coming next. I\u2019m going to have to tell you that we\u2019re this much more money in debt this month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0While Emi buried her head in the sand<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:23]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve never been involved in our finances.\u00a0I got a free pass to walk away and not take responsibility.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emi\u00a0is a therapist and she can\u2019t figure out her relationship with money.\u00a0She has a blind spot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:33]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s anxiety-inducing. It\u2019s overwhelming. I don\u2019t understand it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019ve been in a cycle of racking up debt and paying it off since they got married six years ago.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:41]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0We both knew we were in a good amount of debt, but the amount was climbing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0how much did you raid from this emergency fund, to pay off the credit card debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:49]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0$77,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa. It\u2019s unrelenting.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:52]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s nowhere else to go. After this, we\u2019re selling our house and having to move in with one of our\u00a0parents<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emi\u00a0and Antonio have serious work to do.\u00a0What were you feeling as you were asking these questions?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:01]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Like the walls were closing in, like I was going underwater<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can they break the cycle of debt? What\u2019s going on, Emi?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:08]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I just need a second. I need a second.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s dive in with Emi and Antonio.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:13]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0There was one day we were leaving church, and there\u2019s a fast-food restaurant down the road, on our way home. So we go, and he\u2019s like, oh, no, don\u2019t use that card. And I was like, why? And he said, because it\u2019s almost maxed out. And then I told him, I was like, that\u2019s never happened to us before. I spiraled after that for a while, to be honest. I don\u2019t remember getting any other questions I asked. It\u2019s a blur.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What were you feeling as you were asking these questions?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:45]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Like the walls were closing in, like I was going underwater.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Have you ever felt that before with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:53]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0All the time from forever.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s a familiar feeling to you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:58]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s gotten much worse. Yeah. It\u2019s like the feeling was always there, but the intensity got 10 times worse in a second.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Antonio, what do you remember about that conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:11]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Almost shame. Up to that point, I was basically the main person in charge of finances. And as you\u2019ll see, we never really figured out a way to make it work for both of us. I\u2019ve come up with plans in the past, and we failed. And in that conversation, it was just like, here we go again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:39]\u00a0Before we were married, I always paid off my credit cards in full, and I made one decision that was the first time that I ever knew I wasn\u2019t going to be able to pay off my credit card in full. And that was when we got back from our honeymoon.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:58]\u00a0Her ring that I got her was a cheaper ring because I got what I could afford. It actually tarnished in the ocean. And so when we got back, I was like, you know what? I got to get her a good ring. I got to make sure that she\u2019s taken care of. So we went to the store, we got her a good ring, one that I knew would last, and that was the first time I made a purchase that I knew I couldn\u2019t pay back that month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much was the ring?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:22]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0That one was, I think, 3,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how long did it take you to pay that specific charge off?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:31]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0It snowballed. I couldn\u2019t even tell you. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0After the seal broke, the next month, you charged more the next month, and it just never really got paid off for years and years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:44]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you make of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:47]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We felt bad it never stopped, basically. The feeling of bad never stopped. We never got past it, but I don\u2019t think there has been a day since then that we haven\u2019t talked about finances or stressed about finances or prayed. It\u2019s been a snowball effect since. We never moved on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you talk about day to day about finances?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:13]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh my God, everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:15]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And the thing is that we use so many different cop outs, ones that you wouldn\u2019t like to hear. I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll go over it, but we\u2019ve used a lot of cop outs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why don\u2019t you just tell me right now? Tell me. What do you say to yourself?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:32]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Really, I can only think of the most recent one. Most recent one being, hey, she\u2019s going to have a full-time job soon.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s yours?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:40]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I physically could not get a job for a while because I was working, so I just kept my eyes on when I\u2019m working, we can climb out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019s next?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:52]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0It wasn\u2019t even just mental things that we told ourselves. Like other accounts that we had used that were saved for things in order to pay off our credit card debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so you raided another account to pay off debt. Okay. What was that account for?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:08]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I had a savings account coming into the marriage that helped us purchase our home, and it was meant for big purchases\/emergency fund. If\u00a0shit\u00a0hits the fan, this is the money that\u2019s there. Don\u2019t touch it. It was actually in the hands of a financial advisor. I know. We\u2019ll get to that. Not anymore.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which mid-tier local financial advisor\u00a0was it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:39]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0UBS.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I fucking knew it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:40]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0But it\u2019s not my fault. It was handed to me as a present.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, so how much did you raid from this emergency fund to pay off the credit card debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:52]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0$77,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:54]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I didn\u2019t know that until recently.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What point did you go, isn\u2019t this called emergency fund and we\u2019re paying off credit card debt? At what point did you say that, if ever?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:07]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Constantly, constantly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so you said it, but didn\u2019t change your behavior.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:14]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What other cop outs did you use?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:19]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0So because she was in school, we actually went into student loan debt to pay off a lot of stuff too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You took student loans, and you paid off credit cards?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:31]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, how much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:32]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It was almost 40k for student loans for actual school. Then we put some of it toward the down payment of the house, then some was for credit cards. There was maybe 10k of that was for credit cards, maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:45]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0The last one that I can remember was we opened a personal loan through Best Egg.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:55]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0That was 30k, and that\u2019s the one that we had told ourselves when we hit the submit button on that one, hey, this is it. Last chance we get to fix our problems with money. There\u2019s no more options after this. And then we got ourselves in way more.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be back after this short break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:17]\u00a0Now back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s rewind back to the incident at the fast-food place. So what came out of that conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:27]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0What clicked differently during that conversation was just the fact that the credit card was maxed out. And that was the first time that that happened.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:35]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Basically, yeah. We both knew we were in a good amount of debt, but the amount was climbing a lot. Every month when I do the bills, I get super introverted, anxious, because I know what\u2019s coming next. And I know that, hey, I\u2019m going to have to tell you that we\u2019re this much more money in debt this month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:57]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It was genuinely like I was in the dark. My head was in the sand. Absolutely, truly, 100% overspending.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m always fascinated with the first time that something big happens with money, like when he went into debt to buy her a ring, and when a couple realizes they are in serious financial trouble, like when they\u2019re at the fast-food place.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:17]\u00a0Do you see how mundane these examples really are?\u00a0A lot of us believe that there are these singular moments where the sky\u2019s clear, the trumpets play, and everything changes in our finances. Guys, these are extremely rare. When it comes to our money, the best predictor of our future behavior is our past behavior.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:34]\u00a0And usually, what I see is a series of mundane day-to-day decisions which people make because they\u2019re easy and they don\u2019t understand how to connect today\u2019s decision to tomorrow\u2019s consequence.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:48]\u00a0Now, this is true for money, for food, and relationships. And once you see the pattern, once you internalize that what I do today has a profound effect on tomorrow, sometimes if the stakes are high enough, you can start to make a change.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you realize the severity of the situation when you were taking out a 30,000-dollar personal loan to pay off credit card debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:08]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like we realized the severity. I also feel like we still didn\u2019t have the appropriate tools.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:16]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We had no tools, but we\u2019re panicking every day. So the last thing that we haven\u2019t talked about yet is that we\u2019ve refinanced our home. And that was the last thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Free money, right? It\u2019s all about equity.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:32]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve learned so much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who told you that? The broker? Who told you? The agent?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:37]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. Everyone, actually. You know what? Now that you asked that question, everyone told us to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on. Before we go on, tell me what you thought refinancing meant and what it would get you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:53]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I had absolutely no idea, no clue. I did not know anything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:00]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like I knew exactly what I was getting myself into. It just felt like the best option. And in a way, I still feel like it was because, believe it or not, it led us to you. The broker that we used was very open, very honest. I told him everything, and I\u2019m like, listen, man, this is why we\u2019re doing this. We\u2019re doing it for debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:30]\u00a0And I told him about our cycle too. I was very honest with him, and he was like, listen, man, we don\u2019t want to see you go into more debt. I hear you. Look this guy up. And he talked about you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on. This is a mortgage broker?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:46]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:47]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0He recommended me?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:49]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>He did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:49]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The guy who says I trust him as far as I can throw him? Wow. I don\u2019t even know what to say. This is insane. Anyway, thanks. I appreciate that from the mortgage broker.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:59]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0And we continued to overspend and dug ourselves in a lot\u2013 we\u2019ve asked ourselves throughout the past couple months, what are the habits that we have that really get us there? And I think we have some answers, but we\u2019ll get to that in your time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me. Let\u2019s talk about it. I love that you\u2019re introspective Tell me what you discovered. What habits?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:27]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0So I think the biggest one for me is just the fact that I\u2019m overly generous when I don\u2019t have. I\u2019m a recovering people pleaser, so there\u2019s that. But I like to make other people happy, and sometimes that\u2019s spending and buying them something that I know they like. I have a list on my phone of things that I hear people say, I like this. And I\u2019ll write it down and I\u2019ll say this person liked this. I will do everything in my power to make sure you get that thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So one is you\u2019re overly generous. Antonio, when was the last time you said no in your relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:11]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We don\u2019t say no. We don\u2019t say no. We\u2019ve changed our wording, and I\u2019m not going to go down that rabbit hole of recently, but no, that\u2019s not something that we have\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You don\u2019t say no. Because if you said no, that would make you what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:23]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Make me the bad guy. Because you\u2019re not getting what you want.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. So let me give whoever\u2019s around me what they want. I\u2019ll find a way. I am a\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:36]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m good at making people feel good and making people feel loved. It\u2019s my superpower, but I recognize that a lot of the time it\u2019s up my own expense.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do for a living? You\u2019re in hospitality? What are you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:50]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m a firefighter.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Firefighter. That\u2019s interesting. Why do you laugh, Emi?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:55]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0He\u2019s a first responder. He saves people.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:04]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Sorry, it\u2019s just the irony of what I do for a living and what he does for a living and this being a blind spot. I cannot see past that. It\u2019s just hilarious and crazy. Anyway, sorry. Go ahead.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you think because he saves people\u2019s lives, it\u2019s ironic because what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:24]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0He doesn\u2019t put this label on him, but other people do. Like, oh, you\u2019re the hero. You are someone that can do this. He\u2019ll never say that. And he doesn\u2019t put himself in that, but maybe that connected with the people pleasing maybe had a little bit of connection.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely a lot. That\u2019s a good insight. Antonio, you called it the good guy. A lot of times folks will call it the hero. It makes them the hero when they remembered something somebody said seven months ago and then give it to them for a holiday gift. It really is quite amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:56]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0What I\u2019m getting from this is that it\u2019s something that I am probably going to have to be very intentional about. And the second I stop being intentional about it is where we end up in a lot of debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What other habits are there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:11]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s going to sound like a justification, but I don\u2019t think it is. It needs complex.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Throw it out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:17]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We didn\u2019t know what fixed costs were, and so we had no idea that just our necessities was well over 100%. So every month, we were in the red and didn\u2019t know why, and then kept feeling like crap because we thought it was us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:32]\u00a0And then we\u2019d look at each other, we\u2019re like, is it us? I\u2019ve never been involved in our finances. I\u2019ve never talked to him about him. I\u2019ve been very panicky, very nervous. Just never involved on purpose.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:46]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say a severe lack of knowledge, but that\u2019s on my part. I don\u2019t put that on him. I just had no idea. I put my head in the sand and I said, it\u2019s anxiety-inducing. It\u2019s overwhelming. I don\u2019t understand it. It\u2019s not my thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:02]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it was just deflecting responsibility. It\u2019s all on you. I trust you. You got this. I support you. I\u2019m going to keep putting my head in the sand.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emi was really descriptive on her pre-screen call when she talked about her aversion to anything relating to finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:22]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0And that\u2019s when I started watching Ramit\u2019s videos. But I watched\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:25]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Which\u00a0he had to very aggressively convince me to watch. I was like, I\u2019m not watching anything financial. I refuse. I don\u2019t give a\u00a0shit. I was like, I don\u2019t care what we\u2019re doing. I don\u2019t want to watch anything. So finally, I was like, okay.\u00a0And it was like a whole thing. And all day he\u2019s like, okay, we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0watch it today. And I\u2019m like, deep breathing. I\u2019m like, okay. And I get my notebook out. I\u2019m like, okay, let\u2019s watch whatever. I could not, would not want to do it fast enough.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Antonio, why did she deflect responsibility to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:00]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did it cost her anything?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:03]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Us ending up in debt again and again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:08]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It didn\u2019t cost me anything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:13]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. How do you mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:15]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I got to put the stress on you. I got to put the weight of the world on your shoulders. I\u2019m so sorry. And say you got this. You can do it. And I could walk away. What did I put on my shoulders in that? Nothing. It\u2019s like I got a free pass to walk away and not take responsibility. That\u2019s completely unfair. And I see that. And I\u2019m sorry that it\u2019s taken this long to see that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:46]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Yeah, I hear you, and I forgive you. You\u2019re doing way better now, but thank you for acknowledging that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:57]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0No, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emi, how you doing over there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:00]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m good. I\u2019m okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s no problem.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:09]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I love you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:09]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I love you too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s going on, Emi?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:16]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I just need a second. I need a second.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We have all the time in the world. What\u2019s it making you feel as you come to this realization right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:31]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0That I wish I figured that out sooner.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s take a second to talk about what is happening when people get emotional on this show. It happens all the time. Women cry. Men cry. Couples get mad at each other. They roll their eyes. They get sad, frustrated. They tell me it\u2019s hopeless. They also have breakthroughs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:52]\u00a0They smile. They laugh. They touch each other on the arm. I have these conversations so that I can help couples, which is why I make it really hard to get on the show. You have to fill out an application. You have to go through screening. We give you lots of off-ramps before you ever speak to me. So the couples you see, the couples who come on the show really, really want to be here, and they are courageous.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:17]\u00a0Can you imagine going on a show where you and your partner talk about every financial detail in your life, where you reveal it to literally millions of people? This is hard and is really uncomfortable. But every couple on this show does it because they want help and they want to do it together, which I think deserves a lot of respect.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:37]\u00a0I\u2019ve noticed that people cry the most at two topics. First, when we talk about the habits that they are teaching their children, and two, when they have a huge realization like\u00a0Emi\u00a0just had. This is one of those rare moments in life where somebody looks back and sees everything through a whole different light. That\u2019s emotional.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:02]\u00a0I don\u2019t know about you. I don\u2019t know how it shows up in your body, but for the handful of times it\u2019s happened to me, only a handful, I get a tingle that runs from my head all the way down my body. And I\u2019m sharing this because you would never think that talking about money would make people cry. If you\u2019ve listened to this podcast, you know that money goes far beyond the numbers on a spreadsheet, and I think\u00a0Emi\u2019s realization is just a beautiful example of how money can affect your relationship in a very deep way.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was your interest rate before and after?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:35]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0We had a beautiful interest rate before, 2.99.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:41]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What the\u00a0fuck? That was the before?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:45]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick pause to support our sponsors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:49]\u00a0Now back to\u00a0Emi\u00a0and Antonio.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? What\u2019s the after?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:55]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a05.99.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the\u00a0fuck? Why\u2019d you do that? Wait, now I understand why this mortgage broker loves you. Why did you that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:04]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so we initially ended up buying our house during COVID. At the time was it was a pretty decent interest rate, and then afterwards, the 5.99 was what we figured would help us get out of the 29% that we were paying in credit cards.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you refinanced from 2.99% to 5 point something percent.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:33]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. To pay off all of our debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You paid off all the debt, so now it\u2019s all rolled into 5 point something percent. How much were you paying off from the credit card debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:42]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0The credit card debt alone ended up being a little over 50k. We paid off credit cards. We paid off our car. And so wiping everything clean and then being able to build our savings and all of that seemed like everything weighed out pretty well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you now have a 29-year loan at roughly 5.3%. Once you\u2019d signed the deal, your debt was all paid off. Blank slate. Not bad. Not bad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:19]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0There is an asterisk there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, okay. Go ahead. Tell me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:21]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0The student loans. Those aren\u2019t paid off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:26]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s 60k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s interesting. You took out that 30,000-dollar personal loan. You said, this is our last chance. And then a short while later, you refinanced your house to pay it off. So what do you think about the fact that it wasn\u2019t really your last chance?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:44]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that was the problem, that we weren\u2019t able to figure out any other way to crawl ourselves out of x.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Aren\u2019t both of you married, contributing to the financial picture?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:59]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes and no. I was working full-time up until maybe about three years ago, two years ago, something like that. My master\u2019s degree program was about three years, and unfortunately, my internship was unpaid.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:13]\u00a0So I wasn\u2019t contributing financially for about two years, and I think that\u2019s a significant piece to this as well. And now I am. So now I\u2019m in my career, and now I\u2019m working and contributing financially.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. You both go into debt during that time?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:34]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Had you been debt before that time period?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:38]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:39]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So it wasn\u2019t just that unpaid time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:43]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0No, but it got significantly worse much quicker. It sped up times 100 during that time. We did the math and we know the number of how much we were hemorrhaging each month now. But at that point we didn\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. Okay. It sounds like you learned to live with being in debt. Am I reading that right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:10]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So as a mental health therapist, you know about tools for coping and stress and overwhelm, a variety of different things, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:23]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Very much so.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. What do you think hearing yourself describe your relationship with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:31]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I get so frustrated because it\u2019s that one blank space. I have gone through inner child work and I help other people go through real healing, and I\u2019m confident and proud of who I am and what I\u2019ve gone through and worked through. But when it comes to money, I do not know. I can\u2019t self-analyze. You\u2019re sitting on top of my DSM. I can\u2019t figure it out of why my relationship with money is what it is. There\u2019s a blind spot there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:08]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that this is something that I\u2019m even just hearing and learning about myself too. It\u2019s nice to have the trust in me. I thought I had the trust in me, and I don\u2019t even think I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s profound. She trusted you with money and now you\u2019re realizing you didn\u2019t even trust yourself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:31]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Looking back, our track record speaks for itself. The results showed that for one reason or another, even I was in charge of the finances, and whether it be assertiveness, whether it be my overspending or not making enough, we still ended up in debt again and again and again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now that is honest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:55]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I don\u2019t think I ever was able to admit that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So why is it that bad? Technically y\u2019all could go the rest of your lives. You did this refinance, da da da da. What\u2019s the problem?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:05]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0No, that will not be happening.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:06]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s the stress.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The stress? Oh really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:12]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Having that loom over you every day, knowing that you can\u2019t technically really afford anything because you\u2019re\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Technically? What\u2019s that? How many tens of millions of Americans are in credit debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:27]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You all did it for many years, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:31]\u00a0<strong>Interview:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:31]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re still here, still alive, still got a nice Netflix subscription, roof over your head.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:34]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Not anymore.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:35]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0No, we don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Okay. All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:37]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0We canceled it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Whoa.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:41]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We haven\u2019t gotten there yet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You destroyed my own punchline. Okay. I\u2019ll take the win on that. Good job, you guys. That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Big kudos to\u00a0Emi\u00a0for admitting she has a blind spot and for saying, \u201cOur track record speaks for itself,\u201d referring to their poor financial situation. This is a great example of what I mean when I say to live a Rich Life, you have to be honest, honest with yourself and honest with the people around you.\u00a0Emi\u00a0is a therapist, and she can\u2019t figure out her relationship with money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:11]\u00a0We\u2019ve had people who are \u201cpersonal finance experts\u201d or instructors on this show. They can\u2019t figure out their money. It doesn\u2019t surprise me. Just because you are an expert in one domain does not necessarily translate to something even adjacent. It would be like asking a bodybuilder to give you tips on Pilates.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:31]\u00a0To an outside observer,\u00a0they both seem like fitness experts, but in reality, they are totally different skillsets that are also inextricably tied together. The good news is that\u00a0Emi\u00a0and Antonio are here asking for help, which I totally admire. It\u2019s one of the best skills you can possibly have. Listen now as I ask them about their childhood experience with money.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:51]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0My mom was always great with finances, and she was the one who always talked to me about them and taught me, hey, this is how you use credit cards, pay them off. Squeeze them for what they\u2019re worth. Up to the point of us getting married, I followed all that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. What\u2019d your mom do for a living?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:13]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0She worked for a supermarket.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How\u2019s she doing financially now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:18]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re doing great. They just remodeled their home.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa. Okay. What do you remember learning about money as a young kid?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:28]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I learned that money\u2019s serious. I believe that money is one of the big reasons my parents separated, my biological parents. They always argued about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019d they say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:44]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, screaming matches, to the point that I would lock myself in the bathroom. Yeah, I never knew exactly what the issues were, but I knew that they disagreed a lot about money, and I always thought that was one of the big reasons that they separated.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You remember any phrases they used as a kid about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:08]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Excuse my French, every\u00a0fucking\u00a0month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s what they said?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:13]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0That phrase is ingrained in my head.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:17]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0That this keeps coming up. Why is this always an issue every\u00a0fucking\u00a0month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What lessons do you think you learned about money looking back to your childhood and your teenage years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:32]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Money is serious. It\u2019s a big tool. And there are ways to work the system to your benefit. Don\u2019t let them work you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Credit cards, for example.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:46]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In your own personal finances with the two of you, as it relates to credit cards, who got worked? Did the credit card companies or did the two of you get worked?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:57]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, we got worked. Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:59]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Both of our, I think, cultural aspect is also important. His mom and my dad both came here from other countries and built themselves up and are doing very well. And they pride themselves on, we did this. I want to teach our kids, the kids being us, to do well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:16]\u00a0So my dad was also a supermarket, worked his way up, just like his mom. I remember one time there was a huge fight, and this is also burned into my brain. I must have been maybe like, I don\u2019t know, 12 or 13. I remember my dad was at the door waiting for my mom, and they had a very toxic relationship. I need to clarify with that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:38]\u00a0They\u2019re no longer together. They\u2019re both doing fantastic. But growing up, not healthy. My dad told me to go to my room and to not come out. And I don\u2019t remember ever coming out. And they had a huge, huge, huge, bad argument because my mom had spent money that my dad didn\u2019t know about. I don\u2019t know how much it was. I don\u2019t know anything about it. But that\u2019s the only thing I remember about money talk, was that fight.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was your mom\u2019s relationship with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:10]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0My mom trusts the financial advisor with all of herself, basically, not in a weird way. All her money\u2019s with him, and she fully trusts him. Because, again, it\u2019s intimidating. My mom can spend, and she doesn\u2019t feel guilty about it, and I envy that about her.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Was your mom engaged with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:34]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0No, not even enough.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Until recently, were you engaged with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:41]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Not even a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You said your mom trusted her financial advisor. Who do you trust?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:49]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0My husband.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emi\u00a0follows her mom\u2019s pattern by burying her head in the sand and trusting someone else with money. In her mom\u2019s case, a financial advisor who\u2019s almost certainly charging AUM plus, a bunch of dog\u00a0shit, annuities, and whole life insurance. She does the same by simply trusting her husband.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:10]\u00a0Antonio follows the script of his parents\u2019 phrase, \u201cevery\u00a0fucking\u00a0month,\u201d where they always felt behind the same way he feels with\u00a0Emi. Think about the power of that phrase \u201cevery\u00a0fucking\u00a0month.\u201d It\u2019s unrelenting. Like you can never get ahead because something always comes up. Of course, there are lots of other details and nuances, but at the core, their stories are remarkably similar to the examples they saw modeled for them.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve got a double whammy here. Not only have you been in debt for the majority of your marriage, but you\u2019ve actually felt bad about all the things you were doing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:46]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you\u2019re going to spend all this money, you might as well feel good about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:51]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We never did. And I think that\u2019s where I\u2019m getting hung up on. I\u2019m like, oh if we\u2019re spending frivolously, it\u2019s fun. And it never was, ever. And I\u2019m like, damn.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:08]\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The two of you just got on this escalator and just started riding it. No one thought to ask, are we on the right escalator? Are we going the right direction? Are we even on the same escalator?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:21]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:21]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you understand why until just now you have been avoiding the debt? Do you guys get why that\u2019s happening?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:33]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I have a very negative word that I don\u2019t ever like to say in my head.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:38]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t like to say the word stupid because it\u2019s not a good word, but it\u2019s just stupid.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Yeah, so you feel shame, embarrassment. And you want to avoid it. I agree. That\u2019s part one. What\u2019s the second part?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:54]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Not sacrificing enough.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s true. But what I think is going on here is you have two major feelings about debt, both of you. The first is that shame, guilt, embarrassment. The second one is you don\u2019t actually believe you can make a change. What happens if this pattern doesn\u2019t change?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:15]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I fear what happens to us. I saw my parents argue about it. We end up having to sell our home, move out, put ourselves in an uncomfortable situation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How old will your daughter be at that point?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:37]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a010, 11.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think she\u2019ll be seeing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:41]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0An instability.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What messages will she be learning from her parents about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:52]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0My parents aren\u2019t good with money. I\u2019m sure there\u2019ll be many times that we can\u2019t get her something that she wants or we will get it anyways and then\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If this pattern continues, I can\u2019t imagine you ever saying no to your daughter, not once.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:10]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, she\u2019ll get whatever she wants. You\u2019re right. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. There\u2019s no way you would ever say no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:15]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.\u00a0You\u2019re\u00a0right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What would she learn from that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:21]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0That she can get whatever she wants and maybe she shows no restraint in her buying. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. So when she becomes your age, what would she be doing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:35]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Getting herself into debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:36]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0She\u2019ll tell herself that she\u2019s not good at it. She\u2019ll put her head in the sand. She\u2019ll avoid it. And she\u2019ll say, that\u2019s for my partner. That\u2019s for my dad. That\u2019s not for me. And I don\u2019t want that for her.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sounds familiar.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:50]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Of course it does.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s going through your head right now, Antonio?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:59]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like there\u2019s a little light bulb switch there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Every single couple who has credit card debt struggles to say no to their children. It\u2019s exactly the same thing. And that is because if you can\u2019t say no to yourself, how are you going to say no to your kids?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:21]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s really up to you to internalize, what are the stakes we\u2019re talking about here? Because it\u2019s not just about a vacation y\u2019all want to take. It\u2019s not that. It\u2019s not even about, oh my gosh, I\u2019m worried about going back into debt, which is a legitimate fear. I understand that, but it\u2019s so much bigger. It\u2019s, what is the culture we want to create in this family? That\u2019s bigger than any financial decision.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:46]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Speaking of that, let\u2019s take a look at your numbers. That\u2019s what I want to get into. All right, I\u2019m going to put this up in a second. What was it like to go through your conscious spending plan together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:59]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>I\u2019ll speak for the first time. The first time was painful and long.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:06]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0And\u00a0emotional.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Long like how\u00a0long?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:11]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Eight hours.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? Eight hours?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:14]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re at 75%?\u00a0When we first started this\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:17]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Still under 80.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:19]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0When we first started this was what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:22]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0We were at 102%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:23]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0No, we were 107, 1085.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:26]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:26]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We were close to 110% the fixed costs alone. Let\u2019s get this over with.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:31]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, the miscellaneous. But it\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:33]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It is not even here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:34]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not even on there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:36]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Post-tax retirement savings. That sentence used to give me an aneurysm. Why am I losing my mind every month if we\u2019re at 75%? I shouldn\u2019t be this distressed.\u00a0You and I have been hardcore stressing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:52]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:52]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0[Inaudible]. We should not be stressing. See, this is the cycle issue. We need to go deep into this. I\u2019m ready for some insight. Let\u2019s go. What\u2019s my problem?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:09]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m surprised, honestly. You\u2019ve been doing really good with this stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:12]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I know, but this is stressing me out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:13]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m surprised. It\u2019s okay if it does.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now let\u2019s take a look at their numbers. Assets, 387,000; investments, 16,700; savings, $1,500; debt, $362,000; net worth, $43,200. You can get a copy of my free Conscious Spending Plan, which will help you calculate all these things for you at iwt.com\/csp.\u00a0Again, it\u2019s free. iwt.com\/csp.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you two collectively make $114,600. Did you know that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:52]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0We figured that out together, and she was like, no way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And Emi, why did you say that can\u2019t be right? Is it higher than you thought or lower than you thought?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:02]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It was much higher than I thought.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ah, even more interesting. So when y\u2019all kept talking about like, one day she\u2019s going to get a job and one day we\u2019ll make more income and that will solve all our problems and then you discover you actually make more than you thought and it did not solve the problems you thought, what does that feel like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:24]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0At first, it was\u00a0shitty\u00a0thinking that it was a simple answer, money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:33]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I personally knew that we were making over that, but I remember her and I sitting down doing this and she was talking about like, oh, one of my goals is making over six figures. And I\u2019m like, personally or as a couple? And she\u2019s like, as a couple, I\u2019m like, we\u2019re already doing that. And she\u2019s like, what?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0My goal is to provide the best, most fascinating and sometimes counterintuitive views of money. If you want to get new videos that we release multiple times a week, click subscribe. It means a lot to me. It helps my team grow. It helps all of us keep creating this material for you.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did you think you made before you did the CSP together as a household?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:17]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Under 100,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like what, 90?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:22]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Between 80 and 90.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, let\u2019s say 80. So you make $34,000 more than you thought you made.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:30]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That hasn\u2019t solved your financial problems, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:37]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-uh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what do you make of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:41]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0That it\u2019s behavioral. It\u2019s more behavioral and more emotional than I ever gave it credit for.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s not about a number. Maybe about a number, but it\u2019s definitely more complicated than that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:51]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your fixed costs after, I\u2019m sure a lot of changes, are 75%. How\u2019d you bring it down from 110 to 75%?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:02]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, it seemed like a miracle, but that\u2019s the whole point, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:06]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t agree with that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:08]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Logically it makes sense. We cut a lot of fixed costs down, but it felt like there was such a blockade there, and that\u2019s why it took eight hours. Because we went through every single subscription, every single thing, and it was like, oh, I really don\u2019t want to get rid of that, but okay. And I guess at the end of the day, and for me, not realizing that cutting so many fixed costs down, so many subscriptions really added up to 35%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. What were some of the biggest things you cut?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:46]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Phone bill, shout out Mint Mobile. We were subscribed to probably every streaming service you could think of. So we had a Peloton that we were subscribed to. We cut that out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s 5%, not 35%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:04]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, maybe I\u2019m missing the big things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Emi?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:09]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t see it as a miracle because a miracle doesn\u2019t, I don\u2019t think, encapsulate the fact that we took like a machete and set\u00a0shit\u00a0on fire. We slashed. Every line you could think of other than the house got slashed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is the credit card debt finally zero now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:30]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long has it been zero for?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:32]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Two months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. And you\u2019re both really nervous about going back, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:37]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. People who pay off debt are extremely petrified about going back. They often worry more after paying it off than they worried all the years they had it. Did you all used to tell yourselves something like, once we get our debt paid off, then there\u2019ll be a rainbow at the end? Did you all say stuff like that? We\u2019ll be happy. It\u2019ll all be okay, that kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:04]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0But not just once we get our debt paid off once, once you get a job. We said that all the time. Once you get a job. That was a daily phrase.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you got the job. That didn\u2019t change the way you felt about money. You paid off the debt. Did that change the way you feel about money? No. Are you telling me that the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated with how much you\u2019ve got in the bank?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:28]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0What a shock. It\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:32]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I bring something up? And this is going to be very raw. It\u2019s just that the student debt, it doesn\u2019t come to mind because I think that this is the first conversation that we\u2019re actually counting it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:46]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0So true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:50]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0We have talked about it and haven\u2019t necessarily agreed, babe, but when we talk about it, your verbiage has been that you just don\u2019t think it counts.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:04]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. No, you\u2019re absolutely right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:08]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0And you\u2019re like, ah, people just have student debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:11]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m going to die with it. I wasn\u2019t taking the responsibility needed to do say, hey, this is debt. Debt is bad. Debt is debt. Whether it\u2019s credit card or whatever, we should be being aggressive about it. I\u2019m like, oh, I\u2019m going to die with it. Everyone dies with student loan debt, and I justified my way out of it. And I see that now, and that\u2019s\u2013 I\u2019m sorry. Again, I don\u2019t want to justify my way out of things anymore when it comes to our finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I appreciate that. Very healthy, very mature conversation right there about money. It\u2019s great. Foundational stuff. So 62,000 at a 7% interest rate, let\u2019s just assume. And your expected monthly payment you\u2019re currently paying is about 198, correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:02]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Okay. Well, at the current interest rate, you cannot pay off the debt with that payment amount. So you\u2019ll basically be paying this forever.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:13]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s actually quite simple. We\u2019re looking at the numbers right now. We\u2019re either going to make it work or we\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They did their CSP based on last year\u2019s numbers. Since then,\u00a0Emi\u00a0has gotten a raise, which added an extra $600 to their guilt-free spending.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So where do you want to put it? You have approximately 600 of money that we\u2019re going to take from guilt-free spending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:35]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d like to put it toward the debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your debt is currently at 198. I\u2019m going to add 600 bucks. Now you\u2019re paying $798, roughly 800 bucks a month towards debt. That\u2019s a good change. You\u2019ll pay that debt off in just under nine years. Wow, that\u2019s a big difference, don\u2019t you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:59]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:01]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Being fully debt-free with no asterisk.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:06]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s that moat life that we talked about.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:10]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:12]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s patching a big hole.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That does not factor in any salary increases, and of course you could create a money rule where if and when your salary increases, 50% of that salary increase goes towards investments. 25% goes towards debt, making that debt paid off even faster. And the remaining amount goes between savings and guilt-free spending. That would highly effective.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:44]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0If I\u2019m being analytical and our marriage is a pie chart, in all other aspects of our marriage, we kick\u00a0ass. I\u2019m proud of us, and I\u2019m proud of my husband. Our communication is typically very solid in every other aspect. It\u2019s not being put in finances. It\u2019s not being put in money. It\u2019s not being put in this area of our life. I just want to bring the good dynamics into the finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes it can become intoxicating to constantly talk about problems. People with problems love to talk about their problems, and one of the things that I can help you do is to refocus on talking about what is going to happen when you make these positive changes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:29]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re going to take all of the skills and resources and positive perspectives and all of the genuine skills and positive things that we have in other areas of our life and in our marriage that we know we do well. We\u2019re going to apply it to this piece of the pie chart, to this piece of our marriage.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that. I like that a lot. I love that. It\u2019s positive. It acknowledges that you\u2019re already successful in tons of areas. And it just says, in so many words, we know how to do effective stuff in all these other parts of life. Let\u2019s just transfer those skills over to this burning area here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:04]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0And just because we haven\u2019t done it before doesn\u2019t mean that we can\u2019t do it. We\u2019ve done a lot of things in our marriage that we\u2019ve never done in our life that we are doing good. We can do this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We can do this. I love that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:16]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Babe, when we got married, we never owned a food scale. That food scale is out four to five times a day.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:24]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:25]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We put it in a drawer specifically that\u2019s easy and convenient to grab. We make it easy for ourselves to do this. We set systems in place so that way it\u2019s easy for us to make better choices.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:38]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:40]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0We can do this. We\u2019ve done this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What about the vision for the two of you? You talked about two things here not yet skilled at. What about for the two of you? I want us to become\u2013 we are going to become\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:03]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I want us to be dialed in. I want us to just completely be on the same page with everything money related, and I feel like we\u2019re so close.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How do you feel saying that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:23]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels relieving, having had all of that on just my shoulders, basically, throughout most of our relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:37]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0And again, I see it. It\u2019s right there. She\u2019s the most involved in finances that I\u2019ve ever seen her and I\u2019m very proud of her for it because I know it takes a lot. And that\u2019s why I kept going back to it. I think we just need to be honest with ourselves. I feel like there\u2019s still gaps.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I noticed that you still struggled to ask for what you need. I think that\u2019s a skill you need to work on individually because if I were in your position and I had the ability and skills and I\u2019d worked through some stuff, probably with somebody third party, I might say something like, until now it\u2019s felt like I was taking on the responsibility of money in this household alone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:29]\u00a0And it felt really lonely, and I don\u2019t feel that I\u2019m particularly skilled at it. I want us as a team to become really good with money. I want to be debt-free. I want us to learn how to spend money effectively. I want us to build a huge financial moat that is savings, investments, so that we are safe and we are growing for the future. But in order to do all that, I\u2019m going to need a financial partner in this, Emi.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:02]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You didn\u2019t say that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:05]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That takes a lot of skill and a lot of introspection to be able to say, here\u2019s what I need from you. But notice Emi\u2019s response. Emi\u2019s nodding the whole time. Emi, how do you feel if he had said that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:18]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0He says it about so many other things. He can do it. He can say no about food. He can whip out that food scale. He can share that he wants to go on a family walk if I want to stay home. He can do that. And I know that he can when it comes to finances, but in all those other aspects, we\u2019ve done it as a team, and in finances, we haven\u2019t. So that\u2019s going to be new.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Guys, if you want hope and you want peace, the only way is straight through the fire. That means paying off your debt first, and acknowledging we did this, and we can fix it, but only if we go straight through it together.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:55]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s so funny. We\u2019ve done this about other areas in our life, about taboo subjects. We have done this. I\u2019m like, I can\u2019t believe this mirror in front of me that I have\u00a0not fucking seen.\u00a0I\u2019m like,\u00a0shit.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So many fascinating threads in that last exchange, like the very common invisible script that student debt doesn\u2019t count. I\u2019m just going to die with it. There\u2019s a lot of morbid student debt holders who love to talk about how one day they\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0die with it. It happens all the time. It happened to Frank on my Netflix show.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:30]\u00a0A lot of people repeat this same phrase. Also notice the challenge in asking for what you want. That\u2019s something I\u2019m personally working on. And my favorite part, when a couple realizes that they excel in one area and they can actually transfer those same skills to money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:48]\u00a0Money is not mystical. It\u2019s not limited to only a few high priests.\u00a0It is accessible to everyone, and that\u2019s why I do what I do. Because I think all of us should have access to save and invest and spend our money on the things that matter to us. There was one other thing I wanted to talk about, this time with Antonio, and I want to hear him ask for what he wants.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Look, savings are a little low, but what can you do? It makes me nervous that you have only 1,500 bucks. That number really theoretically needs to be at least 15,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:24]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree with that. But I feel like this is something that we\u2019ve had deep conversations about, is savings. I\u2019m so focused on that emergency fund, and I\u2019m like, man, I want us to have at least three months. And I think that 300 was actually a compromise that we came to of like, okay, 300 savings, 300 emergency fund. And if I could put more, I would.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:56]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I jump in?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:58]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:59]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so remember what we just did 10 minutes ago about being direct and you calling me out and holding me accountable and I responded and threw the ball back to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:07]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:08]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Can you do that about this, about the compromise?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:13]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I can, but I feel like we\u2019ve already had this conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:15]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0But my mindset, honestly, has changed. And I\u2019m not just saying that to\u00a0bullshit. I feel like there has been a mirror with a giant freaking black construction paper on it and I\u2019m like, get it off. And I have not been able to get it off. And I feel like I\u2019m getting my head above water trying to take the freaking paper off. So I want to revisit these conversations, if that\u2019s okay with you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:39]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now, if something happened to one or both of you, you have enough money in your savings to last you for about one week.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:48]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You see that, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:51]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And you have a young daughter. Incredibly risky.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:57]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Say what you want, Antonio.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:02]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I want us to have a good savings account.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:12]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, I wanted it all.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Say that again. Say it slow and really listen to yourself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:18]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I wanted to put all of it in the emergency fund.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Is that a past tense, or is that present tense?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:25]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess present.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Say it in a full sentence. Look directly at Emi.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:35]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I would like to put the $600 into the emergency fund.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Emi?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:48]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I hear you saying that you want to put $600 and not split it. I\u2019m with you. We\u2019re a team. Let\u2019s put $600 into our emergency fund and get to 15k incredibly faster.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s it? All we got to do is ask for what we want and we oftentimes get it with our partner? Is that what you\u2019re telling me?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:10]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa. Take the win. Good job, you guys. That was really good. That was really good. Antonio, take a breath. Guy looks like he just ran a marathon. What are you feeling, Antonio?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:22]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot. I don\u2019t know. My eyes are rolling up a little bit. I don\u2019t know why that\u2019s so difficult for me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. First of all, great job. That was actually awesome to watch you go step by step by step to ask for what you wanted for. You\u2019re right, by the way. You are right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:50]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m so proud of you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:58]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0I know we\u2019re over on time, but I have to hug him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t care how much time this takes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:04]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You did so good. I\u2019m so proud of you. I know that was hard. You did good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:51]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0I love you.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That single conversation right there has the potential to completely redefine Antonio\u2019s relationship with money. Now, I know we left their fixed cost at 80%, and the fact is all of their easy options are gone.\u00a0So I told them point blank, your incomes need to come up. They can use my Earnable program to learn how to start a side business, which you yourself can check out at iwt.com\/earnable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:18]\u00a0I told them that guilt-free spending needs to stay at that 500-dollar mark. No new car, no vacations, no more credit cards. Focus on earning aside income to cover tithing, or to help pay down debt, and create money rules for unexpected windfalls.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:34]\u00a0Please remember, this is one conversation we have. It takes years to get into a situation like this. Sometimes I see comments from people who are disappointed that I didn\u2019t chant some magic incantation and somehow fix people\u2019s financial situation in four hours.\u00a0That\u2019s not how it works.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:53]\u00a0It was a long process to get into this situation. It will be a long process to get out of it.\u00a0Emi\u00a0and Antonio have serious work to do, but they have finally connected on money. They have become a team. They\u2019ve realized they can do this together. Even if it takes them nine years to pay off their debt, they can do it side by side.\u00a0Truthfully, my guess is that they\u2019ll do it a lot faster than that. Let\u2019s check out\u00a0Emi\u2019s follow-up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:21]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Hi, Ramit. It\u2019s Emi here, checking in. So for the follow-ups, what did I learn? Definitely learned that we were lacking in the communication and taking responsibility and that there needs to be actual concrete behavioral changes that need to be made, and it\u2019s time to dip into our toolbox and learning how to adapt other communication skills to finances, and it\u2019s time to do that. No more time left. The time is now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:51]\u00a0Second thing being what surprised me, it surprised me that I was looking for hope in a spreadsheet, knowing, especially how faith is so important to me, that hope doesn\u2019t come from the spreadsheet. It comes from the Lord. That was a big thing for me, definitely processing that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:08]\u00a0The second thing was, man, the elaborate narrative I am telling myself to avoid. No more. It was put in front of my face. I appreciate you bringing that to light. And I was forced to look in that mirror, and it\u2019s time to change that. No more avoiding.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:27]\u00a0Changes, we have a lot. So our changes being, we\u2019re increasing our debt payment, being more aggressive at $600 a month. We are increasing emergency fund to $600 a month to get that 15,000 number. We are increasing my Roth every month by $50. We updated the CSP to reflect all of these things so that we have something concrete to look back on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:51]\u00a0As far as increasing salary, my husband has some opportunities for overtime that he will definitely be trying to utilize, and I will be potentially opening up my hours at work. This has the potential to bring in an extra four to $800 a month. So that\u2019s something that we are going to be intentional about.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:11]\u00a0And the last thing is the money rule. I love that you brought that up, and I realized we didn\u2019t have any. So a money rule being 50-40-10, this is for any increases or unexpected income. 50% toward debt, 40% toward emergency fund, and then 10% toward guilt-free spending. So whether that\u2019s $100 or 1,000, anything, that\u2019s what we\u2019re going to go buy.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now Antonio\u2019s follow-up<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:42]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0So I learned a couple things. First was how much I am not good at speaking up and saying no, in this case, specifically when it comes to money and money decisions. I think that what surprised me was how much my household dynamics need to change in terms of, yeah, my marriage and finances, but also even in parenting.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:08]\u00a0What this has shown me is the need to be more unified with my wife and just have a firm stance and a firm opinion and to say no and to say yes. The money rules. We have money rules now, at least one. And we also are being very aggressive with a student loan, and I\u2019m very happy about that. Lastly, we\u2019re adding more toward our emergency fund. Also very happy about that. So thank you to you and your team. You guys were awesome. Really appreciate you.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s one last thing. I just wanted to share this moment from their screening interview because it personally means a lot to me and I want to thank\u00a0Emi.\u00a0I want to thank Antonio, and I want to thank every single one of you for watching, listening, and reading my material.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:00]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0Is there anything else that you think is important for him to know?\u00a0For me it\u2019s important to tell him that he\u2019s really helped me and changed a lot of our dynamics already. And that\u2019s not something I ever thought was possible, and so I\u2019m very thankful. And it seems so stupid. It\u2019s like, just a podcast,\u00a0just a\u00a0YouTube channel. But\u00a0what he does matters, and it\u2019s been very, very, impactful.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:28]\u00a0<strong>Antonio:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:28]\u00a0<strong>Emi:<\/strong>\u00a0So even if we don\u2019t get picked, just so he knows that\u00a0what he does matters.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Emi, 32, and Antonio, 29, have been married for six years and have struggled with debt for even longer. Credit cards, personal loans, student loans, refinancing\u2014Emi has kept her head in the sand through it all. Antonio doesn\u2019t trust himself to fix it. Can they break the cycle for their daughter? This episode is brought [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118874","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118874","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118874"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118874\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118874"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118874"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}