{"id":118888,"date":"2024-07-09T15:19:11","date_gmt":"2024-07-09T19:19:11","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118888"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:27:32","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:27:32","slug":"164-taylor-steve","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/164-taylor-steve\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 164. \u201cI stress over money\u2014but we\u2019re seeing Taylor Swift in France tomorrow\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cI stress over money\u2014but we\u2019re seeing Taylor Swift in France tomorrow\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/wWsAqDQW8iA\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/4KvjmxPchCOf5Q3d06j26Y?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Taylor is 39 and Steve is 42. They\u2019re married and live in New York City. Steve lost his job years ago, but has coasted without getting serious about his career. Taylor\u2019s done the opposite\u2014and now she\u2019s ready to buy a home. Does Steve have what it takes to make a change for their future?<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions \u2013 and manage your expenses the easy way \u2013 by going to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>ZocDoc | Download the ZocDoc app for FREE\u00a0 at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/zocdoc.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/zocdoc.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0then find and book a top-rated doctor today.<\/p>\n<p>Grammarly | Easier said? Done. Save time with one click. Sign up and download for free at\u00a0\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/grammarly.com\/podcast\">https:\/\/grammarly.com\/podcast<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Trust &amp; Will | Secure your assets and protect your loved ones. Get 10% off plus free shipping on your estate plan documents by visiting\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/trustandwill.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/trustandwill.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n<h2><strong>Links mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/162-paul-maddie\/\">\u201cWe panic over money\u2014but spend $84K\/year on travel and shopping\u201d #162<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/151-peter-megan\/\">\u201cOur gas is about to get shut off, but I refuse to sell any of my 7 cars\u201d #151<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0You know that quote, all work and no play? He\u2019s like, all play and no work. I don\u2019t want to say I wanted to marry rich. That\u2019s not true. I think I was expecting to have a more traditional relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:10]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I can get the points, I can cash them out or use them for travel versus sending out applications into the either and not necessarily know what happens with them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:20]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve had this conversation, are you going to be contributing to the house or not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:23]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, I really want to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does it feel like you have a partner in that decision making?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:28]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0No. It feels like I have someone that\u2019s along for the ride. It\u2019s been so many years. The trying is great, but where\u2019s the results?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:38]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I just need to believe that for myself. It\u2019s really hard for me to believe in myself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you think you could believe in yourself?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:45]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, I feel like taking mushrooms could help.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d like you to meet Taylor and Steve. Taylor\u2019s 39. Steve is 42. They\u2019re married. They live in New York City, and they\u2019re frustrated. Taylor\u2019s a high achiever. Steve has struggled in his career. They can\u2019t seem to get on the same page with money, and it is causing a lot of problems. And you\u2019re going to hear that in this conversation, which we recorded live in studio in New York.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:10]\u00a0I would highly encourage you to come watch the video on YouTube where you can see a lot of new material, including some behind the scenes clips that we\u2019re adding to today\u2019s episode. Now, the story begins at a recent dinner that they both remember vividly for different reasons. Let\u2019s talk to Taylor and Steve.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:28]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I was just getting over being sick, and we decided to go out to dinner because Steve had this coupon. And I asked Steve about his day. I just didn\u2019t get a lot of response, a lot of answers, which is typical. There\u2019s a shutdown when I ask about his day because he thinks that I\u2019m asking, have you worked on some kind of income stream or something?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:03]\u00a0Which, yeah, that\u2019s part of why I ask. But there\u2019s this tension, this pink elephant in the room with us often when I try to get a little more information from him or connect with him about work stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So when say you go out to dinner, were you at a restaurant?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:04]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And what did you say to him?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:05]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0What did you do? Oh, I emailed someone about something and tried to work on my blog. I\u2019m like, anything else? I try to share things that I\u2019m proud of with him. If he does something, like works on a blog, I\u2019m like, great. That is so great.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:10]\u00a0I try to lift him up. And I think I\u2019ve also gotten to a point, because it\u2019s been so many years, where we\u2019re at a time. The trying is great, but where\u2019s the results? Where\u2019s the stuff that needs to really start happening?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Steve, what do you remember about that dinner?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:21]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0She asked me how was my day. Fine. Then she was asking more and more details, wanting to know. It felt to me like it was a bit wanting to track my schedule not to the minute but really granularly, and I just felt overwhelmed. Once I feel like I\u2019m done talking, it\u2019s hard for me to continue with the nudges and the pushes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you mean by nudges and pushes?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:37]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0She started out with like, how was your day? And then, what did you do? And how is this? Just more and more questions, which honestly, I probably need to handle these questions better and be more self-reflective. But I generally don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Mm-hmm. Why is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:58]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t feel really happy with where I\u2019m at. I feel like it\u2019s something that I don\u2019t love sharing necessarily.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you say you\u2019re not happy with where you\u2019re at, do you mean professionally or also otherwise?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:13]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Professionally. I think personally I\u2019m in a great place.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Cool. So when the topic comes up, feels a bit raw, and you don\u2019t want talk about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:22]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I feel like everyone\u2019s doing better, and it\u2019s something I don\u2019t love talking about.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How often do you talk about your professional work at home?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:35]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Every day, feels like.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:37]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>I talk about mine every day.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:39]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>We talk about it, and then she\u2019ll get mad, and then we won\u2019t talk about it for a while.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A while means what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:45]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0A few days.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:45]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Why don\u2019t we let him answer?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:50]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Recently, it feels like it\u2019s been more. I don\u2019t know. On occasion, in the past, it\u2019s been a few weeks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can you look at me? I notice that when I ask you questions, you\u2019re looking at her. Have you noticed that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:06]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels to me like we talk about it a lot. Because I know I should be earning more and doing more, so for me, I always try to avoid the conversation because I feel like I haven\u2019t improved it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:28]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I know these things. In the moment, I get so angry, and then when I take a step back, I can understand that he feels so down. And I don\u2019t want to add to that. I don\u2019t want to make him feel worse. That\u2019s never what I want to do. I think I just try to balance checking in about it and also giving him space to cope.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And you interpret that as she\u2019s me about work again, and I, therefore, need to what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:57]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Shut down.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>And if you shut down, then what happens?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:01]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels sad and awkward and like, what are we doing here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s how the dinner ended.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:09]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I was quiet for a long time, which I\u2019ve realized I\u2019ve learned from my dad. He will shut down, and I get annoyed by it, but as I get older, I\u2019ve seen more and more traits for my parents in me, which I don\u2019t necessarily love.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Here we have their dynamic. First, Taylor\u2019s the chaser, Steve is the avoider. Second, there\u2019s a power dynamic at work, which we can see not only from income, but also from how Steve looks at Taylor as he answers questions about himself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:38]\u00a0Finally, we noticed that when they talk about money or even about his day, Steve shuts down because he\u2019s not proud of where he is professionally, and this, by the way, reflects his parents\u2019 dynamic as well.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>All right. Take me back to the beginning of the relationship. When was the first time that you remember having a serious conversation about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:58]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I was on a date with Steve, and at the time, I was much different. I don\u2019t want to say I wanted to marry rich. That\u2019s not true. I think I was expecting to have a more traditional relationship where the man makes more. I make less. That\u2019s possible. I was not making a lot, and we had a conversation, and Steve said, if you want to be in a relationship with me, we\u2019re going to have to do things equally, meaning dates.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. And how did you feel about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:32]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Disappointed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I know it was a long time ago, but do you remember what you said in response to that comment?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:43]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And just trying to figure out, I really liked him. I didn\u2019t want to breakup. I also knew in my heart that I couldn\u2019t depend on someone else to support me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back after this short break. Now, back to Taylor and Steve.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:03]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I was disappointed, but not surprised. And it was a good kick that I needed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:09]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0For me, the idea of having a housewife was never something that even crossed my mind. For me, I was so used to everything being equal.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where did that come from?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:24]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I was modeled on this by my parents who are a two-income household. And I was just used to seeing two equal partners in a relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u00a0was the next time that you started talking about money seriously?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:40]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0When your job reduced your salary. That was what, eight years ago?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u00a0happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:46]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0My company wasn\u2019t doing well, so they like cut. I think at the peak, it was about 100,000 a year, and then it was down to like 40,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In what time period?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:57]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Over the span of a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Okay. Big reduction pretty quickly. Can you tell me about how if at all your identity changed inside your relationship? You were earning more than your wife was at the time, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:14]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I was 42,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Steve, you were earning like more than twice as much. All right, so suddenly your income drops to less than 42,000. You\u2019re making 40K. How did that affect your identity?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:28]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I felt really insecure, I guess. I\u2019m so used to being, my whole life, independent, able to do my own stuff, save a lot of money. And then when it dropped, I couldn\u2019t really save very much. I had to be much more careful about spending, but there was something in me that made me feel really bad about myself, sad, frustrated.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long do those feelings last?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:01]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably for a while. I still feel that to some degree now. I felt like I probably could have done more to prevent it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:16]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it sucked, but I didn\u2019t think it would last this long, this confusion and insecurity and regret that he has.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:25]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I got really into points and miles at that point, because I felt like I had to like make it up somehow.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Before we get back to that, I have an announcement to make. This content is not free. You have to pay, and the price is clicking Subscribe. Hit that button so I can keep sending you videos.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:43]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I love getting a good deal. It\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>You always loved that your whole life?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:50]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Even when I was in my teens, I would order the Columbia House CDs and then sell them individually to people. But I definitely think I get caught up in the granular deal stuff too much for sure. And this has been my thought, but also pointed out by Taylor.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re talking credit card points, miles, that kind of thing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:12]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Would you end up on the subreddits and stuff like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:14]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, but even before then I was like, the various forms even before all those churning forms, etc. Random ones.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Like what? Deals?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:26]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I don\u2019t even remember it now, at this point. It\u2019s just random miles.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>What do you love about miles?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:32]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I do love to travel, so I love being able to travel for free. We go on multiple vacations a year for free. We\u2019re going on one in two weeks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>You\u2019re going to France, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:42]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0France, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:43]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>We\u2019re leave tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>How long are you going for?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:45]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Two and a half weeks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Whoa.\u00a0Really? Where are you going to go in France?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:50]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re going to the Loire Valley, and then Paris, and then Lyon for Taylor Swift, and then Provence where we met a magical car last year at a firm. I want to see that car again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>How much do you think that\u2019ll cost?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:03]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re pretty good. We like to eat good food, but we don\u2019t like to spend a ton of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:09]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Fifty a day?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:10]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, fifty a day\u00a0probably.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a050 bucks a day. What about Taylor Swift?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:14]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0That was only 300 each.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s pretty interesting. All right. So 50 bucks a day, maybe a hundred bucks a day for two weeks or so. Would you say that\u2019s fair? Do you set a number when you travel or no?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:28]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0No, we play it by year. Honestly, we did a six-week vacation last year after our cat died, and that ended up a little bit more expensive with food than we thought. And halfway through, we were like, we need to chill a little bit. But for two weeks and with the knowledge of last year, we\u2019ll do pretty well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, fine. What\u2019s behind the points? Why do you love the points?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:55]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels like I\u2019m getting a really good deal, and it feels like I found a way to get \u201cfree\u201d money. I can sign up for these cards. I can get the points. I can cash them out or use them for travel versus sending out applications into the either and not necessarily know what happens with them<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So with the points, you have a sense of control. If I do this, I\u2019m going to get that, and not only that, that turns into our vacation in France. Or I can try to apply for jobs, where I just send my resume over and over into the black hole of doom, and I never hear back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:36]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like that\u2019s true. Yeah. At least for an emergency fund, we have our points as a emergency fund.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the\u00a0fuck? What? I\u2019ve never heard that. Who has points as an emergency fund?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:48]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0We use them for travel, but we could liquidate them for about 40,000, $50,000 right now if we wanted to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? Hold on. Are you serious? How many points do you have?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:00]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Millions.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>How many?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:03]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a03 million Amex, a million and a half Chase, 400,000, 500,000 Capital One and then some various other airline points.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of this actually makes sense. If you go from being the higher earner to the lower earner, that\u2019s going to change relationship dynamics. But there\u2019s also a point where I go, come on, that happened eight years ago, and nothing\u2019s changed? And you spend hours every single day online amassing credit card points? That doesn\u2019t sit right with me.\u00a0And the cherry on top is that when they met, Steve told Taylor that he wanted to split things equally.\u00a0So why isn\u2019t he holding up his end of the bargain?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:46]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I hate to say it but this happening to him in a ripple effect was me becoming more confident and more driven, and I really enjoy it. So it was a positive thing for me over a long period.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Can you draw the line for me?\u00a0So Steve losing his job eventually rippled to you becoming more confident. What\u2019s the connection?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:14]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Because after time passed and things weren\u2019t changing with him, I realized I would have to figure it out. And in figuring it out, and failing, and applying to jobs, not getting them, starting my practice, it really, really has helped me create a full life. I\u2019m really proud of myself. Because he\u2019s so down on the\u2013 like, what could happen on the possibilities. I\u2019m like, I\u2019m going to show him what\u2019s possible. There is this almost competitive, like, see, look, if I can do this, you can do this. And it\u2019s like, do it. You can do it. If I can do it; you can do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:54]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u00a0changed for you to make you start earning a lot more?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:57]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I think a lot of it was losing my confidence in him being able to figure things out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When did that happen?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:12]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Five years ago, six years ago.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:16]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0So several\u00a0years after you lost your job.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:18]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Because he got a pay cut and then he lost the job.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you had that pay cut, did you feel the urgency to get back to the number you used to make?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:26]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I really wanted to, yeah. But I feel like I was also coasting to a degree. My life was great. I had great friends, a great partner. Living in New York, had lots of stuff to do. So I think I could have more urgency.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Do you have urgency today?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:47]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I could probably have more urgency today too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that a yes or no?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:51]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0To be honest, probably no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.\u00a0How long have you gone since the pay reduction until now? How many years has it been?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:05]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Eight years.\u00a0Something around that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So I can understand, pay cut, six months, it\u2019s like, I don\u2019t know what happened. I feel bad. I get it. Maybe the market\u2019s down, recession, a year, 18 months. What do you think happened over eight years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:24]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Every once in a while, I go back and do a burst of it, but I haven\u2019t put in a sustained, consistent effort.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:34]\u00a0<strong>Steve<\/strong>:\u00a0I feel like I lack this urgency. I have my investments, and they are pretty decent. Could be in a much worse spot. I have a great partner who\u2019s earning a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:52]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Not that much. I mean.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you roll your eyes? You are earning a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:56]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s never guaranteed. That\u2019s the thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what? I\u2019m never guaranteed to have legs tomorrow. It doesn\u2019t mean I don\u2019t appreciate them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:03]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s still hard for me to wrap my head around.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Steve, if you had to give me a one-sentence description of the challenge that you\u2019re facing today in your relationship, what would you say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:17]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like I\u2019m not bringing enough to the table financially for us to grow as a couple and for our future.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:27]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I think we have gone through periods where I have accepted this is the reality. I can\u2019t control what he\u2019s going to do. I\u2019m going to focus on myself. And I do. And then we go months or years, and I\u2019m just focused on my own stuff. I\u2019m focused. But then reality hits and it\u2019s like, oh wait, I want to grow. I can do it, I think. It\u2019d be so much easier if he could also contribute a little more. He\u2019s so capable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:52]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I did dabble in day trading.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:56]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. Not anymore.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is this a joke?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:00]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What were you day trading?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:02]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0So I made some money. I lost some money, and I think probably lost a little bit more than I made. Before COVID, I ran into it once, an issue with margin, with\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You were margin trading. Why did you do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:19]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Back in 2007 or so, when 2008 happened.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s a good time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:22]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So overall, has this been worth your time, or no?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:24]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably not worth my time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Do you still do margin trading?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:29]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I still have stocks on margin, but I don\u2019t really trade them very often.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:32]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Help me. Help me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much do you have?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:35]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably about 200,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0$200,000?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:39]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the fuck?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:41]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, is this for real? You have $200,000 in what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:46]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Nvidia, Microsoft, Google. It\u2019s pretty big stuff at this point.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:51]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0But he has to pay every month to be on margin.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:54]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Now that the interest rates are up and even without it, in general, I should not be on margin.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All jokes aside, why do you do margin trading?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:03]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s two things. One, it seems like such a get rich quick idea, which is bad, but for some reason it still appeals to me. And two, it\u2019s another example of me being able to exert control over things. I can buy and sell stocks, just like with the points, versus hoping someone else will give me a shot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s pretty insightful. It\u2019s one thing to be insightful about yourself. It\u2019s another thing to change.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:27]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I feel like I need the leverage to add to my income.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:34]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0So I can approach her income a little bit more.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0One of the things you learn is that some people rarely face failure. And then the first time something doesn\u2019t go their way, it knocks them down, and they can\u2019t recover. We hear this a lot of times from my guests who will recount that their dad got laid off usually when they were a teenager and basically never recovered. That is what we are basically seeing here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:00]\u00a0Now, I also want to talk about the margin account, a high-risk investment strategy, that\u2019s typical of people who feel they\u2019re behind. Whenever someone tells me that they feel behind with their money, it is a huge red flag. Because the next thing they\u2019re about to say is going to make no fucking sense at all. I feel like I\u2019m behind, so I put all my money into crypto. I feel like I\u2019m behind, so I quit my job to get into this MLM.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:25]\u00a0That\u2019s how I\u2019m going to make a ton of money. They\u2019re simply comparing themselves to the figment of some imaginary goal. And it almost always produces dysfunctional behaviors. Let\u2019s look at their numbers. Their assets, $80,000; investments, $691,000; savings, $128,000; debt, $60,000; total net worth $839,000. Their income, for Taylor, is $12,000 a month. For Steve, it is 3,000 a month.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long have you been making a lot of money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:56]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. Four years? I\u2019m in New York.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Don\u2019t do that. Don\u2019t do that. Oh, the hot dogs are so expensive in New York. It\u2019s so crazy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:06]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I wasn\u2019t going to say that. I was going to say that\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh my god, lettuce. It\u2019s crazy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:09]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0What I make in New York is normal.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0170, that\u2019s a lot of money. That\u2019s not normal in New York, by the way. That\u2019s way above median.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:16]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s the thing. I\u2019m still back in this place where I was in, had student loan debt. I was making 40,000 a year. This goal, to make six figures, I would sit on the subway thinking it was impossible. I remember doing the math on my calculator every day on the subway, not knowing how it was going to work out. And it\u2019s like, I did it. I actually did it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Part of the next challenge is now embracing it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:41]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Accepting it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:42]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. I\u2019m so grateful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So Steve, you started getting into the points. How much time do you spend on points every week?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:51]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably multiple hours a day, to be honest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Two, three?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:55]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Three to four.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s say four a day. So that\u2019s 20 plus hours a week.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:59]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. That\u2019s a lot. You earned $60,000 last year, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:06]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That was in your business.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:08]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Correct.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So I heard that that was a good year, but I also heard that that just came to you. Is that right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:16]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:17]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I had worked in the industry for 20 years prior, so yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. That\u2019s interesting because you made 60k. How do you feel about that number?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:26]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Is there a but?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:29]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not consistent. So like this year has been pretty quiet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Quiet means what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:37]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Seven, eight thousand so far.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The whole year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:39]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. You mentioned earlier that the points allow you to feel like you are contributing financially to the relationship. Is that true?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:48]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. All the vacations are free. Obviously, I think big picture, my energy would probably be spent more working on my business and maybe trying to get a new job versus trying to gain for as many points as I can.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But do you believe that? Because how long has it been?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:05]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I actually do, but I love doing the points thing. So it\u2019s like I love traveling, so it\u2019s something where I need to really be serious about where I want my life to head, I think. I need to decide where that is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:23]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I would love to buy a house too and have a huge garden. We both love gardening, but we live in New York, so it\u2019s very difficult here. Have some more cats. I think not have to have these conversations about money and both be totally on the same page. Buy a house, have growth in our lives. I feel like we\u2019re stuck because I feel like I can\u2019t afford having a kid or have a house at this income level.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know why you haven\u2019t changed?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:51]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m pretty content with what I have. I\u2019m not someone that has a ton of drive and needs, is constantly reaching for the next big thing. And I think I\u2019ve been like that for a long time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:03]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0And even before we met, you applied to law school, got into Cornell law, and then was like, eh, I don\u2019t feel like it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s behind that? Why do you think you get to the finish line and then you don\u2019t cross?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:12]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a good question. Fear at some point, I imagine.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I once took a management course where they asked, how do you motivate an employee? And the answer turned out to be, you can\u2019t. When the instructor said that to us, I wasn\u2019t sure if I agreed. It seemed so blunt, so cutthroat. But over time, after hiring and managing lots of people, I\u2019ve come to agree with it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:38]\u00a0If you give me an unlimited budget and unlimited time, maybe I could change somebody. But that\u2019s not the way reality works. If you don\u2019t have the drive, I can\u2019t put it in you. If you don\u2019t want to improve, I can\u2019t make you want that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:56]\u00a0If you don\u2019t enjoy talking to people, I can\u2019t make you want to enjoy it. They either have it or they don\u2019t. So throughout this episode, I\u2019m wondering whether Steve has the motivation or the reason to change. Let\u2019s find out. Were you always successful in school as a kid?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:13]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, very high achieving in school.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Now, what was it like coming from high school where I assume you\u2019re one of the smartest people, most successful? Okay, seeing a lot of nods.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:23]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Perfect SAT score.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Seriously?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:25]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, no, close.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? He\u2019s like 1590.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:28]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know, 1550.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s pretty good. So what was it like going from high school where in a lot of high schools it\u2019s easy, going to college where it becomes a lot harder?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:40]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Since I\u2019ve been a little kid, things came to me pretty easily. I was good in school, then I was good in college, and then I got this internship that turned into a job immediately after school. I\u2019ve never really had to struggle. My parents made sure I didn\u2019t have student loans when I went to school. I guess, honestly, my life was good until my pay got cut.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you have the skills to hustle?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:06]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Not really, I guess. So used to things coming so easily for me. I expected I would apply for a job and eventually get some interviews.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Do you have the skills today?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:19]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe my hard skills in terms of job search have atrophied to some degree, but I\u2019m much more cognizant of everything thanks to Taylor.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to understand a little bit more about your upbringing because your parents you mentioned were professors and they helped you graduate with no debt. What do you remember them saying about money when you were a kid?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:43]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0They were always really good with money. They loved investing. They got me started in the Young Investors Club, I think it was. I always taught that savings was really important. They helped me open up my first Roth as soon as I finished college. I saved $10,000 in a few months after college and then put the rest into another investment account.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do they think of your professional situation right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:09]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t really talk to them that much about it. I told them when I was laid off from my job in 2022 and then when I started my own business right after that. And it went really well last year. So I\u2019ve told them about it, but I feel like they don\u2019t necessarily listen too much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:31]\u00a0They know a lot. I think as professors, they\u2019re used to talking to people or instructing people. So when I say something, sometimes I feel like it goes in one ear and out the other. My sister also doesn\u2019t tell them much about her life necessarily because they\u2019re such big worriers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do they worry about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:55]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You worry a lot?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:58]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I worry, but I don\u2019t do things to alleviate the worry. I\u2019m worried about my financial situation, but I\u2019m not really doing that much to improve it. I\u2019m coasting again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Do we all know why you\u2019re coasting? Does everybody at this table know why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:13]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:14]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Because he\u2019ll always be fine. He\u2019ll always be taken care of.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0By whom?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:18]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Me or his parents.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick pause to support our sponsors. Now, back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:25]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t like admitting it, but it probably is true. It\u2019s I guess crazy to me because I had three jobs. I was working probably 90, 100 hours a week for four or five years after school to make enough money for myself. So obviously, I can do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you confused at your own behavior?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:44]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I\u2019ve gotten just too comfortable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you were single tomorrow, what would you do? Don\u2019t look at her. Look at me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:53]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I\u2019m trying to imagine. It\u2019s so hard to imagine life without her, but probably travel a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How are you paying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:02]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Points.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Taylor, what do you think he would do if he were single overnight?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:06]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0He\u2019d probably be snowboarding, traveling, and probably be just scrounging money from his savings and investing. I think the margin would continue and just managing it all as well as he can until, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Until what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:25]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Until he probably inherits money from his family.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0One of the recurring patterns on this podcast is that people will not make a financial change unless there is a compelling reason to. Your spouse wanting you to change is not compelling enough for most people. Your feeling uncomfortable when the credit card gets rejected at dinner is not compelling enough to change. Even having $50,000 of credit card debt is not enough to make most people want to change. And this truly blows people away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:57]\u00a0Because we all like to believe we are logical, rational people, but none of us is. That\u2019s why we don\u2019t take our health seriously enough. It\u2019s why we don\u2019t read a single book on money, including most of the guests that come on here. The sooner you accept that we\u2019re not logical and rational, the better. The sooner you accept that we typically only make huge changes if we have to, and sometimes not even then, the sooner you can understand what is going on with all of my guests, including perhaps in your own relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:29]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So my mom is the mom that would drive five miles to get cheaper gas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did she say about money when you were a kid? What phrases?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:42]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Stuff like, oh, I got it on sale. But there also was such a discrepancy in what our lives looked like and the money. My dad passed away when I was nine, and I always had this understanding that there was going to be money for my brother, my sister, and I. When my sister turned 25, that was known.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:11]\u00a0But when she turned 25, there was no money left. And so my mom, this was right after the 2008 crisis, was bankrupt at that time. So we grew up in a way, it was a nice house. My mom drove a navigator, all these things that were just very fancy, but not mindful. And she had, I learned over the years, a financial advisor who depleted the funds doing all these trades and stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:40]\u00a0And I\u2019ve had to do a lot of processing around what happened with that money. And when I think about it now, my mom raised three children by herself. She had to spend it all. I get it. But I think there was this understanding, oh, you\u2019ll be fine. There\u2019s money there for you, and there\u2019s money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And she genuinely believed that. She didn\u2019t know what the financial advisor was doing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:06]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So there was a whole thing, and it is what it is. I feel much better about it today than I did back when I was with my student loans and all of this stuff, but I think it taught me a lot of lessons to think I had a cushion, and then no cushion.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What lessons did that teach you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:25]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I can\u2019t depend on anyone else.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you find yourself still living in when it comes to the money messages you received as a kid?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:37]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I think if I\u2019m being honest, I still want a cushion. I want safety and security.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:44]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0If something happens to me, are you capable of figuring out how to make it work?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And is he?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:52]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I will always believe he is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:56]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I just need to believe that for myself. It\u2019s really hard for me to believe in myself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you think you could believe in yourself?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:04]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, I feel like taking mushrooms could help. Am I allowed to say that? I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You can say whatever you want. I did not expect that answer. I\u2019ll tell you that right now.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of their relationship dynamics actually make perfect sense now. Taylor\u2019s dad passed away when she was nine. Her mom promised there would be money, but actually there wasn\u2019t. And today she feels a need for safety and security, and she worries about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:26]\u00a0Steve had parents with high expectations. He had early academic success without really facing any adversity, and the first time things didn\u2019t go right, he fell down and hasn\u2019t gotten up. And why would he? He has multiple safety nets that give him a great life. Again, it all makes sense. Don\u2019t be distracted by the odd diversions in this story, like the millions of credit card points and that comment about the mushrooms.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:52]\u00a0That stuff is just a distraction. This story is actually classic. Taylor wants Steve to want more for himself, to become a financial partner in their relationship. But he has no reason to.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you tell him what he should do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:08]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I try to help brainstorm. I don\u2019t say, you need to do this. Or maybe I do tell him what he needs to do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That sounds like you tell him what to do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:14]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s both. But honestly, I could use the feedback. It\u2019s so easy for me to just be comfortable in my lane.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes getting feedback can be helpful when you\u2019re brainstorming, when you solicit it. But can you think of anyone in your life where when you talk to them, they start talking back at you, and they\u2019re not really listening? They\u2019re just giving you a lecture.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:35]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess, yeah, my parents.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. I wonder if there\u2019s any similarity here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:44]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess you\u2019re right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So let\u2019s put the pieces together. Your mom and dad worry about money. Who else worries about money here at the table?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:53]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Taylor.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your parents talk at you. Who else, not always, but sometimes talks at you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:02]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Taylor.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Is it possible some of the things that you have decided to distance yourself from with your parents, maybe you are internalizing some of that here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:13]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Could definitely see that, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When it relates to money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:15]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And yet, you probably still have to figure out the solution.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:20]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Candidly, if my partner had taken a pay cut eight years ago and had not made moves to become an equal partner, or not even an equal partner, but some meaningful contribution to the relationship, the vacations help, the points help, yes, but sometimes the best points program is just being able to pay for a trip with cash.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:49]\u00a0And if I didn\u2019t feel confident about that, then I might not feel confident about their professional abilities. Where are we going together? I\u2019ve come this far. Is my partner on that journey with me? What do you both think about that? I\u2019m seeing a lot of nods.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:05]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d feel very validated because I really do try so hard to communicate in a way that is respectful, and helpful, or not even do any of it, just focus on my own stuff. But yeah, there it\u2019s been eight years. I feel like it\u2019s fair for me to be concerned.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Eight years is a long time. I think you\u2019re more than concerned. What are you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:31]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Scared?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:33]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Sad?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Scared meaning?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:34]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Disappointed. Scared that it\u2019s never going to change.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I ask a question? What if Steve earned three times more than you? And what if you said, I make some money, but career is not really my thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:51]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0For some reason, I feel like I would be more comfortable with it. I don\u2019t know why. If it goes back to the whole gender roles and stuff, it was already like that, and it was fine for me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meaning you were making more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:04]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what was there? What was the feeling there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:06]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I was totally okay. I wasn\u2019t like, she needs to make more, or she needs to change things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm hmm. Although you did say, we need to be equal.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:17]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, true. Oh, that\u2019s a good point.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I can already tell that a bunch of commenters are going to want me to scream at Steve and tell him, hey, Steve, it\u2019s time to step up and earn more. Get lost. First of all, it\u2019s not my style, nor is it effective to scream at people about money or anything where there\u2019s behavioral change involved.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:38]\u00a0Taylor and Steve both know what\u2019s wrong. They just need a little guidance to say it plainly to each other to acknowledge their true feelings. So no matter how obvious something is to you when you listen to a couple, please remember, it\u2019s easy to critique others. But for my guests, this is a very, very serious challenge, and they want help, not yelling. Back to Taylor where I\u2019m going to ask her to be extremely clear about exactly what she wants.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:05]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I want him to be making $100,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I know that you don\u2019t only want him to make $100,000. I know you wouldn\u2019t want Steve to make 100,000 if he\u2019s miserable at his job. I understand all that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:18]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s stipulate all that. I\u2019m willing to bet, correct me if I\u2019m wrong, that a lot of the conversations between the two of you are you, Taylor, telling him, or suggesting, or nudging how he can get to some indeterminate goal. Have you tried this? Have you logged onto LinkedIn? Have you done this resume website, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:38]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how does that feel to you, Steve?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like I need the prodding. I guess so far it hasn\u2019t really worked. So maybe I don\u2019t\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Only eight years. Maybe eight more years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:50]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I do a lot of what she says. She\u2019s given me so many books to read.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess I\u2019m less interested in the effort and more interested in the outcome. You may believe that you need somebody to nudge you. You\u2019re an adult. You don\u2019t need somebody to nudge you. In fact, number two, I actually think it\u2019s pretty disempowering if someone\u2019s constantly checking. Did you do this? Did you do this? Like a kid. Did you put your boots on? Did you use the bathroom?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:17]\u00a0And after a while, the kid doesn\u2019t even stop to think about using the bathroom themselves. They go, mom and dad\u2019s going to tell me to check on the bathroom, or did I eat, or did I pack this or that. So ultimately, what do we have to do? We have to let them become themselves. And sometimes that means they fail.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:31]\u00a0Sometimes they forget something at home. Sometimes they don\u2019t get a job because they didn\u2019t do their resume the right way. But we have to let them come to their own conclusion. Steve, you have to come to your own conclusion.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:44]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it\u2019s just like, I don\u2019t know what he\u2019s doing. He has to figure it out. I\u2019m just going to do this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, he has figured it out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:50]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You have, right, Steve? You have a pretty good life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:54]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I do feel like I have a pretty good life, but it could be a lot better.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:57]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0It could be more secure, I think.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:58]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s what I was thinking, secure too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:01]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0You know that quote, all work and no play? He\u2019s like, all play, no work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re saying he needs to figure it out. He has figured it out. He\u2019s going to France tomorrow for two and a half weeks. You snowboard a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:12]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You spend hours online every day, optimizing points, which is fun because you can get immediate control over it. What\u2019s to figure out?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:21]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0The future.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you care? How long you\u2019ve been doing this? Almost a decade. It\u2019s pretty good in my opinion.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:28]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I definitely feel like a change needs to be made. I\u2019m 42. I\u2019m not getting younger. If I want to live a good life, a sustainable, good life, I definitely need to make some changes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:44]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0My biological clock is ticking, so if we do want to have kids, that has to be figured out pretty soon. And this is something that a big part of this. I\u2019m ready for a house.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t buy it. When people talk about making an entire lifestyle change for super vague reasons, it\u2019s almost never true. Steve is saying, a change needs to be made. I\u2019m not getting any younger. That\u2019s not a real reason; those are just words. It\u2019s hard enough for people to sell seven cars if they\u2019re facing divorce as we heard on a recent Episode 151. Let me dig into this house though. Maybe there\u2019s something important enough here to change for.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what does it take for you to get it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:26]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s where these complications are coming in. Because if he is not going to contribute financially, that\u2019s going to change the kind of house that I buy. It\u2019s going to change whether or not we\u2019re able to still keep our apartment in the city.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Go ahead. Have the conversation. I\u2019ll just listen in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:40]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. We\u2019ve had this conversation. Are you going to be contributing to the house or not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:45]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I really want to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:46]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you going to be able to?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:48]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0If I take money out of my stocks, I can.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:51]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0What about every month? Not just the down payment. I know what kind of house I can afford on my own, and I can\u2019t be in the apartment if I want to get the kind of house that I want. And so if you can\u2019t contribute to the house, then I don\u2019t know how you\u2019re going to be able to pay for the apartment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:10]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I\u2019m scared leaving New York for a rural place upstate. That gives me some pause too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:18]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0As we\u2019re looking, I don\u2019t need rural. I can do something that\u2019s off the train line. Again, I don\u2019t want to have to give up the apartment. I know a lot of people keep their apartment and buy a place upstate. But if I\u2019m the only one paying for the house, I\u2019m going to have to give up paying for the apartment to afford the house. And so I don\u2019t know if you want to come with me. If you come with me, you have to pay rent. I just don\u2019t feel right about just paying for your life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:47]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want you to pay for my life.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back. Let\u2019s get back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:53]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s hard. It\u2019s like I\u2019m in control. It\u2019s like, okay, I have the finances, so if I want to move, I guess we\u2019re going to move, and you\u2019re just going to have to come with me, and it\u2019s hard. But I know my heart is in this. And I also think there is an element of, I know it\u2019s there for me rising to the occasion.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:13]\u00a0If I have to pay for a house, I have risen to the occasion before, and I will do that. And I hope maybe you will, maybe. Maybe you\u2019ve just been too comfortable. Maybe you can rise to the occasion too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:25]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m worried I won\u2019t be able to, I think is my reaction to that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:31]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I understand why, but you also have never really been in a place where you\u2019ve had to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Let me pause you right there. Do you feel better or worse after having those conversations?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:44]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Generally worse.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:47]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah. More tired.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Taylor, what did you notice as you zoom up and observe the dynamics of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:54]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I felt like a mom disciplining her child, or lecturing, like, I need this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Explain that to me. How would a mom do that the same way you did that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:06]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0If you don\u2019t clean your room, I\u2019m going to\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And what does that make you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:15]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yucky. It\u2019s like I should know better, but I just get so\u2013 this is definitely how my mom was too. It\u2019s a lecture going on, and so it\u2019s ingrained in me. And I do feel like I work hard to try to fight against it, but sometimes the emotion takes over, and I\u2019m trying to figure out ways to make it work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m sure you are. You\u2019ve been trying to do that for the last decade.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:43]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does it feel like you have a partner in that decision making?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:48]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0No. It feels like I have someone that\u2019s along for the ride.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I say we take a five-minute break.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I could see them getting overwhelmed, especially Taylor. And sometimes, you just have to take a break. This let them catch a breath, which also makes my job easier because I want to talk to both guests when they\u2019re engaged with each other and they\u2019re present with me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:09]\u00a0You\u2019ll notice that each of them brings invisible scripts to this relationship, but there\u2019s also a dynamic between the two of them. It\u2019s almost exponentially complex, like 1 plus 1 equals 3,000. And that\u2019s what makes this so confusing and overwhelming to people in the middle of this dynamic. So after we took a break, we came back, and I wanted to bring the conversation back to the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:34]\u00a0<strong>Interview:<\/strong>\u00a0[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we need to look at the numbers because we could be talking in circles all day long.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:37]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But let\u2019s just look at the numbers, shall we? You did the conscious spending plan. What was it like doing that CSP together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:47]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It was stressful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We asked Taylor and Steve to record themselves as they did the conscious spending plan a few days prior. Let\u2019s listen to a few excerpts from that recording.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:58]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0We may as well do this accurately. Okay. 3,000, do you feel like that is what you earn every month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:07]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know, since it\u2019s only been one and a half years so far.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:10]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Can you do this math? I don\u2019t have a calculator.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:13]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you need a calculator for? It\u2019s years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:16]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re being so not helpful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:17]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0What are you talking about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:19]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:21]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m sure we\u2019ll bring this up, Ramit, if you\u2019re watching this, but I feel like my parents are in long-term emergency fund.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:28]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Finish your sentence. What are you saying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:30]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0We should look at getting a cheaper house, not a more expensive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:33]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0If we want to keep the apartment. If we don\u2019t keep the apartment, since we never really go out, we can keep the apartment if you work. I don\u2019t want to leave. I would love for you to just work. So the current monthly were negative. How is that possible? Is that right though? I\u2019m so confused.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was stressful about it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:56]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0The fact that I\u2019m not earning enough right now to really save or be able to contribute to a mortgage. So it was stressful just because we have all our money issues in general that got brought up during it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So you guys are at 61% fixed cost. By the way, just look at these numbers here. Partner 1, that\u2019s you, Taylor, you\u2019re paying 42% of your income towards fixed costs. Partner 2, that\u2019s you, Steve, you\u2019re paying 138% of your income towards fixed costs. What do y\u2019all make of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:31]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not been a good year for me, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:35]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know where he\u2019s getting 138% from.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ll tell you right now. We took all this stuff and divided it by his income. All this adds up to more than 3,000 bucks. Yeah, more than $2,000, his net.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:52]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:52]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, got it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:52]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0But how is he paying it? I guess from savings and\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Stocks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:57]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Stocks, yeah. We have a split wise where he owes me money too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Haven\u2019t you guys been married for almost 10 years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:05]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve been together for almost 10 years, but I feel like I need to, for some reason, stay strict with that because if I just let this 22,000 go that he owes me, I feel like I\u2019m just doing the cushion where he doesn\u2019t really have to try and is just coasting.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s this 22,000 that he owes you? Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:27]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of it was from our wedding because we opened up cards that we put points on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:33]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Random stuff that just accumulates.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, so he owes you $22,000, owes. You said you\u2019re \u201cstrict\u201d about it? So I use quotes, but maybe you\u2019re like no, I actually want that money. You tell me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:46]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I do want it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:48]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Especially if I want to get a house, that would go towards things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What do you think about that, Steve?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:53]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s totally fair.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why don\u2019t you just take some of that money out of your portfolio?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:57]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I should. It\u2019s so hard for me to sell.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:58]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve talked about it. He should just give me some of the stocks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And? What\u2019s your answer?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:04]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Leader. That\u2019s probably generally the answer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:07]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you think it\u2019s smart for him to do that? I feel like\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s one of the worst decisions ever. Let\u2019s continue moving along. Trading on margin, picking individual stocks, especially in a situation where you\u2019re making $3,000 a month, it just makes no sense at all. But it all ties together. Phone subscriptions. I have no comments. Your investments are at 40%. Well, that can\u2019t be right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:33]\u00a0Oh, I know. Okay, I know it\u2019s not right. Because your investments say they\u2019re at 40%. Your savings says it\u2019s at 1%. But then when we go down to everything else, which is your guilt free spending, such as Taylor Swift, it says negative 2%. Meaning, according to this, you\u2019re actually losing money every single month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:52]\u00a0Now, maybe you are, but I know that this number is incorrect, this guilt-free spending number. It says negative 240 per month. So basically, that tells me you don\u2019t ever eat out, you don\u2019t ever travel, you don\u2019t ever take a taxi, and on and on and on. Which we know is not true. What\u2019s this $60,000 in debt? Student loans?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:14]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:15]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s 0% cards, where we\u2019ve been putting it into CDs in the meantime.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the fuck?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:23]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:25]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0He likes to open a card, we meet the minimum spend, puts it into a CD, we make, what, $1,000 in six months? It\u2019s just making it so messy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why are you doing this? It\u2019s such a waste of time. The dreamer would rather dream about being a multi-millionaire than to start investing $1,000 a month. And we can see that by simply looking at your investments. Steve, how much do you invest per month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:49]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0Zero, right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Zero, zero, zero.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:52]\u00a0<strong>Narration:<\/strong>\u00a0[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Steve is a dreamer. A dreamer is someone who believes success is right around the corner, they dream about it, and they typically follow gimmicks like opening up a bunch of credit cards on a 0% trial and investing it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:06]\u00a0You also see the same dynamic with people who day trade, who do MLMs, or otherwise pursue delusional schemes and hustles that they think will pay off big. They would rather do all of these things, even if they are losing money, than to pick a sensible long-term strategy that is boring and highly profitable.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you all really investing $4,000 a month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:29]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s so hard to track this stuff because of all the credit cards that we\u2019re constantly opening, but whatever I have left over at the end of the month just goes towards savings.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? Why is it hard to track your investments when you\u2019re opening up a bunch of credit cards?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:41]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think it\u2019s hard to track the investments. The expenses may be more difficult.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:44]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0The savings. It\u2019s hard to track the savings.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:47]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Because if I\u2019m paying for rent on my card, and he owes me, it\u2019s just really annoying.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know that your financial system is more confusing than mine?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:57]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I believe it. Trust me. You should see how many accounts on my QuickBooks for my business. It\u2019s like I can\u2019t even look at my QuickBooks because I\u2019m so behind. It\u2019s like, there\u2019s so many cards with the points it\u2019s just\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Here, get out of the weeds. Look at me. What\u2019s really happening right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:15]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know how much I\u2019m saving every month because it\u2019s all over the place.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:22]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Because Steve isn\u2019t bringing in an income. He\u2019s complicating with all the points.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you want that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:29]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I do reap a lot of benefits from it, I\u2019m not going to lie.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m going to ask again. Do you want that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:36]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I want it with more stability with cash income. I could do less of it. If I had to trade, there could be much more of a balance.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Taylor is incredibly frustrated that they have all of these accounts, all of these cards, she can\u2019t even figure out how much money they\u2019re saving and investing. But when I ask her if she wants that complexity, which, by the way, comes along with lots of free points that they use to travel the world, she suddenly can\u2019t bring herself to say no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:07]\u00a0We heard the same exact thing in Episode 162, where Paul and Maddie couldn\u2019t let their love of travel go, even when they were spending thousands and thousands of dollars every month on one income. See, people find it very difficult to cut back on something that has become part of their identity, which is why you have to be very, very careful of what you allow to be placed in fixed costs or what you allow to become part of your own personal identity.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:37]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s totally fair. And I obviously should be spending much more time into increasing my income versus these side projects.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you guys think? It feels like you\u2019re just retreading the same old conversation from the last.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:51]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I don\u2019t know if I believe it sometimes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0One of the ways that you love is to help Steve. Is that right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:03]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You told me in your pre interview, Steve is a really smart guy. You said, I know he\u2019s capable. You did a lot of apologizing for him. And then you said this repeatedly, \u201cI know he\u2019s capable, but there\u2019s a block.\u201d You kept describing it as a block. What\u2019s a block?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:24]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Something that\u2019s getting in the way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think that might be?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:30]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How often did you answer questions for him in the pre interview?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:39]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Did I answer them a lot? Yeah, I think maybe part of the block is he doesn\u2019t know what he wants.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:49]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I do want more space and I do want a garden because I love growing stuff, but I think I really value the flexibility and freedom that we have in our lives right now, where we do have our place in New York, but it\u2019s a rental, so we\u2019re not tied to it. I\u2019m not sure what my goals are in life outside of being financially stable and being able to snowboard and travel. So I think for me, flexibility and freedom is probably what I\u2019m most interested in, which is unfortunately the opposite of a house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It is the opposite. At least I think it is. Do you think it is?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:31]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. I\u2019ve never owned a house. It\u2019s definitely not the same level of freedom and flexibility as renting. That\u2019s for sure. There\u2019s definitely an added layer of attachment and responsibility. Sometimes I\u2019m like, if this is what you like to do, I\u2019m just going to have to bump it up and care for us both. I resigned myself to, okay, I guess I\u2019m the one that has to do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you hear what she said? What did she just say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:05]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0She\u2019s resigned herself to it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does it mean to you to hear that from your wife?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:10]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I definitely don\u2019t want to hear you say you\u2019ve resigned yourself to anything with regards to me. I really want to bring more stuff to the table in our relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:37]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I want us to be equal partners again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:39]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I would love that. Oh my God, I would love that. I would love it. Oh my god, it would be amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What would it look like if you were equal partners?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:51]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like we would have fewer fights. It would be so good for our relationship, both in terms of me bringing more to the table financially, but also me feeling a lot better about myself and where our future could go.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you said, I want Steve to earn a 100k, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:18]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s the dream.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In this relationship, it may be the case that you will always be the higher earner. Would you be able to accept that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:27]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Totally.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If he came to you and he said, okay, I got a job. I\u2019m making 80k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:32]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. It\u2019s not necessarily about the number per se, but about everything behind that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:38]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. The effort.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The effort. Steve, finish the sentence. It\u2019s not just the number. It\u2019s what? It\u2019s the effort. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:46]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s me showing I can pull myself up and that she doesn\u2019t have to worry about taking care of everything herself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How does that make you feel as you say it out loud?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:59]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s something I really want to do, I think. But I\u2019m stressed about how to do it. It just feels like now, eight years in, it\u2019s like, how can I get myself out of this? I\u2019ve been stuck for so long.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This was a really difficult conversation. It\u2019s one thing to have mismatched expectations of money. That\u2019s common. But if one partner is driving everything in the relationship, and the other is not even willing to talk about money constructively, that is a huge red flag.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:31]\u00a0You can see that Steve is a combination of an avoider and a dreamer. He avoids conversations about money and participates in activities that are more about the dream of being financially successful than actually financially successful in the way that Taylor wants. She\u2019s asking for a partner, but because of his behavior she\u2019s been placed in the position of berating him and checking in on him. And it\u2019s not fair.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:56]\u00a0Of course, Taylor plays into that dynamic too. She provides for Steve. She also enjoys those trips, and she hasn\u2019t yet set a firm boundary of what her financial expectations are and what will happen if those expectations aren\u2019t met. That\u2019s what makes these dynamics so frustrating and so difficult to unwind.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:16]\u00a0Let\u2019s hear their follow-ups. First, Steve.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:20]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0For me, the biggest surprise was definitely finding out that I had a significant number of ingrained gender roles and ideas. I don\u2019t really feel like I\u2019m someone that necessarily ascribes to traditional gender roles. I really realized how much I like couching things, both language wise and action wise.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:49]\u00a0And for next steps, getting on a margin, stopping the points game for at least a few months, at least until I get a job or improve my business, and really focusing on action instead of words. But obviously having agency is possible, so I am going to use my agency and make things happen, get a job, improve my business, really make our life more sustainable. So those are my action steps.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now Taylor\u2019s follow-up. Hers is lengthy, but I want to include it because it is so revealing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:35]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0The biggest surprise for me from the conversation was how validated I felt by the whole thing. I think I\u2019ve spent a lot of time really looking on the bright side of our situation and focusing on the positive, at least we get to travel and do all these great things.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:54]\u00a0I think I\u2019ve been denying for a long time the fact that this is just a crazy situation that my husband hasn\u2019t been working for basically eight years. I loved that, Ramit. It seemed to me like he was really focusing on Steve for the conversation instead of me, which I appreciate because I don\u2019t really feel like this is my issue. It\u2019s his.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:16]\u00a0The biggest takeaway for me, I think, was all around my boundaries. I just haven\u2019t been setting effective boundaries. I think for me, I\u2019ve been focusing more on this money that Steve owes me and just reminding him about it. But that\u2019s not what motivates him. And so I have switched up the way that I am setting boundaries.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:38]\u00a0No more cards for me until Steve is earning a normal income, especially for someone with his intelligence level and his education level. The other boundary I decided to put in place is we have a trip already booked to Japan in January, and I told him I\u2019m not going to be going unless those income parameters are met.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:58]\u00a0Because I would love to go, but I can sacrifice that for myself. I don\u2019t think it makes sense. I can\u2019t control what he\u2019s doing. I did request that he not open any cards for himself either. We met in the middle, and he said he\u2019d only open one until things change, and I\u2019m like, whatever, one is fine.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:18]\u00a0I can\u2019t help him, and I feel validated in that. I know I can\u2019t help him. I don\u2019t want to be like his parents, just nagging him in one ear, out the other. I don\u2019t want to talk about this anymore. I don\u2019t care how he does it, but he needs to do it. He needs to check in with me every Friday. I\u2019m not going to mention it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:35]\u00a0I\u2019m not going to ask him anything. It\u2019s all in his court now. He did miss this past Friday, and so I ended up sending him an email to get in his inbox 4:00 AM because I didn\u2019t want to talk about it. I just said, you missed the reassurance check in. It\u2019s okay. But if you miss it again, on vacation, if he misses it this Friday, Saturday, I\u2019m spending the day by myself.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:58]\u00a0I don\u2019t want to be around him. And I\u2019m going to start to immediately request $5,000 of what he owes me into my account. I don\u2019t care. This feels like I\u2019m parenting, but I\u2013 the other thing, which I\u2019m just now realizing as I\u2019m talking about it, is when we spoke right after the conversation, I requested that he, I think it was a Wednesday that we spoke, by Friday, he gets out of margin, and he needs to let me know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:27]\u00a0And he did not. I feel very uncomfortable with margin. He needs to get out of it. I\u2019ve been too lenient for too long, and I\u2019m just\u2013 yeah, we\u2019re on vacation, so I don\u2019t want this trip to be ruined. I feel like I\u2019ve been a little bit more quiet than usual on this trip. I have a lot on my mind about everything we spoke about, and when we get back, the margin stuff, it\u2019s still in the back of my head.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0My crew also had a chance to ask them what they thought of right after speaking to me. Let\u2019s hear what they said.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:00]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0Working with Ramit was really interesting. I really enjoyed talking with him because I felt so validated. I feel like for the past eight years I just wasn\u2019t sure what to think or what to do about the situation, but I think the severity of my concern is valid, and I\u2019m really, really hoping that there are going to be some positive changes soon.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:00]\u00a0<strong>Steve:<\/strong>\u00a0I really enjoyed working with Ramit. It was definitely uncomfortable and probing, but I really feel like I needed him to be like that, to access stuff that I really didn\u2019t really want to talk about. I expected it to be tough and challenging, and it really was. We have a tough issue, and I feel like he really helped get to the roots of it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:40]\u00a0<strong>Taylor:<\/strong>\u00a0It was just so great to meet him in person. I feel really honored, and it was a special experience. I\u2019m really, really grateful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Taylor is 39 and Steve is 42. They\u2019re married and live in New York City. Steve lost his job years ago, but has coasted without getting serious about his career. Taylor\u2019s done the opposite\u2014and now she\u2019s ready to buy a home. Does Steve have what it takes to make a change for their future? This [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118888","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118888","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118888"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118888\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118888"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118888"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}