{"id":118889,"date":"2024-07-30T15:22:04","date_gmt":"2024-07-30T19:22:04","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118889"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:26:55","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:26:55","slug":"167-ashley-brandon","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/167-ashley-brandon\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 167. \u201cWe took a loan to pay off our credit cards\u2014and maxed them out again\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe took a loan to pay off credit cards\u2014&amp; maxed them out again\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/dclbGIoQJ1k\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/7I68hWwx88q8W1hw4S675G?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Ashley is 29, Brandon is 30. They have been married for six years and have accumulated $261,000 in debt. Despite taking out a surrogate loan, they are still unable to have a baby. Ashley is desperate for a partner, but Brandon struggles to engage\u2014at home, and in this conversation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions \u2013 and manage your expenses the easy way \u2013 by going to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Trade | Right now, Trade is offering our audience a free bag of coffee with any subscription at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinktrade.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/drinktrade.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Pique Tea | Get up to 15% off and 12 tea samples at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/piquelife.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/piquelife.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Next Level Wardrobe | Dress like an elevated version of you. Take a free styling quiz at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/nextlevelwardrobe.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/nextlevelwardrobe.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Before we start today\u2019s show, I have a really exciting announcement that I\u2019ve been wanting to share for a long time. On January 1st, 2025, I\u2019m releasing a new book called Money for Couples. For the last three years you\u2019ve heard me on this podcast speaking to different couples every single Tuesday. I\u2019ve spoken to over 170 couples on this show about their money psychology, the money messages they heard from their family, the peculiar dynamics that they have around money, where they get stuck, and how they can get on the same page.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:30] Well, behind the scenes, I\u2019ve been working on the definitive book to help couples get on the same page with money, and that\u2019s what I wrote for you. It\u2019s coming out January 1st, and in the book, I\u2019m going to share how to talk about money, including the exact words to use, when to talk about it, how to teach your kids about money, even the exact agenda and account setup that my wife and I use in our finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:54] I\u2019m going to share the tactics to make instant improvements, like how to set up your accounts to automatically work together and how to assess your financial health. And finally, you\u2019re going to get a deeper understanding of money psychology in your relationship, and you\u2019re going to discover why you and your partner see money differently and how to get on the same page.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:14] Now, it\u2019s one thing to listen to couples or watch couples every single week. I love doing that for you. But it\u2019s a whole different thing to be able to have the book and to be able to work through it with your partner.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:26] I\u2019m so excited to get this book in your hands. You can pre-order it using the link iwt.com\/moneyforcouples. Stay tuned for a lot more on this book this year. Again, go to iwt.com\/money for couples to pre-order my new book about getting on the same financial page as your partner.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:50]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0He just wants to be able to spend. It\u2019s really hard for me to say no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aAshley is frustrated that Brandon isn\u2019t involved in their finances. \u200aDo you ever bring up money yourself, Brandon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:04] \u200a<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Only if I want\u2013 like when I was wanting to buy the snowmobile.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aShe\u2019s 29, he\u2019s 30, and they are deeply in debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:13] \u200a<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0We did a debt consolidation loan, paid off our credit cards, and then maxed out our credit cards again, I mean, every single one of them\u2013 over $100, 000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aShe tiptoes around their feelings, not wanting to upset him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:29] \u200a<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess there is things I just don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:32]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aI don\u2019t want him to feel unworthy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aThey walk on eggshells, but their finances are getting worse and worse.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:40]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200a We\u2019ve always had this, like, oh, we\u2019re going to make more money, and then it\u2019s going to be better. And it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aAshley plays her role, but this is really about Brandon. He hasn\u2019t really faced any financial consequences. Ashley absorbs them for him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:58]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aHe can\u2019t haul a snowmobile without the truck. He can\u2019t haul his four-wheeler without the truck.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:04] \u200a<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is this a joke?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:06]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aNo.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200a What other toys are hiding in there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:09]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aHouse, snowmobile, four-wheeler, pit bike, car, a riding lawnmower, push mower, a camper.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And soon they have an important decision to make about their family one where money will play a central role.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:22]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aWe took out another loan to pay for a surrogate, and we lost it. And then the money was gone, and there was no baby.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aShe disempowers herself from having the final say in these important financial decisions even though she\u2019s the one managing the day-to-day money. \u200aAshley wants to pay off debt faster and you want to live life? Is that the bottom line?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:48]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aYeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aGuys, that\u2019s not a functioning financial partnership. Ashley and Brandon have a fascinating story to share, one that I think is very common.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:58]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0\u200aThis is going to be uncomfortable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s meet Ashley and Brandon.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:15]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now our goal is getting out of debt. I brought up the idea of selling a vehicle that is not a necessity. It\u2019s Brandon\u2019s truck, and it wasn\u2019t an argument necessarily, but just isn\u2019t something that we agree on because he doesn\u2019t want to sell it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, paint the picture for me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:37]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I work from home, so if I need a vehicle, I will get up in the morning and I will drive you to work and then I will have the vehicle for the day and I will go pick you up. And I tried to problem solve needing two vehicles. He did not feel comfortable selling it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019d he say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:55]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0He had reasons why, because we have a boat that we don\u2019t use.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? You have a truck and a boat? Okay, go on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:06]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0A boat sounds fancy. It\u2019s not, and he does do some woodworking, builds garden boxes, and when he delivers them, he needs the truck to deliver them. And he just likes the truck. If he wants to haul his snowmobile, he can\u2019t haul a snowmobile without the truck. If he wants to haul his four-wheeler, he can\u2019t haul his four-wheeler without the truck.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is this a joke?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:32]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. We might as well just get a full inventory of all the stuff you own. So you have a truck, a snowmobile, a four-wheeler, a boat, what else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:43]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0A pit bike.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? What is that? Oh, like one of those bikes that goes on the dirt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:48]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s like a dirt bike, but it\u2019s a smaller version.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. Go on. So you suggested the gentle idea of perhaps selling the truck and then he said what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:01]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0And it was always like, yeah, I don\u2019t think I want to sell it, and that\u2019s still where we\u2019re at with it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Brandon, what do you remember about that conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:15]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0She asked to sell it and I gave her the reasons why I didn\u2019t want to, and I enjoy having the truck for when I do need it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you ever bring up money yourself, Brandon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:27]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Only if I want to purchase\u2013 like when I was wanting to buy the snowmobile<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did you bring it up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:36]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I told her that I had found the snowmobile, and it was a really good price for what it was, and that I enjoyed riding them when I was younger and just wanted to get back into snowmobiling.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is there an ask it there, or were you telling her, or what was the deal?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:55]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0She had looked over the budget and we ended up getting a little loan for it. And then went picked it up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much was the snowmobile?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:06]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a02,500 bucks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What interest rate? Do you know?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:10]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ashley?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:13]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t remember.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long did it take you to pay off?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:18]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, 3 or 4 years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh. What do you think about that? Shit. I shouldn\u2019t have given my reaction the way I did. That\u2019s why I don\u2019t play poker. All right. Well, even knowing my reaction, what do you think about four years to pay off a 2,500-dollar loan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Looking back at it, I probably should have waited.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah? For what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:39]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Till we had the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So the primary challenge that you\u2019re both facing is you have debt, and you disagree about how aggressively to pay it off. Is that right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:52]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, Ashley, you want to pay it off what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:55]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0As aggressively as possible. So right now we\u2019re paying way over what our minimum payments are to try and get especially the credit card debt paid off as soon as we can. That\u2019s been my main focus because the interest rate is so high. And then after that, I have kind debt payoff schedule that\u2019s snowballing all of the payments.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And Brandon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:25]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I was more of minimum payments just so we weren\u2019t strapped.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Do you know how much you spend per year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:35]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we spend more than we need to, so I know that we could be putting more towards it. But I know that Brandon has expressed not wanting to stop living and stop having some of the luxuries of life to pay off the debt that we\u2019ve accumulated.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:00]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0So I\u2019m trying to find some balance between those two things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Why are you the one finding the balance, Ashley, out of curiosity?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:10]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0He doesn\u2019t really have or doesn\u2019t seem to have any interest in figuring out the financial piece of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does that concern you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:20]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0It frustrates me. It feels like it\u2019s all on my shoulder sometimes to figure out how we\u2019re getting out of the debt or when, because things weren\u2019t always what they are right now, like salary wise or whatever. But when we have been in a worse situation, I was always the one figuring out where rent was coming from or how we\u2019re paying the mortgage. And now I\u2019m the one figuring out how we\u2019re going to pay off our debt and he just wants to be able to spend the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why are you the one doing it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:04]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know why he doesn\u2019t want a piece of it. I don\u2019t know if he thinks he can\u2019t. I try and get him to sit down with me to pay the bills and do it together, but he just doesn\u2019t seem to be interested in doing it together.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m going to ask again, same question. Why are you the one doing it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:26]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Somebody\u2019s got to do it.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:31] Let\u2019s get back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brandon, what\u2019s your reaction hearing Ashley talk about how she describes herself taking on a lot of the financial burden in the house, the responsibility?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:44]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I totally agree. , I guess I just felt like she had a more understanding and knew how everything worked, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Then when she says, hey, we need to sell this truck, wouldn\u2019t you just go, sure, you\u2019re the one who runs the money. I\u2019ll do what you say.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:09]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess, yeah. Now, I guess I\u2019ve got a different look at things and realize that there is a lot of debt that needs to be taken care of. I do want to get on the same page and get it figured out on what can be done and try to be more involved with it, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Ashley, did you know this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:36]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No, this is the first that I\u2019m hearing this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So should we just make the debt payoff plan right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:46]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0That sounds good to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That was the least convincing thing I\u2019ve ever heard on this podcast.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Come on. You have a guy who owns a truck, a snowmobile, and tons of other toys. He avoids money. He doesn\u2019t want to sell the truck, and suddenly in the first three minutes of our conversation, he says he wants to make a debt payoff plan? I don\u2019t buy it, not in a million years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:13] One mistake here would be for me to simply take his comment at face value, bulldoze through some plan, and then hand it over to them knowing that they are never going to execute on it. There\u2019s just not enough foundation yet. So I would rather slow down, try to understand what\u2019s going on here, even if it means taking more time, a lot more time to push him to get honest.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:36]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess just growing up we didn\u2019t ever have money to do anything or buy stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You grew up poor, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:46]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you think about being a kid, with your parents, what kind of phrases you remember them saying about money when you were a kid?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:57]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I heard a lot of just, we don\u2019t have money for that. I just thought that was how life was. And then after moving out and realizing that there is more than what I had, that\u2019s what I just had a poor life growing up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:20]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0He lived in an unfinished basement. His bedroom didn\u2019t have a door.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really quickly, if you enjoy these videos and you want to be the first to know when we release next week\u2019s, make sure you hit that subscribe button now. It helps me and it helps my team grow.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:36]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0He just lived in a very different way than I did. Their holidays were different. The first Christmas I was at his family, there were five presents under the tree for three kids. You just felt like they just couldn\u2019t give to them, but I think it also was a combination of couldn\u2019t and wouldn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wouldn\u2019t means what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:06]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I think they were a little more selfish with how they spent their money than how my family spent their money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:14]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0So when they had money, they spent it on things like alcohol and cigarettes and things that his parents wanted and not things that they would go towards their kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brandon, what lessons did your parents teach you about money, knowingly or unknowingly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:38]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0There wasn\u2019t a whole lot of teaching. My dad had a notebook that he would write down the bills and stuff, and that\u2019s how he would pay them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ashley mentioned the alcohol and the cigarettes that your parents got. What do you make of that when it comes to spending?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:54]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Back then I didn\u2019t really think about it, but growing up, as I got older, I realized that it wasn\u2019t something that they needed. It was just something that they wanted.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What\u2019s the difference?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:09]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0That it wasn\u2019t a necessity.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you resentful at all?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:16]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I would say, yeah, just because they made it a priority to spend the money on that kind of stuff instead of things that we could have used.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you feel looking back on your upbringing? How do you feel about the money part specifically?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:43]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Now I feel great on the money that we do have.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Tell me more. What do you mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:53]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess just being able to buy the things that I do have and being able to appreciate that stuff and having the opportunity to do those things that I enjoy, the four-wheeler and snowmobile and stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:11]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0And then I ended up losing my brother in 2018 and just thought that enjoying life was more important.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Important than what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:26]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Paying off all the debt right away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sorry about your brother.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:31]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So after that happened, you already had debt at that point. And did you just accelerate your spending at that point?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:42]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I would say it got worse.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brandon learned that he has to live for today, like many people who grew up poor. And his brother\u2019s tragic death obviously played a role as well.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:54]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0My parents are divorced, so I had two households, and they were managed very differently. My mom, it was just her in our house, and it was definitely more difficult. She never would say anything about money, but I could tell in how we would eat dinner. I knew that if we were having like ramen for dinner, that that was a time that things were tight. If we were having chicken, then I knew that that was a good week, that we had money to have meat for dinner.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Did you learn to pick up on these subtle signs and then regulate your own behavior and what you said to your parents?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:45]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Once I got to an age where I could tell that there was a difference, I tried not to ask for things unless I needed it. And I really tried not to ask for things just because I wanted it, or just because it was cool to have it or because kids at school had it. I didn\u2019t have the cool sneakers or the cool backpack or the cool clothes because it was too expensive. So I didn\u2019t ask to shop at those stores. We would shop at Kohl\u2019s because their clothes were cheaper than shopping at Abercrombie or wherever kids were getting clothes from.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What lessons did your parents teach you about money, knowingly or unknowingly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:29]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0To spend money when you have it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh. Why is that? Spend money when you have it because?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:38]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Because you don\u2019t know when you\u2019re going to have it again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So did you learn about anything long term related to money, saving? I know it wasn\u2019t investing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:51]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Saving?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:53]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. No phrases like, put money away for a rainy day or something like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:58]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m asking because she dances around topics with Brandon. Like she said, I suggested a lot of things. I told him I would pick him up from work. And people who do this, they dance around. They walk on eggshells. They often learn it from one of their parents. And common examples are an alcoholic or narcissistic parent, although it doesn\u2019t always have to be that extreme.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Give me the bottom line here. What is it? Ashley wants to pay off debt faster and you want to live life? Is that the bottom line?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:29]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can we back up and talk about what\u2019s really going on here? How long have you two been married?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:38]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Seven years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how did you meet?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:43]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Through Facebook.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Cool. Did you grow up in the same area?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:49]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0No. We lived an hour apart from each other.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What general vicinity was that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:54]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Minnesota<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What age were you when you met Ashley?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:59]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a017.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a017. Okay. What was your financial situation between 17 to 20?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:11]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Not good. I wasn\u2019t making a whole lot of money. She paid for a lot of stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:17]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:17]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:19]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa. Tell me about this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:24]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Dinners, movies.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:26]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Clothes, food.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you like that, Brandon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:31]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Not really. No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:32]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I wanted Brandon to get a job. He didn\u2019t have a job when we started dating.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:39]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0And he didn\u2019t want to get a job.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Huh? Why not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:45]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0His family is very different than mine. And I had a lot of ambition. And I had a lot of encouragement and motivation at home.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:57]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0They just wanted me to be home as long as possible, I think.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just like small town, we don\u2019t want you going away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:05]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0For sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe you get some different ideas, but basically family is important and we want to stay a tight unit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:11]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:14]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we discussed it for a good, I don\u2019t know, six months before I was like, shit or get off the pot, basically. And he did get a job that he biked to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did you make at that job, Brandon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:33]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I started off at 5.75.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. 5.75 an hour. All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:40]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t care about paying for anything. I cared about the intention behind him not paying for anything. Even if he paid for one out of 10 things, I was fine with that. If he was doing something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I hear you.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick pause to support our sponsors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:01] Now back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s not about how much somebody makes, down the second decimal place. It\u2019s not about what micro percentage they contribute. It\u2019s about, are we aligned on values? Do you want to work? Do you want to be a partner in this business, the business of running a household together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:22]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you basically created a soft ultimatum, or maybe it was a true ultimatum. Like, get a job or get out. Was that it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:31]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Damn. And it worked.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0It did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. What did we all learn from this example? Anybody? What is it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:42]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I think it was good that I was more firm in expressing my needs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You told me you talked about it for six months. And the only thing that got Brandon to change was what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:55]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Giving him an ultimatum.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brandon, do you receive that message?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:02]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You think that that\u2019s true?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:06]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Does she still pay for more?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:16]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What do you understand about your family finances?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:26]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0That I never paid attention to it at all.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So y\u2019all got married. Did anything change with your finances after you got married?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:41]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0We did something big after we got married. Maybe you could say that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:46]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Bought the house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did the house cost?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:48]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0155.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0155. Okay. How did you decide that you were going to buy a house and also how much house you could afford? Can I interrupt for a second? Do you feel like you\u2019re being interrogated right now, Brandon? I feel like I\u2019m pulling teeth to get answers out of you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:19]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess there is things I just don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is to call out the elephant in the room. That is true in business. That is true in personal life. Brandon has been replying to me with one-word answers since we started talking. Coming on here talking about their financial details is uncomfortable. I get that, but I also know that they called me for help.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:44] My team prepped them, tells them exactly what to expect. We require them to listen to at least one previous episode, and we give them multiple chances to say no before they ever talk to me. So anyone who comes on this show really, really wants to be here. That\u2019s why it is extremely hard for me to work with someone if they\u2019re not present and they\u2019re giving me short one-word answers.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What I\u2019m hearing is you two don\u2019t communicate about money a lot, correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:17]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Correct.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:17]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0We communicate about money when he tells me that he\u2019s frustrated that he feels like we don\u2019t have any money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How often does that happen?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:28]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Frequently.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:30]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0If we\u2019re making more than what we used to be, how come we\u2019re always so tight on money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And when you\u2019re asking Ashley that question, what are you hoping she tells you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:47]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess I was hoping that she would say that there is more money that we could be spending. I still want to be able to do stuff and not put ourselves in a place where we can\u2019t enjoy doing things but still want to be able to pay off our debt quicker.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I\u2019ll take you at your word. If that\u2019s what you want, I can help you do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:20]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re willing to cut out some of the things that you are currently spending money on?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:29]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s an uncomfortable topic in relationships, talking about ultimatums and boundaries and consequences. In many ways, it feels a little icky. It can even feel like parental childlike. You give a child a time out if they don\u2019t do something. We don\u2019t really want to think of our adult intimate relationship like that. And yet, having standards is so important, so important. Having expectations, so important. I\u2019m sure you have a bunch of expectations, but it seems like around money, maybe not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:10]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I have expectations that I don\u2019t want to express because I don\u2019t know if he will want to live up to them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If he doesn\u2019t, what then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:23]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m afraid of what that means.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brandon, do you have any financial expectations?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:29]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think so.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:34]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I think he doesn\u2019t know enough about finances to have expectations.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, Ashley, I think it\u2019s a fair point you make. Brandon may not know enough about personal finance in order to have expectations, like I don\u2019t know enough about cabinetry to have any expectations. Are you okay with that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:59]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I\u2019m not okay with him not knowing, but I don\u2019t want him to know that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:05]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I will absorb that burden for him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:09]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0So I feel like it\u2019s my job to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just like it was your job as a kid to tiptoe around your parents when money was tight, and you didn\u2019t bring up certain things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:25]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just like when Brandon came to you and said, you were sitting there and you said, I want you to consider getting rid of the truck. And instead of telling him, I run the finances in this household. This is what we need to do. Let\u2019s have a discussion, but this needs to happen. You said, yeah, I could pick you up. It\u2019s not forever. And you making all these kind of concessions and promises about the future to try to get him on your side. And it never works, does it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:58]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is the dynamic going on there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:02]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not being assertive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:06]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to protect how he feels. I don\u2019t want him to feel less than. I don\u2019t want him to feel unworthy. I don\u2019t want him to feel like he should know something that he doesn\u2019t know when it\u2019s not his fault that he doesn\u2019t know it because he just doesn\u2019t know it. And I don\u2019t want him to feel bad for that. And so I just absorb that myself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What are the consequences for your relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:44]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I take on a lot of that burden myself, and I think I hold a little bit of resentment because of that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:56]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I wish we did it together. I wish we held that burden together. And there are things that I expect or I need that I don\u2019t voice my opinion on. There are things that he wants or wishes that I don\u2019t agree with and I don\u2019t voice my opinion on them because I don\u2019t want him to feel unworthy. He has felt that for so long. I don\u2019t want to be the person to make him feel that way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s pretty deep stuff. Let me check in with you, Brandon. What are you hearing as Ashley says that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:41]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I know that she\u2019s a lot better at handling that stuff and believe that she has good intentions on getting us out of what we\u2019re in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s just a story. She\u2019s better at money because she\u2019s taking the time to learn a little bit about it, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:01]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But Ashley, are you great at money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:04]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s actually the worst of all worlds. You\u2019ve given her all the work but you micromanage and say like, I want money for this snowmobile. I want money for this, and I\u2019m not going to sell the truck. You\u2019ve put her in an impossible situation. Do you see that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:21]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:22]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0And I also struggle with telling him no, if he wants to buy something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:31]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I know how long he went without. And so when he asks if he can buy something, it\u2019s hard for me to say no. And he does work really hard. And so I know he deserves things. It\u2019s never that he doesn\u2019t deserve things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that word mean, deserve?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:52]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s been a common discussion that he feels that he doesn\u2019t get rewarded for his hard work. And so if he asks for something, I want to be able to reward him for that, or be able to make him feel like he did a good job, or he was enough, or he\u2019s providing for our family or whatever it is that\u2019s going to make him feel good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you hearing what you\u2019re saying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:27]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I hear it, and I know that I shouldn\u2019t, but it\u2019s really, really hard for me to say no to I him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How hard is it? Because if I\u2019m looking at your amount of debt, you have $261,000 of debt. So it costs you $261,000 to not be able to say no. It\u2019s going to cost you probably $400,000 if you stop spending today. So it costs you $400,000 to not be able to say no. Was it worth it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:00]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it wasn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re actually not doing him any favors by taking all this burden on yourself. Because if you got hit by a bus tomorrow, if something happened to you tomorrow, he knows very little about anything financially. Do you know why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:17]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Why he knows very little?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:20]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I control everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve taken on everything. He has no reason. Guys, that\u2019s not a functioning financial partnership.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:32]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0And I\u2019m struggling with, I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m supposed to be educating him. I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m supposed to have to, but I also feel like I have to because he doesn\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You don\u2019t have to educate your partner about money. It could be you. It could be a book. It could be any number of things. But it\u2019s less about the supply, who educates, and more about the demand. Does the partner want to learn about money? Brandon, I don\u2019t get the sense that you do. Correct me if I\u2019m wrong.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:16]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Never been anything that I\u2019ve thought about.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t mind if someone doesn\u2019t understand the technicalities of money or even the basics. A lot of us we\u2019re never taught that, but I\u2019ll tell you that it\u2019s really hard to move forward if they don\u2019t want to talk about money or if they simply don\u2019t care. We also need to acknowledge that Ashley plays into this dynamic.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:39] She\u2019s effectively subsidized Brandon since they first met. I don\u2019t just mean financially, I mean handling the labor of the finances. Then she tiptoes around offering concession after concession, disempowering herself, but ultimately never actually saying no. Ashley plays her role, but this is really about Brandon.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:58] If he doesn\u2019t change, how can they ever be partners? Money is not just something like who\u2019s going to water the plants. Money is something that will play a role in their relationship for every day until they die. Money will affect where they live, what they eat, their family, what they do for fun, their safety, even their daily stress level.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:16] Ashley is not only financially supporting her husband, she\u2019s shielding him emotionally and intellectually, and she disempowers herself from having the final say in these important financial decisions, even though she\u2019s the one managing the day-to-day money. Now, this is really complex stuff. I\u2019m not a therapist.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:34] I always encourage my guests to see one, and that\u2019s exactly what I told Ashley and Brandon, and I genuinely hope that they do. There is another time-sensitive issue around money that I want to talk about.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:47]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0We took out another loan to pay for a surrogate. But our credit wasn\u2019t great, so our interest rate is high. And we went through the whole process, and we had a surrogate. We went through everything. She ended up pregnant and we lost it. And we went through IVF with her and the transfer didn\u2019t work. And then the money was gone, and there was no baby. So we\u2019re paying that loan, and we have no baby. I don\u2019t want to say I regret it, but we really were motivated to start a family.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So I understand that you\u2019re thinking about starting a family. What\u2019s the financial considerations there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:30]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s expensive. That is a large portion of our debt right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:40]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:40]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0We were using a surrogate and we had to take out a loan for it. It didn\u2019t work. So we have a loan that we\u2019re paying and obviously nothing to show for it. So for me, that is a big motivator to get our debt paid off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. So are you thinking of after you pay off debt, potentially engaging with another surrogate?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:08]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And how much would that cost?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:13]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s probably going to cost at least $20,000, somewhere between 20 and $40,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. So understand, and that is just a really expensive, emotionally difficult process. I\u2019m sorry you had to go through what you\u2019ve already gone through. That\u2019s tough.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:35]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:35]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fertility challenges, IVF, surrogacy, these are real concerns for families and their finances. They are rarely talked about. We really need to shine a light on these important conversations, so I\u2019m very grateful to Ashley and Brandon for bringing this up. Now let\u2019s take a look at their numbers. Assets, $238,000; investments, 42,460; savings, just over a $1,000; debt, $261,214. Total net worth, $20,292.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:10]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0So I\u2019ve gotten a couple of promotions. So I started in 2018. The salary bump wasn\u2019t much when I actually switched jobs, but since then, through different promotions, I\u2019ve gone from $41,000 a year to 95.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Damn. All right. Take the win. That\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:35]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s $160,000 at age 30, basically. That\u2019s a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels good on paper.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Brandon, what do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:49]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Where\u2019s it all going?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back. After this short break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:57] Welcome back. Let\u2019s keep going<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, let\u2019s take a look. Your fixed costs, what\u2019s that number right there, Ashley?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:03]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a091%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s pretty high. In fact, that tells me right there, you\u2019re broke. And yet, you do have all these gadgets and fun stuff you\u2019re doing, which means that it\u2019s going to debt. You\u2019ve built a flywheel where you\u2019re spending more and you\u2019re just building your debt up. And at this rate, we can go into the numbers, but probably not be paid off for many, many years. Your mortgage is incredibly low, 1,100 bucks. Amazing. Fantastic. Car payments are 600 bucks a month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:41]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s the truck, and that\u2019s our gas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, not bad. What kind of truck?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:48]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0F-350.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, of course. You wouldn\u2019t need that to haul.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:53]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0At the time when we bought it, we had a camper.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And what happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:02]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0We needed a bigger truck than what I had or the camper.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:12]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0And then we sold the camper.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what do you do with the truck now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:16]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I use it for [Inaudible], the boat, or the garden boxes for delivery.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I ask you a question? When you used to have the camper? How often did you use it, like go camping or whatever?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Twice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Twice? Total? What the fuck? You bought an F-350 because of two times of camping? I know no truck guy has ever answered this question, but I have to ask. Did you ever consider renting a truck for the two times to use the camper?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:57]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Never considered it. How come?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:02]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I always wanted a truck, because I never had anything. And when I want something, I used to have it.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve heard me previously say that we can simultaneously acknowledge personal responsibility and the need for structural changes. Well, here we have both of them. Brandon grew up poor. That affects how you experience money, how you see money, how much you know about money. For example, I can promise you his family was not teaching him about a Roth IRA.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:36] We also see that he\u2019s made a series of bad choices. Who buys a Ford F-350 to go camping twice? And all of these things without actually understanding or even caring about the financial consequences? The truth is he hasn\u2019t really faced any financial consequences.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:55] Ashley absorbs them for him. And even on today\u2019s call, he\u2019s not really engaging with me. He\u2019s sitting back waiting for me to either fix this situation or to end this conversation, what I realized is I needed to recalibrate this relationship so he takes an active role in it, and I am not leading.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, if you could afford it, I say, God bless. Fantastic. Do it. Spend more. But you can\u2019t. Looking at it, it is so obvious. We haven\u2019t even gotten to the bottom of the CSP. It\u2019s so obvious. And forget about the numbers. Look at your wife. What does she look like right now, if you\u2019re looking at her?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Disappointed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:37]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Sad, frustrated.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s pretty serious. Do you see that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:45]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m here because I\u2019m trying to help. Again, you guys called me. I want to help. I have a lot of time for you both. I understand that the way you grew up was I didn\u2019t have a lot and so the minute you started earning money you wanted to spend it on things you love.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:59] I get that. It\u2019s a very simple story. A lot of people have gone through that story. The problem is you can\u2019t afford it. And you have a massive disconnection with your wife over money. Where do you want to go from here, Brandon?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:20]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Be more involved.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So I\u2019m going to finish the numbers and then I\u2019m coming back to you, Brandon, because you\u2019re going to tell me what kind of plan you want to make. All right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your debt payments are $3,111 per month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:40]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not minimum payments. That includes additional money that we\u2019re putting towards debt to get debt paid off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. How much extra are you putting?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:52]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0So that number to the right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Basically, let\u2019s just say 2,000 bucks a month, and you\u2019re paying approximately 3,000 a month. So you\u2019re paying an extra $1,000 a month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:01]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, I respect that. And that\u2019s really the source of a lot of tension. Ashley, you\u2019re saying I want to put this money so we can pay it off fast, and Brandon is saying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:12]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0He would like to maybe not put that whole amount.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re going to recalibrate this relationship. It\u2019s been me asking questions. Now it\u2019s going to be you telling me what you want to do. Go ahead, Brandon.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:26]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I have no idea.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what\u2019s the solution here? The solution is not just to be like, oh, I give up and let\u2019s just keep doing what we\u2019re doing. The path you\u2019re on is worse in the future.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:38]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I jump in on\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No, because Ashley, you could solve this problem. You could have solved it years ago. But the problem is, you have very murky lines between the two of you. If you just want to run shit at home, financially speaking, then run it. But you\u2019re doing the thing where you kind of run it, but then you feel bad, and you give Brandon all this money, and Brandon knows what to say to get you to be like, oh, he\u2019s done well. He deserves it. Nobody deserves anything with money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:08]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So Ashley, no, I don\u2019t want your answer because you could have run stuff a long time ago. If this is going to work with the two of you, Brandon has to rise up as a teammate. Otherwise, the two of you can do this separately. I\u2019ve worked with a lot of couples in situations like yours. I always ask them, do you want to make no changes, small changes, or really big changes? What do y\u2019all say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:41]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:45]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Big changes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Huh? What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:47]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Big changes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And Ashley?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:50]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Big changes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0By the way, Ashley, I love that you asked him first. That was great.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:56]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Sell the truck and get rid of the chiropractor.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. You want to see what happens if we do that? Let\u2019s try it. I like that. That\u2019s an idea. What number should I change?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:09]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Car payment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And right now it\u2019s 596. What should I make it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:15]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know what that would go down to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I need you to give me an approximate number. No one\u2019s going to do it for you. You got to come up with it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:27]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0$100.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. That took your number down. If you noticed, this used to be 91%, your fixed costs. Now it\u2019s 85%. That was a big deal. Let\u2019s do it again. What else you got?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:39]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0The chiropractor.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. You want to zero that out?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:45]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. You\u2019re sure about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:51]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That takes us down to 83%. All right. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:01]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to invite you, Ashley, to speak really honestly, maybe more honestly than you\u2019ve ever spoken before. Sometimes it\u2019s really helpful to have a third party. Is there something on your mind, Ashley, right now that you want to just have a conversation with your husband?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:28]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I want you to want to be involved. I don\u2019t need you to know everything. I want you to want to look into the future, and I don\u2019t just mean paying off our debt. I mean saving for things like house repairs, like vacations, like big purchases that you want, or that I want, or that we want for our family. I want you to want to be interested in your retirement<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:14] I don\u2019t know everything. I\u2019m not going to pretend like I do. I\u2019m learning it right along with you, but I\u2019m learning it alone, and I don\u2019t want to learn it alone. I want to learn those things together. I don\u2019t want you to rely on me to make all the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:37] I don\u2019t expect you to ever earn a certain amount, but I don\u2019t want you to go into any job situation thinking like, oh, actually, we\u2019ll just pick up the slack. It\u2019s fine because Ashley makes enough money. I\u2019ll just take a pay cut because Ashley makes enough. I want you to have that ambition of like, I want to do this for my family.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:16]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can go through life sitting back like this. And I get the sense that\u2019s what you wanted to happen today. Oh, Ramit Sethi\u2019s coming here. Ramit will fix it. Fix me. And then you just sit back and wait. This is your life. This is not just your Rich Life. This is your debt. You\u2019re talking about family planning. Get up. Lean forward, take initiative. Do you guys really want to do this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:56]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What do you want to do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:01]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you want to?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:04]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I want to be in this together and be able to go through all this and figure out the game plan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me what you want to do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:17]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know, but truck is the only thing that has a payment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You could still have an asset even if it doesn\u2019t have a payment. Truck still has payments. What else? What else do you own?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:29]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0House.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Snowmobile, four-wheeler.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:37]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Pit bike.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:40]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Car.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much would the snowmobile sell for?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:48]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0If I\u2019m lucky, 1,500.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, and the four-wheeler?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:51]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably the same.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a01,500. And the boat?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:56]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably around the same.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a01,500. And the pit bike?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:02]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0600 bucks maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. That\u2019s 5,100 right there for all that stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:16]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a decent amount of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What about that truck?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:23]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe eight grand.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much do you owe on that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:28]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ashley?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:31]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Six?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a013,100, the truck plus the snowmobile, the four-wheeler, the boat, and the pit bike.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:42]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s quite a bit of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. You look torn.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:48]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:51]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Because that\u2019s stuff other than the truck is paid for and enjoyment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This is where you have to decide on what is the most important thing to you right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:10]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0So last year, you sold garden boxes and you didn\u2019t know if you wanted to do it this year. And I would be okay if you wanted to wait to sell these extra toys if you wanted to commit to doing something else on the side to make some extra money instead if the truck still went.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you say that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:45]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want to just out you, but just emotional things, and I don\u2019t want to see all of the things that he takes enjoyment out of be taken away from him and see him slip back into those darker places.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brandon, what do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:09]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Just sell it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You feel comfortable? I don\u2019t want you to feel pressured. It\u2019s not my money. It\u2019s your money. It\u2019s your stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:18]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ashley, I know you want to, but Brandon, I\u2019m not getting that from you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:24]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:25]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I do want to do that. It\u2019s just been a different perspective on life after losing my brother. I could be gone tomorrow, so that\u2019s why I have the things I have to enjoy life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I can understand that. I can\u2019t understand the kind of pain you went through. I never lost my brother, but I can understand how it changes everything for you.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0None of us listening can understand what it\u2019s like to lose a brother. That shatters any reality you had before. It\u2019s no surprise to hear Brandon admit that he wants to live more for now than for tomorrow because he doesn\u2019t know what\u2019s going to happen tomorrow. I\u2019m sorry that Brandon had to go through this, and if you have experienced any kind of loss in your life, I would highly encourage you to speak to a therapist.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It makes perfect sense. I see why you have the things you do. If that is what you want to do, then maybe that is your journey. But that\u2019s not what Ashley wants. And the two of you are married and you\u2019re talking about kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:35]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we could have so much more. I know you see what we have right now and you see these things, but I think if we buckle down and got this taken care of\u2013 we don\u2019t make a bad income, and if we got our debt taken care of, we could have so much more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ll show you. I\u2019ll show you. I totally agree, Ashley. I think you don\u2019t actually, Brandon, understand the vision of how awesome of a life you could be living.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:04]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:04]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s say we get rid of these debt payments. All right. Pay these freaking things off. Your fixed costs just dropped to 42%. That\u2019s amazing. That means, well, first of all, you can start investing much more aggressively. Oh my god, look at that. You could be investing 24000, $25,000 a year while still having more money to spend on the things you love. More than you have right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:39] This debt is killing you. That\u2019s why it\u2019s driving me insane when we\u2019re sitting here agonizing over simple decisions. Because I see what\u2019s possible for you. More than even you see it. $2,000 a month, just to give you a sense of how much that turns into. I know this isn\u2019t even going to seem real, but I\u2019m just going to show you anyway.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:02]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s important because I don\u2019t think he realizes either what that would turn into investing it because I would love to retire early and be able to experience life later together too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. So if we just take some basic numbers here, you have $43,000 invested. Let\u2019s say you put in 24,000 a year, which is very realistic after you pay off your debt, extremely realistic. You could actually put in more than that. Right there, that\u2019s worth $4 million by the time you\u2019re 65. That\u2019s a lot of freaking money. Let\u2019s make it 30. Let\u2019s say it takes you a few years to pay off your debt. You\u2019re still talking about 2.7 to $3 million. Now, Brandon, when I say that number, what goes through your head?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:53]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:59]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0We could be living life a lot different.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:03]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Traveling. I know Ashley really wants to do a lot more traveling. And we could take a lot more trips and go on fishing or snowmobile trips or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Bingo. Now you\u2019re getting it. I feel like something just happened. Am I the only one feeling this energy right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:28]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like his whole face changed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the fuck is going on right now, Brandon? Tell me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:32]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0I saw the numbers and what they could be.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then what happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:38]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0That changed how I feel on getting this debt paid off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me now. What do you want to do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:45]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Sell it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sell what? Tell me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:48]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Right now, it\u2019s just you have this huge cloud over you, and everything you do is about the debt. Can we eat this thing at the grocery store? What about our debt? Let\u2019s dream. We can\u2019t because we have debt. It\u2019s all debt all day. And yet, neither of you wants to do the things that are going to get you out of debt. I can\u2019t do it for you, but you can.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:17]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. I think we were resistant or in denial.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you in denial right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:26]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I\u2019m fully aware that we have screwed up and screwed up and screwed up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brandon, how about you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:34]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I definitely see it.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:37] I was honestly shocked at how fast things changed in the last few minutes of this conversation. If they\u2019re excited, I\u2019m excited. Because sometimes you just need to see that it\u2019s possible to live a rich life to shake you out of being stuck. Let\u2019s listen to their follow-ups now starting with Ashley.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:55]\u00a0<strong>Ashley:<\/strong>\u00a0I was really surprised with how our conversation with Ramit went. I didn\u2019t think it was going to be so deep and so much about our relationship and our communication, and so that\u2019s the thing we\u2019re tackling first.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:08] We\u2019ve decided we\u2019re going to sign up for a couples counseling, and I think that\u2019s going to be so great, not just with financial communication, but just our communication in general. My greatest takeaway was Ramit said, this is going to be uncomfortable. And even though it was my idea to attack our debt, I also didn\u2019t want to be uncomfortable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:31] And there were certain things that I didn\u2019t think to get rid of, or I didn\u2019t want to get rid of, certain subscriptions or things like that. And I wasn\u2019t willing to be uncomfortable. And it really hit me that I need to be. It\u2019s time to be uncomfortable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:48] We\u2019ve canceled the subscriptions. We\u2019re going to sell the toys. We\u2019re going to sell the truck. We\u2019re going to focus on our communication, getting our debt paid off, putting our extra income towards debt, and then 25% towards savings to build that up and really just build a strong foundation of our relationship, our communication, and then getting this dang debt tackled, paid off. And then after that, we\u2019re going to be comfortable and really just have a better relationship all around.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Extremely powerful. What a moment when she acknowledges that change is going to be uncomfortable, and she realizes that she spent years trying to avoid being uncomfortable. I am so happy hearing Ashley\u2019s update. And now let\u2019s listen to Brandon\u2019s follow up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:35]\u00a0<strong>Brandon:<\/strong>\u00a0After our meet with Ramit, I realized that there is a lot about our financials that I didn\u2019t know and that I need to know about. We have decided to sell off some things through. I\u2019ll pay for the debt, and we are canceling some subscriptions. And I have agreed to go to couples counseling with Ashley.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m hoping that they both make a change and they both do it as a team. Ashley has been the leader for so long that she truly needs a teammate. Now, Brandon can acknowledge where he came from, what has happened in his life, and he can also choose to create a new chapter of his life together with Ashley. I wish them both the very best. Thank you very much for watching and for listening.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:30] I\u2019ve gotten some feedback recently that I seem to only talk to couples who make a ton of money and struggle spending it. I want to tell you that I am listening to your feedback. I hear your comments. I see them, and I appreciate every single one of you who listens and watches the podcast.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:47] In terms of our couples, I\u2019m really proud of the diversity on this podcast. We go out of our way to find couples with different incomes, ethnicities, sexual orientations, geographies, ages, and my goal is to be as inclusive as possible, to show you every single different type of couple out there when it comes to money and relationships.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:08] Because I want you to be able to take the lessons that they share and apply it to your life. As a result, my team and I are always looking for diverse couples to apply for this show. If you make less than six figures, if you have a different situation that hasn\u2019t been addressed on this podcast, I want to hear from you. Please go to iwt.com\/apply and share your situation with us. Remember that my team and I would love to share your story with everyone who listens and watches this podcast. Thanks again for watching, and thanks for your feedback.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Ashley is 29, Brandon is 30. They have been married for six years and have accumulated $261,000 in debt. Despite taking out a surrogate loan, they are still unable to have a baby. Ashley is desperate for a partner, but Brandon struggles to engage\u2014at home, and in this conversation. This episode is brought to you [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118889","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118889","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118889"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118889\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118889"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118889"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}