{"id":118894,"date":"2024-06-25T16:13:36","date_gmt":"2024-06-25T20:13:36","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118894"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:27:55","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:27:55","slug":"162-paul-maddie","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/162-paul-maddie\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 162. \u201cWe panic over money\u2014but spend $84K\/year on travel and shopping\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe panic over money but spend $84K on travel &amp; shopping\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/z4v-VXAj_8U\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/70cMQy5DxbYeCcn3O1NfEM?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Paul, 33, and Maddie, 29, flew to New York City from London for a live-recorded episode\u2014providing a valuable first clue to their spending habits. She is a high earner, but worries about lifestyle creep. He recently left his job, and they\u2019re treading water on one income.<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Fabric by Gerber Life | Protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. Apply today in just 10 minutes at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions \u2013 and manage your expenses the easy way \u2013 by going to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I have a constant fear of getting laid off. It\u2019s like a recurring nightmare because I just feel so much pressure that I am the only one bringing in income. I deal with it by putting a lot of pressure on Paul to figure out his side of the equation. And it comes out in probably not the best way. I have a very urgency stress around it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:23]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I actually try to avoid having this conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:28]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0That specific subject is just one that is very touchy. Maddie does understand all of these concepts, but there\u2019s something just deep down, innate inside that scared that it will all disappear.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You think it\u2019s possible to feel good about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:44]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Not from my experience.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:46]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re also planning a wedding.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meet Paul and Maddie. Paul\u2019s 33. Maddie\u2019s 29. They recently got engaged, and they combine their finances. Unfortunately, he left his job, and Maddie now panics about their finances. As you listen to today\u2019s conversation, you\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0hear a lot of expectations. What are our friends doing? What does our family think?\u00a0I want you to listen closely and remember that we are all affected by social expectations and peer pressure. Let\u2019s start at the engagement party that they were recently planning.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:23]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0So I love planning parties, and I feel like I\u2019d already planned everything, and I feel like you came to me and you\u2019re like, should we have a conversation about whether or not this is a good decision given that I am just about to stop working and we\u2019re going to be on one income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:42]\u00a0And then that made me panic. Everything was already planned, and I\u2019d already told everyone about it, and I didn\u2019t want to backtrack. But I think it ended with us both feeling not great and me thinking, okay, well, we\u2019re still going to do it because I really want to, and it\u2019s important to me, but it\u2019s going to be stressful as we do it because this is looming over us as it maybe not be a good decision.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Isn\u2019t that the worst of all [Inaudible]?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:13]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re going to do this. We\u2019re not even sure if we should do it, and we\u2019re going to feel bad the entire time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:17]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, exactly. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that normal for your decisions?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:20]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0100%. I feel like I constantly live between two feelings, which is like, I\u2019m going to live a bougie great life. I work hard. I\u2019ve made great money. I can do what I want, and we can travel a ton and have a great wedding, and all these things. And then the other side, constantly feeling stressed and guilty about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:43]\u00a0So in one sense I feel like my spending is out of control and I can\u2019t stop it. The other side is that we have a lot of money and we can do it. But that side is, I don\u2019t know, constantly flip flops.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Paul, do you feel the same way?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:02]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0For the most part, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You oscillate between, oh my God, we\u2019re going to run out of money. We can\u2019t do this. We\u2019re overspending. Versus, we actually make a lot of money. We\u2019re good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:13]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I try to calm her down when she gets in the panic spirals, but honestly, it makes me hesitate a bit. It makes me think maybe she\u2019s right. Maybe we shouldn\u2019t be doing this. Is this reckless? So I probably have a bit less of the instinct to panic about we\u2019re going to run out of money. But some changes in my job have caused me to start being a bit more concerned about things like this for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:42]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I have more of a scarcity mindset, which is it feels like anything can be taken away from us at any point and we need to be almost hoarding money. And I think the best example of that is like, I believe that our money is our checking account. I don\u2019t feel comfortable tapping into anything outside of my checking account.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:05]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I do understand it. And I know all about compound interest and investing over time, but for some reason, there\u2019s a mental gap between what I understand and how I emotionally feel.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You don\u2019t feel it here intellectually. Do you look at the numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:21]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I fully understand numbers. I\u2019m very analytical. I grasp all the concepts, but emotionally I am freaked out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Isn\u2019t that interesting?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:31]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you make of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:34]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Some of generational childhood trauma seeping into a fear of losing everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:42]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it definitely hits home. I think that\u2019s the huge part of how we ended up on this podcast, was Maddie does understand all of these concepts, but there\u2019s something just deep down, innate inside that is scared that it will all disappear.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And do you feel the same way scarcity wise?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:01]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I don\u2019t. I don\u2019t. I\u2019d say I actually feel pretty optimistic about the future, and when I think about money, I think of what it can do for us down the line. I don\u2019t want to make it all about Maddie. I think my work situation over the last year or two has added a lot of stress to the situation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s that work situation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:21]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0So basically, I was working at a company, and I was launching a new business unit for them, and it went pretty well for the first year or so. And then the market downturn happened, and we basically just couldn\u2019t get the business to work out. And it was incredibly stressful. It took such a toll on me. And I ended up leaving the company. And so now I\u2019ve been off work for a month and a half now. So we\u2019ve transitioned into one income, and I think that definitely puts a bit of a burden on Maddie emotionally.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because of the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:01]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I have a constant fear of getting laid off, whether that\u2019s grounded in reality or not. And right now it\u2019s definitely not grounded in reality, but it\u2019s a recurring nightmare because I just feel so much pressure that I am the only one bringing in income. And I think also helpful context is Paul used to be a corporate lawyer, so we used to be in this place of immense stability, and he really didn\u2019t like being a lawyer for obvious reasons.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, just tell everyone what those obvious reasons are. Let\u2019s go ahead and tell everyone about the legal field. Paul?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:38]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, it\u2019s about as exciting as accounting, and you have to work 100 hours a week.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like lawyers. Every time I talk to a corporate attorney, I\u2019m always like, you are very interesting. They\u2019re like Lego Masters or they do something really cool on the side, but of course that\u2019s all I see. I don\u2019t realize they\u2019re billing 15 hours a day and reading briefs all day. All right, you left the legal world. Go on, Maddie.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:02]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0And wanted to do something more entrepreneurial. It coincided when we moved cities, so we didn\u2019t have as much of a network. He ended up joining a scale up, and at the time we were really excited. We were running the numbers around the equity and all of that stuff, and you usually take a salary cut.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:19]\u00a0So we felt good about that trade off at that time, but that was a long time ago. That was like 2019, 2020. The world looked very different, and I think the realization that equity was worth nothing, and Paul feeling not fulfilled in that role after a couple of years and it being really stressful and him having to leave. I think it just took us from a place of immense stability to immense instability.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I got you. Paul, you mentioned that your not working right now has caused a lot of stress for Maddie. What about for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:56]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0If anything, the last year on the job was even more stressful and that took a huge toll on me because I think I have my identity tied up a lot in being successful at work. And when I couldn\u2019t get that business to work, it took a huge toll on my mental health and definitely took a toll on our relationship as well. And So if anything, when I did end up leaving the company, it was almost a relief, and I started to feel better.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:25]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I definitely struggled with it a lot. When things aren\u2019t going well for me somewhere, I\u2019m very inclined to, okay, well I\u2019m just going to jump ship and do something different. And I felt like Paul was really unhappy for a really long time, and it frustrated me that he didn\u2019t take action to make a move. It\u2019s not like he was the founder of this business. He wasn\u2019t that tied to it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:52]\u00a0So I think by the time this was all happening, I already felt a lot of frustration towards him because I felt as if it was like a little too late. I was like, you weren\u2019t happy a year ago. Why didn\u2019t we look into making a move a year ago? And now the market is really horrible, and it\u2019s a different climate, and now is when you want to leave, and now we\u2019re going to be on one income because of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Keep going. Finish this sentence for me. We\u2019re going to be on win income, therefore?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:18]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Therefore, I\u2019m going to feel a ton of financial pressure, and we won\u2019t necessarily be able to live within our means. We will have to dip into our savings.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:34]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I actually try to avoid having this conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:39]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Because that specific subject is just one that is very touchy. The idea of at the end of the month expenses exceeding income and dipping into a savings pod or investment portfolio, that really kills me. I think we should be making progress, and we were making such good progress, and if I could have just made that job opportunity work, then we would be in this great position of just growing our money for the future.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You mentioned you were really stressed when you were at work. How are you feeling now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:16]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It changes by the week is probably the honest answer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. From what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:21]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0From a sense of everything\u2019s going to be okay. This is a temporary moment of being on one income. We can get being on one income. It\u2019s totally fine. Maddie makes great money. This will be resolved. Six months from now, this will all be in the rear-view mirror. But then sometimes I get caught in the negative spiral too of thinking, well, what if this does go for six months or\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:47]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Longer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:48]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Or longer. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What if it does?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:51]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Then we basically have to make like lifestyle changes. We should probably be reducing our expenses, making sure that we fit within Maddie\u2019s income.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:04]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re also planning a wedding.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:08]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0September, 2025.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re planning the wedding, but you have this financial instability.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:14]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you deal with that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:16]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I deal with it by putting a lot of pressure on Paul to figure out his side of the equation. And it comes out in probably not the best way. I micromanage him and put a lot of pressure on him to just get any job. Whereas his philosophy is, I should take the time and find a job that will be really fulfilling.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:41]\u00a0And especially having had two different career paths that he didn\u2019t necessarily love for various different reasons, I think it\u2019s really important for him to find something that will put him on a path for a career. He\u2019s so incredibly intelligent.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, are you making his case, or are you making your case?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:02]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0So I\u2019m making my rational case, and then I\u2019ll\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then you\u2019ll tell me what you actually feel.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:06]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So this is my rational case is that\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s important for him to find the thing he loves. He already went from one career to another. It didn\u2019t quite work. So intellectually, he needs to what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:17]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Find the best career option for him for the long term.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Even if it takes time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:21]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Even if it time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:23]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0However. So my actual day-to-day feelings are just get any job tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Any job?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:31]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Not any job, but something will come up on LinkedIn, and I\u2019ll be like, apply for this. He will be like, no, why would I apply for it? I\u2019m like, who cares? Just apply. Whatever. Just take the job. And if you don\u2019t like it, quit three months later. I have a very urgency, stress around it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I see. You mentioned you micromanage him. What do you mean by that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:53]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. She likes to be very involved in the job hunt process. She likes to make sure that I\u2019m applying to companies every day that I\u2019m consistently scouring LinkedIn. My list of contacts that I\u2019m networking with is always being updated and meeting new people all the time. You have to play a long game to find the right opportunity, and these things take time, and you should be taking steps along the way consistently. But I\u2019ll get there eventually. Maddie just likes to see a bit more day-to-day progress of\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you monitor his LinkedIn and his contacts and stuff like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:33]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0We work from home together a lot, so I\u2019ll come over and I\u2019ll be like, did you respond to this person? Have you emailed this person yet? Did this person reply to you? I feel more on top of it than he does, and I feel like I need to be constantly following up. If someone emails him, he might respond a day or two later, and that just does not fly with me in this recruiting process.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:57]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I\u2019m worried he\u2019s going to miss out on an opportunity, and it\u2019s going to take us longer find something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Got it. So you\u2019re checking in with him daily.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:06]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe more than daily, multiple times a day.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:10]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:10]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yes. Oh yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you do this? What about that, etc.? How do you even know what LinkedIn people he\u2019s talking to?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:18]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I ask him, and he\u2019ll tell me. Sometimes I\u2019ll see it pop up on his phone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:25]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Once he tells me something, it goes in my mental filing cabinet. So then I\u2019m like, okay. I have little mental reminders to be like, check in on this. Make sure Paul did that. Make sure Paul responded to this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And just out of curiosity, what do you get out of this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:42]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess it feels like I have some sense of control over something that feels very out of my control.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. How do you feel when you get the questions from her about your LinkedIn check-ins and things like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:58]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I immediately feel my chest tighten up, the feeling of stress. My heart rate skips a beat of, oh, I need a good update for Maddie right now. I need to be able to show her I made progress.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that feel like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:16]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a very tough thing to accomplish.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. Does it remind you at all of any other career situation where you felt like you had to give a positive update regularly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:28]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0In my last job, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did that end up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:33]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0That ended up with me in the worst mental state I\u2019ve ever been in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. And what if this just went on for, let\u2019s say six months, nine months, over a year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:43]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think to answer your question, at some point, a deadline would have to come in. Personally, I\u2019m avoiding the step of running the numbers fully on how many months we can take before I have to take a more drastic step.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Have you run those numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:03]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But you feel\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:05]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like the deadline is tomorrow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:11]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve done a lot of couples therapy, and we\u2019re super aligned, and we\u2019re very open, and we\u2019re great communicators. I feel like this is the main blocker in us being super happy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This is the main blocker. This being what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:26]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Our financial security. I won\u2019t even say stability because I know that it\u2019s not necessarily that, but it\u2019s feeling financially secure and feeling excited for our future together financially and also our career trajectories and just feeling confidence that everything\u2019s going to work out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you think that if he had a job tomorrow that you would feel financially secure?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:52]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to say yes, but I know the answer\u2019s probably not yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When he had a job and he was making good money, did you feel financially secure?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:02]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No. No is short answer<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve heard me talk about gender dynamics on this program. Studies show that women do more household labor even if they work the same number of hours as men. But notice what\u2019s happening here. Maddie is taking on the labor of checking on Paul\u2019s job search. She\u2019s micromanaging his process.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:27]\u00a0\u00a0Now, this is an example of Maddie unnecessarily taking on labor when she doesn\u2019t need to. Her partner\u2019s not asking her to do that, and I\u2019m highlighting this because it\u2019s happening early on, meaning you can see easily where this leads. Just as in other couples, we have somebody who may be a little bit more conversant with numbers. She takes on the family finances. She does the day-to-day finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:52]\u00a0It would be very, very predictable for her to take on more and more of Paul\u2019s responsibilities.\u00a0He tries, but it\u2019s not quite her way, or she\u2019s a little better. He feels disempowered. He basically gives up on the finances. And fast forward five, 10, 15 years, he goes, oh, she\u2019s better at it. And she feels incredibly overwhelmed and resentful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:14]\u00a0Do you see how this pattern is starting right here? I don\u2019t want that. Now, I\u2019m not blaming Paul. I\u2019m not blaming Maddie. What I am saying is you have to be very, very careful about taking on labor from your partner, very careful, because it sets a precedent, and it has bigger ramifications than most of us think about.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:36]\u00a0\u00a0Hold that thought. We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:38]\u00a0\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:40]\u00a0Part of being an effective partner with money is having a clear joint vision, and if something unexpected happens, like leaving a job that\u2019s not working out, talking about it and recalibrating that vision. Maddie is nervous about money.\u00a0Fine. But we need to run some numbers. We need to get clear what Paul needs to do. Paul left his job. It\u2019s his responsibility, not Maddie\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You like being stressed?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:07]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe, yeah. Maybe it\u2019s my natural state. I think I feel comfortable being stressed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:15]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a way for me to process things and channel my emotions in a way. And it feels more comfortable than being calm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh really?\u00a0Let me just repeat that back to you. Being stressed out feels more comfortable than being calm. What do you make of that? It\u2019s true, right? For you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:41]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you think that there are any examples where you\u2019ve spent a good amount of money and you felt good about it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:48]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How about you, Paul?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:55]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I honestly don\u2019t think so.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is there any part of your life where you\u2019ll do something and you\u2019ll be stressed about it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:03]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Most of my spending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Engagement, travel, all that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:13]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Clothing, for sure. I love shopping, but every time I purchase something, I go through an internal battle with pressing this Submit button online shopping, and then I\u2019ll go through periods where I\u2019ll completely ban myself from online shopping and then periods of buying way too much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. Have you realized that relationship with money is probably not a healthy one?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:41]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, definitely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:43]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0When we first started dating, I actually didn\u2019t worry about money at all, but I was also quite young, and I had a very laissez-faire feeling towards money and was pretty frivolous and thought money was always going to be there. And I had a good job out of university, and I was like, I\u2019m just going to keep doing well, and things are going to be great. And he was the first one to open my eyes to being financially responsible and maybe some of the decisions I was making wasn\u2019t the most financially responsible.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:14]\u00a0And I almost went on a full pendulum swing to the other way. And this resonates for me because one of my parents is really stressed about money and the other one is very frivolous with money. So I was more in line with one parent and then it completely swung, and now I see myself turning into the other parent and being stressed to order an extra appetizer because it\u2019s going to be another $12 or something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that true? You are stressed?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:39]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Whenever we order, I\u2019m like, oh, we shouldn\u2019t get that. It\u2019s an extra $20.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s rewind back to you being young. Are you the only child, or do you have siblings?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:49]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0An older sister.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sister. Okay, great. So you\u2019re young. You\u2019re 5, 6, 7, 8 years old. What do you remember about money in your household?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:59]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0So one of my parents was extremely stressed about money 24\/7.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:06]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0My dad. And my other parent was very lax about money, but it was always a secret. So it was like, we\u2019re going to go shopping, but when we come back to the house, take your shopping bags and run up and hide them in your bedroom.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That was mom?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:21]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0That was mom. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Okay. What do you make of that now as an adult?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:28]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mixed messages for sure. One is that we don\u2019t have any money, and we need to be really frugal, and money is a scarce resource, and one is we actually do have money, but we\u2019re not going to talk about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re not going to talk it, or we can talk about it, you, me, and your sister, but who are we not going to tell about it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:54]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Dad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Why not tell dad?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:58]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0He would get unhappy, upset if we spent a lot of money. He comes from a Holocaust family. His mom was part of the Holocaust, and so he grew up, I think, with a lot of that trauma still very real.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you think that that affected his relationship with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:24]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely a scarcity mindset of feeling that anything could be taken away at any point.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Makes sense. Keep going. So as a result, what did he do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:36]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Tried to keep all of his resources very, very close.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did he do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:40]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0By restricting spending and obsessing over money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did he obsess?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:47]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0His mood fluctuates with the stock market.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:50]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can tell.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:51]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What would he say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:53]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0You can just tell when the man\u2019s grumpy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:58]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0And he had a successful career in finance. We went to private school. We had a really great life. We had all of the things that we needed. We lived in a really big house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then as you got older, I\u2019m assuming he paid for college?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:14]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Even beyond college, like cars and stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:17]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Beyond college, I\u2019ve been relatively financially independent, but up until college, I paid for everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:24]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely didn\u2019t feel poor or even middle class by any means. We felt upper middle class, but the messaging we got was that we were not comfortable financially. When we were eating out, he wouldn\u2019t order a meal, and he would pick off our plates to save money, or I feel like we were always stressed about money because we didn\u2019t want to make him stressed out about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Your mom and dad are still married?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:52]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And your mom still shopping and not telling dad?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:57]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Still. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:01]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We\u2019re going to have to edit this out of the podcast so she doesn\u2019t get found out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dad goes into the closet, finds out there\u2019s a secret Batman closet, and there\u2019s all these beautiful bags. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maddie didn\u2019t catch it, but I bet you did. She feels stressed at the concept of ordering another appetizer just like her dad did. I have a lot of empathy for couples who come on this podcast. Whenever people behave in peculiar ways with money, there\u2019s almost always a reason for it. And here we can see how much of her dad\u2019s financial anxiety has influenced her, not to mention the mixed messages that she got from her mom buying and hiding purchases.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think you mentioned that, my dad is very cheap, even though he lives in a million-dollar house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:50]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that true?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:54]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Multimillion.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Thank you. Being honest. I love it. Okay, great. So he\u2019s cheap. And how could I, an outside observer tell that he\u2019s cheap if I spend two days with him?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:06]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0The clothing for sure. He wears Crocs and a ripped shirt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Say no more. Once you said Crocs, I don\u2019t need any more details beyond a cheap person wearing Crocs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:19]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s tough. How\u2019s it feel to have a dad that wears Crocs?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:23]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Apparently, they\u2019re stylish again, which is\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fuck\u00a0that. They\u2019re not. All right. So does he eat out?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:33]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Rarely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And if you went to eat out with him, what would he get? He\u2019d pick off your plate?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:37]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Yeah, no, not quite. But he would get nothing extravagant.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What does he do to enjoy his money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:45]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Nothing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. And when you ask him about that, you are like, dad, what are you going to do? You have all this money. What would he say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:53]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0We don\u2019t have all this money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:54]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does he deny it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:56]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s the thing. There\u2019s like a black hole. We don\u2019t understand what the reality is or if it\u2019s all in his head.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think will happen with your parents financially speaking as they get older, five, 10, 20 years from now? Are they going to spend their money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:16]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No. They should. Me and my sister would love for them to enjoy their money in retirement, but I think there\u2019s too much of a mental block for them to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You ever tell them, hey, you should take a trip. Come visit us in London.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:32]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah. All the time. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do they say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:33]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0They will do it, but there will be stress on one side, my mom is fine, and she\u2019s stressed about the fact that my dad is stressed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So your dad is stressed and then she inherits that stress. She absorbs the stress. Does she enjoy it, being stressed?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:51]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, you know your mom best. Does she enjoy absorbing the stress from your dad?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:58]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Do you think Paul enjoys absorbing the stress from you<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:03]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And you\u2019re like, dad, why don\u2019t you just stop? You tell him that, and then what does he say? He\u2019s like, stop what? This is me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:13]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, there\u2019s nothing to stop.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This is who I am.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:17]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay Can I ask you a question? Do you understand if you have enough money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:24]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:26]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No idea.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You don\u2019t know if your dad has enough money. You don\u2019t know if you have enough money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:30]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, absolutely no idea.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In a way it feels quite comfortable, right? It\u2019s the same way you grew up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:36]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You ever think of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:38]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You think it\u2019s possible to feel good about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:47]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Not from my experience.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The most important part of that entire deep dive on Maddie\u2019s relationship with her dad and his money psychology was her admitting that her dad wears Crocs. I\u2019m sorry, Maddie. But also, you can see how easily our money identity gets transmitted to the people around us, not just children, which is obvious, but from Maddie\u2019s dad\u00a0to her mom, and now from Maddie to her fiance.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:16]\u00a0Now listen, you can play Whack-a-Mole your entire life, fighting about your KFC order, and Starbucks, and Target, or you can get to the root cause and build a healthy relationship with money. That starts with yourself and then with your partner. That\u2019s what I get to do on this podcast.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:34]\u00a0We\u2019ll open up the conscious spending plan right after this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:38]\u00a0Now let\u2019s get to their numbers. Keep in mind that Maddie just said it\u2019s not possible to feel good about money.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:45]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so assets, 0; investments, 627,000; savings 27,000; debt, 5,000, and total net worth 649,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:04]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like it\u2019s incredible. I feel like it\u2019s way more money than I would\u2019ve ever thought I would have at this point in my life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How old are you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:10]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m 33.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a033. And?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:12]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a029.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a029. All right. What do you think about the numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:15]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s okay. All right. Is there a number that would be great?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:22]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe double.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And when you look at this net worth number $649,000, what does it mean to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:31]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0It means that we still have to be quite thoughtful and conscious about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Just if we fast forward, and let\u2019s say this was 1 million, 2 million, 5 million, would you still need to be conscious and thoughtful about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:47]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0It depends. I think I will fall victim to lifestyle creep. And if we had that money, I would probably want to buy a house and nicer things. And I think I would always feel a little bit stressed and a little bit like there\u2019s something else to reach for.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Lifestyle creep, you used that phrase. What is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:14]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0So when we first moved abroad, we were making much less money, and I believe I felt the exact same level of stress about money as I did today when we\u2019re making a lot more. But I spend a lot more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. And the lifestyle creep part of that is what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:35]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I shop more now and we live in a nicer flat, and we do a bit more trips. And when we would go away, we stay in a four-star hotel instead of a three-star hotel, and all of the things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why is it called creep? Why not conscious spending? You earn more, so we spend more thoughtfully.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:54]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, could be.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:56]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I spend a lot more than I used to spend.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:59]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Am I guilty of lifestyle creep?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:03]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the difference?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:08]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. Maybe there isn\u2019t one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But it always raised the question for me. Okay, so if I add 50% to my income, or double my income, or triple my income, am I still supposed to be eating the exact same dishes I used to eat, traveling the exact same places, wearing the exact same shirts?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:29]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When do I get to actually use my money? So my philosophy is if you earn more, you should spend more, but you should do it thoughtfully and carefully.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:39]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I think the difference is significant for sure. I think to be conscious spending, if we got aligned on doing exercises like this and I think committing to that guilt-free spending number that we feel comfortable with would be super helpful for us because then we could just go forward each month knowing that X thousand dollars is allocated to that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Okay, cool. Let\u2019s look at your income. Maddie, what is your combined gross monthly income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:12]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Around 20k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, you make 19,583 a month. That\u2019s from your income alone. Right now you\u2019re looking for a job. So your salary alone brings in close to a quarter million dollars, $235,000 or so into your household per year. How do you feel about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:33]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Pretty good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I agree. It\u2019s great. Right now, Paul, you\u2019re making zero. You\u2019re on the job search. When you find your next job, how much do you expect to make, ballpark?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:48]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Ballpark, 150 to 200. So maybe 350 to four.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, 350 to 400,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:56]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you both feel about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:58]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0That would be great.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:59]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I would feel incredible if we had that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Let\u2019s take a look at your fixed costs. Your fixed costs are at 63%. All right. You live in London. It\u2019s a very high-cost of-living city. Your rent is 18 or 19% of gross income. Again, this is one income. Okay. Looking at your spending, honestly, I don\u2019t have much to say about this at all. You have a car payment. You have no debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:29]\u00a0Your groceries are $850 a month. You have 300 bucks a month of subscriptions. Okay. Maybe you could cut that if you needed to a bit. And your therapy, you have that listed here. That\u2019s great. And you added the miscellaneous 15% for things you don\u2019t even account for, which is smart. And you are at 63%, fine. Investments are at 9%. That\u2019s $1,000 a month. What is this, Maddie?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:57]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Part of it\u2019s pension, and then I also put some into the market, although I\u2019ve stopped that while we\u2019re on one income, so usually that would be closer to 2,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ah, okay. You stopped while you\u2019re on one income. And what do you do with the money that you redirected?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:13]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah. Well, you\u2019ll get to the bottom, then you\u2019ll see where that money\u2019s going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s keep going. Savings are at zero. Let\u2019s just scroll up. You have $27,000 in savings, so three to four months of savings, basically four months of savings. Right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:33]\u00a0<strong>Interview:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you feel about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:36]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel pretty good about that, but also because a lot of our money is invested in tax-free accounts, so I feel like that is savings as well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. And then let\u2019s go down to guilt-free spending. Whoa. What is this? Can somebody explain this? It\u2019s 62%, which is $7,000 a month. What\u2019s going on here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:04]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0The last three months have been incredibly expensive for us. We got engaged in January, so we\u2019ve had a bunch of one-off expensive costs like ring and a trip to celebrate or engagement party. And then we also just have a lot of friends\u2019 weddings this year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:21]\u00a0So travel wise, it\u2019s been a very, very expensive start to the year. So I don\u2019t think that\u2019s fully representative of what it would normally be, but we do spend quite a lot of money on travel. Living abroad, we travel quite a lot, and that adds up for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the hell? This was all sounding great. Why are you so worried? And then I get to the bottom. Oh, now I understand. They\u2019re spending 62% or $7,000 a month on guilt-free spending. I need to dig into this.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If this is true, this is $84,000 a year in guilt-free spending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:01]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0If that pace continued, yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. The numbers are the numbers. I\u2019m not here to judge where your money\u2019s going. I just want to get an inventory of what\u2019s going on. Would you say that this is accurate?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:14]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:15]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If that\u2019s the case, you are spending more than you make every month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:21]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that a cause of stress to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:25]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:26]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Both of you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:27]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Well, different degrees of stress. I think it causes Maddie more stress.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:35]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0In fact, I\u2019ve been running the numbers on this to hopefully get a bit more comfort and to bring the pressure gauge down above the situation. And even with our aggressive spending to start the year and being on only one income, our savings and investments have still grown each month, despite month to month being slightly in the red.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:00]\u00a0So to be honest, when we talk about this concept, I think we both still feel really icky about being in the red, and especially probably Maddie, it doesn\u2019t make us feel as relaxed as it probably should.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:19]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0For example, we\u2019re planning a wedding, so I anticipate for the next year or so we\u2019re going to be in the red. Even if we did get a second income, there will be many months that we\u2019re in the red on wedding costs. I think we feel very uncomfortable and unsure around how much we should be allowed to happily spend on a wedding.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree. I think you earn the right to feel okay about being in the red occasionally if you have a very large net worth. I think at your age, your net worth is really impressive, but I think when we factor in the fact that you\u2019re losing money every single month, that you\u2019re planning to continue that for the foreseeable future, and you\u2019ve got extensive travel and a wedding, that starts to be trickier.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:13]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:13]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, so this goes back to my urgency around changing the other side of the equation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which is?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:19]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Paul getting a job.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:20]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Find a job.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re saying, Paul, if you get a job, suddenly this whole CSP looks a lot better. It gives us a lot more flexibility. We don\u2019t have to change as much as aggressively, and we have money for the wedding.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:37]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:38]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Everything you said is right. I also think that the second I land a job, our situation goes, it is great. And we really don\u2019t have to worry, and we can go back to investing aggressively each month, putting money away, and we don\u2019t have to stress about trying to cut back on places we don\u2019t want to cut back on. I agree with that. It ratchets up the pressure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:03]\u00a0So emotionally, it\u2019s difficult. I feel really guilty asking Maddie to pull back on spending when I am the problem and could solve the problem by getting a job. I think that on one hand, I want us to be a team, and I would love for Maddie to support me emotionally while I\u2019m looking for a job and say, it\u2019s okay. We can handle for three months. If it\u2019s six months, that\u2019s totally fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:34]\u00a0We\u2019ll be okay. You should find the right job. Rationally, when we look at the numbers, it makes me think, yeah, I need to fix the side of the equation, the income equation as soon as possible. And I should also be cutting back my own spending significantly and not asking Maddie to cut back as much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is there a difference in what you spend versus what Maddie spends on the CSP?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:57]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, we\u2019ve aggregated it all for the purposes of this, but yeah, there would be a difference. We spend in different areas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:03]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, we have different weak spots.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:06]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I spend way more on shopping.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. It\u2019s all rolled into that five to 7,000 a month. Okay. And where do you spend money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:12]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0We do a lot of travel together, but I\u2019ll go on a golfing weekend with my guy friends. I love to cook, and I spend a lot of money on food and groceries, and gym\u2019s very expensive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What about the wedding? How much do you want to spend on your wedding?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:31]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re struggling with this because we look at this number and we\u2019re saying, okay, it\u2019s going to be the best day of our lives. Also, we are super social, and I like love to party, and I really want to have a wedding. It makes me really excited. But there\u2019s also this looming stress and guilt about the fact that we are on one income and should we actually be dipping into this? Is this reckless?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:59]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0We budgeted 80,000. I basically just decided that based on comparing it to friends\u2019 weddings, the number didn\u2019t seem like it would destroy our finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where will the 80,000 come from?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:14]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It would come from our investments.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just one question because I\u2019ve planned a wedding. This 80k number that you picked, did you actually go through it and map out everything, the dress, the bachelor party?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:29]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh no, that\u2019s just for the wedding.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Part of my work with couples is really allowing them to share what\u2019s on their mind, and I try as hard as possible not to interject midway through. Mostly, I want them to be able to tell the full story. But now that I have finished speaking with Paul and Maddie,\u00a0and\u00a0as I\u2019m re-listening to this part of our conversation, I just have to be really directive. This is a really bad idea.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:55]\u00a0They have arbitrarily picked a number based on what friends spent. They haven\u2019t run a real analysis. The wedding, and the bachelor, bachelorette parties, and the honeymoon, and all the assorted expenses will probably triple cost\u00a0and all of this on one income when they\u2019re already in the red each month. Do not do this. Do not. I don\u2019t mind taking calculated risks, but you have to know what the risks are, and you have to build a healthy buffer for the risks you didn\u2019t plan on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:28]\u00a0What they\u2019ve done here is multiplied risk times risk, times risk. And if one thing doesn\u2019t work out, everything else comes crashing down. I\u2019ve built a life so I could avoid that at all costs, and I hope you do too, but it takes some tough decisions.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:45]\u00a0\u00a0We\u2019ll get back to this story after these brief messages.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:48]\u00a0\u00a0Thanks for sticking around. Let\u2019s get right back to it.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:51]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve mentally prepared myself for it to be 100 to 120.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:57]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that sounds right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So 120. Weddings have some of the highest phantom costs ever. I wouldn\u2019t be surprised if it ended up being 150.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:09]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0That would be almost double what we planned.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did the oxygen just get sucked out of this room? What just happened? Hmm. What are y\u2019all thinking right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:19]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:21]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I would not want to spend 150 on a wedding.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you agree?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:26]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What if your wedding costs a total of $50,000?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:33]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Gives us a lot more breathing room.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot more. But you know what kind of wedding you\u2019d get for 50k? It\u2019s not the wedding you have in your mind. What do you think, Maddie? Maddie\u2019s going, no\u00a0fucking way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:44]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Don\u2019t want it. I\u2019d rather not have a wedding.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:47]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0We really struggle with this because we\u2019ve lived in three, four different cities each. We have friend groups from each of those places. We want our family to be there, and we\u2019ve gone through the numbers and tried to cut down the list, and we always get to the point of saying, could we turn this into a 50-person, 60-person wedding instead of a 120-person wedding, and we don\u2019t think we can.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Let\u2019s go back to the numbers. Technically, you could do it. Sell $150,000 from your investments. You\u2019d still have $475,000 or so. You can do it. What\u2019s the problem?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:33]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a huge chunk to take out of the investments.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And that number would turn into well over a million dollars over the course of your life. But weddings are a big deal. I spent a lot of money on my wedding. I get it. If you can afford it, are there any other problems with it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:50]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0The stress of doing it. I think what will happen is we will do it, but we won\u2019t, and we will be stressed about it the whole time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Correct. Same way you\u2019ve treated every large purchase. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:03]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0For sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So mathematically, you could do it. You have the money you\u2019ve invested. How\u2019d you get all this money by the way?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:11]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0A portion of it is inheritance.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. From your parents?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:16]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0From grandparents. So we got\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Heck, how much of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:23]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe a quarter to a third of it, and then the rest comes from, we\u2019ve just been working. I\u2019ve been working for almost a decade. Maddie\u2019s been working for seven years, and we\u2019ve invested and saved.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good for you. All right. Good to hear. The inheritance part, good to know. The other part is what particularly interests me, which is it shows demonstrated ability to invest consistently. It tells me that you\u2019re going to continue having probably high income jobs, and you\u2019re going to be able to invest aggressively over time. I agree. I think that\u2019s great, and I think you\u2019ve proven that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:57]\u00a0On the other hand, from the way that you describe your lifestyle, it seems like you like nice things. I don\u2019t mind it. You like nice things. Great. I would say, you do not want to get in this situation where you have these high incomes and you are essentially living paycheck to paycheck.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:17]\u00a0It\u2019s a really miserable way to live, to be making three, four, $500,000 a year wanting to stay at these hotels, go with your friends, and you are sitting there like, I don\u2019t know if we can order the salad. It\u2019s really going to be expensive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:32]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think about that? You feel like you keep up with the Joneses?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:38]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How so?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:41]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0We hang out with people who money feels to be less of a concern due to their backgrounds.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:53]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think we keep up with the Joneses to a ridiculous extent.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Seeing\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:00]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Maddie doesn\u2019t agree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you say, Maddie?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:04]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I definitely disagree with that. I think we have a lot of trips. We do a lot of group trips. We do a lot of nice things. We buy a lot of nice things, and there\u2019s definitely a sense like, we need to keep up. Or not we need to; we want to keep up. Obviously, if we get invited on a girls\u2019 trip to Ibiza, I want to go. And if he gets invited to a boys\u2019 golf trip in Spain, we want to attend these things, and we do. But then we feel stressed about spending afterwards.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you ever say, no, I can\u2019t go because we can\u2019t afford it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:44]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:46]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes yes, but I also struggle to say no to friends.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:52]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m terrible at saying no.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It would be easy to scoff and say, oh my God, Paul and Maddie, so ridiculous, so entitled. The first thing you need to do is stop caring what other people think.\u00a0I love that people say that with a straight face while holding an iPhone, wearing the same five brands as your five friends.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:09]\u00a0Using a probiotic that 80 of your friends do, living in a house you bought because everyone told you that you need to own while driving an SUV you bought because you have a two-month old kid, and society tells us we need an SUV for our young child who can\u2019t walk. We are all social animals. We\u2019re all part of a larger community that influences our spending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:28]\u00a0The minute you start accepting that is the minute you can decide which societal influences you want to accept and which don\u2019t align with your\u00a0Rich Life.\u00a0The problem is they don\u2019t have a crystal clear vision of their own\u00a0Rich Life,\u00a0and they don\u2019t have the money to be able to afford this type of lifestyle.\u00a0So unless something changes, they will simply spend on whatever their friends spend on, whatever they get invited to, leaving them wondering, where\u2019s all the money going?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s be honest. You have $627,000 invested at a young age. Very impressive. You have a high-income job. When you land your next job, it\u2019s going to be high income together. Fast forward for me 10 years. Where are you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:18]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Spending has gone up a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Like what would you be spending on differently?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:22]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0We would be living in a much more expensive apartment or a small house. Our vacations and travel spend would continue to get more expensive. In 10 years, we probably have a child or two. Yeah. I think you can probably just add a multiplier to everything on the list and everything gets more expensive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree. And some of it becomes exponentially more expensive. If you\u2019re taking two kids to a very nice hotel and you\u2019re like, we want to sleep, you\u2019re getting two rooms. Maybe you have childcare coming with you. Now you\u2019re talking about something that\u2019s not just two times more expensive, but three times more. So it starts to really ramp up. What happens in terms of your careers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:02]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0So we both plan to keep working.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, you are.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:06]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0And prioritize our careers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You\u2019ll be working more. You\u2019ll be earning more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:10]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Earning more. Be very busy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:13]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I can imagine it turning into a stressful situation of we\u2019re so dependent on having a high income that if anything goes wrong, one of us could have a health issue. There could be a family thing. If we drop to one income with our expenses up like crazy then.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now you can do it. You can do it with one income. You can actually do it quite handily if you were to cut a bunch of discretionary expenses. But at a point where you have one kid, two kids, childcare, you can\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:41]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of pressure, a lot of stress around it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You feel that way now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:45]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So at a certain point, the tail starts wagging the dog. You\u2019re like, yeah, we\u2019re so grateful that we had these high-income jobs, but now we need these jobs. That\u2019s just the path forward that you painted for me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:01]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:02]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0But at the same time, I do have a lot of faith in our ability to keep providing and earning good incomes, and work is really important to us. I don\u2019t see a scenario where one of us wants to stop working. But I don\u2019t want to walk a tightrope.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You could do it. You\u2019ll be like so many other people living in major cities that have to work and are petrified of losing their job because if they lose it for one month, everything falls apart. You know people like that, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:32]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0We are those people.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, you mentioned you\u2019re both in couples therapy, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:39]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Were you seeing this therapist while you were going through the stressful work time?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:44]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, definitely. Plus another individual therapist just myself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Was that helpful?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:50]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It was incredibly helpful. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. What\u2019d you take away from speaking to your therapist? What surprised you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:57]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0The biggest benefit that my therapist brought was just getting my head out of the muck and taking me out of the day-to-days fear to see the bigger picture.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. To zoom out and look at the whole situation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:11]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Give myself a bit more perspective from a 30,000-foot view instead of the day to day.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Quick reminder, I\u2019m not a therapist, but I frequently encourage my guests to see one. Paul is mentioning that his therapist encouraged him to zoom out to see the big picture. This is very similar to zooming out of the day-to-day expenses to ask yourself, what\u2019s my\u00a0Rich Life? What\u2019s our\u00a0Rich Life?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is your meaningful Rich Life for the next three years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:43]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Going to our closest friends\u2019 weddings. Four this year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:48]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I thought the number was closer to eight or nine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:51]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I think four are meaningful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:55]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:56]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0So I would say maybe four or five combined. And then being able to afford the wedding that we want for us. And I would say taking advantage of us, having some time off together, and doing something we maybe wouldn\u2019t be able to do in another period of our life, like, for example, when we have kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:22]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we could cut down to four weddings. It\u2019d be happy to do that. Taking a long trip. I agree that it\u2019s an opportunity that we probably won\u2019t have, we might never have again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:35]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want to have to go to the community gym, for example. I want to keep going to Barry\u2019s Bootcamp.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:41]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to keep traveling around Europe while we\u2019re there. We don\u2019t know how long we\u2019ll live there for.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Anything else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:49]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s really important to me that we keep investing our money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:53]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0While we\u2019re just on one income. I think we should still be trying to invest $1,000 a month. Once we\u2019re on two incomes, then I think we have an opportunity to invest 30% of our take home, 35%. Really crank that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How would you do that 35% plus traveling, plus wedding? No, doesn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:14]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Well. Travel and weddings is the biggest one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. What\u2019s more important? Traveling to other people\u2019s wedding or your wedding?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:24]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Our wedding.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:24]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Our wedding. Yeah. Aside from small circle core friends, I\u2019d want to make sure that we\u2019re out there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So four friends, you\u2019ll be at their weddings guaranteed. Right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:34]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. It\u2019s a great vision. Just to ballpark it, it\u2019s probably a couple with no kids making six to $800,000 a year. It\u2019s a lot of money. You probably don\u2019t realize that because the people around you have normalized the type of travel that you\u2019re doing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:03]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Definitely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not actually normal for people making $230,000, which is a very good income, to be traveling eight times a year internationally, plus your own personal travel, plus Barry\u2019s Bootcamp, plus shopping and golf trips. So you\u2019re living a great life, no doubt. And I love your vision for an even greater life. It\u2019s beautiful, but your income is not commensurate with your vision, nor will it be. And so you\u2019re actually setting yourself up to constantly feel poor relative to everyone else around you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:37]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Now that we\u2019ve seen how these numbers could play out and the situation that we could be in 10 years from now, if we keep going, being so dependent on a high income, do you feel like it\u2019s important enough to us to make some sacrifices on saying no to things so that we can build a bit more margin of safety into our plan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:00]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I do feel that way, but I think we will have a bit of a misalignment over where that line is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you willing to flex a bit more to my side to prioritize this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:15]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0A bit. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:17]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Sounds like a no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This is a great discussion. Keep going. Part of this is really being honest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:23]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Where do you think that we could say no to?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:30]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Other trips in between, like you can golf less. Isn\u2019t that an expensive hobby?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:37]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:38]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0I could shop way less. We could maybe make sacrifices when we\u2019re at the weddings and if everyone\u2019s staying at a really nice hotel, maybe we stay at a super cheap hotel and just do things a bit differently.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Would you be willing to say no to those?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:00]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Some, yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me propose a different way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:07]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Please.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You could make a change so that a series of coordinated decisions, you would build a portfolio that was so large that it would be a moat against anything happening. It would be a moat against one of you ending up in a job or under a manager that you didn\u2019t like. You could quit knowing that you have financial security.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:35]\u00a0It would be a moat so that if and when you decide to have children, you can have childcare and never have to stress about a nanny, or a babysitter, or whatever type of childcare you need. You could build a life with a series of coordinated decisions where you were still traveling, still enjoying eating out, all that. But you\u2019d have to be conscious about which ones were the most important because they would not all be equal to you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:10]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s a necessary step. I think we\u2019ve had so many conversations where we try to align on what\u2019s actually important to us. Where do we want to spend? But it\u2019s this compulsion to be at everything and live such a social life just drains us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You want that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:38]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It would be easy to say, no. I don\u2019t want that, but I do want to be at all of my friend\u2019s weddings. I missed a friend\u2019s bachelor party just two weekends ago, and it killed me to miss it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:48]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I don\u2019t want to say no to our good friends\u2019 weddings.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:53]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we need to commit to realizing that we need to make sacrifices along the way to get there.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Maddie:<\/strong>\u00a0But I also have a lot of like, I don\u2019t want to say no to things.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The conversation began with Maddie agonizing over Paul\u2019s recent decision to leave his company, which was affecting his mental health. She looked over his shoulder. She constantly nudges him to find another job, but it turns out that the real problem is a joint dynamic where they both want to have it all.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:33]\u00a0They live like they make at least $750,000 a year, but they\u2019re not making anywhere close to that. They\u2019ve taken multiple international trips. They\u2019re planning an expensive wedding, but nobody is willing to say no. You hear lots of detailed reasoning. We love our friends. We love our family.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:50]\u00a0We\u00a0want to\u00a0be there for them, but in the end, their spending is no different than someone in $38,000 of credit card debt who can\u2019t stop buying random junk. If they don\u2019t create a vision for themselves, they will forever be chasing what other people think, no matter how much money they earn.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:08]\u00a0Yet that\u2019s what happened to her dad, and now that\u2019s what\u2019s happening to Paul and Maddie. And unless they make a change, they will probably pass that along to their children. Let\u2019s take a listen to Paul\u2019s follow-up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:21]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Hey, Ramit. Thanks so much for having us on your podcast. I think we both really enjoyed the conversation and had some important takeaways from it. I think the two things that really stuck with me from our conversation, first one was how we have this great opportunity to really get ahead with our finances over the next decade or so.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:37]\u00a0I think the phrase you used was to build a moat that will basically protect our financial future. But to do that, we have to be more intentional and purposeful with our spending decisions, especially by getting more comfortable saying no both to ourselves and to outside commitments.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:54]\u00a0And we\u2019ve definitely made some big changes since our conversation. We sat down and built out targets for spending in each category in our plan, and we do a quick catch up call on Sunday nights to check if we\u2019re on track and make any changes if we have to. And as a result of this, our spending has actually dropped quite dramatically.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:11]\u00a0We\u2019ve also done the exercise that you mentioned of deciding which areas we want to prioritize in our long-term vision. And we realized that we need to be intentional about protecting that vision. So you\u2019ll be happy to know that we\u2019ve changed our travel schedule quite a bit for the year, and we were able to politely decline several destination weddings that probably would have placed quite a bit of a strain on us financially.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I have to say, I\u2019m cautiously optimistic. I love that they made these changes, extremely impressive. And what is really impressive is that they systematized it. They talk on Sundays. They built out targets. All of these things go far beyond trying to do better. These are now part of their\u00a0Rich Life\u00a0operating system.\u00a0The reason that I say I am cautious, I didn\u2019t get a follow up from Maddie.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:59]\u00a0So Paul and Maddie, I\u2019m wishing you the best. You have a chance to build a financial moat around your entire lives that will allow you to live an amazing life together, but you have to make these tough decisions now, and you most importantly have to have a clear joint vision of your\u00a0Rich Life.<\/p>\n<p><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Paul, 33, and Maddie, 29, flew to New York City from London for a live-recorded episode\u2014providing a valuable first clue to their spending habits. She is a high earner, but worries about lifestyle creep. He recently left his job, and they\u2019re treading water on one income. This episode is brought to you by: Fabric by [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118894","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118894","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118894"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118894\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118894"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118894"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}