{"id":118903,"date":"2024-06-18T10:53:43","date_gmt":"2024-06-18T14:53:43","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118903"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:28:08","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:28:08","slug":"161-jim-dana","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/161-jim-dana\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 161. \u201cHe hid $77k in CC debt from me\u2014but can\u2019t tell me what he bought\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cHe hid $77k in CC debt\u2026but can\u2019t tell me what he bought\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/iQq7xu0yRmI\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/0Pka7IpBZQWKC4J1YhkDLs?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Jim and Dana are 58, five years into their second marriages, and coping with changes in their new lifestyle in different ways. Jim is set on providing as he follows patterns from his past, hiding tens of thousands in debt. Dana daydreams of her past in California\u2014and the lifetime of alimony she passed up.<\/p>\n<p>This episode is brought to you by:<\/p>\n<p>Superhuman | Get a free month of lightning fast email at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/try.sprh.mn\/ramitsethi\">https:\/\/try.sprh.mn\/ramitsethi<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>Mint Mobile | To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/mintmobile.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/mintmobile.com\/ramit<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>Claritin | Visit\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/claritin.com\/\">https:\/\/claritin.com<\/a>\u00a0right now for a discount so you can get allergy relief and live Claritin Clear.<\/p>\n<p>Babbel | For our listeners only, get 60% off your Babbel subscription at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/babbel.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/Babbel.com\/ramit<\/a>.<\/p>\n<p>DeleteMe | If you want to get your personal information removed from the web, go to\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/joindeleteme.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/joindeleteme.com\/ramit<\/a>\u00a0for 20% off.<\/p>\n<h2>Show Transcript<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/en.wikipedia.org\/wiki\/Socioeconomic_mobility_in_the_United_States#Comparisons_with_other_countries\">Socioeconomic mobility in the United States (Wikipedia)<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0She said, if you spend $1 without talking to me about it, that\u2019s it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:06]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve hidden 77,000 and you come to me now. Because it had happened three times, I just thought maybe I\u2019m throwing good money after bad. I felt like I made it too easy, and so I\u2019m afraid that it could happen again. I\u2019m afraid to trust him with the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you had to describe how you think she feels right now, what would you say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:32]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly how she said, absolutely betrayed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:36]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0This is my previous life. This is what I thought I was getting away from. I know what it\u2019s like not to trust somebody. And it\u2019s extremely hard to get that back. And we have less time to earn trust back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So where\u2019d the money go? That\u2019s what I want to know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:52]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Me too.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Today I get the chance to speak to Dana and Jim. They\u2019re both 58 years old, both nearing retirement, and they\u2019re worried if they will have enough. This is the second marriage for both of them. One of the reasons I love this podcast is I get to share stories from people in all different parts of life\u2013 young, old millionaires, people with $200,000 of debt, gay, straight, immigrants, people who live all over the world.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:17]\u00a0My hope is to show you how similar we all are when it comes to money. And I also hope that you will listen to these couples and apply their lessons to your own life. For example, when I speak to older couples, they\u2019re giving us the gift of a crystal ball into our own future so that we can learn from their journey and decide which lessons we\u00a0want to\u00a0apply.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:39]\u00a0Now, for Dana and Jim, there\u2019s something shocking that happened that broke their financial trust, and they realized it as they were filling out their conscious spending plan. Let\u2019s get right into it.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:51]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0As I was filling it out, I found an additional quantity of debt that I did not know he had, and that we have a whole history of this. It was pretty traumatic.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:05]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0When we first moved, he came to me, and he said, hey, there\u2019ve been some expenses. It\u2019s not bad. It\u2019s not bad. I just want to consolidate it and get it paid off. I don\u2019t know that I asked him, maybe I did, how much it was, but I remember thinking, that\u2019s manageable. It was about maybe $20,000. And I thought, okay. But a year later, he came to me and said, I need you to handle everything. I have $77,000 in credit card debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0From 20k to 77,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:40]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t know what to say. That was just so unheard of. And I kept thinking, where\u2019s $77,000? I don\u2019t see what we got for that. And he was unable to tell me how it was spent. I was furious, that whole concept of financial infidelity. You\u2019ve hidden 77,000 and you come to me now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:05]\u00a0But I tried to be calm in the moment because it\u2019s a problem, and it had to be fixed. And he just said, can you fix this? And I put together a plan, and he said, I\u2019m going to work really hard, and I\u2019m going to do all these things. And so I said, okay, you\u2019re good. I didn\u2019t monitor him day in, day out. And then after filling out the CSP, I found another 22,000?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:32]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0It wasn\u2019t that much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:33]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I don\u2019t remember exactly because by that point it was\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:38]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0About 12 more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:40]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0But I was like, I can\u2019t believe that this has happened three times. I can\u2019t trust this person. This is my previous life. This is what I thought I was getting away from, not monetarily. I thought I could trust him. It felt just like finding out he was seeing somebody on the side. It felt that bad. It\u2019s been tough since then.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you for sharing that. Sorry, you\u2019ve had to go through that. And Jimmy, I definitely want to hear your perspective. Dana, how long ago was that conversation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:21]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0A month ago.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:23]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:23]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:24]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Two months? More recent?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:27]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0A bit farther.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:29]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Whenever we filled up the CSP.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:31]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0It was February, so it\u2019s two months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:33]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that a big difference, Jimmy? Whether it\u2019s one month or two months ago?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:40]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How come the need to correct? I\u2019m curious.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:45]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Sometimes I don\u2019t feel like I\u2019m being heard, so I feel like I need to when I can positively say something that\u2019s right or not right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I can promise you you\u2019re going to have a chance to be heard today. I guarantee that. Let\u2019s rewind to that CSP conversation. She handed you the CSP, which had some numbers filled out. What do you remember feeling when she handed you that CSP?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:16]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Sick.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:20]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I knew that I had failed utterly. I was in debt, an incredible amount, and didn\u2019t know if I was going to be able to claw my way back out of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. So you filled out some numbers, and then what happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:35]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0She justifiably got very angry. So we have our problems because we\u2019re human beings, but I really do enjoy being with her, and she\u2019s fun to travel with.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I appreciate that. Just to go back on that last thing you said, we have our problems. Let\u2019s zoom in on the money stuff because that\u2019s why we\u2019re talking today. You have you, the collective you, have your financial challenges because, what? It\u2019s not because you\u2019re human. What is the primary reason that you have the financial challenges that we\u2019re talking today?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:19]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t have a plan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of people don\u2019t have a plan, and they don\u2019t end up in $80,000 of credit card debt. So where\u2019d the money go? That\u2019s what I want to know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:31]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Me too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:35]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Robbing Peter to pay Paul, the gas, electricity, the gas in the vehicles. Everything was happening on a credit card. So at that point, we\u2019re already at 20,000 plus. And then we had some furnace issues about three times. Those were about a grand every time it happened.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:54]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0And then I\u2019ve done some stuff that just hasn\u2019t went well. I\u2019ve raised cattle and always made something on that. Well, I haven\u2019t done so well this time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s just go through the numbers. How much on the steers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:09]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0About seven.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a07k. All right. So far you\u2019re at 30k. How to get to 80?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:14]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0When we went on trips. It just depended. It was usually minimum 1,000, sometimes 1,500.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Times how many trips?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:24]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Three.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. 5,000 bucks. Okay. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:29]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Bought clothes when I shouldn\u2019t have.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s 1,000 bucks, 2,000 bucks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:35]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s probably more than that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, what? What type of do you like, Jimmy? You\u2019re speaking my language all of a sudden.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:43]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0We went to Italy. I like to shop. He could get into each place trying on leather coats, a leather bag. He wears cashmere socks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:54]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No, no, no, no, no, no. They\u2019re Paka. They\u2019re Paka.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:56]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. They\u2019re from alpaca. And it\u2019s the same idea. They\u2019re expensive socks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:01]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0It was more than three grand. It was probably closer to five or six. Because it wasn\u2019t just for me. I would buy stuff for other people too. I loved giving gifts.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:13]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I had to put some tires on my truck. I had to put some tires on my car.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re at 40,000 bucks, or 41,000. Get me to the next 40k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:22]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0There was stuff in when we were working on the basement that I did. I paid for part of that. And I have had to more than one time buy medicine for my mother.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did that cost?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:36]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0About $400, and I have done it 10 or 12 times.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:42]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0You told me she reimbursed you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:45]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No, not the last. Not for a while.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:50]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0And he does have a thing for watches.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:51]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I haven\u2019t bought a watch in years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dana, do you know why he didn\u2019t tell you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:57]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0He was embarrassed, and he wanted to be\u2013 maybe I\u2019m just guessing. The discrepancy in our lifestyles for the last 30 years is so huge. And I think it\u2019s been hard. I know he wants to provide things, and I think he wanted to make me happy. It just backfired when it made me really unhappy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jimmy, what do you notice about all those things that you just shared with me?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:26]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t need a lot of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:28]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t have a plan, and I\u2019m not trying to use a buzzword. I didn\u2019t have any backup money for that like I should.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, what else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:39]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I had at that point listened to the podcast that she had suggested and got reminded of everything I had been doing wrong, and there was no way to recover from it. My former job, I could have worked some more overtime. I could have done this. I could have done that. But I can\u2019t this time, and there\u2019s no way to come back from it without absolutely cutting everything. So that\u2019s where I\u2019m at now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:20]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Actually, I the one thing I do remember is she said, if you spend $1 without talking to me about it, that\u2019s it. I\u2019ve been divorced once. I really don\u2019t want to do this again. And I like Dana a lot more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you had to describe how you think she feels right now, what would you say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:43]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly how she said, absolutely betrayed.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just in this short conversation, you can hear so many clues. Jim trying to correct Dana, about when they had a conversation about money, as if that matters. Jim talking about where he spent his money, but it doesn\u2019t add up, not even by half. He really has no idea what he spent his money on. Dana, alludes to their lifestyle being different, which suggests that Jim\u2019s role is threatened.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:10]\u00a0Notice that he casually mentions he likes to buy gifts for others.\u00a0I can almost guarantee that he sees himself as a provider, as almost all men do. For men, being a provider is a primary form of status. What you can already see is what this entire podcast is about. A Rich Life goes way, way deeper than numbers alone.\u00a0It\u2019s about how we talk about money, how we behave with money, and it\u2019s about how we feel about our money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:40]\u00a0Hold that thought. We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:42]\u00a0Let\u2019s keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:44]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0My former job, I worked 60, 70 hours plus a week. And there\u2019s always overtime. There was always tons of work that needed to be done. I physically couldn\u2019t do that anymore. So I tried to get a job in the area, couldn\u2019t get the job in the area, so we ended up moving here. Part of the reason I had to leave that job is my shoulder got messed up on the job.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:06]\u00a0So we were four months that I was on, whatever disability gives, which was barely enough to cover the mortgage and the COBRA insurance. So a whole bunch of credit card wound up on that. When I started my new job, I kept living like I was still making the same income. I actually took a pay cut. But I didn\u2019t stop living like I was still making the same money. And we\u2019re talking, went from 90,000 to about 72 or 3,000. And even with that, this is probably the best I\u2019ve ever had it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:43]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not required to work 60 to 70 hours a week just to make a living. I\u2019m being trained to take over a job that will increase my pay anywhere from 25 to 50%. And thus far at this company, nobody has lied to me. They have been straight up front, and if they say it, they do it. I\u2019m excited about that. So I\u2019m working hard to get that 50% increase.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Give me an example, Jimmy, when you say you didn\u2019t change the way you were spending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:15]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0We would go out to eat, and I would just pay for other people when I shouldn\u2019t have.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like who?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:22]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I remember we went on a trip to see some friends of mine from college, and I just paid for meals and stuff for them because I thought I should.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, and how many times did you go out to dinner or lunch or whatever were you paid?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:35]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0At least three.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So over a period of a few days, you paid at least three times.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:43]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0But it wasn\u2019t just them. It was just an overall continuation of a lifestyle that I didn\u2019t have anymore. I\u2019m not trying to blame it on one thing. That\u2019s just one example<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I get it. But let me ask you. I understand you go see some old friends. First time you\u2019re out, you go, \u201cLet me get this one. This one\u2019s on me.\u201d They\u2019re like, \u201cOh, you don\u2019t have to.\u201d You\u2019re like, \u201cNo, it\u2019s fine. It\u2019s so great to see you. Put the credit card down.\u201d I get it. The second time and the third time\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:08]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Showing off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me about that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:12]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I maybe just want people to think I\u2019m doing okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, so that went on for a while. And was it really the CSP where you realized, oh my gosh, I\u2019m in big trouble?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:27]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I knew I was in trouble before that. It was just in my face when I listened to the podcast and then the CSP. And when we moved, I didn\u2019t expect some of the costs too. My mortgage is twice of what it was.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:43]\u00a0And this is not blaming Dana because that\u2019s what she heard when I said it. But she needed tires on her car, and she just freaked out because she didn\u2019t have the money to do it. I didn\u2019t have the money to do it either, but I did it because in my head, it\u2019s like, well, I can handle this debt better than she can. Air conditioner went out in her car. Took care of it. I should have been honest up front. I can\u2019t pay for this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Have you ever said that out loud?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:12]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve used them in the past. In my first marriage, there was a lot of times where the kids would want something where I was just like, we can\u2019t do that. I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s interesting. So you have that phrase.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:26]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I have a capability. I had gotten really used to a lifestyle, and you would think that $25,000 a year or so, actually more than if you include all the side jobs that I had on other stuff, wouldn\u2019t make that much of a difference, but it really does.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. When you look back at the last few years with Dana\u2013 how long have you two been married for?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:56]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Five years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You look back with some perspective. What do you notice?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:01]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0That I should have given her some control a long time before I did because she\u2019s better at it. But right from the beginning, she had her money. I had my money. I wish I had done that different, but I can\u2019t keep living, and I wish I would have because I have a lot of those.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Thank you for sharing all that. It\u2019s very illuminating. Dana, any surprises as you hear Jimmy share all of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:27]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0No. Most of that, I\u2019m aware of. I think we have a little different outlook on the circumstances, but I would say the one thing is that they didn\u2019t seem like big\u2013 the tires, air conditioning, I don\u2019t recall saying, I can\u2019t afford that. He just said, hey, I got you new tires. I was like, okay, I don\u2019t know what tires cost. That sounds good. So I thought, wow, he\u2019s doing pretty good. He must be keeping track. And I trust him, so if he can afford it, cool.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, when you both got married, this was your second marriage.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:00]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you have a series of conversations about money at any point?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:06]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I knew him when he grew up. Their family was extremely poor, just really, really poor. So I knew him in high school and then 30 years later, met up again. I thought, wow, he owns a house. He\u2019s got a regular job. His wife doesn\u2019t work. They\u2019ve got these kids, and he\u2019s got a 401k. That\u2019s far more than I thought, given what he knew growing up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:36]\u00a0But Jimmy is the miracle child. Some people are like, that\u2019s your family? He is so different from them. And I was just really so impressed with he could grow up with all of that and still get himself through college, and get a good job, and take care of a family. I had come through a divorce, and we were settling things up, and I bought a house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:01]\u00a0When my ex and I were dividing up retirement accounts and so forth, I was just upfront about where I stood and the amounts. And then I said, do you have an investment account through work, or what do you have? And then he did tell me he had to give half of it to his ex-wife in the divorce settlement. But I was like, oh good. He\u2019s putting money in regularly. Good qualities.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. I respect that. Jimmy, what do you remember about that conversation? Do you remember Dana asking about the 401K?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:33]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I didn\u2019t mind talking about it then.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:36]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I actually gave my ex-wife a little more than half so that I didn\u2019t have to sell the house. I ended up gaining back with equity in the house by leaps and bounds when we sold it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you ask Dana about her financial situation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:52]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0She volunteered it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dana, did you pull out a spreadsheet on the second date?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:58]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, a verbal spreadsheet. I think it\u2019s one of those conversations that comes up when you are fairly recently divorced and you\u2019re in the same boat, so you do a little commiserating<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Totally. You\u2019re comparing. Hey, you\u2019ve both gone through something life changing, and it\u2019s not as taboo anymore to talk about money because it\u2019s been out there, and it\u2019s been raked over the coals. It\u2019s a thing. I love that you two talked about money. I wish more people in all different stages of relationships would talk about money. I think it\u2019s awesome.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:35]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I know we\u2019re focusing on that debt, and it\u2019s huge, and it bothers me, but it\u2019s not a character flaw. He\u2019s a person who really has worked incredibly hard and genuinely is not someone to lie and deceive. It has been that, but it\u2019s not in his nature. It\u2019s something we have to make sure never happens again because I know what it\u2019s like not to trust somebody. And it\u2019s extremely hard to get that back. And we have less time to earn trust back.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What really caught my attention was Dana saying how much she admired Jim for achieving what he did, considering how he grew up. So much of the way that we treat money is based on hunches and assumptions. For example, he paid for her tires. According to Dana, hey, he must be doing fine if he can buy me tires. I don\u2019t blame her.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:32]\u00a0If somebody pays for lunch, we assume they can afford it. We all make assumptions about money.\u00a0\u00a0The point is, in your own relationship, assumptions are dangerous, and it\u2019s so simple to get real answers.\u00a0You can just ask. Hey, can we talk about our finances? It feels like there\u2019s a big elephant in the room because I earn more than you. I love you. I want us to both feel good. Can we talk about how we can make that happen? The good news is they did talk about money when they started dating, but they didn\u2019t let those conversations go deeper.\u00a0As Jim tells me about his family\u2019s relationship with money, I start to understand more.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:09]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0They have 108 acres of really good farm ground that\u2019s completely paid for, but they\u2019re hand to mouth. They\u2019ve always have been. When I was very young, they were not. But all that I can remember is paycheck to paycheck. And if it wasn\u2019t for the garden and all the beef and pork that we raised on our own, we would\u2019ve been very hungry. We were very poor, and they just didn\u2019t talk about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you know you were poor?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:42]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0When you were at school and everybody\u2019s eating Doritos and Twinkies and you\u2019re eating homemade bread that with homemade butter on it, you know you\u2019re poor.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:52]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0You eat it so fast that nobody can see you eating it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. You don\u2019t want them to see you. What are the other clues that you were poor?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:01]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0We worked all the time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Around the house??<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:06]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Out in the barn, out in the fields, and we didn\u2019t have jobs away because we were needed there to take care of that stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where were you raised?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:16]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Around Pittsburgh, Michigan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. And when you were a kid, young, what do you remember about money in your family?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:26]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I remember when I was very young, it would\u2019ve been early \u201970s, and he had a net worth of well over a quarter million dollars just for inflation. That\u2019s not too bad. And he went from that to being almost that much in the debt. And part of it was he just flat out got ripped off by some people. And part of it was bad decisions on his part.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Quarter million bucks in the \u201970s. That\u2019s a lot of money, and he lost it through some bad deals and bad decisions. How old were you when that happened? I\u2019m guessing early teens.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:03]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I was six.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, really? That early.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:05]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. That must have been a huge change. What do you remember about that time?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:09]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0We went from having a really nice farmhouse that was warm all the time to being in another one that wasn\u2019t so warm. And then we went from that to living in a house trailer in my grandpa\u2019s second farm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:24]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0When we had moved to the house trailer, I was a teenager at that point. I was eighth grade, and embarrassing, again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Embarrassing like when friends find out where you live.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:37]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Generally, friends didn\u2019t come to my house. I usually went to theirs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Who is it embarrassing to then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:43]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0It was embarrassing to me. He never declared bankruptcy. He did pay it all back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Have they ever faced any more dire circumstances than that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:52]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, the first time when you got hugely in debt, all the farm equipment got auctioned off. Two of the farms he had got auctioned off. The second time he got in trouble, he actually had a stress heart attack. But he was in financial issues then too, so we had to sell the cows had to sell the farm, and had to move to my grandpa\u2019s place. So yes, there\u2019s been consequences.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did he change his financial behavior?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:22]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Okay. Any siblings?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:26]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Two.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s their relationship with money today?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:33]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Horrible.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really? How so?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:36]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0My brother\u2019s 13 months younger than me. My sister is four years younger than me. They both still live at home. My sister has never paid rent. I\u2019ll just say it. I don\u2019t care if they hear it. They\u2019re leeches and they\u2019re still living off mom and dad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They call it these days, Jimmy, failure to thrive. That\u2019s a new way to say it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:59]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s more of a, say, failure to launch. And they don\u2019t want to launch.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So they\u2019re in their 50s at this point.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:09]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. Did your parents spend a lot of money on anything?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:14]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a lot of money on certain things, as much as things I see now that I just find very wasteful. My grandfather had Belgian workhorses, the great big ones. It was a hobby for him, and he could afford it. When he passed away, my dad took that on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:33]\u00a0Well, they eat a lot of hay, and it\u2019s very expensive. Now he grows it himself, but that\u2019s ground that could be used for something else. And then my dad has a number of antique tractors that I don\u2019t get it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:50]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Just the horses, they eat probably $10,000 worth of hay each year, the three of them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:59]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, got to scrounge around for some gas money. Okay. It\u2019s very hard for them to let go of things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So your grandfather had these Belgian workhorses. Your dad then took them on, spending tons of money that he very likely did not have. Is there any relationship between you having steers and spending $7,000 on steers versus those Belgian workhorses?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:26]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No. I was trying to make money with them. I was making some money before we moved, but then after we moved, prices went up on the commodities that went into them. Now I\u2019m just ready to throw my hands up in the air and say, I can\u2019t make money on this, so I\u2019ve got to find something else.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you find it difficult to close the door on certain things that you own?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:50]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah. Because that\u2019s something I\u2019m good at, raising steers, but I\u2019m not making money at it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It sounds eerily similar to your dad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:02]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0But I don\u2019t have any out here anymore. I have not bought anymore. I actually just sold two of them yesterday, the ones I had left.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What do you make of the fact that they are still living what you describe as hand to mouth?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:14]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t understand it, but I hope they never hear this. They don\u2019t have the internet. I\u2019ve become my parents.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. In what way?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:26]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I let myself get buried in debt. I shouldn\u2019t say even let because that sounds like, oh, it just happens. I did it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good catch. Language determines our future, and it also characterizes our past. I love you taking an active role. I did that. Once you take agency, you can also change that. So I appreciate that. Did you go to college?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:53]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You did. Okay. And your siblings?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:57]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No, my siblings didn\u2019t even graduate high school.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. Okay. Did you graduate from college?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:04]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How\u2019d you pay for that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:06]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Loans and whatever money I could earn. And I paid it off in six years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How\u2019d you do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:14]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I hated the debt, so I paid it off any money I could make with.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait a minute.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:19]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0In my former life, I was always paying stuff off early. Especially if you had the, one year, same as cash. Well, I\u2019m not going to get stuck with that whole interest at the end of it. I will pay it off two months early to make sure that I don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where did you get that from? It doesn\u2019t sound like you learned about it from your parents.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:38]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Actually, I got it from my grandpa. I learned a lot more riding around with my grandpa in the summertime. He was not loaded. If you looked at him, you just thought he was just a dirty, stinky, old farmer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:52]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0But he always manages money well. He was able to buy and pay off two farms. When he passed away, there was money left from my grandma besides what she had earned.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What\u2019d that make you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:09]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0That I should be putting money away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:16]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0When I got to the point I could, it was after I got married. We actually built a house on not a very big income.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:25]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0And if it was all possible, I wanted my wife be able to stay home with the kids, and we were able to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just listen to how stories are passed down from generation to generation. Money is not just numbers on a page. It\u2019s stories, and lessons, and phrases that are passed down from generations ago, sometimes from people you\u2019ve never met.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:50]\u00a0People don\u2019t really like to believe that their behavior is anything but a carefully considered logical extension of them. Like they sat at the grocery store robotically calculating the best value per ounce, and then they methodically decided to buy saltines.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:04]\u00a0No, it\u2019s much more likely that grandma bought saltines than mom bought saltines. And now you buy saltines. Never even knowing why. When I help people make the connection between their behavior and something that happened in their family, you\u2019ve heard it. They\u2019re often stunned.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:22]\u00a0And what I\u2019m asking you to do is to be humble enough to acknowledge that your behavior might actually be the product of your environment.\u00a0And once you accept that, you can start to unpack your environment, and then you can decide if you\u00a0want to\u00a0change the way you treat money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:37]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick break to support our sponsors<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:40]\u00a0\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to Jimmy and Dana.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:43]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m a reverse immigrant. I grew up outside of the United States and didn\u2019t move here until I was almost 14.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh wow. Where did you grow up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:52]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0In Ecuador and then in Honduras. Growing up, especially in Honduras, I felt like the richest person on the planet. All my friends were the ambassadors\u2019 kids. I went to a bilingual school where everybody went. There was such a discrepancy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:06]\u00a0There\u2019s no middle class in high\u2013 it\u2019s a tough place to be. So my mom pulled me aside and she said, I want you to know when you move to the United States, you are not rich. You\u2019re going to be one of the more poor people. I had a really hard transition. I was not happy. And then they moved to this rural place in the middle of nowhere.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s rewind back to Ecuador and Honduras. What were your parents doing that you were raised there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:34]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0So my parents were missionaries, and my dad specialized, and I won\u2019t go into this too much, but I loved his philosophy that people go, and most of them are preaching or doing these things. And he felt that one of his skills, and he has multiple degrees of master\u2019s, but one of his passions was organic gardening back in this \u201970s, late \u201960s, \u201970s.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:58]\u00a0And he worked on increasing crop production and cattle production, teaching people how to maximize these kind of things. So we moved around some. He was always doing crazy things. One place, we raised orchids; another place, rabbits; one place putting in wilderness campgrounds for American\u2013 he taught briefly as a professor at the University [Inaudible]. It was a coolest childhood imaginable. I was having a ball until they dragged me out of there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why did they leave?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:29]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0They felt that the political climate was a little bit sketchy. That was the whole Sandinista time period and so forth. And then they were concerned that I wasn\u2019t going to get as good of an education as I could if we were back at the United States<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:43]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0My family\u2019s, my dad especially, investing, and saving, and prioritizing. We got an allowance. We learned what portion we saved, what we did with it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:58]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Right from the beginning, that was really important.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did he learn that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:04]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, both of my grandfathers bought and sold property and stock, and they were investing at the very beginning. We always joke because my one grandfather bought this company called Walmart, and he bought stock. They both ended up doing really well. He panicked. Lesson learned. Lots was lost. But my grandfather\u2019s goal was to learn to live on 10% of his income so he could give away 90%. And he lived very well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:38]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0He succeeded too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:40]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, both of my grandparents\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:41]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0It just wasn\u2019t a goal.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:43]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0No, he did. My grandma and grandpa both are pilots for their own airplane, and my grandmother, cute little thing, you wouldn\u2019t ride in a car with her, but she could fly an airplane. But they did things because they made wise monetary moves. And my grandfather was entirely a self-made person. He was in the Marines, came back, started his own heating and air conditioning company.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:05]\u00a0I never knew my grandfather working. He was retired in his 40s. And he always explained how he did it and the responsibility you have with money. He loved talking about it. My brother and I can talk about it all the time. And we saw the results of hard work on saving.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s amazing. That\u2019s really cool.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:28]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0It was a wonderful legacy. The other thing my grandfather did is he said, this is back when you would read the stock in the newspaper. And so you could go in, and he would say, once you go in, tell me what you\u2019d buy. And if you, over a certain period of time, made money on your selection, and you had to read, you knew when it\u2013 what the track record was and so forth, then he would buy some stock for you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:56]\u00a0And if you didn\u2019t do well, he\u2019d talked to you about what you didn\u2019t do. Now, some of the cousins didn\u2019t like it at all, but my brother and I thought it was a game. But he taught those lessons to his grandkids. It was important.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You like to talk about money now, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:14]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You do. Okay. You talked about it early on in your relationship here with Jimmy. Talk about it a lot here. Jimmy, do you like to talk about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:27]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dana, what lessons do you think you bring from your childhood experience with money to this relationship with Jimmy?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:39]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0The one thing I told Jimmy was I was already living my Rich Life. I loved my life. I lived in California for 20 some years, raised all my kids there. I got to be a stay-at-home mom as long as I wanted to on one income in Northern California. It was a good life. And I miss a lot of that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:03]\u00a0It\u2019s been extremely hard to adjust. But my kids were already out of college into grad school or in college. I was all of a sudden going to get to do all these things. I would have all this freedom. I traveled with my girlfriends. We went places, and then that all crashed. My ex-husband and I, right from the beginning, the thing we did best was money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:29]\u00a0We had plans right from day one. We set our goals. He maxed out his 401 Ks. We were doing really well, on target, way ahead of schedule. And then I feel like how unfair, I mean, I know life isn\u2019t fair, but it\u2019s like we were there, I was doing everything right. I sacrificed where I needed to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:47]\u00a0It felt a little bit like I had lost ground and fallen out of the structure that I was in before, the whole social structure and everything I ever was a part of. And I felt like people would feel sorry for me. Like, oh, she had it so good. Moving from California to Michigan, everyone says, why? And then I get to tell them why, and it just feels like a downgrade.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s talk about socioeconomic mobility in America. Not something you might normally hear on a podcast, but it\u2019s important. Just as families have stories, so do countries. In America, we\u2019ve all been taught that if you work hard, you can achieve anything. We even have phrases like, I want my kids to have better than I had.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:36]\u00a0Well, it turns out that America has very low social mobility. If you were born poor, odds are very good you\u2019ll remain poor. If you were born wealthy, you\u2019ll probably remain wealthy. Journalist Jason DeParle points out that, \u201cAbout 62% of Americans in the top fifth of incomes stay in the top two fifths.\u00a0According to research by the Economic Mobility Project of the Pew Charitable Trust, 65% born in the bottom fifth stay in the bottom two fifths.\u201d And listen to this, \u201cJust 8% of American men at the bottom rose to the top fifth.\u201d I\u2019ll link the Wikipedia page with tons of primary research in the show notes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:17]\u00a0What\u2019s really shocking is we might say that our childhood zip code is a far better determinant of our success than how hard we work. Something that is a direct slap in the face to the myths we\u2019ve been taught since childhood. Are there exceptions? Sure, there are. I\u2019m one of\u00a0them, for example, but I know that in addition to working really hard, I got insanely lucky along the way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0Now, consider Dana\u2019s story. She grew up with educated parents who taught her about the importance of money. She got married, saved, and invested aggressively. She did all of the things that upper middle class and wealthy people do in America, but then she got divorced. In America, we\u2019re only told about going up, earning more, spending more, giving more to our kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:04]\u00a0But nobody ever talks about going down, which is why going from a certain socioeconomic class to a lower socioeconomic class is absolutely devastating and isolating. Most of us simply will not consider the idea that we might not be able to eat at the same restaurants we\u2019re used to or buy the things we\u2019re accustomed to.\u00a0And in my experience, people will do almost anything aside from directly acknowledging that they have gone down the socioeconomic ladder.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jimmy, when it comes to money, what word would you use to describe yourself for most of your life?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:41]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I made it, and I paid the bills.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019d you call that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:47]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0A provider.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Basically, most men in America, that is the word they use to describe themselves, provider. What are the implications of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:00]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0That you just don\u2019t provide the basics. You wouldn\u2019t provide the wants and wishes too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So you\u2019re not a subsistence farmer. You want to provide for more than mere basics. I agree. Hence the providing of dinners on your card for your classmates who you haven\u2019t seen in years. The offering to pay for tires when you yourself have tens of thousands of dollars of credit card debt. Hiding of how bad it\u2019s really becoming because if you are not a provider, then you are a?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:35]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Failure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Failure. And in America, most of us, particularly men, we would prefer to feel anything other than shame, especially shame around our identity as a provider, which brings us to today. So you got married. You talked about finances a little bit. Did you keep your finances separate since this was a second marriage?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:03]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:03]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0This was a conversation we specifically had, was that I wouldn\u2019t need to contribute anything. He already paid all the bills and everything else. My money would be spent for trips and eating out, those kinds of things. And I was like, wow, that\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who made more money at that time, by the way?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:25]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much more?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:27]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a040,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you were like, you\u2019re not going to need to work, or you\u2019re not going to need to contribute to the mortgage or whatever. I\u2019ll take care of all that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:37]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I already was, so that didn\u2019t change.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:44]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0So I gave up a nice alimony for life that was hard to accept that I didn\u2019t have to work. But if I married, I gave it up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Are you okay sharing how much that was?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:01]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I was netting 5,000 a month. But I think maybe I\u2019m just thinking this now, that that might\u2019ve been threatening for Jimmy, like, she\u2019s marrying me, and she\u2019s giving up what money she had. How can I continue to make her life good? And I think in some ways, a lot of that debt came from trying to make me happy and make it okay that I did that. And on my end, I probably have vocalized a lot of regrets of what I gave up, missing my life so badly that I think he really lovingly tried to compensate for a lot of that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0With money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:49]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:50]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, she does vocalize a lot the stuff that she misses. Sometimes it\u2019s very hurtful to hear that because I know I can\u2019t do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:01]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes she speculates on what her ex is making now, and I will never make that kind of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you dig deep, when you have brought up comparisons to your past life, what are you really saying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:26]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t like living in the Midwest. It never is going to feel like home. The four years I spent in high school, it doesn\u2019t make this my home. I want to know that in a few years, maybe we could move to another place and try something different. And I\u2019m unhappy a lot here. It\u2019s a different environment. It\u2019s hard to meet people. I guess, I think more that I\u2019m not happy here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think that\u2019s honest. Jimmy, that\u2019s no surprise to you, right? You\u2019ve heard it before in different ways?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:06]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And you can understand the crux of the difficulty here, which is, Dana, you\u2019re saying, I\u2019m not happy here. But first off, this is generally where Jimmy grew up in, if we are wide enough geographically. It\u2019s like somebody saying like, I don\u2019t like Indian food to me. I\u2019m just naturally insulted. I\u2019m also like, you have the worst palette in the world. You don\u2019t Indian food? What\u2019s wrong with you? Get out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:40]\u00a0But even more importantly, all jokes aside, Jimmy, who sees himself as a provider, he said, well, I can\u2019t afford for us to go to Northern California or to take these vacations. And so what is he to do about it? Spend a bunch of money on certain things just to reinforce to himself that I have money, even though it\u2019s racking up debt, and then avoid talking about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:17]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I still feel massively guilty because I have all this debt. Frequently, she has accused me of not acting like it bothers me, and it does bother me. I just don\u2019t show it like she does.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you show it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:33]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0She probably does even see it because it\u2019s usually at night when I can\u2019t sleep. What can I do? What can I get rid of? What can I sell? How can I make extra money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. I\u2019ll tell you, Jimmy, I knew you were poor growing up before you told me you were poor. I knew you were poor before Dana even told me you were poor. And one of the big clues was this idea that if I need more money, I\u2019ll just grind harder. I\u2019ll just work more. How many times have you said that in your life?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:18]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Frequently.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a common belief among people who were raised poor.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:24]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Because that\u2019s all we have, is our hands.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:27]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I had my college roommate pass away this year before she turned 60, and that threw me\u2013 when someone your age that you\u2019ve known forever, all of a sudden you\u2019re like, I\u2019m the same age. What if tomorrow I get\u2013 what that did for me was like, I don\u2019t want to spend it all now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:46]\u00a0What she would\u2019ve done if she had known, would she have gone on trips instead of investing her money? It\u2019s that really tough call now between living light, your Rich Life in the time that you have, not knowing how much that time is versus what if I lived to be 102 and I\u2019m in some decrepit nursing home? Her death really put me in this position to think about how to spend it when you have it at this age.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:15]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Dana lost her dad, her friend, and her favorite uncle all this year. Her desire to do things went in overdrive. So Dana, I have heard this many times. Let\u2019s sell everything and just start doing stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:39]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I would absolutely want to do that. I have no problem selling everything. I moved around so much. No. We sold stuff when we moved. You got a suitcase, maybe your teddy bear. We had to sell our dogs every time we moved. So I\u2019m not attached to things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:54]\u00a0As a interior designer, I love beautiful things. I love decorating houses. But I don\u2019t have to have that stuff. Things that are beautiful, it\u2019s almost like there\u2019s this, I can\u2019t describe it, but it\u2019s almost like this pain you get when you see something that\u2019s just magnificent.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:13]\u00a0But I would rather those experiences come, those things happen in the form of experiences. So I absolutely would sell everything tomorrow and just travel, but that\u2019s, I realize, unrealistic, that you can\u2019t do it all the time. Not in the position that we\u2019re in. But I do it, oh yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:36]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0She wants to live close to water, so I actually threw something out at her like a month ago and said, hey, there\u2019s the Carolinas. That\u2019s close to water.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. All right, so you\u2019re open to that. What do you think about that, Dana, just conceptually?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:52]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0The Carolinas or just the fact that he\u2019s willing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I already know you don\u2019t like the Carolinas, so let\u2019s just put that aside, the fact that he\u2019s willing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:02]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s wonderful.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll open up their conscious spending plan after this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:07]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a look at their numbers. Keep in mind that Jimmy has two kids at home, so packing up and leaving is not realistic today. Their assets are $637,000, which includes a house, three vehicles, and farm equipment. Investments, $636,000; savings, $35,000; debt, $448,000, including $77,000 of credit card debt, a $6,500 car, and $365,000 mortgage. Net worth, $859,700.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:43]\u00a0Dana, read off your combined gross monthly income, please. This number.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:48]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a018,782.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:53]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s deceiving.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on, before we go on and minimize it and tell me all the reasons it\u2019s not real, just everybody look straight at your cameras. Did you know that you make $225,000 per year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:07]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jimmy?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:09]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Thank you for maintaining my average of 50% of people don\u2019t know how much they make. All right, Dana, go ahead. Tell me all the reasons that it\u2019s not real. It\u2019s variable. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:20]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0To come up with a number, I just averaged out a year, but the money comes in very differently than that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:28]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve had a 40,000-dollar month. I\u2019ve had a 5,000-dollar month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:36]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0The total is right, but the way it breaks down monthly doesn\u2019t seem right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But it\u2019s still real.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:44]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s still real. Yes, it\u2019s still real. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dana, come on. This is like, when I\u2019m walking around and at the end of the week or the day, I look at my number of steps, and it\u2019s like some days are 6,000, some days are 22,000, and it averages it out, that number\u2019s still real.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:59]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a great example. Yes. I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You make $225,000 a year, which is a fantastic income, especially in the area that you live. Fixed costs are at 69%, however, we can see that there\u2019s a massive disparity here. The mortgage, which is being paid for in full by Jimmy, and Jimmy\u2019s fixed costs, just so everybody knows, are 97%. So basically, all of his income is going to fix costs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:32]\u00a0Specifically, I\u2019m going to highlight a couple of big ones. The mortgage, which is 2,279, nearly $2,000 a month in debt payments compared to Dana paying zero on the mortgage and on debt. Jimmy\u2019s paying 700 bucks for groceries. Dana\u2019s paying zero. Explain that to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:57]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s is not her debt, so she shouldn\u2019t have to pay that. And I just had paid the mortgage before.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You both live in the house that you, Jimmy, are paying the mortgage for, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:08]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Have you all discussed, like, how does it work?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:12]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0She pays for the play, and I try to pay for the not play.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:20]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0It has evolved. Down further, I pick up some other things that balance out in our minds, at least up till now, where I cover all the insurance for everything, house, cars, etc. I don\u2019t pay that monthly. I pay that in a lump sum. And then I picked up a lot of those smalls and the electrical, and I picked up the trash. And I hadn\u2019t seen it as an issue. Maybe it\u2019s because we\u2019ve just been doing that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is there any objection to Dana paying towards the mortgage at all? I\u2019m not saying you have to. I\u2019m just asking if there\u2019s any objection to it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:10]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Just hadn\u2019t thought about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Jimmy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:14]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I had never thought about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? It\u2019s like the biggest expense on here. What do you mean you\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:19]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I understand, but that\u2019s just how it wasn\u2019t at the old place. And even though it basically doubled, I just never thought about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:30]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I can contribute. We could split the mortgage.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Everybody go look at your CSP right now. Go get it right now at iwt.com\/csp. It\u2019s free. The rest of you, what the\u00a0fuck\u00a0is going on with you?\u00a0Why do you keep splitting up expenses like this? One of you paying the mortgage. The other paying for eating out. One paying for childcare and all kids expenses, which by the way almost always happens to be mom,\u00a0and the other paying for home renovations. Why? Stop doing this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:00]\u00a0When one of you is paying 97% towards fixed costs,\u00a0that\u2019s not fair. It also doesn\u2019t scale because certain expenses will get more expensive. And I know you\u2019re not sitting down to recalibrate on a monthly or quarterly basis, or who are we kidding? Ever. Anyway, let\u2019s keep going so I don\u2019t have a freaking heart attack on my own show.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You have four or so years of debt payments. And that\u2019s a lot of money. It\u2019s like 2000 bucks a month. Jimmy is spending essentially more than he makes every single month. He\u2019s down by around 1,000 bucks a month every single month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:35]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a problem. Meanwhile, Dana\u2019s like, ah, there are people around me dying, and I\u2019m ready to sell it all and hit the road. There\u2019s problem here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:48]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So without even getting into all the numbers, what do y\u2019all think is two or three potential solutions here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:02]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Selling it all and going on the road.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:05]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0See, I knew you\u2019d finally see my way. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:09]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, actually, one, it may even sound petty. I\u2019m glad she\u2019s finally paying quarterly taxes because I was covering the taxes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That makes no sense, but I\u2019m glad about that too. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:23]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Short of asking for help from Dana, I don\u2019t see any other solution<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s no solutions?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:29]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Other than asking for help from Dana.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Dana, you\u2019re in an interesting position here because your husband has 80 or so thousand dollars of credit card debt. Much of it accumulated in secret. You discovered it in secret 1, 2, 3 times, which feels particularly bad for historical reasons in the past relationship that you had.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:00]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And at the same time, you love talking about money. Money feels good to you. You grew up looking at stock charts. You want to go on vacation. And understandably, you don\u2019t want to wait until this debt is all paid off for you to begin traveling, etc. Okay. In fact, during screening you said, I make more. On paper, it looks like I should help him, but I don\u2019t feel like I should.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:34]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess because it had happened three times, I just thought maybe I\u2019m throwing good money after bad, because the second time I had to shuffle some things around, and we\u2019ll get to that, and tap out a loan from his 401k and make some changes. And I felt like I made it too easy and nothing changed. And so I\u2019m afraid that it could happen again. I know he doesn\u2019t want to. I know this time is really hard, but I\u2019m afraid to trust him with the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I understand. I understand. Just a hypothetical here, Jimmy. If Dana offered to pay like $50,000 of your credit card debt off, what would you say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:26]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I really don\u2019t know. I know how she feels about it, so I would be very hesitant to take it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:35]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I really don\u2019t want to lose Dana.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:43]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Being divorced after 30 years of marriage and a whole family and life, I\u2019m holding on to that kind of just in case. If I put everything in and I know I\u2019m supposed to be all in, I get that, but it\u2019s scary.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They seem stuck. So far, we cut $150 from their groceries and removed two lines from their cell phone bill, saving another 150 bucks, but that\u2019s not\u00a0going to\u00a0solve the debt problem. I urged them to think bigger, and that\u2019s when things got even more uncomfortable.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:17]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, looking back up at the assets, I think some of that farm equipment can go.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, talk about that. What is farm equipment first of all? What are we talking about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:31]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Lots of things that run on wheels.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait a minute. That\u2019s how I would describe it, a guy who may have never been on a farm before.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:40]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, there\u2019s things out there with the steers apparently, they require a lot of things to feed them, so he can sell all that stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:50]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0So part of the change is we have some ground, and I\u2019m seeding that to alfalfa, which is a consumable for cattle and horses and stuff that people like to pay stupid money for. So I can\u2019t really get rid of this stuff because I\u2019m shifting it to something that\u2019s going to make money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much is the equipment if you were just to sell it tomorrow?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:10]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a012, $15,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Am I the only one?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:15]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let 12. Let\u2019s just be conservative. 12,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:19]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0He has a collection, I didn\u2019t understand it, but that\u2019s just of these farm signs. They\u2019re like from companies, and they\u2019re big. Okay. I know I\u2019m doing this wrong. They\u2019re these big signs that\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:32]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so if you were to go past a tractor dealership, there are lighted signs. I have eight of them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does it say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:44]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0One says Gleaner. One says White. One says AGCO. One says Gehl. And then I also have older when they use metal signs. I have some back that are close to 100 years old.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0These are like collectibles?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Actually, yes. That\u2019s what she\u2019s getting ready to say. She knows much I absolutely love these signs. I used to have the lighted signs on my pole bar where I used to live.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s okay. It\u2019s okay. How much are they worth? That\u2019s all I want to know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:12]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0It depends. In the area of 10 to $15,000, depending on who\u2019s there. And they\u2019re gone or going to be gone.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They are?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:22]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re going to be on auction.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh. All right. Great. 10,000 for the signs. We\u2019re at $22,000, right?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:33]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:36]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0And there\u2019s more. He has\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? Tell me.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:39]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0All the pedal cars. I didn\u2019t know about them either. They\u2019re like little baby tractors.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:44]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re going to the auction too, though. They\u2019re rhino tractors.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:48]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. Okay, here\u2019s a crazy thought.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:52]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0But it\u2019s self-serving. We have 10 acres. We don\u2019t need 10 acres at all.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:01]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s a second road that goes back to the barn, and instead of planting alfalfa, I would just sell off. I don\u2019t know enough. This isn\u2019t my thing, but I don\u2019t see why we have all this land if we don\u2019t have steers. I know it\u2019s hard because people in Michigan, in this area, they like to have acres of stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just say the idea.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:23]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Sell it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Amazing. Don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a good idea, but I love that you propose that. So let\u2019s just catalog so far what we\u2019ve heard so far because we started off with $150 a month saved on groceries, which I applaud. Great job. Nice. But now we\u2019re talking about heavy equipment.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:42]\u00a0We\u2019re talking about $10,000 in signs and potentially some acreage which may or may not be available to sell. This is big money. Jimmy, I want toa check in with you. Let\u2019s just start one by one, and then let\u2019s talk about the whole thing. Selling the signs you said is already happening. Correct?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:05]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, great. The farm equipment, what do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:09]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, after my initial cost of about $1,200, I will make six to $8,000 a year off the hay as long as we live here. I don\u2019t have an initial cost after that. Now, it will go down some because it won\u2019t be as productive on year 7 as it is on year 2. So if I sell that equipment, I no longer have the ability to make that income.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a06,000 a year roughly?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:44]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0For four or five years, something like that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:48]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So in your estimation, you\u2019ve already spent money on the equipment. It\u2019s about to start making the most money that it\u2019s going to make. So keep the equipment, make the roughly 6k a year.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:03]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0And then when I\u2019m done, I get rid of it. These piece of equipment are devalued as far as they\u2019re going to devalue. The tractor is\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I got you.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:11]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a067 years old.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What about gas and maintenance and stuff for these things?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:16]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0About a hundred gallons a year for that. Non road diesel\u2019s about $3.25 right now.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. It\u2019s not much. I understand all the math, and I understand the logic about hay. It\u2019s about to start making money. What do you think about Dana\u2019s suggestion to sell the equipment? Are you a yes, or are you a no, or are you a maybe?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:48]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m going to jump to the property thing because I don\u2019t know that we would be allowed to split the property.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:55]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. Maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s play out both scenarios. Let\u2019s say you are, and let\u2019s say you\u2019re not. Let\u2019s talk about all options here.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:04]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0So if we were to sell the property, other than one piece of equipment to clear snow, because it snows a lot here, I could sell most everything.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:15]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you struggling with feeling like that\u2019s failing again?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:28]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I know what I can make on that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:33]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0No. I mean having to give up something that your family does, that you\u2019ve done, that your grandpa did, and then to not even dabble in it, does that feel like you are losing some heritage?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:49]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe, but it also sounds boring not to have that stuff to do.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Boring means what?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:57]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not being overly productive. I don\u2019t know. Maybe this goes back to that hardworking thing that you were talking about earlier. I don\u2019t know. I like to have stuff to do outside, and these are all outside things.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:13]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s plenty to do without doing those. And then what about the fun things you want to do? So I would go so far as to say, and again, it\u2019s me, we can make a lot of money on this house and property. We got a phenomenal deal on this. The selling amount, I\u2019m not considering how much the other costs are, but easily 250,000 profit.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Dana, Dana, Dana, look at Jimmy\u2019s face. Dana, look at Jimmy\u2019s face. What do you see? Is he hearing you at all?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:46]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I\u2019m hearing everything she\u2019s saying.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you really hearing it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:50]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I am hearing what she\u2019s saying, but I\u2019m also going to the, and then we could buy a house that costs just as much some place else.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:01]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I know there\u2019s a school district thing, but the rental idea makes me think\u2013 it\u2019s just till she graduates. I know that\u2019s another five years. On the other hand, maybe someone\u2019s going to tell me that this property and this house will continue to increase in value, and that\u2019s not a good idea. The market\u2019s different everywhere, and I haven\u2019t given any thought to it. And it\u2019s disruptive. I understand that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What just happened in that back and forth? Jimmy, what did you hear Dana saying?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:38]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s do something different. That may not be what she said, but that\u2019s what I heard.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:43]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:45]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, you got to understand Dana, though. She\u2019s either full throttle, or she\u2019s off the gas.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:51]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0But I could change. I think we need something that brings us together because everything has been pushing us apart. I think of us as like a Venn diagram, and that little intersection is so much smaller than I thought we were going to be. And I want to see it bigger.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jimmy, do you agree with Dana\u2019s sense of urgency?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:20]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0Not as much, but I also haven\u2019t had the losses she\u2019s had.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:26]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0And by saying that, that\u2019s not saying I\u2019m unwilling to look at it that way. I\u2019m probably going to lay in bed tonight. Well, how much of this is, like you said, legacy? You didn\u2019t use those words, but that\u2019s what it is, legacy, expectations. But if I really want the end results that I say I do, I don\u2019t know. I think we ought to look into seeing if we can sell the property<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s actually a lot of options. They could trim their fixed costs, which they should do anyway. Dana could pay for some of the mortgage. They could sell the farm equipment, the steers and the collectibles. They could sell off part of the farm, but that is where we hit a snag. We got stuck. I couldn\u2019t get the conversation to go any further.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:32]\u00a0<strong>Dana:<\/strong>\u00a0I learned from our conversation that I need to really work on developing a new version of Rich Life and not trying to get the old version to fit into the new one. And that I\u2019m also going to look into the postnup, and I think that will just give me a level of comfort. All in all, it was really helpful and worth it all, so thank you so much.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:57]\u00a0<strong>Jim:<\/strong>\u00a0So what I learned, I need to look outside the box, look for bigger things, different things that I can sell and not lock myself into something. What surprised me is honestly just how personal Ramit is. I didn\u2019t know what to expect. Yes, I watch videos. I\u2019ve listened to podcasts, listened to the book, but you just never know until you actually talk to somebody.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:22]\u00a0This is actually a lot of fun. What I\u2019m going to do is I went out and took stock in everything I have out in the barn. And I found a number of things I can sell that should add up to about $6,000, and going to get that sold and put it to the debt and then do more digging. Thanks.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me just tell you what I would do. I would have a series of clear conversations about the Rich Life. I would use the IWT Journal, which would help them get\u00a0out of\u00a0their heads and really design a rich life with specificity that excited them both. Based on what they told me, I would simplify so much. I would sell all the farm equipment, collectibles, anything around the property, and if possible, part of the property itself.\u00a0Then pay off the debt immediately.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:14]\u00a0Next, I would recalibrate the relationship, including having Jimmy take on more financial responsibility, and I would split the expenses much more fairly. If I were Dana, I might consider a postnup. And finally, I would start making moves in anticipation of when the kids are old enough to leave.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:30] That might mean selling the entire place and renting now, using that money to invest, or it might mean building up a larger savings account. And with a few years of planning, they truly could live their Rich Lives.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jim and Dana are 58, five years into their second marriages, and coping with changes in their new lifestyle in different ways. Jim is set on providing as he follows patterns from his past, hiding tens of thousands in debt. Dana daydreams of her past in California\u2014and the lifetime of alimony she passed up. 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