{"id":118909,"date":"2024-05-21T12:29:08","date_gmt":"2024-05-21T16:29:08","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118909"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:29:48","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:29:48","slug":"157-adrienne-rob","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/157-adrienne-rob\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 157. \u201cWe spent $80,000 more than we made last year\u201d (Part 1)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe spent $80,000 more than we made last year\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/6uF06-cUIoI\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/7fSDLUEwwp5QtBUpIE2hpF?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Adrienne and Rob are 59 and 62, and they are overcome with worry over whether or not they\u2019ve amassed enough wealth to live comfortably, and apply Rich Life principles, in their retirement years. Adrienne\u2019s head is in the clouds\u2014dreamy and full of color. Rob lives in his (physical!) spreadsheets.<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Claritin | Visit\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/claritin.com\/\">https:\/\/claritin.com<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0right now for a discount so you can get allergy relief and live Claritin Clear.<\/p>\n<p>Babbel | For our listeners only, get 60% off your Babbel subscription at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/babbel.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/Babbel.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Mint Mobile | To get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/mintmobile.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/mintmobile.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Links mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/158-adrienne-rob\">\u201cWe have $2M, why can\u2019t we retire?\u201d (Part 2)<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve been following Suze Orman\u2019s advice on investing, and it was a disaster. And once we started to work with the FIRE Movement, we thought, oh, well, we won\u2019t be able to retire early.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:12]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0We tell people that our money story is that 18 years ago we were $60,000 in debt. Now we have a $2 million net worth. Things have shifted, and that\u2019s why I reached out. We spent more money last year than we ever have before by 50% more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you enjoy it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:34]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And then I get scared later.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:36]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0We don\u2019t have that much more time left.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, I\u2019m depressed. We\u2019re on our way to that old graveyard called death. So anyway, what do you want to do in our elderly age? God, damn.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meet\u00a0Adrienne\u00a0and Rob.\u00a0Adrienne\u2019s 59. Rob is 62, and they\u2019re wondering if they will have enough\u2013 enough to retire, enough to live the lifestyle they want. Now, they went through quite a journey. They used to be in lots of debt. They made a plan, they paid it off, and now they have accumulated money. But they are scared, especially Rob, who admits that he\u2019s been scared of money his entire life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:17]\u00a0In today\u2019s discussion, our sponsor is Facet. And as part of my conversation with Rob and\u00a0Adrienne, I asked Facet advisors to take a very close look at their numbers so that we could get them some specific answers on if they will have enough and what their life will look like going forward.\u00a0As we start this discussion with Rob and\u00a0Adrienne, something really interesting happens with one of my first questions. It\u2019s a little odd. See if you can spot it<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:46]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Money has been my purview in our relationship. I pay the bills, although now they\u2019re automated, thanks to you, but I show her where the money is every couple of months, so she knows how to get at all the accounts.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:00]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0But it\u2019s my thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:01]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I just want to say that I started this money journey. I\u2019m the one that was the catalyst for us going on a money journey. Before we were married, I was $35,000 in debt, and I was a massage therapist. Math is definitely not my zone of genius, but I decided one day just to pick up a Suze Orman book and just read it and start to understand what to do because I was in all this debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:39]\u00a0So I had gotten myself out of $35,000 worth of debt. Rob and I decided to get married, and Rob said to me on the phone, I\u2019m in $60,000 worth of debt. Do you want me to declare bankruptcy? Because it was the last year you could do it in a good way. And I said, no, let\u2019s pay it off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:02]\u00a0And so then I moved from California to Washington DC, where he was living, and we just paid it off. So I just want to be clear that I started this journey. I\u2019m the one that started it. I told Rob I wasn\u2019t going to marry him unless you watch Suze Orman with me every Saturday night.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long did you watch Suze Orman together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:25]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Nine years. Every episode.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Cool.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:28]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I was shocked because I knew that since money and math is not my zone of genius, I was like, oh, I can understand concepts, and it took me a long time, but if I kept showing up, the concepts became clearer to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Amazing. Great lesson for all of us. Money is not this mythical thing that only some of us have access to. All of us can become good at money. Adrienne, I\u2019m curious. Why was it important for you to tell me that just now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:02]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I don\u2019t think it\u2019s fair to say that my head is not in our money situation, that I know nothing about it. I do know what\u2019s going on, basically. I guess that\u2019s what I wanted to explain, is that I do have some idea of what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So Adrienne, what would you say your role is in the relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:28]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0In terms of money, I think my role is to stay the course with Rob to keep us rowing in the same direction. I don\u2019t know. I think also maybe just to keep everybody calm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you second guessing yourself right now? I feel like there\u2019s a lot of self-edit editing going on. What is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:51]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess I\u2019m feeling like maybe I haven\u2019t been as involved in our money as I was originally when we first started the journey. And so I feel a little bit bad about that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:07]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0We did such a good job at saving, and I felt like I was proud of us. So I wasn\u2019t really as concerned about it, but recently Rob brought up to me this idea that maybe we\u2019re not doing as good as I think we\u2019re doing. So I guess I don\u2019t really know. Maybe I\u2019m just assuming that we\u2019re okay, and maybe we\u2019re actually not okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:37]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I\u2019m going to pull this out right here. I\u2019ve got 18 years\u2019 worth of yellow sheets, which is our archaic way of determining our net worth.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:48]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0And we used to do this monthly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:51]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Because that\u2019s how we started.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:54]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob, when you were filling this application out, where were you sitting?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:00]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0At the same desk that I\u2019m sitting at right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. What was going through your mind at that moment when you decided to write in and apply to speak to me?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:12]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say that my big issue has been worry, concern. Being in debt at 44 years old was not a good feeling, and I have obsessed, I would say, in the last 18 years to dig us out of debt and put us into a place where we could retire potentially.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:31]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0And so I have been concerned since last year, which was the very first time we did not save money. Last year we spent 80,000 more than we made. In spite of that, our net worth went up by $88,000, which was because of the investments and how well the stock market did last year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:58]\u00a0It was very surrealistic for me to be in a situation where every single year, for the last 15 years, we have been raking it in. And then all of a sudden, my business has dropped off. We had some extra expenses last year. And the combination, if the stock market had broken even, or whatever, if our portfolio had broken even, we would\u2019ve been 80,000 in the hole. So that\u2019s the real catalyst for writing in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Early clues. Did you catch\u00a0them? Rob is a worrier, and they\u2019re actually both worried about having enough for retirement since they are 59 and 62 years old. Last year, they spent more than they made for the first time, and yet their net worth increased. This is because of their investments. This really worries Rob.\u00a0Actually, it would worry most people. And I noticed these very interesting dynamics as I asked\u00a0Adrienne\u00a0what her financial role was and she got quite defensive. Keep that in mind.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:59]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick break for our sponsors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:02]\u00a0Back to my conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:04]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I had just come home from being out with some friends, and I had paid for their dinner or their lunch, and Rob was like, why did this cost so much? I said, well, I thought we were doing Ramit\u2019s thing, and I wanted to be more generous in our Rich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on. How did he know that you paid for everyone\u2019s lunch?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:30]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0He looked at the credit card.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, like he logged onto the app or something like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:36]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you walk in the door, and he\u2019s like, hold on a second. He just logged onto the app?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:41]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0But he had done it before I walked in the door.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, okay. Hold on. Do you have notifications set up where every time someone charges it gets sent to the phone?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:50]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you literally manually log in between the time she paid the bill and came home?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:58]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess so. I don\u2019t keep track of how many times I log in. It\u2019s way too many times, I\u2019m sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:03]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it was the next morning.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did he say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:06]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0He said, why did this cost so much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much was it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:12]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0$79.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. I\u2019m not laughing at the amount. I\u2019m laughing because I\u2019ve seen your CSP. Remember the phrase I have, like focus less on three-dollar questions and more on 30,000-dollar questions?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:29]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So $79. What place did you go to, Adrienne?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:33]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I went to a place called Mount Bakery.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s bakery. Okay, great. So you paid for a few friends. What\u2019d you say? I\u2019ll get this one, something like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:42]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why\u2019d you do that, by the way?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:45]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I did that because we had been looking at what does it mean to have a Rich Life? And I thought in my mind it would be fun to be more generous. I thought this would be great. I\u2019m going to take them out for lunch and have a great lunch together. So I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did it feel when you paid the bill?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:11]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I felt happy about it. I felt like my heart could be open to people I love. And I felt like I got to experience a really beautiful lunch with some people, and I just really enjoyed it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love that. I love it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:27]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Was it that? No, it was that night, actually, and Rob said, why did this cost so much? And I said, I thought we were changing what we were doing. I thought we were going to start having our Rich Life. And that was part of what I wanted in my Rich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What happened next?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:51]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I think he just had a lot of fear reaction. It\u2019s like, not fair. Why are you out there just spending money? I think that was really the gist of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:08]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it was different because I was just ushering in this new idea around what would it look like to have a Rich Life, and I hadn\u2019t expressed it. I hadn\u2019t said, hey, I think what I want to do is start being more generous. I probably could have expressed that earlier instead of just gone and done what I wanted to do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:36]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I said, did you go to Mount Bakery to spend $79? I asked the question. I don\u2019t think I was accusing anybody of anything. I was just trying to find out why something that I thought 20 bucks would cost 79 bucks. That\u2019s all.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What do you remember her saying?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:53]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0She said she took her friends out to lunch. And it\u2019s funny. There are so many instances that I look away. That weekend Adrienne was gone 12 hours a day, three days in a row, out with her friends in a dance conference. I was alone at home worried about our money. When I think about it now, I was in a scared place. So that\u2019s why that conversation occurred in the first place.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. Okay. How did the conversation end?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:27]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say that at the end of it, I felt pretty bad about what had happened. Rob usually forgets about things just like that, and it just took me a couple of days to feel okay around what happened.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:48]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I felt like I didn\u2019t have agency in our relationship around money. And I think part of that is because I haven\u2019t really made any money since the pandemic. So I\u2019ve been a person who isn\u2019t contributing in terms of our finances since the pandemic happened. I was a massage therapist, and I stopped at that point. And so I was feeling like I don\u2019t have a lot of agency in terms of our finances that\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Like you tried to do something, you spent a little bit of money, and then it caused this disagreement, blow up fight. And what did that feel like to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:39]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I felt like Rob is really in charge of the money because he is the one that is looking at the money. He is the one that is making the money. He is the one that\u2019s doing all of the things around the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is he in charge of the money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:56]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I think in lots of ways he is. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What are the ways that he\u2019s not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:06]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. He\u2019s in charge of the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How does that feel to you to say? It doesn\u2019t feel like super easy for you to say. At least that\u2019s my perception.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:17]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I felt for most of our time together that we built this together, that I started this money journey that I wanted it for us. I just thought let\u2019s give it a go, because we started in our 40s, and I didn\u2019t know what we could accomplish. I just thought, let\u2019s just see what we can accomplish. And I was always contributing as well because I was making money. So I think it shifted a lot in terms of our power dynamics, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It never feels easy when there\u2019s a recalibration of roles. Adrienne, would you agree with that? And if so, do you think that it\u2019s still difficult for you to recalibrate the financial part of your relationship with Rob?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:15]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I think it\u2019s definitely difficult to recalibrate. I am curious to see if you feel like we\u2019re still heading in the right direction around our money, because if it\u2019s important for me to start making more money or just me to start making money again, I\u2019m certainly willing to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:41]\u00a0I think I\u2019ve definitely struggled sometimes with worth, and what it means. I don\u2019t believe that people\u2019s worth is money. I think we all have intrinsic worth, no matter what amount of money you have. But I think our society at large does often equate money with worth. And so I think I fall prey to that once in a while as well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you mean because you\u2019re not earning money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:17]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Partly because I\u2019m not earning money, and partly because I\u2019ve always earned a lot less.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:24]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Well, I appreciate you sharing that. You know what? I agree with both things you said. We should not be measured by how much we make, and yet society loves to prioritize numbers in a spreadsheet. How much is our paycheck? How\u2019s it stack up to somebody else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:44]\u00a0What\u2019s quantifiable? And people are a little surprised to hear the money guy saying this, but there\u2019s so much more to a Rich Life than how much you have in the bank or certainly how much your paycheck is.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u00a0got to\u00a0say I totally understand\u00a0Adrienne\u2019s responses about her money role in their relationship. When she first said it, it sounded defensive. But now I think we can all see her perspective. She\u2019s the one who actually came to their marriage and demanded that Rob pay off his debt. She helped drive that, and now they did it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:19]\u00a0They\u2019ve actually paid off tons of debt, and they have accumulated a large net worth, which is incredibly impressive. And yet, because she doesn\u2019t earn as much money on paper, she acknowledges that he\u2019s the money guy in their relationship. And it\u2019s not fair that in America we see the amount of dollars as the supreme worth of someone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:42]\u00a0You can be earning $0 and still be an amazing partner, an amazing parent, or all the above. This is why I say that money is a small but important part of a\u00a0Rich Life. It\u2019s not everything. I went back to Rob now to ask him about that 79-dollar charge at the bakery.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:01]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s okay. But if I am at home alone feeling scared about money, then it\u2019s not okay. Then we have a disconnect. And so if I\u2019m worried about whether our money is going to last 30 years, I\u2019m thinking about that, then I would say, yeah, taking a bunch of people out who I don\u2019t know because you want to feel generous doesn\u2019t feel that good to me. Because I\u2019m sitting at home alone thinking about this money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long have you been worried about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:39]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say I\u2019ve been worried about money for about 57 years. As soon as I became old enough, I really thought that our family was going to run out of money for food. My mom was a saver. My dad was a spender. She was scared, and I grew up scared, thinking our money was going to run out, even though that wasn\u2019t true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:02]\u00a0She told me, in her words, that she was terrified. She said, your father would go out and buy these things that we didn\u2019t need, and I was terrified. I remember writing something for school about how I felt like we were not going to have money for food.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s go back to you being 5, 6, 7 young. What do you remember your parents saying about money around the house?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:30]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0There were probably some arguments, but there was no actual physical violence or anything like that. It was just something I could feel. My dad was a domineering figure, a scary person, moody person in the house, so we all were on our toes, walking around on eggshells, watch out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:52]\u00a0You don\u2019t want to engage dad in a bad mood kind of thing. I don\u2019t remember. I think he liked to be a big shot, and so he would take me to nice restaurants when I was young. I ate in some very nice New York City restaurants as a kid in the \u201960s and the \u201970s.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Did you like it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:12]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we loved it. Because then our dad was paying attention to us. He got to play the role of the big shot. Yeah, it was fun.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s move forward a little bit to your adolescence, talking 12 to 16.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:22]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0My parents separated when I was 15.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:27]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0They had a series of discussions and then announced they were separating. What I do remember about money at around that era was that we were renting a three-bedroom apartment. I have two brothers. And a lot of my friends lived in the houses, and their parents owned the houses, say a half a mile or a mile away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:47]\u00a0And so I was never really sure where we stood with money, because if you\u2019re comparing yourself to your friends whose parents own a home, we\u2019re living in an apartment\u2013 it\u2019s a nice apartment, and I\u2019m not complaining about it at all, but that\u2019s what I remember about our finances back then.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0As you got older, as you became an adult, did you go to college?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:11]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How\u2019d you pay for that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:13]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Tuition was much cheaper back in the late \u201970s and early \u201980s.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, wait, wait. Just to enrage everybody listening to this, go ahead and tell everyone how much tuition was back then. Just tell them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:26]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, my first semester at San Diego State in the fall of 1981, tuition was $205.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:36]\u00a0Now, in couple of years before I transferred, I went out of state on the East coast and my dad paid for it. And it was more expensive because it was out state tuition, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was that like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:50]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t remember the price.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you say $400, I\u2019m going to lose my mind right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:54]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I don\u2019t remember what it was.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It was crazy. It was 400 bucks a semester.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:58]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I don\u2019t know what it was, but my dad at that point was paying alimony, and he wanted me to go to college, but was probably concerned about the finances. That\u2019s why he wanted me to move to California, where he was living and pay the 205.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Got you. In his later part of his life, what was his relationship with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:22]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0That is a hard story.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Just to point out, before you begin your answer, everybody, just notice Adrienne\u2019s nod there. Adrienne clearly clued in on this story. This has clearly been discussed between the two of you, I\u2019m sure. Okay. Go ahead, Rob.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:36]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. My dad who\u2019s a spender, remarried a woman who was a bigger spender.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:43]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0And that is a cautionary tale. He was making good money when he married her, but at some point, later on in his life, he stopped making that kind of money, and she didn\u2019t stop spending what he was spending. And so they had some financial issues in his later years. There was some real regret. If I get into the psychology of my stepmom, this could take a long time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0She still around?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:12]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I believe she is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You don\u2019t have a relationship with her?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:15]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I do not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Did your dad tell you these things as he was older? Like, oh, I\u2019m worried about money. What\u2019d he say to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:25]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say that he got sick when he was 59 and a half, major bypass, this and that. He lived to 72. He confided in me that he wished he hadn\u2019t sold his business right after he got sick. The business was a cash cow. And so the last 10 years were rough because once he sold the business, he never made the income again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:48]\u00a0And so they probably fought. I can\u2019t imagine that it was easy, and there was some serious arguments over insurance policies, and so on. That\u2019s why I don\u2019t have a relationship with my stepmom anymore.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Lot of similarities, Rob, between your dad and you. How often have you thought that you\u2019re going to die at age 72?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:13]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve thought about that because I read somewhere that if your parents don\u2019t live to be a ripe old age, you don\u2019t have a model for living to that, living that long.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:26]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think I\u2019m going to die at 72 because I think I\u2019ve had a less stressful life. I\u2019ve really worked pretty hard on my emotional wellbeing.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What really stands out to me here is the role of myths and stories in families. Almost every one of us has a story that has been passed down through our family tree. Maybe it was about an uncle who was an alcoholic, or an entrepreneur who made a bunch of money and gambled it all away, or someone who immigrated to a different country and paid for all her brothers and sisters to join her.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:05]\u00a0Those stories are passed down in whispers and phrases. People will say things like, just like your aunt, or she reminds me so much of Uncle Mark,\u00a0or\u00a0we all know what happens when you make a bunch of money too fast. These stories are repeated over and over until you start to believe that they are unquestionably true, and then they calcify into invisible scripts which are beliefs so deep you don\u2019t even realize they\u2019re there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:31]\u00a0If you are trying to get good with money, you will eventually have to interrogate your own family beliefs about money. One good way to do this, if you want a shortcut right now, is to simply jot down the stories you\u2019ve heard about family members in your life. What lessons were passed down about other family members and their relationships with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:50]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick break to hear from our sponsors<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:54]\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to our conversation with Rob and\u00a0Adrienne<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your dad had a business. You have a business. Your dad worried about money. You worry about money. Your dad had a new wife who spent a lot. You have your first wife, Adrienne. Do you worry about Adrienne\u2019s spending?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:19]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I do, but not because she\u2019s like my stepmom. My stepmom would spend $1,000 a night in a hotel. Adrienne\u2019s not like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What about $80 at a bakery?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:33]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Generally not. I think we have a rule. Anything less than $100, we don\u2019t have to discuss.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait a minute. When did you come up with that rule?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:41]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve had that for a while.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, 80 is less than 100, so how do you reconcile that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:49]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t falter for spending the $80 without asking. I think I was just feeling bad that I was home alone worried about money at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Fair enough. Although, Rob, this whole conversation began with me asking you how long you\u2019ve been worried about money. You said 57 years. So when you say I was at home worried about money, that\u2019s the behavior you\u2019ve become accustomed to for decades, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:17]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you\u2019re breathing oxygen, you\u2019re worried about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:20]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0And that\u2019s why I applied to come onto your podcast.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. You\u2019ve detected that fear from Rob about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:27]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does he say that makes you think he\u2019s fearful of money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:32]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Pretty much every single year, especially when we owned our house previously, he would sit me down, and he would look at me very intently, and he would say, my business is not going well. Things are going terribly. This is not going to work out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:58]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0And then I would say, okay, well, let\u2019s move to a lower cost place, or let\u2019s sell the house, or whatever feels good to you, because I want you to feel comfortable. Then he would make a ton of money, and everything would be okay again. We\u2019ve done that for years, and now I just think of it as the weather, like it\u2019s going to happen. He\u2019s going to tell me about how scared he is and how freaked out he is, and then generally everything\u2019s going to be okay again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How many years have you done that for?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:30]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Quite a few. Since he had his business, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How many years? 1, 5, 10? How many?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:36]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a015.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:36]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a015.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:38]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a015 years in business.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:40]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0The funny thing is when he first started his business, he was like, the business isn\u2019t going to work out. And then it just became really successful. And like, fine, whatever.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Adrienne, do you like this dance that Rob does with you regarding money and his business?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:02]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t love it. It brings fear into my body, and I start to feel like\u2013 I look at the numbers, and I feel confident in general because I know that Rob is better at math than I am. I start to wonder about my sanity and think, do I not know how much money we have? Am I wrong?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:29]\u00a0I go back to, I feel super grateful for what we have. I bring myself back to, I feel really grateful. We have what we have. I know we\u2019re going to eat tonight. I know everything\u2019s okay. I know we\u2019re okay. So I just start to bring myself back to, there\u2019s nothing we can\u2019t handle.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Adrienne, are you religious?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:53]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m a spiritual person.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you for helping me understand. Rob, what do you think about Adrienne\u2019s characterization of this dance that you do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:04]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree that it\u2019s cyclical, that sometimes I feel scared about money and sometimes I don\u2019t. It\u2019s changed over time. Fifteen years ago, when we were in debt, I worried constantly about paying the debt off, balance transfers, robbing Peter to pay Paul, all kinds of things like that. Now the fear has shifted into a more long-term, low-level fear of, is this money going to last 30 years for us?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. And Rob you are 62 years old. Hey, Rob, when do you get to stop worrying about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:46]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh boy. I hope right after this conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s it? Just one phone call?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:53]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Can you wave the magic wand? I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I\u2019m curious. If it just took one call, and I hope that I can help\u2013 that\u2019s my goal\u2013 why not have this conversation with somebody else 14 years ago?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:13]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, 14 years ago, looking back on it seemed like there really was something to worry about. If you owe $60,000 to the banks, and your income is not that high like it was 16 years ago, that\u2019s scary. To me, thinking back on it, it feels scary.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you scared right now?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Notice the story Rob tells himself. He\u2019s been worrying about money for 57 years, and for the last 15 years, he sat\u00a0Adrienne\u00a0down and told her, \u201cThis is\u00a0going to\u00a0be a horrible year.\u201d And when I ask him about that, his answer is, \u201cYes, I agree that it\u2019s cyclical.\u201d Cyclical. Nice choice of words. It would be hilarious if it wasn\u2019t so serious.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:56]\u00a0See, Rob thinks that this conversation will change his feelings about money. And deep down, I suspect that Rob\u2013 in fact, Rob and\u00a0Adrienne\u00a0believe that if I show them some magic number, they will feel better. Well, I am\u00a0going to\u00a0show them numbers. I will answer their question about whether they will have enough, and I\u2019ll answer it very precisely.\u00a0But I can tell you that numbers alone rarely change feelings.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you think that everyone worries about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:23]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0No. People might have more faith than I do that everything\u2019s going to work out okay. I come from a family where disaster was right around the corner or expected right around the corner kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your mom, what is her relationship with money now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:46]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0She is still scared. Look at her face.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I see that, Adrienne.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:52]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Adrienne will tell you that my mom is\u2013 my mom has a million dollars in a Vanguard account and still likes to shop at the Dollar Store.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What do you think of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:05]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0It seems crazy. She\u2019s 83 years old.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:10]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0It seems like she can afford to fly first class, shop at any fancy store she wants. But her goal is to leave money for her grandkids and her kids. I can respect that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob, you have a lot more than that in your investment account. Wouldn\u2019t you say you were a little concerned about $80 at the bakery?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:34]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. I think it got wrapped up into feeling alone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Adrienne, when I asked Rob, what is his mom\u2019s current relationship with money, you really lit up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:45]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I just know what she\u2019s like. She is interesting because she can be really generous. She\u2019ll buy us dinner and all of those kinds of things, but she\u2019ll drive way out of the way to go to Costco to get gas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:03]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Because it\u2019s the cheapest gas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why does she do it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:06]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0She just thinks it\u2019s the best way to live. And I remember she was telling me that she wanted to take all this money out of the market because the market had gone up and she wanted to take all this money out and take it off the table. It was like this gambling thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:27]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I said, why would you do that? Leave it in there? It\u2019s going to go up and down. Why even worry about it? Just let it go up and down. I Think Rob brought different qualities to our relationship in terms of it\u2019s like an expansion and a contraction.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:48]\u00a0There\u2019s these moments where Rob is so confident about, we\u2019re going to be fine, and we\u2019ve got this, and we\u2019ve done such a great job, and I\u2019m so grateful, and everything\u2019s going great, to this plummet of everything\u2019s going terribly. It\u2019s not going to work out. We\u2019ve got to quit spending. So it\u2019s a roller coaster, say, effect.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you remember the words that he used to describe his dad?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:22]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What were the words? Started emotional something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:26]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, walking on eggshells with his dad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. What else? The emotional instability, something that. Any this sound familiar?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:37]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We\u2019ve got a little bit of that going on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s different, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:41]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob, from what I heard, you\u2019re maybe not the angry guy, but walking on eggshells, like, oh-oh, Rob is here with his beginning of the year freak out about money. I\u2019m going to walk on eggshells. I\u2019m going to learn how to deal with him, because it\u2019s that time of the year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:59]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:00]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then the ups and the downs you mentioned, Adrienne, it affects you. It\u2019s quite negative for you. It even makes you question your sanity, is how you put it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:10]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob, what do you think about this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:14]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I apologize for doing that to you. I\u2019d be happy not to do that anymore.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not here to blame you, for sure. I don\u2019t even think Adrienne\u2019s blaming you. I just want to see if you see that connection and if you agree with that connection.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:33]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I would agree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Have you ever made that connection before?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:40]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe not quite this clearly.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There are some obvious parallels here between Rob and his dad. I wonder what that might mean for the rest of the money dynamic that we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0talk about.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:51]\u00a0And now a quick message from our sponsors<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:55]\u00a0Listen now as I ask\u00a0Adrienne\u00a0about her family.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:59]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0My parents had a very separate relationship with money. My dad was also the one in charge of the money. He also made the majority of the money, and he was also very terrified about money as well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:18]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0He grew up in the Great Depression. He was 13 years older than my mom, so he grew up in a generation completely different than hers. He just had a lot of fears around it. We would go out to dinner, say, for example, and my brother loved to order the most expensive thing on the menu, not because of the price, but because he was like, I love shrimp. So he would order the shrimp, and I would look at the menu and, I know what was going on in my dad\u2019s mind and his heart, and I would try to order the least expensive thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:00]\u00a0Yeah, that was a lot. That was going on with how they felt around money. And my mom started to make her own money. All of her money went to fun, went to all the fun things. If we were going to go on vacation, my mom paid for vacation. If we were going to do anything fun, my mom paid for all of the fun. They kept their money completely separately, and my dad paid for everything else, I think, basically.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Pretty unusual for that time, right? That they would be keeping money separate. What do you make of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:39]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0They knew they were having a lot of fights, and that was their way of resolving the fights.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh wow. So they were having fights, and they said, as a result, we\u2019re going to keep money separate. You do your thing over here, and I\u2019m responsible for this thing over here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:55]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0My dad\u2019s a really interesting guy because my dad has a big heart, and he always made sure the servers got a good tip, and he always made sure that people around him felt a lot of his love and light with that. But with us, he was constantly in fear.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:23]\u00a0And it was also very difficult to know what was real because my mom would say like, oh, he is just being insane. And my dad would be like, nobody\u2019s listening to me. I don\u2019t know. So there was just a lot of\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I ask a question?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:41]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You mentioned, it\u2019s hard to know what was real.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:46]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You sometimes feel that way when Rob comes to you and says, business is going in the toilet, and then you find out he made tons of money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:55]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. I felt really comfortable when I found Suze Orman, and she had all these rules.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You like rules, huh?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:07]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I do like them. And it felt really comforting to me to be like, oh, there\u2019s these rules, and you can follow them. And when you follow them, everything will work out fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just explain to me for a second, because I want to make sure I understand. I\u2019m guessing you don\u2019t just love rules with money. I\u2019m guessing you like structure in many other parts of life. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:32]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I do. I like structure because it does make me feel safe. Yeah, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Safe?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:40]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, because when there\u2019s a structure, you can trust it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ah, so someone somewhere created this rule.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:48]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And I know if I follow this rule, then what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:53]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re going to have enough money. For example, if I\u2019m following, say, nutrition rules say as well, then I\u2019ll just be like, well, if you\u2019re eating good, then you\u2019re going to have good health. If you are following these money rules, your money\u2019s going to be okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does Rob feel the same way about rules? Does he like that same level of structure? Oh, you\u2019re laughing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:19]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m just laughing because he likes to break the rules a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0He\u2019s an entrepreneur. He has probably a different relationship with rules. Rob, is that fair to say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:34]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I looked at a lot of rules as hurdles to get around.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I like it. I feel the same way. It\u2019s so interesting, Adrienne, talking to you. And as you got older, do you remember them saying anything about money, talking to you differently as you became like 12, 13, 15, 16 years old about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:56]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0The biggest thing was there was this implication that my brother and I would not do well, that we were lazy, this whole thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:13]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. I did a lot of things. I became a massage therapist. I put myself through massage school. I came out as a massage therapist. I started making money, and then I told my dad I was a massage therapist. He was like, oh, you\u2019re making money. Good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s surprising. I would\u2019ve expected him just from what you\u2019re telling me to say, that\u2019s dumb. Why don\u2019t you do this instead?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:38]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0No, no. If I was making money, he was going to be okay. But the whole idea of the run up to making money was not going to be okay with them. The going to school and becoming something, that may or may not work out. That was not going to be okay. I just knew once I got there, if I just said, hey, guess what? I\u2019m making a lot of money, and I\u2019m a massage therapist. He be like, oh, great.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. Did you become good at knowing what to do and say around your dad and knowing what not to do and say around him?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:10]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0It took me a second to figure out how to be with my dad when I was a kid, because we definitely had some clashes, for sure. But I am really woo. My dad\u2019s a Leo.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? What the hell? What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:28]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Astrologically, my dad\u2019s a Leo.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So what does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:32]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0What it means is, if you are nice and you tell them all the great things about them, they\u2019re going to be nice to you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, I\u2019m a Leo according to that. Let\u2019s talk about money. I\u2019m a lot more comfortable over there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:47]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. So we talked about your childhood. Your dad passed away. Your mom\u2019s relationship with money, what is it now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:59]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Well, it\u2019s interesting. When I started learning about money, I would say to my mom, let\u2019s talk about it. I know all these things now. Let\u2019s talk about what\u2019s going on with your money. And my mom was like, I\u2019m not good at it. I\u2019m not good at it. So she would just be like, it\u2019s not something I can do. So what was happening was when my dad passed, she had given all her money to this\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:29]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0One of those guys who takes the 1% in everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you remember the company?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:33]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t remember his name. I just remember my mom kept saying, well, we\u2019re friends. And I was like, you\u2019re not friends with this guy. You are not friends with this guy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:43]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0We managed to wrestle the accounts away from him and put her in a Vanguard.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Good job.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:48]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s great.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:51]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0We did that with both our moms. Both of the moms are with us. We\u2019re the brokerage now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good job. I have a question. Adrienne, I\u2019m very impressed. Would you consider yourself good with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:02]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t consider myself good with math, but I do understand a lot about concepts. I know what Vanguard is. I know what the 4% rule is. I know a Roth IRA versus a 401k. I know what all of these concepts are.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I ask you the question again, Adrienne? Would you consider yourself good with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:30]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I think for who I am and my right brain, artist mind, I am excellent at money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. All right. Caveats and all, fine.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s literally years of details to uncover in what\u00a0Adrienne\u00a0just told me, how her dad would say one thing and do another, how her mom and dad spent money differently, and how she sees herself as kind of good with money, but loaded up with all kinds of caveats. What I especially\u00a0want to\u00a0draw your attention to is how much your relationship with money\u00a0can affect your children.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:10]\u00a0Because her parents didn\u2019t know how to handle money,\u00a0Adrienne\u00a0grew up in a ton of uncertainty. That\u2019s probably one reason she loves rules, because as she put it, rules make her feel safe. She married someone who, like her dad, swung wildly with his moods around money. And of course, she learned how to tiptoe around him, just like she did with her dad.\u00a0Be very thoughtful about how you behave around money because you will send a message to your children that will echo for generations.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to understand a little bit more about your history together with money. I understand that after Suze Orman, you got into the FIRE community.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:52]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. I started reading FIRE blogs and reading personal finance blogs. For the last 10 years, I\u2019ve been online reading about finance.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:00]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob showed me an article in the New York Times that Mr. Money Mustache was in, and he said, this might help us with investing. Because previously, we\u2019ve been following Suze Orman\u2019s advice on investing, and it was a disaster. It was not working at all. And once we started to understand or started to work with the FIRE movement, we thought, oh, well, we won\u2019t be able to retire early, but maybe we can retire actually. That would actually happen.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:40]\u00a0And because we had a short period of time, a short window or shorter window to do it in, that seemed like it was going to be really helpful. So Rob would show me a lot of different articles from the FIRE movement, and I read anything that he was showing me. There\u2019s meetups once in a while, so we would go to some FIRE meetups.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you like it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:07]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I do like it. I think it\u2019s really amazing. I think it\u2019s always really interesting because my people are not there. I am the only one there who\u2019s a massage therapist or an artist. Everyone is a tech person or super smarty pants people and everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So how long were you involved with the FIRE Movement?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:31]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say I was 52, and we left Austin when I was 60, so eight years we were doing these meetups probably. I started reading about FIRE at 52.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. So you said at 52, we may not be able to FIRE, that is retire early, but we can certainly increase our savings rate. We can start to invest aggressively. We can cut our costs, and at least hopefully we\u2019ll be able to get a line of sight on retirement at all. Okay. Went to the meetups. Great. What happened at the end of eight years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:07]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0We moved.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Adrienne, what was your journey after FIRE?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:11]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Your ideas actually came into our view after FIRE, because I thought it was really interesting. Well, it was interesting we saw you in Austin.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, at the book talk that I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:25]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0At the book talk that you\u2013 at BookPeople.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:27]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:28]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I was so annoyed because you are telling people they could keep drinking coffee or whatever. And I was like, little things matter. I felt really passionate about it at that point. I was like, little things matter.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Woo. You disagreed with me? I like that. So what was it, that little FIRE voice in the back of your head? Ah, it\u2019s actually not $3 anymore, Ramit. We did index for inflation. It\u2019s actually $3.85. And if you compound that for 95 years, it actually turns into $10,011. Like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:02]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, absolutely that, and also because my journey as a massage therapist, I had to give up some small things in order for me to pay off my debt. And I knew that that had worked for me. So I guess there was a part of me that was like, who\u2019s this guy? Who does he know?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:25]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0But then after a while, after we had amassed a larger amount of money and all of those kinds of things, I started to think, well, what\u2019s this guilt-free spending? Is that a thing? Can we have that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Was it just having more money, or was there something else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:49]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I think getting older, you realize like you don\u2019t have as much time left, so you\u2019re coming out of this survival mode into a place where you\u2019re in more of a freedom place. You want more freedom. I think all of those things were shifting inside of me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:14]\u00a0And I also felt confident that no matter what, we could always cut our spending, if we needed to, so I just felt really confident in us. I believed in us. I believed that we could do what we needed to do, no matter what came towards us, because I had seen it before. And then I like rules, and you\u2019re like, maybe 10% of your spending could be guilt-free. And I was like, that seems cool, seems exciting.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome. Okay, cool. It is interesting though, Adrienne, you were in credit card debt before a lot, and then you decided I\u2019m making a change. You spent several years paying it off. So you were highly engaged with your money before you got married, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:06]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This was what, in your 40s?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:10]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. It\u2019s difficult to turn around credit card debt at that age aggressively, which you did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:18]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you were highly engaged, but now you\u2019re less engaged. Did that change when you got married?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:25]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Not right away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:29]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I let Rob be more engaged with our money because it seemed like his zone of genius. And we always had a money date every month, and we always went through our net worth, and we went through everything, and we looked at it. And so I knew where everything was. I knew what we were doing. I\u2019m not in the dark about anything. I know absolutely what we\u2019re doing. I know our money\u2019s in Vanguard. I know it\u2019s in Fidelity. I know where\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you still have these money dates every month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:03]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Now we have them a little bit more sporadically, but we do go back to them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I appreciate that. How often are we talking about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:11]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s now, what, quarterly maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:14]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Quarterly, probably. Yeah, maybe quarterly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe less. Is it on the calendar?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:20]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not on the calendar, and what I would say, sometimes it feels like I\u2019ve got to drag you to the computer to do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Talk to Adrienne, Rob.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:35]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I think this is where I\u2019ve continued to take responsibility for this stuff, and maybe you just decided that that\u2019s okay, since the pandemic, since we\u2019ve had all this money. We sold our house in Austin a couple years ago. We made a lot of money on it. Took all the cash, and invested it. I don\u2019t know. It feels like since then something shifted.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:03]\u00a0It\u2019s funny. I think since we\u2019ve sold the house, moved away, had 2 million bucks in the bank, we\u2019re floating these last couple of years. There\u2019s this transition to like, okay, well, we\u2019ve made it. We don\u2019t have to push as hard. But there\u2019s certain things that we haven\u2019t been doing. It\u2019s a very strange feeling to be on cruise control, I guess. And that\u2019s what these last couple of years has felt like, in a way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is there something you want to change about that, Rob?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:38]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0This conversation\u2019s making me think, well, maybe this is why I\u2019m obsessing about this, as opposed to just looking at it and having Adrienne also look at it at the same time so that I don\u2019t have to feel like we\u2019re not on the same page. Maybe we should put it on the calendar for a quarterly date where we go through the net worth again. Like we used to do monthly, just do it quarterly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s easy. Adrienne, you good with that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:09]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely. Yeah. I want to do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob, I like that you are asking for something specific. First, you asked for a quarterly meeting. Adrienne was like, yeah, all right. Notice that it has nothing to do with anybody ignoring money or anything like that. It\u2019s just that one person has taken on increasing amounts of it. That\u2019s you, Rob. And then Adrienne, you created a story, which may or may not be true, about, this is Rob\u2019s zone of genius. I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s true or not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:40]\u00a0I know he tells me he obsesses and worries about money almost every day. That\u2019s not healthy. So perhaps there\u2019s a renegotiation that needs to happen here with one person taking on a little bit more of the load. Does that sound fair to both of you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:57]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. I am curious about after Susie Orman. So you both had debt. Adrienne, you had, what, $35,000 or so of debt? Am I remembering that right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:06]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And Rob, how much debt did you have when you were about to get married?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:11]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a060.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a060k. All right. That\u2019s a lot. So Adrienne, you paid off your debt. And then, Rob, you were like, hey, I have 60k of debt. Better tell you before we get married. And then what\u2019d you all decide?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:25]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Adi committed to help me paying it off. That was the agreement that we would pool our money, pay it off together. Took a couple of years to pay it off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s it? Two years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:40]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we were pretty frugal back then. And so we didn\u2019t go out to eat, and we set up a game where if we paid off 10,000 of debt, or if we saved 10,000 after we became solvent, then we would go out to eat once we saved 10 grand.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love it. I got to say this for the world because a lot of people think Ramit\u2019s Sethi\u2019s like, oh, everybody, go spend on all these expensive clothes while you have all this debt. I\u2019m like, you can live a Rich Life today and a richer life tomorrow, even if you\u2019re in debt. But I have to tell you, when I see people with 25, 30, $40,000 of credit card debt and they\u2019re eating out a ton, or they\u2019re taking a huge family trip to Disneyland, it\u2019s their money. It\u2019s their choice. But I just think to myself, I wouldn\u2019t do this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:26]\u00a0But gosh, two years to pay off 60k in debt. I love that you both said, we made it a game. That is amazing. It wasn\u2019t like, oh, this sucks. Boo-hoo. It\u2019s going to suck for us all. You\u2019re like, oh, we\u2019re going to crush this. And then you even made rules for yourself where you could win, like every 10,000, we get to go out to dinner. Textbook. Amazing work. Great job. I have to give you a round of applause. That\u2019s so impressive. What did it feel like once you finished paying that debt off?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:57]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I can tell you the date that we paid it off was December 8th, 2008.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:05]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it was two years from when we go\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you know that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:08]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Because of the yellow sheets.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:10]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Show him yellow sheet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is that? Tell me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:11]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0You want me to show you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. What is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:14]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0This is 18 years\u2019 worth of our finances right here on these yellow sheets.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, hold that up. Hold that. What is it? What am I looking at here? Numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:22]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Now you\u2019re looking at our net worth, which is much higher.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, okay. All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:26]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we write it out every month for a long time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Pull the bottom one. Let\u2019s just read those numbers off. The first one there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:33]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0A couple of pages have been taken away. This is $45,000 of debt where we had 72,000 in credit card debt and 26 grand in the bank. And so this one from June 5th, 2006. So it took about two and half years to pay it off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on. First of all, these papers are archival. These could be found in the Smithsonian. I\u2019ve never seen something this detailed. Amazing. Well done.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:03]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I\u2019ve had way too many bank accounts through the years. I\u2019ve had way too many credit cards through the years. I\u2019ve done the hacking thing. I\u2019ve done the churning thing. I\u2019ve done balance transfers way back when they were a better deal than they were today.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you look at these pieces of paper, Rob, what do you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:22]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I actually really feel proud of us that we were able to document this journey from being 60k in debt, all the way to being virtually able to retire.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you still maintain these yellow pages?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:35]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve got them at a bottom of a drawer. And yeah, we\u2019ll continue to make them quarterly. I have certain things on a spreadsheet. I\u2019ve got our monthly expenses mapped out on a spreadsheet, but I don\u2019t have our net worth.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob, what do you get out of it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:53]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0It tells a story really.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is the story?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:56]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0The story is we went from 60k in debt. Our net worth is $2 million. Yeah, it\u2019s miraculous. Feels miraculous. The miraculous story.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:09]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Took two people busting their\u00a0ass\u00a0for quite a few years to make it realistic.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Together.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:15]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0As a team. Beautiful.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:17]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, here\u2019s my question for both of you. What story do you want those yellow pages to tell now? You\u2019ve done the miraculous thing. You paid off the debt. You\u2019ve made a bunch of money. What is the next chapter of those yellow pages going to tell you?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:36]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I hope that if I do a yellow sheet 20 years from now, that it\u2019s going to show enough money so that we\u2019ll have\u2013 we don\u2019t have kids. We don\u2019t have anybody to leave this money to. I hope it\u2019s going to show enough money that there\u2019ll be 10 or 20 years\u2019 worth of assets there that can still be spent and that we\u2019ve maintained our lifestyle through it all.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:03]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I hope those yellow sheets tell the story of our freedom, that we have a lot of freedom to be able to do things that we want to do, that we\u2019ve been able to give money to charities, that we\u2019ve been able to spend money on people we love, that we\u2019ve been able to spend money on ourselves. It\u2019s just that we had a really, well, a Rich Life, actually. But in all ways, not just money ways, but we enjoyed this life. That\u2019s the story I want it to tell.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s beautiful about these yellow pages is that to an outside observer, they\u2019re just a stack of random pieces of paper. But to Rob and\u00a0Adrienne, they tell their life story. They tell a story of adversity, and hard work, and triumph. And I have to say, I\u2019m very impressed at what they\u2019ve accomplished together.\u00a0My job now is to help them make meaning out of what they\u2019ve accomplished. In other words, to ask them now what?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:08]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0The limitation of the yellow pages is that it\u2019s really just numbers in bank a account.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Huh? It is?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:14]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0It is in the sense of it doesn\u2019t show expenses. It doesn\u2019t show the trip we took to Tahiti last year.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why? Why not?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:22]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Because it\u2019s just listing our net worth and what we have in the accounts now. Our expense sheet is somewhere else. But you\u2019re trying to tell me\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Keep going. Keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:36]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I can look at our expense sheet and tell a story about how we\u2019re living a Rich Life, where we\u2019re spending our money. When I look at the yellow sheet, I just see what we have, what we say. That\u2019s what\u2019s on the yellow sheet.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob, do you think Adrienne has ever had a vision board in her life? Because laughing we both know the answer. She probably has one in her room right now. It\u2019s 10 feet tall. Am I right, Adrienne?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:06]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not 10 feet tall. It about\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:08]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Turn the camera around. Turn the camera around.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s got like different textures. She\u2019s got a silk thing from Kyoto. Okay. I know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:18]\u00a0She just gave you two gigantic clues, which I find very interesting. Number one, she has a vision board. Number two, she said, I want the yellow pages to tell the story of our life, not just the math, but\u2013 what was the rest of the thing she said?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:32]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Our freedom.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:33]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0That we had freedom. That we were generous. That we lived a Rich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But I don\u2019t know many people who get a lot of joy from looking at their expense sheet. Oh, Tahiti was so cool. We spent $82 at that dinner one night. No, that\u2019s not how you create a memory. You create a memory by looking at your videos, looking at your photos, maybe the little notepad from the hotel.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:57]\u00a0And I just wonder, in these yellow pages, which tell a beautiful, beautiful story that you\u2019re both proud of, and I love it\u2013 I\u2019m proud of it too\u2013 is might there be a way in the next chapter of your life to keep focusing on the big numbers, but also start to incorporate the stuff that you love?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:17]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah. I can see that. I\u2019ve got great pictures of Tahiti on my phone, and I also know it costs nine grand to go to Tahiti for a month last year.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m less interested in how much that costs. I think for the purposes of this, Adrienne would probably be more interested in a few beautiful photos and memorabilia on those yellow pages. Adrienne, am I reaching here?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:43]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I agree. I felt really sad when we got home from Tahiti, because I had enjoyed it so much, and I trusted that Rob knew the numbers and that we could afford it. And when we got home, he said, oh my God, what did we do? We spent so much. Oh my gosh. And then immediately, I felt like, oh, I can\u2019t enjoy this memory anymore because we blew it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:16]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Fear level was up. I had lost a client when we were on the trip. First quarter of the year is generally slower, so we went in February. So I think I just came home and started worrying.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Feel out of control with money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:33]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, if you go away for four weeks and spend extra couple thousand bucks, it can feel out of control.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you notice the times that you act in a peculiar way with money? There are times that you do not feel in control.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:46]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So every time you are feeling out of control and worried, you bring it to Adrienne in very unusual, often disproportionate ways. Adrienne, you\u2019re nodding your head a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:02]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think because Rob works out of the house, and I am definitely the sounding board if things are not going well.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:19]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0For sure.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How often do you log into the apps and credit cards, and all that stuff?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:25]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say, now, probably every other day, every third day sometimes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:30]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I would love to ignore the money the way that Adrienne or her mom does, and not so much ignore it, but not worry about it, not think about it. If I could stop thinking about it all the time, I would be really happy. And I have made some steps to do that, and it\u2019s really incredibly difficult to break a habit like that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What steps have you taken?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:57]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, it was looking at all the bank accounts and credit card statements every day, and now it\u2019s every second or third day.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:05]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s evolved. And even relationship with my phone has shifted in the last few months, where I\u2019ve turned the notifications off, so I\u2019m not responding quite as quickly as I used to.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Rob, how many financial apps do you have on your phone?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:20]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0The financial apps, I seem to have 10 of them.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I seem to have. The app God drop them onto my phone. Vanguard God, thank you.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:30]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I have 10.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ten\u00a0fucking\u00a0apps? What?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:34]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I only use a couple of them.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What apps? Read them to me.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:37]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Vanguard, Capital One, Discover, Chase, Venmo, American Express, City, Bluevine, Alliant, and Fidelity. But I only use a couple of these. I log in on the laptop all the time.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of times when I find people stuck in the weeds, it\u2019s somebody who has a very small amount of money. They often are doing what you used to do. You mentioned robbing Peter to pay Paul, transferring over here, not over there. Oh, I hope this check doesn\u2019t get cleared today. That\u2019s common for people who don\u2019t have a lot of money. That\u2019s not your situation.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:08]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re at the opposite end, and yet you are still behaving as if you are poor. And what that tells me is the way we feel about money is highly uncorrelated to how much we\u2019ve got in the bank, which is why you continue those behaviors, which is directly related to how you feel about money. Fixing the behaviors won\u2019t change your feelings, but they\u2019ll certainly help.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:34]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>We sold our house, and that shifted our finances tremendously.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you make a lot of money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:39]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0We did. We lived in a house for 11 and a half years. We bought for 385, and we sold for 875.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. All right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:50]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So we pocketed it and hit the road. We just moved and invested all of it right into our Vanguard investment. What did we do with the house money? I bought a new car when we got here. I needed a new car. We bought a car.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So what\u2019d you put in? 350, 400,000 into the market?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:12]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh no, we doubled, maybe 800 grand. We cleared 815, probably 750 of it went into the market.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you dollar cost average it, or did you lump sum it all?<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:27]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I lump summed it. I would\u2019ve made more if we dollar cost averaged it, maybe, but I had read that lump summing is better.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s better two thirds of the time. It\u2019s better two thirds of the time. I always like to ask because, big amounts of money like that, first time people put in a big amount of money, it could be 25,000. It could be 800,000. They\u2019re usually really nervous.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:53]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We just doubled what was in our portfolio overnight. So we had already had the asset allocation. We stuck with the asset allocation. I just doubled everything that was in there.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fantastic. Rob, do you feel confident that you can start to enjoy some of the money that you\u2019ve accumulated or no?<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:12]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I do, and I have been trying to loosen up. It\u2019s funny. It\u2019s like deceiving. I think I\u2019m less fearful, but then when we\u2019re talking today, it seems like I\u2019m still really fearful. But we have spent a lot more money in the last couple of years. We spent more money last year than we ever have before by a 50% more.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you enjoy it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:41]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, and then I get scared later. I\u2019d say, at the end of the year, when I look and see we spent 80,000 more than we made, I get scared or start to question whether this is sustainable for the next 20, 30 years.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you talk about your Rich Life together, what are some of the things? Adrienne first, then Rob.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:03]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we\u2019re more in the thinking stages around what that means. I don\u2019t know that we\u2019ve created a team effort around it as much as we could have.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Want to do it right now?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:19]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Go ahead.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:23]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0I know, for me, I would like to be more generous. That is for sure. I love that idea when you bring that into your podcasts. It just made me feel really good. For us, my Rich Life would include when we go on vacation and we spend money, that it\u2019s not guilt ridden at the end of the vacation. That we are happy that we spent this money. That we feel confident that we spent it, and it was fun, and we had a good time, and we got to live this adventure that is life.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I love those, Adrienne. Can you tell Rob those things in a way that connects with him? And then Rob, I\u2019d love for you to engage, get curious, toss the ball back and forth between both of you as Adrienne describes her Rich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:17]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So I think what would be great is if we came up with a plan about how much is our guilt-free spending and we stuck to that plan.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sorry. Can I just cut in? When you describe your Rich Life, what I want to hear and what most people respond to is something inspiring, something expansive. I can tell you that creating rules for some budget number\u00a0fucking\u00a0sucks. It\u2019s not inspiring. Get this FIRE thing out of your system. Everybody, go like this, it\u2019s out. We\u2019re not doing that anymore. We\u2019re living the Rich Life. So you got to start by being inspired. Paint the picture for us. I know you know how to do it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:05]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, inspiring. Okay. All right. We don\u2019t have that much more time left.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, I\u2019m depressed. We\u2019re on our way to that old graveyard called death. So anyway, what do you want to do in our elderly age? God damn.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:24]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, no, I just mean that time is precious.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:29]\u00a0<strong>Adrienne:<\/strong>\u00a0Time is precious. Our relationship is precious, and the people we love are precious. The people on this planet are precious actually. The people who serve us food and coffee in some ways are precious because I am seeing a vision for us of having this life of feeling relaxed, and we get to use our hearts to spend our money in ways that feel really, good and ways that also help the planet, and ways that help other people around us.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:07]\u00a0And a ripple effect of spreading our love to our love and our generosity out into the world. That\u2019s my vision. That\u2019s part of my vision for us and also for us to feel like we\u2019re spoiled. We get to have the things that we want, that are fun, and that we get to relax into the fact that we get to have these fun things. If it\u2019s a massage, or if it\u2019s a trip, or whatever it is, that we relax into these amazing things that we\u2019ve created for ourselves as well. How was that? Was that inspiring?<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That was amazing. I\u2019ve never heard anyone describe their Rich Life like that. That was beautiful, and that is exactly what I wanted to hear from you. Something that fits you like a glove. Thank you. That was awesome. Rob, respond to that. What did you hear her say?<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:11]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Can you repeat some of it? Can you summarize? No.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No, she can\u2019t summarize. She created art. It\u2019s never going to be heard again. And you\u2019re like, do it again.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:23]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. I\u2019m going to watch the replay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No. Listen. Rob, Rob, listen. Okay, Rob, I want to tell you something. This is all jokes aside, I notice a lot of patterns among people when they come and talk to me about money. That\u2019s part of the joy of my job. And I notice that people, particularly people who are in the weeds, in the spreadsheet, oftentimes people who came from the FIRE community, whenever I ask them about something they did that they really enjoyed, like a trip, or a new pair of shoes, or whatever, they will almost always tell me about the price. You did that with Tahiti. Did you notice that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:08]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. And I\u2019m like, I\u2019m not interested in how much you paid. I\u2019m interested in like, what\u2019d the sunset look like?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:14]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you able to play ball here? Because I need you to engage with Adrienne\u2019s vision. Otherwise, we\u2019re going to be spending the next 25 years of your life with you talking about why you are worried and everyone around you walking on eggshells, just as you yourself described, doing that as a kid.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:37]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0You want me to talk about using our hearts? I\u2019m stuck.<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you ever ask her questions about money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:47]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0About how she\u2019ll spend it, or how we\u2019ll make it, or what? Like what? How we\u2019ll balance a checkbook? What do you mean?<\/p>\n<p>[01:16:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Any questions about money at all?<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:00]\u00a0<strong>Rob:<\/strong>\u00a0I can\u2019t remember. I\u2019m drawing a blank.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:17:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you live a\u00a0Rich Life\u00a0if you are stuck in the spreadsheet? How do you change if you\u2019ve been worried about money for so long that you don\u2019t even know how to feel good about it anymore? And what do you do if your partner is the one who\u2019s just unable to dream about money? Next week, on part two of this episode, we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0get into specific numbers, and I asked our partners from Facet to run the exact scenarios of how their lives might turn out.\u00a0I can promise you this, you are going to be surprised. See you next week for part two of Rob and\u00a0Adrienne.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Adrienne and Rob are 59 and 62, and they are overcome with worry over whether or not they\u2019ve amassed enough wealth to live comfortably, and apply Rich Life principles, in their retirement years. Adrienne\u2019s head is in the clouds\u2014dreamy and full of color. Rob lives in his (physical!) spreadsheets. This episode is brought to you [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118909","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118909","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118909"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118909\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118909"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118909"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}