{"id":118911,"date":"2024-05-07T12:37:40","date_gmt":"2024-05-07T16:37:40","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118911"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:30:11","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:30:11","slug":"155-paul-morgan","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/155-paul-morgan\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 155. \u201cWe have $22k in cc debt\u2014but I want to renovate the house\u201d (Part 1)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe have $22k in cc debt\u2026but I want to renovate the house\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/btdCZDe2TO0\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/3UwzUB4GAkYYFwvG7XONyz?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Paul and Morgan, 37 and 33, find themselves in a painful loop of arguments and unchecked spending, putting the future of their young family at risk. We hear about destination concerts, ongoing renovations, and charged vacations\u2014but it\u2019s their fixed cost percentage that is most worrisome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Viator | Download the Viator app and use code VIATOR10 for 10% off your first travel experience with Viator.<\/p>\n<p>Trade | Right now, Trade is offering our audience a free bag of coffee with any subscription at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinktrade.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/drinktrade.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Netsuite | Get visibility to everything in your business one one place. Sign up and defer payments, with no interest, for six months at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/iwt.com\/netsuite\">https:\/\/iwt.com\/netsuite<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Claritin | Visit\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/claritin.com\/\">https:\/\/claritin.com<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0right now for a discount so you can get allergy relief and live Claritin Clear.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Links mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/156-paul-morgan\">\u201cWe have 2 kids, 3 cars&#8230;but only 1 month of savings&#8221; (Part 2)<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Paul, really, when he wants something, he\u2019s going to get it. There\u2019s no sense of, can we afford this? We haven\u2019t carved out the time to make a plan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And it\u2019s not just on me to make the plan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:10]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, we could talk about money, or we could just go out on the lake for three hours. It\u2019s summertime. I guess I always had this view or fantasy, like, I\u2019m always going to be making more money. As I get older, I\u2019ll get more raises. I\u2019ll be fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:26]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0When we were putting this all together, I realized we\u2019re at the edge of this cliff, and we can back up, or we would launch into, I think, a lot of debts.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. What would you want him to change?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:39]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think more restraint.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. And then your role is what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:44]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0The fun killer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When was the last time in a conversation about money you actually pulled out full comprehensive numbers of your financial situation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Never.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:55]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Never.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:56]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Never.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:56]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>No.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meet Paul and Morgan. Paul\u2019s 37. Morgan is 33. They\u2019ve been together for 10 years, and they have two young children. The major issue here is that they talk about changing their money behavior, and they talk and they talk, but they don\u2019t really make any changes. This is so common among couples, so I want you to pay close attention as I try to peel apart what\u2019s really going on here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:22]\u00a0This conversation, by the way, was filmed live in New York City, so I would encourage you to check it out on YouTube so you can see the body language and the facial expressions, which are so important to this story here today.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:34]\u00a0Let\u2019s meet Paul and Morgan.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:36]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Morgan, within the past couple of months, says things like, I\u2019m very stressed about money. I\u2019m so stressed about money. We got to work on our money. I would look at the bank accounts, and I would see maybe what I have coming in the next couple of months, and in my head, I\u2019m like, we\u2019ll be fine. Or we had two kids in daycare. We got one out of daycare. We\u2019re fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. And how does she take that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:04]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Not well. I guess sometimes when it comes up, it\u2019s at random times, so in my head, I\u2019m avoidant, or I don\u2019t want to deal with it in the moment. Maybe it\u2019s like, I don\u2019t know, at dinner time or like, oh my God, we need more money. We don\u2019t have enough money. And I\u2019m like, I don\u2019t feel like talking about this right now, or I don\u2019t feel like dealing with it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:27]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s usually until I bring it up again and then it can become an argument.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. You feel like you\u2019re constantly the one bringing it up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:35]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:36]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then who makes the budget?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:40]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve sat down together to make a budget.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:42]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0A couple of times.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:43]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Or we try apps like Mint or YNAB.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:49]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0But nothing has stuck.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then what happens when it doesn\u2019t stick?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:53]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0We just fall back into the pattern of what we\u2019ve been doing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:00]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We both work full-time. We have two young kids. I think life moves really fast, and it\u2019s hard to carve out that time, or I don\u2019t carve out that time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Today you\u2019re here. We\u2019re going to speak for a few hours.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:12]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Have you ever carved out this amount of time to talk about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:17]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No. I feel like we have these moments of, oh, something has to change. We have a big discussion, and we\u2019re like, we\u2019re going to do this. We\u2019re going to change. We make a budget. And then within days, it\u2019s gone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Days.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:30]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think so.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:31]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I wouldn\u2019t say days.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:33]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0When we were putting this all together, I realized we\u2019re at the edge of this cliff, and we can back up, or we would launch into, I think, a lot of debts.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Okay. All right. Why now? Why are we talking right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:47]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that things have just felt so out of control that there has to be a change.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. And then how long has it felt like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:56]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. I think it\u2019s just been building, building, but now we have two younger kids. So now I have an income. For a while, I didn\u2019t, and I was in school. So now, I guess, stakes feel higher.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because you have an income, the stakes feel higher.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:10]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:12]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. With kids too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Kids, I understand. Two kids, that\u2019s a big deal. You want to make sure that they\u2019re protected and\u2013 okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:23]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your kids are three and six, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:25]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Nice, nice. How about for you, Paul? How would you describe your relationship with money in the last decade?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:34]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess I always had this view or fantasy, like, I\u2019m always going to be making more money. I\u2019m just going to get more money. As I get older, I\u2019ll get more raises. I\u2019ll do this and that, and I\u2019ll be fine. That was my thinking when I was younger. Then adding two kids to the mix, and then a mortgage that I didn\u2019t plan on when I was younger.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:01]\u00a0And then breaking it down and seeing like all the other things that we pay for, I\u2019m just starting to realize that, well, I need to make some changes to hold on to what I have and to plan for things I want more than just assuming I\u2019m going to have money, and I\u2019ll get whatever I want.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you were younger and you thought about yourself with money, what visions came to mind? Some people are like, I\u2019m going to fly on a private jet. Or other people are like, I\u2019m going to have a house in the suburbs. What was your vision?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:38]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0That I was going to be rich.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Rich means what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:41]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0In that time, when I was younger, rich meant having a lot of money. I think when I was younger, I just assumed super materialistic. Like I\u2019d have a Ferrari. I\u2019d have a mansion. I\u2019d have a pool.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:57]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re talking about when I was younger.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And then how about in your mid-20s?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:01]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I realized that I chose a career that doesn\u2019t necessarily mean I\u2019m going to be a million, billionaire, as I imagined when I was five or six. But when I was in my mid-20s, I still thought that, hey, I\u2019m going to be making more money later. I\u2019m not going to have to really worry about anything, whether I have a Ferrari or a Toyota. I will be financially stable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:29]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Paul can be very, like, it\u2019s fine, it\u2019s fine and really glazing over things or generalizing issues.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you think he does that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:40]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Because it helps him not really be able to see what\u2019s going on and continue engaging in behavior that he wants to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. So when you come and you\u2019re like, hey, I\u2019m stressed out about money, or we need to make this change, and he goes, ah, we\u2019re fine. Look, one kid\u2019s out of daycare. We did that. How do you feel at his reaction?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:00]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think dismissed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how does that feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:04]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0It can feel hard. Yeah. I usually will get angrier. I give a bigger reaction.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:10]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And then typically, we\u2019ll have these conversations. I\u2019ll have a reaction, and then we\u2019ll have this reckoning of like, okay, we have to do this, and maybe we will identify some action steps, but then it never really moves past that.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I am fascinated by the moment where people realize life isn\u2019t going to turn out the way they envisioned it. For example, when we were kids, maybe we said we want a Ferrari, or we want to be a marine biologist, and then we start to learn how much things cost, and slowly we change our mind.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:42]\u00a0Now when I\u2019m speaking to Paul and Morgan, I heard several other clues. Paul loves to reassure Morgan, but he\u2019s light on the specifics. This is something really common that we hear over and over on the podcast, especially with men. They recently added an income.\u00a0They subtracted childcare. But it doesn\u2019t really seem to have made a difference. Another common issue when you don\u2019t know your numbers. And finally, I pay really close attention to the words they used, stressed, angry, dismissive argument, edge of a cliff. Remember, two kids, the stakes are high.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:15]\u00a0We will be right back after this short break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:19]\u00a0Now back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:21]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0We had this argument over this subscription service that Alex wanted to get.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which one?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:27]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0nugs.net. Have you heard of it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No. What is this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:29]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s like for live music. So he had brought it up really casually at dinner, and I was already feeling stressed about\u2013 it was on my mind, money. I reacted to it, like, what are you talking about? That doesn\u2019t make any sense. We already pay for Spotify. You have Sirius radio. Why do you need another subscription services, and where is this money going to come from? So it really escalated. He got really defensive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on. Let\u2019s just hear what happened. So you said that. And then, Paul, just respond as you did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:03]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Music is one of my hobbies. I love live music, and it\u2019s something that makes me happy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:09]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0You can listen to music all the time. We listen to it. We go to live music. You have Spotify. I don\u2019t think this is a justified\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:17]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0And I said it\u2019s only $149 for the entire year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:22]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And then where\u2019s that coming from? From your budget, from the money you have, where\u2019s the $149 coming from?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:28]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I couldn\u2019t answer the question. I think the way you phrased it was, well, how much money do you have to spend on that and I couldn\u2019t answer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:41]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And then I think it spiraled into, we need a budget. We\u2019re spending so much money. We don\u2019t even know how much we have. What\u2019s going on? And I think I bring the emotion into it, and he stays very neutral.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:52]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Retirement comes up a lot. Like, how much do you have for retirement?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You bring that up, right, Morgan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:58]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You ever brought up retirement in your life?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:01]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So nugs. Why is it called nugs, first of all? Is this a word? Because I never heard this word. Am I saying a word that I\u2019m going to get in trouble for?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:12]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:13]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s associated with jam band music.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Jam band. Well, what does nugs mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:19]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Your nugs, your stash. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the hell?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:23]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Secret. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:23]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s a nug? All right. I don\u2019t know anything about this brand. Please, [Inaudible], don\u2019t get in trouble for whatever this site is and word. I\u2019ve never heard it in my life. So did you end up signing up for\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:35]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I did not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:36]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. This live music thing, nugs, was the wedge into a much bigger, more contentious discussion about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:44]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And it never really seems like it got settled.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:47]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:47]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It hasn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does this happen a lot? Somebody brings something up and then nothing happens from it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:53]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I was informed by my editors that nugs means weed. If you\u00a0want to\u00a0laugh at me, this is the time. Look, I don\u2019t know anything about drugs. Okay. What I do\u00a0want to\u00a0talk about is that a 12-dollar subscription for this couple leads into a fight about retirement. This is so common with couples. They use a tiny expense as a wedge to talk about bigger topics.\u00a0But if scarcity around that smaller issue is your entryway into discussion about money, it almost always means your conversation is going to go poorly.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If somebody looked at you from the outside, where you live, or work, or things like that, what kind of conclusions do you think they would draw about the financial part of your relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:40]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. I get in my head and feel pretty self-conscious about that, especially with the house. Because it\u2019s not the way that I envision it to be. We bought a fixer-upper, and we haven\u2019t fixed it up. So I get very self-conscious about having people over, and that creates some tension. Paul can get pretty defensive about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:01]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I feel like buying a house was a huge investment. It took a lot of time to save up the money, and it was me doing the legwork with that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:13]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The savings?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:13]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0The savings, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:15]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, Paul, he saved while I was in college. We lived with my parents for a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:20]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0When we got pregnant, that was one financial decision we made.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, to move in with her parents?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:27]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, to save money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:28]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Paul was able to squirrel away some money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:33]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Over 60k.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:36]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m like, I\u2019m proud of doing this. And to have somebody be like, well, this isn\u2019t the way I want it to look like, I\u2019m embarrassed by it. It\u2019s hurtful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You really worked hard for that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:52]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You accomplished a lot to be able to put that 20% down.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:55]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. And I understand that you have watched the Netflix show. You\u2019ve been listening to the podcast.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:02]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So Paul, did you start to hear Morgan saying stuff like, Ramit said this, etc.?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:08]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Totally.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s common.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:10]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0And I\u2019m like, who\u2019s this Ramit?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:13]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I may have said something back about like, oh, great, someone\u2019s going to tell me to stash all my money, not live my life. But Morgan made a point like, Ramit\u2019s not like that. He wants to push things you enjoy and have fun and live a fulfilling Rich Life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:34]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>I<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>was trying to get the hook.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Did it work?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:37]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, he\u2019s here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You mentioned, Paul, in the pre-interview, you said, she tells me things about money because she\u2019s listened to his podcast, so now she thinks she\u2019s an expert.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:53]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess that\u2019s what it felt like. It was like tidbits throughout the day about when she was listening to you non-stop.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0She\u2019s like, time for a low-cost Vanguard Index fund.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:04]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I\u2019m like, okay, you\u2019ve been listening to Ramit for a week. Now you\u2019re just telling me what to do, but not really giving any advice or setting a plan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:16]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0We haven\u2019t carved out the time to make a plan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:18]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And it\u2019s not just on me to make the plan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is it time? I know you have two kids, but\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:23]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If I looked at your calendars, what would I see on your calendars?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:28]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Work, and then I usually do drop-off in the morning with the kids. Then I work, then I get the kids, and I do dinner, and all that stuff. And then I feel like by the end of the day, it\u2019s like\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s tough.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:42]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Ugh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I get it. What about weekends?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:45]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s kid activities, work around the house, errands.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:50]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s definitely time.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s talk about time. I don\u2019t love the phrase, we all have the same 24 hours, because a lot of us have different obligations, different capabilities, different experiences, and different lives. But with that said, ultimately, if you\u00a0want to\u00a0get good at money, you have to spend time on it. There\u2019s no way around it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:11]\u00a0There\u2019s no trick. It\u2019s that simple. It\u2019s the same as if you\u00a0want to\u00a0learn how to cook or you\u00a0want to\u00a0speak Spanish. Now, in an ideal world, you would build the right systems and habits before you have kids because it\u2019s tough to start something new with really young children. But if you didn\u2019t already build those financial habits, it\u2019s not too late.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:32]\u00a0It\u2019s just important that you are both on the same page and that you both share some of the responsibility of money, so it\u2019s not just one person doing all the lifting. Listen as Paul tells me how he avoids money.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:45]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know, avoidance maybe, putting things that give instant gratification first maybe. Like, oh, we can\u2013 where we live, we live on a lake. So, oh, we could talk about money or we could just go out on the lake for three hours. It\u2019s summertime.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You have a boat?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:07]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No. That\u2019s another\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? Someone wants a boat. Oh, you want one?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:12]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, but we didn\u2019t put it on the\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:14]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0So we\u2019re not\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:15]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0We have kayaks. We have kayaks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Every time someone has a boat, they don\u2019t put it on the conscious spending plan, and then they discover it. And then they\u2019re like\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:21]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Because it\u2019s shameful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? You have a boat? It goes like this. They have a huge truck. You have a truck?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:28]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:29]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Not a huge truck, but we\u2019ll talk about\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What truck is not huge these days?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:32]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0A Tacoma, a smaller mid-size.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I don\u2019t know what that is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:34]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good brand.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:36]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0We know you\u2019re not a truck guy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good brand. Toyota. I love it. Then they tell me they have a truck, which is 120K TCO. And then I go, hey, you live in Kansas. You literally have no hills, no nothing. Why do you have a truck? And they look at me like I\u2019m stupid. They go, Ramit, how else am I going to pull my boat? I go, what the\u00a0fuck?\u00a0Boat? Where is that? All right, so you have kayaks, but no boat. Fine. I\u2019m not even getting into that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:02]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:02]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:03]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Paul, really, when he wants something, he\u2019s going to get it. And that\u2019s felt hard. There\u2019s no sense of can we afford this? Or where is that money coming from? It\u2019s very much like, I want this. He almost gets hyper-focused on it. Like last summer, I was like, the boat. I\u2019m getting a boat. He\u2019s looking at boats. No, we\u2019re not getting a boat.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You said that. We\u2019re not getting one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:25]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And he\u2019s like, come on, we live on a lake. We need a boat. We need a boat. No, we do not need a boat.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:30]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So Morgan, if you could have Paul change the way that he relates to money and you could wave a magic wand, what would you want him to change?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:47]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think more restraint.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then your role is what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:51]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0The fun killer, feels like.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:55]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:55]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0But we\u2019ll also say, oh, don\u2019t worry. I\u2019ll be getting this commission in a couple of months. We\u2019ll have this money coming in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:05]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Even putting this together, he\u2019s like, we\u2019re not in a bad spot. It\u2019s pretty good. We\u2019re going to figure this out. Very positive, but no action. Or like, how are we going to figure it out? We can say, yeah, it\u2019s good, but how?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:20]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Reassure.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know why you do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:21]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe to take some of the steam off in the moment. I don\u2019t know. In my head, we\u2019re young. I\u2019m just still optimistic. We\u2019ll figure this out. We\u2019ll have money. We\u2019ll be making more money. We will have more money coming in. I think that that\u2019s an issue that I always have, whether money or not. I always want to solve the problem right away. Like, I\u2019ll take care of it, or I\u2019ll fix this. And then I get fixated on fixing something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Have you fixed your financial problems?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:58]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I haven\u2019t fixed the problems, but I think I try to assist with bringing more money in as I can, but in terms of fixing our \u201cfinancial problem,\u201d no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you understand the problem?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:20]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:22]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Somewhat.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s a yes or no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:27]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0Why is it that I meet so many men who reassure their wives that everything will be okay with money without them even knowing a single number in the family finances? Literally, how are you\u00a0going to\u00a0reassure your partner that it\u2019s all okay when you don\u2019t even know where your money is going?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:43]\u00a0This really frustrates me it. It goes from helpful to purely delusional. If someone walks up to me and they have a gaping chest wound, am I\u00a0going to\u00a0pat them on the back? Say, hey, you\u2019ll be fine. It\u2019s\u00a0going to\u00a0be okay. Of course not. I know nothing about that injury.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:00]\u00a0So what makes you think you can simply say, \u201cIt\u2019ll be fine.\u201d to your partner? By the way, your partner\u2019s almost always the one who actually handles the money. Guys, stop saying this. Your partner wants competence, not reassurance. I\u00a0want to\u00a0say that again. I want you to hear me closely. Your partner does not want your reassurance.\u00a0They want your competence. So get involved with the finances and take on some of the responsibility.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:26]\u00a0Hold that thought. We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:29]\u00a0Now back to Paul and Morgan.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:31]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, so my parents, they owned a business, but my parents have always been just like, spend beyond their means. I lived very comfortably, but never really a sense of\u2013 I would hear under conversations of, oh, we don\u2019t have any money, but then they would be buying things. So it was always very confusing and a little unsettling.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How old were you when you started to hear these messages?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:00]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably in elementary, middle school.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Who is it that said we don\u2019t have enough?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:06]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think my dad would say it a lot, but then he would also spend. They\u2019re looking for dopamine, just purchasing, feel good. I want this. We\u2019re going to get that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:16]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I remember Christmas time would go way over the top, and then always, as Apple started becoming bigger and bigger, we\u2019d open all our gifts, and then in the corner there\u2019d be a new computer, a new iPhone, some ridiculous, very expensive thing. It would be very exciting. But I also sensed, from a young age, like this just feels like it\u2019s too much. It\u2019s okay to say no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What about as you got older, like you became a teenager? What do you remember then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:45]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0They also would make a lot of financial choices. I think they spent a lot of money. They would borrow money from someone else to pay another person.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:55]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Taking money out of the cash register at the business to buy something. And they always just figured it out. But I\u2019m sure they paid so much extra money. My dad, when we were looking at a house, he was always like, do a balloon. He has this idea of this balloon payment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:16]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0You know what a balloon mortgage is?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u00a0fucking\u00a0know what a balloon payment is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:19]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s how he bought his business. That\u2019s how he bought his house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s his reasoning like? What did he say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:26]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0They don\u2019t have great credit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:28]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0You pay a little now, and then it gets more and more as you get settled. He didn\u2019t really explain to me what it meant, but more of like, just do it. This is what I did, and it worked for us. Look at what we have.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s very interesting. Did you do a balloon payment, by the way?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:44]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did you know not to?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:46]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I\u2019ve learned to do the opposite of what\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:49]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0There was no reason to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:51]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Over my years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:52]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That says simple, nice heuristic. Whatever dad says, I\u2019m going to go ahead and do the opposite.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:57]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:58]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It was always confusing. We had a lot of things. So I grew up in the suburbs of New York City, in a pretty affluent area. We had less money than those of us around us, but lived within those means, of around us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you lived above your means?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:15]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And we had cars repossessed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:18]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, chaotic. Just always very chaotic and like, what is going\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, how come this didn\u2019t come up? What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:26]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s surprising to me. It\u2019s extreme. That\u2019s not a common thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:30]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And it was always humorous. They talk about that, like, oh, they saw that the van was just gone, and then they don\u2019t what happened, and then they figured it out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what did you make of that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:42]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, this is so chaotic and\u00a0fucked\u00a0up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:44]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I think Morgan\u2019s dad told me a story because you guys had a Honda van that they financed, and I think they refinanced it a couple of times. And he told me he ended up paying over $100,000 for the Honda.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:59]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And he says it in this glorified like, oh, I survived this. This is what we did. You\u2019ll be fine. But I remember like filling out my FAFSA and my mom being like, take out the max amount because you want to buy new books and have everything for school. And I was just like, okay. And then now I\u2019m realizing I did not need to take out the maximum amount of the loan. For what? For a new book that I barely opened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how much do you think they made?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:29]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, he tried to sell us the business, so we knew\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:34]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, a couple of years ago.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:36]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And you were like, if dad\u2019s trying to sell this, I\u2019m not getting it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:40]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0He didn\u2019t tell us an exact number. He just said, you\u2019ll be making more than you\u2019re getting now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:47]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And you\u2019ll live so comfortably.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:49]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0So I said, sign. I\u2019ll take it. No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:54]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And I was like, no, we\u2019re not doing that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:55]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did he react when you said no?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:57]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think he was wounded, yeah, hurt by it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does he still have it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:04]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No, my sibling took it over.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:06]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:07]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how are they doing with it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:08]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And then they sold it again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s like a hot potato.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:11]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a whole thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the hell? All right. Don\u2019t tell anyone what this business is because if they\u2019re trying to sell it, it\u2019s going to be dead in the water.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:18]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Wow. How are your parents doing with money now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:22]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think they\u2019re living comfortably, but they\u2019re going to run out of money. I get worried.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do they know that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:29]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think they acknowledge it. No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What will happen if and when that happens?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:35]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s a big point of stress to think about. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:40]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did you grow up with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:42]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0The complete opposite. My parents were great with money, amazing, to the point where they would come home from the store, they would save the receipts. They would write everything down in a notebook. When I was four, they purchased their second home. They sold the first home, but we moved into a bigger house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:03]\u00a0And I remember my mom telling me when they lived in their first house\u2013 my mom was a teacher, my dad was an engineer. They were banking away my dad\u2019s entire salary. They didn\u2019t spend it on the house at all. They were just putting it in the bank.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where did they grow up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:18]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0They grew up in Bergen County, New Jersey, North Jersey. They both came from not having much money growing up, living in tiny houses, and they wanted a big suburban house. When I was four, they bought a 4,000 square foot house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:37]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s really big.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:39]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0They still live in it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Especially for that time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:41]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And they still live in it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:42]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0They still live in it. It\u2019s paid off. Completely paid off now. They own it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you remember them saying about money when you were elementary school age?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:52]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Don\u2019t buy something you can\u2019t afford. Don\u2019t use credit card. Don\u2019t put money on credit, and don\u2019t finance, just save the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did all the lessons start with the word don\u2019t?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:08]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No, they didn\u2019t, but I saw, I guess growing up, the length of time it would take to purchase something or buy something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what was your conclusion? A long time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:24]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I think as I got older, I was like, well, you could get this right away and put it on a credit card.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When did you first go into credit card debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:34]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0When I was in college, I maxed out a credit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Are you in credit card debt now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:39]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long have you been in it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:43]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably since after we bought our house, but it fluctuates. It\u2019ll get higher. I\u2019ll pay a huge lump sum, and then it\u2019ll get low or close to zero, and then it\u2019ll start to trickle back up again, and then I\u2019ll start paying it off quickly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Does it matter to you if you have credit card debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:09]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess. Hypothetically, no, but I understand the repercussions. That you\u2019re paying more than what your purchase was with interest and fees.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Sounds intellectual. I understand you\u2019re paying more in interest, but does it matter to you here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:34]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I think recently it does because we\u2019re in this cycle or we\u2019re hitting a wall within the past couple of years of buying the house and having the second kid that our savings get to a certain point and we\u2019re not growing anything more than that. And I think that\u2019s what I\u2019m realizing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:00]\u00a0But I\u2019ll buy things on the credit card that I don\u2019t have the money in the instance to buy. And like I said, I\u2019ll get commission and stuff quarterly, and in my head, I\u2019m just like, okay, within a couple of months, I\u2019ll have more money coming in. I\u2019ll just put that on the card.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So the commission ends up going to pay half the debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:25]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s already spoken for, so you never really get ahead.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:28]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Correct.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:29]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It\u2019s just a cycle.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How are your parents doing with money now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:33]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Great. I think they feel happy and a sense of self-worth that their house is paid off. It\u2019s just the two of them there now in a 4,000 square foot house. I\u2019m like, you don\u2019t need this. Why don\u2019t you move closer to us or get a condo somewhere? And they\u2019re like, well, we worked for this. We paid this. We don\u2019t want to move. All our stuff is here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:00]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess half is frustrating, like, you don\u2019t need the house, but the other half is like, they did this. They accomplished it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Do they live in a way that you admire when it comes to their money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:12]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess partially that they\u2019re so in tune with where every dollar goes, what they have, what they\u2019ve invested, what they\u2019re growing. They\u2019re pretty frugal. So I\u2019m not a frugal person, so I don\u2019t admire that part. Growing up, my dad always had the beat-up car, and he was handy and would keep it running, and stuff like that, so they can still live the life they want and provide for their kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Morgan, anything that Paul missed? Any surprises for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:53]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No. I\u2019m always like, well, you had that modeled for you, so why don\u2019t you model it for me?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:59]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Teach me that. I have no concept of that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what does he say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:03]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0He feels more restricted by that idea than he was letting on with you. I think it\u2019s so telling too because when he is telling a story about me restricting his spending, he uses the same voice that he does describing his mom restricting. We have the same voice in his dialogues.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:26]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:27]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Just a naggy, like, don\u2019t do that. But I\u2019m like, you are using the same voice you use when you\u2019re talking about your mom.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s double the therapy amount and go to couples therapy. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:40]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s pretty deep.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:41]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did I not know this until now? Paul?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:46]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Because my parents were frugal, maybe I felt restricted.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And because you felt restricted, now you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:58]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0That I need more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0More what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:01]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:02]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. So would that start to explain why on a weekly or monthly basis you come home saying like, I want to get this, I want to get that, I want to get this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:13]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. And then when you bring those things, you don\u2019t look at the money. You\u2019re not pulling out your conscious spending plan or even how much is on\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:20]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I just see the thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You see the thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:22]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And I say yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then who makes the decision about whether you get that thing or not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:30]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Myself and Morgan sometimes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. What\u2019s the difference? How do we know if it\u2019s going to be you making the decision, Paul, or Morgan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:41]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0If it\u2019s discussed, it\u2019s Morgan. If it\u2019s an impulse and I just do it, it\u2019s me. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:51]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think Paul is very rebellious against limits.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Paul did say, I need someone to tell me what to do, but when they tell me, I resist.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:07]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Paul, you remember saying that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:09]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so he\u2019s rebellious. Go on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:12]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. It was difficult for me to hear that he\u2019s saying he was restricted because I think he got everything he wanted as a kid. They went on vacations. He has tons of things, material possession. So I don\u2019t think there was a lot of restriction. I think there were maybe limits set. And hearing that as someone who didn\u2019t have limits, I\u2019m like, I want those. Give me those.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit<\/strong>\u00a0You want limits.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:39]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, who do you want\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:40]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I want someone to tell me no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who do you want to set the limits? You want him to?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:45]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Cool.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:46]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Or us both set the limits.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Just a question, how likely do you think it is for him to set the limits for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:52]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Very unlikely. Very unlikely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s be real. He\u2019s not setting limits for himself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:58]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think he feels like he doesn\u2019t like that frugality. I earned this. I should be able to spend.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I get that same sense. I\u2019m a little puzzled, Paul. If I grew up with parents who pulled out the receipt and then wrote it down in a notebook, and then I\u2019m sitting over here at age five and I\u2019m like, I want a Ferrari, and now I want to go and spend my money on travel and credit card stuff, etc., something doesn\u2019t match there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:25]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess also, I have the mentality, like I work a lot. I work hard for my money. I want to enjoy it. I work a lot of hours per week. I have a stressful job, sometimes, most of the time, and having experiences or doing things that a lot of times cost a lot of money, I jump into, because I have this mentality. I work so hard that I want to spend my money, or I want to do things and not be restricted.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You previously said that we work hard. We\u2019re going to go visit places. If we have to pay it off months later, that\u2019s how it is. Tell me about that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:26]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, we don\u2019t get that much time alone being with two kids, and last year, we booked a trip to Key West together. It was somewhat spontaneous. I think a couple of months before we planned it out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did this come about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:45]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I was on Instagram and saw an advertisement for some bands we like playing at Key West Amphitheater. We booked the trip. I used credit card points that only covered one room of the stay, one night, because we booked the bougie room on the beach with the balcony.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Did you know that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:11]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like, oh, we\u2019re going to use our points, it\u2019s going to pay for one night, and we\u2019ll have to figure out the rest?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:17]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Once I started looking at the hotels, it was one of those high weeks where all the hotels earn more money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so what\u2019d you do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:28]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I booked three nights at the hotel. It was 800 a night, 900 a night.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So pretty expensive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:35]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you got one night covered, and then two nights you\u2019re paying on the credit card. This credit card, did it already have debt on it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:43]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, but I don\u2019t recall how much, but not crazy. A couple thousand maybe. I don\u2019t think we used the credit card a crazy amount when we were there. It was mostly cash and debit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:55]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Debit and cash.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:57]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0But the airline and the hotel was all on the credit card.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:01]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did it end up costing in total?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:03]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I think when we ran the numbers afterwards, it was over $5,000, maybe closer to seven or something. Between five and\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No. It was probably eight if we factor everything in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:18]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can\u2019t move forward if we\u2019re not honest about what the numbers are. The numbers are the numbers. So then I\u2019ll just say like, that\u2019s a very easy-to-adopt technique, which is if you have a range, first off, if the range is 5,000 to 5,500, fine. I get that. There\u2019s going to be some play. If it\u2019s five to 7,000, that\u2019s a pretty big range. And if you\u2019re going to have that range, go for the top.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:44]<strong>\u00a0<\/strong><strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What do you do about the $7,000 in costs?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:51]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0On the credit card?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You still paying it off?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:55]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it got paid off toward the end of last year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:59]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s new things on there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, like what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:01]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Home improvement stuff, car maintenance, unexpected car stuff, and concert tickets.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which concert?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:11]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Fish. Do you know the\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. All right. And what kind of renovation stuff?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:16]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re redoing the bathroom right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much? There\u2019s no budget.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:21]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s no budget. We started redoing it, we found bigger issues in the house that had to be dealt with. It wasn\u2019t just taking off a finish and replacing a finish like we had hoped for. I\u2019m doing it myself, so saving money there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a very Midwest thing to say. You know what I talk about the Midwest money psychology?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:47]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can we look at the numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:48]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, let\u2019s do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:49]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. First of all, what was it like doing this conscious spending plan together?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:52]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely eye-opening. Like we said, we made a budget previously. Never really stuck to it, but I think because we haven\u2019t put the numbers on paper in front of both of us in quite some time since things have changed\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the\u00a0fuck? What? Hold on. I already love this. When you said you did a budget before, did you put numbers on paper?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:17]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. But it\u2019s been\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:17]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Excel spreadsheet. I\u2019m saying it\u2019s been a while since we\u2019ve done that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. How long has it been?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:24]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Two years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When did you do it last? What was going on?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:30]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0So there was a financial planner through my work that we met with.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-oh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:34]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. He tried to sell us whole life insurance. It got a little bit of a fire going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Was that so you could run away from his bad advice?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:46]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think so.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:48]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0We had the initial meeting. We both got life insurance, which we didn\u2019t have, which we didn\u2019t get the\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You got term life insurance.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:55]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0We got term life insurance, which we needed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:58]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We didn\u2019t have it. We had two kids. We\u2019re like, we need life insurance. So that\u2019s taken care of.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then what happened? Did you change anything after that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:05]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s pretty much how budgets go.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:07]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:08]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s like, oh, this sucks. And then you do nothing about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:11]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Well, the good news is your situation\u2019s not that uncommon, but nobody likes budgets. The bad news is that you did not change anything anyway.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:22]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you put the numbers into the CSP. What was that like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:27]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0It was stressful.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:30]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think with us when money gets talked about, immediately, there\u2019s emotion. I get activated. I feel stressed. Paul gets very defensive, and it\u2019s difficult. We don\u2019t move forward. We did it, but it was like cramming final hour, like we get this done. I think we were both avoiding it a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because? Why were you avoiding it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:55]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Just because I knew what the conversation was going to be like.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What would it have been like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:01]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0It very much goes to, it feels like I am the fun killer, policing Paul. He gets very defensive. I have to convince him or rationalize, talk him in the direction I want him to go in, which doesn\u2019t always work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s that direction?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:21]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Just toward solution or spending less money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:24]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0When high numbers were coming up, Morgan, in the moment, was like, oh, we got to stop spending this much. We need to do this. We need to do that. But all we were trying to do is let\u2019s just put everything in here first, and then let\u2019s figure out the solution, point A to point B.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know why you were doing that, Morgan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:45]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I could be wrong, but I feel like you were looking for me to create the solution then and there, or to have the solution in that moment.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Here\u2019s what I wish couples did before they filled out the conscious spending plan. I wish they would both sit down independently and ask themselves, how do I show up with money in my relationship? Am I an avoider? Am I a worrier? Do I always try to get it done as fast as possible? And then I wish they would both write down how they want to show up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:20]\u00a0Maybe one wants to be more understanding instead of judgmental. Maybe another wants to be more engaged instead of avoidant. I wish couples would spend an hour talking about that and then 30 minutes on the CSP numbers themselves. It\u2019s like that old quote about spending all the time sharpening the ax before you go and cut down the tree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:40]\u00a0Of course, nobody does this, but that\u2019s how it should be done. Focus on your own psychology, then the psychology of the two of you, and then, and only then, the numbers.\u00a0\u00a0We\u2019ll open up their conscious spending plan after this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:56]\u00a0Thanks for your patience. Let\u2019s get back into it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:59]\u00a0As we go through the conscious spending plan, by the way, you can download the template and follow along at iwt.com\/csp.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Morgan, can you walk through the net worth section? Just read off the words in bold and the full number next to it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:15]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Assets, 495,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:19]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Investments, 16,994. Savings, 5,744. Debt, 218,718.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And total net worth?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:33]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0$299,020.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:40]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s pretty low.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What do you think, Morgan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:43]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I thought we were going to be in negative.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. Damn. It\u2019s depressing in here right now. I\u2019m sweating. How do we know this is good or not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:54]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. What do you think, Paul? You said it\u2019s pretty low. What number would be good?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:02]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Just looking at the numbers, a higher savings and a higher investment would be good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So your response is, I don\u2019t know what would be good, but I know this is bad. That\u2019s pretty much how most guys feel about their money. It\u2019s like, all right. Well, that\u2019s why I\u2019m always going to have a job. All right, so I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s good or bad. I know that in general it\u2019s positive. I know that you\u2019re in your 30s.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:30]\u00a0I know that looking at this, you have a net worth of $300,000, including a house. And alone, that just gives me a snapshot of where you are. Your income, your expenses, that tells me a lot more, right? So let\u2019s put a pin in the net worth. First of all, it\u2019s positive. That\u2019s a good science. It\u2019s positive with 300,000 bucks. All right. Income. Paul, what is your combined gross monthly income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:58]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a014,307.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, so you make $14,000 per month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:04]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:05]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Gross.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Gross. So what do you think about that number?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:09]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think it\u2019s\u2013 I wish it was net.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Damn a lot of depressed responses. I\u2019ve never had a couple making $14,000 a month telling me all the things wrong with life. What the hell is going on here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:29]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I just feel like, where\u2019s the money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:31]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It just seems like, yeah, with all the costs and living in the area we do, it seems like it doesn\u2019t go very far.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Have you ever felt good about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:43]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I guess when I see a lot of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which is what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:54]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. 10,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? Oh, look right here. Look at your investments. Read that investment number to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:02]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a016,994.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Do you feel good?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:07]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0That number needs to be higher to be on track for retirement.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:15]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0No, not for investments.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you told me just a second ago, I feel good when I have 10,000. You have almost double that. You don\u2019t feel good. Is it possible when you have 50,000 you\u2019re not going to feel good?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:26]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Could be, maybe, because once you have more money, maybe you think you need more money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:31]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I think he puts values on things versus numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:37]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Like the things he has, the experiences he does.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like what?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:42]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Like cars, a boat. Not that we have\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:45]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t have a boat.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:46]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0No, but I think in your mind, that\u2019s what you feel like.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Your fixed cost, what\u2019s that number, Morgan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:54]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a084%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a084% on fixed costs combined. What do you think about that? Uh-oh, I just saw that look on your face.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:02]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0I went, ugh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:03]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0It just feels out of control.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:05]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. 84 is pretty high.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:09]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right here, if I had never met you, I could have already told you, just from looking at this single number, one or both partners feels totally stressed by money. They feel like they\u2019re never going to get ahead. They feel like it\u2019s never enough. They\u2019re probably fighting about money, probably one other partner\u2019s avoiding it. I could see that from the differential in spending between partner 1 and partner 2. And I could name off the type of dynamics happening in the relationship just from the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:39]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now that I\u2019ve met you, we can tell that those are all true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:43]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The problems when it comes to money are not about a one-off concert or a one-off subscription, or eating out. It\u2019s not about that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:55]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:55]\u00a0<strong>Paul:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s about the big numbers that change it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:58]\u00a0<strong>Morgan:<\/strong>\u00a0And our behavior.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Remember that the challenge with Paul and Morgan is that they talk and talk and talk about money, but they never really change much. There\u2019s also the fact that Paul avoids money and Morgan chases after him. So after all the gloom and doom you heard from earlier in the conversation, what do these initial numbers tell you?\u00a0Well, come back next week as we go deeper into their conscious spending plan with even more surprises.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Paul and Morgan, 37 and 33, find themselves in a painful loop of arguments and unchecked spending, putting the future of their young family at risk. We hear about destination concerts, ongoing renovations, and charged vacations\u2014but it\u2019s their fixed cost percentage that is most worrisome. This episode is brought to you by: LMNT | Right [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118911","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118911","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118911"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118911\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118911"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118911"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}