{"id":118912,"date":"2024-04-30T12:41:26","date_gmt":"2024-04-30T16:41:26","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118912"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:30:48","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:30:48","slug":"154-kevin-michelle","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/154-kevin-michelle\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 154. \u201cWe\u2019re drowning in debt, but I drive a BMW\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe\u2019re drowning in debt\u2026but I drive a BMW\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/1-rH2118xt0\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/2rWWjKUGsInzCvyJPHhb2a?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Kevin and Michelle, 32 and 30, joined me live in New York City earlier this year for our very first in-person interview. They have one young child and another on the way, but they can\u2019t stop spending. With low savings, their debt mounts while they both lease luxury vehicles.<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Sidebar | Join thousands of leaders from companies like Microsoft, Amazon, and Meta who have taken the first step towards accelerating their career\u00a0\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/sidebar.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/sidebar.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong><\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions \u2013 and manage your expenses the easy way \u2013 by going to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Links mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/001-alyssa-ilan\/\">&#8220;My husband doesn\u2019t trust me to run our business&#8221; #1<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you discuss money, what actually happens?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s an argument pretty much. We\u2019re just never on the same page about it, I guess. Even though I say I do trust him all the time with finances, I guess I really maybe don\u2019t trust you as much as I thought.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:16]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I always tell myself I\u2019m going to change and do certain things, but then it\u2019s like, I\u2019ll do it for a few weeks, and then I\u2019ll take a couple of steps back. We\u2019re just going to dig our hole deeper. We\u2019re never going to be able to pay off our debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:28]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0And God forbid something happens.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:29]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0God forbid something happens, then we\u2019re really going to be screwed. And then we\u2019re going to\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u00a0are you going to\u00a0do then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:33]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re going to have to sell the house. I don\u2019t know. Move back home. It\u2019s going to be horrible. We\u2019ll both feel really terrible, like we really just failed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:40]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like it was always just easier to push the problems to the side. Just to highlight how that is, tomorrow we have a dinner with her brother and his girlfriend also here in New York City.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:51]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s hard to get the reservation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Good. The tough reservation.\u00a0Which\u00a0restaurant?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:56]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Torrisi.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:57]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Torrisi.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Kevin and Michelle are in their early 30s. They\u2019ve been married for two years with a 3-year-old, and they have another on the way in six months, but they are drowning in debt, and when you hear why, I think you\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0be shocked. I will tell you that my jaw drops several times during our conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:16]\u00a0Kevin and Michelle are textbook examples of the chaser-avoider dynamic. She\u2019s a warrior, and she chases him. He\u2019s an avoider, and he runs. That part is obvious, but I\u2019m more interested in why they behave the way they do now. This is our first ever live recorded episode, which took place in New York City earlier this year.\u00a0Head over to YouTube to watch and subscribe for even more exciting updates coming soon. And make sure to comment and let me know what you think of the new format.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:46]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0She was out of the country with our son and her mom. She went on a cruise. She calls me and tells me, hey, you have to pay our mortgage this day. You have to deposit the money into the account. Being busy and stuff like that, I had never gotten a chance to just go to the bank and deposit the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, how much are we talking about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:04]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It was like $800 or a little bit more maybe. It was just sitting in my car, and she tells me to go deposit it. And she told me that before she left. Now, I didn\u2019t deposit it. I think it was Friday, the 1st, and also one of the days I get paid. So I knew I was getting paid regardless. I didn\u2019t put the money in, but I had just held the cash on hand.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:27]\u00a0So she logs in on the cruise and sees that I haven\u2019t deposited the money. She\u2019s freaking out. I guess in her eyes or in her mind, I had spent that money on something. And I\u2019m like, Michelle, I have the money. I just haven\u2019t had the time to go deposit it. I was like, if you want, I\u2019ll transfer you the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:45]\u00a0But before we got even to that point, she was just so upset and disappointed because she felt like I had let her down. I understood where her frustration was. She was on vacation, she was trying to enjoy herself, and she just felt like she couldn\u2019t even leave me one task and I could complete it. I feel like her approach in certain situations, it\u2019s just like, not aggressive, but she\u2019s just so quick to\u2013 her approach sometimes isn\u2019t the greatest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:12]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Like I\u2019m accusatory to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:14]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Almost. And then I get, I guess, defensive, and then that\u2019s when we have a disagreement.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you pay extra for that internet on the cruise?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:20]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I did. I wasn\u2019t sure I was going to have anything in terms of internet. So I\u2019m like, you need to make sure you pay this. I gave him all the login information for everything because he had not once, since he bought the house, ever paid the mortgage. Because he\u2019ll just send me the money, and then I\u2019ll pay it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:34]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess it\u2019s just how we did it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why? All the decisions you made, the hundreds of decisions you made well before this cruise.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:45]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m the financial person. I\u2019m the one that\u2019s going to handle everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>You are.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:50]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I forgot exactly what I said, but I did say something, so where\u2019s the 2,000, or something like that? And then he probably already\u2013 okay. I understand. He felt accused, so that\u2019s why he maybe felt upset about the whole situation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:03]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I feel like if we were able to pull up those messages, it was more along the lines, I knew I couldn\u2019t trust you with this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Could she?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:10]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0She could because\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It hadn\u2019t been paid, and it was the date.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:14]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:14]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. And it\u2019s really hard because I feel like I\u2019m investing so much time into this. I want him to ask questions. I want him to get engaged into our finances. That\u2019s what I really want.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And how would you describe Kevin\u2019s relationship with family money right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:29]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Not scared of it, but just avoidant. If he\u2019s like, oh, can you send me $100 for this or something? I\u2019m like, yeah, just log into our account and just take it yourself. You don\u2019t have to ask me for $100. Just go get it. And then he is like, well, no, I\u2019ll just wait. You just log in and get it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then what happens?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:48]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Then I log in and send it to him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So doesn\u2019t he just pretty much get what he wants?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:51]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:53]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I guess that\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:56]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve always felt like the finances, even though we are married, obviously it should be very open, but at one point, I thought it should be more private, and I didn\u2019t want to feel like I was being nosy and looking at her stuff. I know what I should be doing, but I still overspend here and there, little things, stopping at a 7-Eleven and just buying water, juice, and stuff. Unnecessary spending. Personally, I don\u2019t know how she feels about that, but I think I\u2019ve been better.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:29]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I wanted to realize you can go to 7-Eleven and get whatever you want. You can go get a slushy. You can go do whatever, buy candy, whatever.\u00a0Nothing\u2019s off the table, but you have to stay within the 25% or whatever it was that your guilt-free spending is. You know what I mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:45]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I have so many things going on currently that my mind is all over the place. So I guess I appreciate having her handle our finances, and I feel like a lot of the stress comes off of my shoulders because I feel sometimes overworked with work and school, two jobs, and then trying to be there for the family at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:06]\u00a0So it feels good to have that pressure off of my shoulders. But then I realized she wants to know that in the future I am going to be good with my money. She wants to make sure that once we are making more money, we\u2019re not just spending it all.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I noticed that Kevin has given up all responsibility of the family finances to Michelle, and Michelle eagerly accepts it. She tries to give him a login, but when he doesn\u2019t even open up the link, she just transfers money over to him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:33]\u00a0He also says, I guess I appreciate her having a handle on our finances. This is a classic phrase. People who don\u2019t want to be involved in the money tend to lavish praise on their partner, saying things like, she\u2019s just better with money, or he knows how to handle our family finances.\u00a0I\u2019m not a math person. But in reality, this is just an unconscious or sometimes conscious technique to avoid responsibility.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:59]\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:00]\u00a0Last thing, the comments about 7-Eleven. He mentions overspending at 7-Eleven a lot. Frankly, I\u2019m skeptical. Nobody gets into tons of debt from 7-Eleven.\u00a0Let me\u00a0keep going and find out how they grew up with money.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Think back to being a kid. What phrases do you remember your parents saying about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:23]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Dad definitely like, save, save, save. That\u2019s too expensive. We can\u2019t eat out. We\u2019ll go to this place we had down the block, and it was just a 12-dollar combo, where we live. It\u2019s a Portuguese food place. And it was the whole family feed, everyone, with $12, and he was so happy about that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.\u00a0How many people in the family?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:50]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, it\u2019s four of us. Yeah. And my mom, not really much. I think my dad was more in control of the finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:56]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0She grew up with both her parents. I grew up with a single mother. Now, my mother worked very hard to provide for myself growing up. But her way of thinking was she would try to provide and give me all these things, not materialistic things, but she would try to give me experiences that she felt would bring us closer together.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:17]\u00a0So she would work her butt off just for us to have a very nice dinner on the weekend. And that would be our thing. We would have one very nice dinner on the weekend. She was almost living paycheck to paycheck, but she would spend that all on me in the sense that she wanted me to have \u201cgood things.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me ask a couple of questions. When you say a very nice dinner, what are we talking about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:43]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We would come into the city and have a dinner at an expensive restaurant or\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like a sit-down restaurant.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Like a sit-down restaurant. It would be a restaurant that, I don\u2019t know, maybe you\u2019d run into a celebrity kind of thing. But she would want me to experience those things, and she\u2019ll be like, hey, we\u2019re going to go out to dinner at this place. And I\u2019d be like, okay. I didn\u2019t know anything about it, but then she would show me a newspaper article where she read about it and stuff. So she was like, yeah, I want to treat you to this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now knowing that, you also mentioned she lived paycheck to paycheck, when you look back on those experiences on the weekend going to these nice restaurants, what do you take away from those experiences?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:22]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think it was worth it. She could have done so much more with that. And it\u2019s funny because she\u2019s older, and I still sit down and have conversations with her, and I tell her these things. I told her we were coming here to the podcast, and I told her about how I don\u2019t think that when I was younger she did the right things financially, and she understands that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did she say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:43]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0She agrees, but she blames it on the fact that she\u2019s an immigrant and doesn\u2019t really speak good English. She could have been more successful if she had understood the language better, and she would\u2019ve been able to do more with her investments and stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:58]\u00a0As a single mother, she was able to buy a house, and we had that house for two to three years, but then she ended up having to sell it because it wasn\u2019t set up for her to be successful or for us to be successful in the house. It was like one of those balloon payment kind of things where she ended up never paying towards the principal of the house, and that was when the market was terrible in 2008, around that time. And she fell victim to those terrible mortgage practices that were going on at the time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you think that she took you to those restaurants now with some perspective?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:32]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0She just wanted to have a good experience together, memories that we would create and we could talk about and say that we did those things, whether it was that, whether it was some vacations and stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:43]\u00a0And it\u2019s funny that I\u2019m terrible with finances because when I was younger, I was the one in charge of handling all her bills. She would give me pretty much access to her paychecks or to her bank accounts, and I was the one, she would tell me, hey, you have to pay this, this, and that on a certain day, certain time, whatever.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on. She would tell you that you have to pay this bill and that bill on this day. Does that happen in your life anywhere else right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:14]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it does.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who does that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:15]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It all came full circle, and it\u2019s the same situation now with my wife.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:20]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0But you did pay the bills for your mom. Why don\u2019t you pay the bills for me?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:23]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ll give you a perfect other example. Our taxes. We just did our taxes. Now, I ask all these questions, and when I ask the questions, she gets annoyed with me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Put yourself in her shoes. Why do you think she might be upset?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:40]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because she feels like I don\u2019t ask the questions the other time. So why am I asking it now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Feels like? Can you give me an analogy?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:49]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels like I\u2019m trying to sit on the sidelines all the time, and now all of a sudden, I want to hop in the game and play.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:56]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Because\u00a0you\u2019re going to get your money. Because you\u2019re going to get a big check.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:58]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, it wasn\u2019t that we were going to go anywhere.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:01]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, no, I know. But that\u2019s my interpretation. You\u2019re expecting a lump sum of money, and then you want to know what to do with it when you didn\u2019t contribute the whole year to the bills or whatever.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels a bit like backseat driving. Let me ask the question a different way. What is a better way for you to change throughout the whole year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:22]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Be more involved.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:24]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Ask the necessary questions. Take initiative. Be a part of paying the bills. Be aware. We need to be on the same page and ask each other the questions. That\u2019s what our goal is here, is to feel comfortable and realize and break those barriers that there should be no, I wouldn\u2019t say secrets, but there shouldn\u2019t be any disconnect when it comes to knowing each other and our finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What would\u2019ve happened if the mortgage had not gotten paid on the first?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:56]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I have no idea. Probably a late fee problem.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think, Kevin?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:03]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably a late fee. Definitely a fight. The trust would\u2019ve been completely gone at that point, I feel like.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Michelle, did you ever think about not checking in on the first?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:16]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0No. I probably was always going to check my account. Because I wasn\u2019t going to check in with him. If I looked at the account and everything looked right, then I would\u2019ve just been happy. But when I looked at it and then there was the 2,000 missing, I\u2019m like, oh, I have a problem. It\u2019s already the first.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:31]\u00a0Like I said, I didn\u2019t have Wi-Fi that day. The crew stopped at the port, and we were leaving Mexico at 3:00 PM, so I\u2019m already spiraling, like, okay, it\u2019s already 1:00 PM. I need to make sure this gets paid before 3:00 so I can rest my head tonight.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Have some peace. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:48]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s one area I want to comment on here, the dynamic of money between them. The way that they have set their money up, Michelle is the parent, and Kevin is the child. He has to ask for money to be transferred to him. He doesn\u2019t do much because his parent, excuse me, his wife, Michelle, handles everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:07]\u00a0This is insanely frustrating to her, and understandably so, but of course, she\u2019s co-created this dynamic. At one point I said, what would\u2019ve happened if the mortgage hadn\u2019t gotten paid? And what I was really looking for was what kind of boundaries Michelle has ever set? What kind of consequences would he face?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:27]\u00a0But the answer was none. Michelle would never let that happen, which is why she was logging on to check if her husband paid the mortgage as she asked him to from thousands of miles away on her vacation. But why would he change? There\u2019s no reason for him to, I\u2019m not saying this is right. I\u2019m simply demonstrating that people will often rise or fall to the level of expectation around them.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you discuss money, what actually happens?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:55]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s an argument pretty much.\u00a0We\u2019re just never on the same page about it, I guess, kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Go deeper. Who\u2019s the one who brings it up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:04]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. Who\u2019s the one who makes the decision?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:09]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When was the first time that you remember sitting down and having a serious conversation about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:17]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I think the first time I ever really even did that, honestly, from my records, was December of 2023. Literally, just recently.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:27]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I started listening to the podcast.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:30]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No one ever has thought of us as struggling or stuff with our money. I feel like everybody just assumes we\u2019re good with money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you need to struggle in order to plan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Definitely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:44]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, no, now that we\u2019ve gotten to this place where we realize we need to discuss our finances, I don\u2019t think we should struggle in order to plan. I think we should plan so that we don\u2019t struggle. That is the goal for both of us. But again, it\u2019s easy to say these things, but putting action down and actually doing the things that need to be done is where I lack the most.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s your reaction to all these \u201cdiscussions\u201d?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:16]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Defensive, almost like, let\u2019s get this over with and move on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:21]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I don\u2019t like to hear the facts almost.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:26]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I don\u2019t feel like I am leading like I would like to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, you\u2019re not leading. You\u2019re not even in the ball game.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:33]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else? Why are you not participating in these conversations?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:37]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I don\u2019t feel comfortable almost. I feel like she doesn\u2019t trust me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think there\u2019s a\u2013 rightfully so.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:47]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else? Is there any reason for you to participate in this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, there should be.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not saying is there should be. I\u2019m saying is there? You ask her, can you transfer me $100? She says something, and then a week later transfers you $100. You get what you want. She says, let\u2019s talk about X. You say, great. You sit back, wait for her to finish talking, and then it gets handled.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:13]\u00a0Mortgage payment, she tells you to do it. You don\u2019t do it, and then she calls, while you\u2019re getting defensive, reminding you to do it. I\u2019ll ask again. Is there any reason for you to participate in the finances?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:26]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s never been established. And anytime there\u2019s a financial challenge or question, who\u2019s the one taking on the burden? Look at me putting an additional five-pound weight on my back every single time there\u2019s an issue. Who\u2019s doing that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Michelle.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Michelle. No consequence, no burden, really living a very great life, honestly. I see something, I get it. Not my problem.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:52]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why would anyone change? Why would they? I would love to be in that position where I\u2019m just like, oh, I get it, and someone else deals with the problems.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:59]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. That\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Kevin, was the chance where you failed and faced the consequences with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:09]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I went to college right out of high school. I had no debt. I had gotten pretty much grants, and a scholarship, and stuff like that. So I went to college, and I ended up not doing exactly what I needed to do. I took college almost as a joke. My first year, I did terrible, and my mom decided to just retire. And she moved back to Columbia, and she told me, you need to grow up and figure it out kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:39]\u00a0So she left, and I kept my apartment that we had. I think I was paying 1,500 a month, which at the time was a lot. It was a two-bedroom, nice area. So I ended up having one of my friends move in with me. And for the first few months, it was great. Everything was working out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:57]\u00a0But then I started getting reckless with my spending habits, and I started spending it on partying and just going out all the time, and stuff like that. And then he ended up moving out, and I started falling behind on payments, and it got to a point where I almost got evicted and almost lost that apartment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:12]\u00a0So at the time, it was frustrating. I was stressed out, and I was disappointed in myself. It was terrible because the apartment was in my mom\u2019s name. So I messed up her credit with that. It wasn\u2019t mine that got messed up, but at that point, it was almost like she couldn\u2019t trust me financially either.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:34]\u00a0That was the start of, I guess, the same old habits. It was a situation where I wasn\u2019t trusted to stay there. Things got tough for me, and that\u2019s where I had to dig deep and really change a lot of my habits, and stuff like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s what it took for you to change your habits?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:51]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And my mom told me that. She told me I would hit rock bottom.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. I wonder if there\u2019s any relevance to this situation right now. Anybody?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:59]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:02]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I guess I\u2019ll try to convince him to care, but in the wrong way, like you said. Ask me that any questions you have, or here, just pay this mortgage payment. We don\u2019t really talk about it. It\u2019s just like, I give him a task to complete, and then I\u2019m like, okay, here, do this. But it\u2019s not like we\u2019re talking about it. I\u2019m just telling him what to do, so that\u2019s not really fair either.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:26]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, because that\u2019s where I feel just exactly how she said. It almost feels like she\u2019s giving me tasks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0She is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:34]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0And then we talked about how it almost feels like\u2013 and I\u2019ve told her this. It almost feels like you\u2019re my mother, but I shouldn\u2019t have to feel like that because you\u2019re my partner. We\u2019re a team. We should be doing this together.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:46]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Even though I say I do trust him all the time with finances, I guess I really maybe don\u2019t trust you as much as I thought I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. What does that feel like to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:56]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels exactly how I\u2019ve always thought of that situation. I\u2019ve always felt like she didn\u2019t trust me with the finances. I know I\u2019ve given her reasons in the past to not trust me, but I want her to know that everybody could change, everybody could evolve and grow and learn, and that\u2019s what I want.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:12]\u00a0That\u2019s where I\u2019m trying to get to because besides those tough financial conversations, everything else is great. So I want us to be great in every aspect. And yeah, we\u2019re going to have tough times, and we\u2019re going to struggle here and there, but I\u2019ve always been confident that together we could do whatever.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Just so I\u2019m clear, besides the way that you talk about money, everything else financially is good?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I would think so, yeah. In my opinion.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much debt do you have?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:46]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Oof.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We are\u00a0going to\u00a0get back to the answer to that question, but trust me when I say everything is not good. Sometimes I read the comments on this podcast, and people really want me to just blast one or both of the guests who come on this show. And it would be easy for me to sit here and scream at Kevin for not taking on a leadership role or really any role at all in his family finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:25]\u00a0I always ask myself, do I\u00a0want to\u00a0feel good about myself, or do I\u00a0want to\u00a0help this couple? If I simply wanted to shame people about their money, I would not be doing what I do. Anyone can bring a couple on, shriek at them for how much they spend on eating out, slap an ultra-offensive thumbnail up and call it a day. That\u2019s not what I\u00a0want to\u00a0do.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:49]\u00a0And in the past, I have lost my temper on this show. There were a few instances where I heard something so wrong or so offensive that I just let loose.\u00a0It happened on Episode 1 and several other places, but it rarely helps. Yelling at someone is what some people in the audience want, but I find it intellectually lazy, and I find it unhelpful. And I know that because personally, if I needed help with something, the last thing I would want is to be yelled at.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:20]\u00a0It\u2019s much more interesting, in my opinion, to examine the money dynamic between Michelle and Kevin. Why has Kevin abdicated all responsibility for money? Because he faces no consequences, and because Michelle handles everything for him. Me saying that does not mean I\u2019m blaming Michelle, but I am acknowledging the very real dynamic that exists between them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:40]\u00a0The only way for them to change is to truly, deeply understand the dynamic that they have co-created, and for both of them to decide they want to change it. But trust me, yelling at someone does not change their behavior.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:57]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick pause for a message from our sponsors.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:02]\u00a0Now back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:03]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0So he was working as a maintenance manager. We did not have a housing cost because he was doing that. And as part of his salary, we would get free rent. So also, at the time, it was during COVID.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:16]\u00a0So it was like we were making a lot of money, and we weren\u2019t paying rent. It was like we didn\u2019t have to talk about money. Not that we didn\u2019t have to, but it was whatever. It was like, oh, Michelle, I want to buy this PlayStation 5. Yeah. Here, go buy it. It was no questions asked. But then when he did make that career change, and we did move, we bought a house, so many things happened. It was like, okay, now what do we do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did you do with all that extra money you had during that time?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:44]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0We had a wedding. We used a lot of it for the wedding. We went on a honeymoon to Barcelona. We paid for our son\u2019s formula, diapers, and stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did the wedding cost?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:03]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s not a real answer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say about 90,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:09]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a090. That\u2019s a good number. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How come you don\u2019t know the number?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:13]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, there was a number on a spreadsheet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which you quickly exceeded, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:18]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. The figures changed with unexpected costs about the wedding, whether it was invitations or\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve heard that happens.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:27]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:28]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. There was just a lot of other expenses.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:31]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0And it wasn\u2019t even unexpected cost. We knew what the cost was going to be, but then out of nowhere, COVID came down, so I took a pay cut at my job. He obviously took a pay cut at his job, so it was less income and increased money that we had to spend. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0In my mind, I felt almost like school at this point in our life wasn\u2019t even worth it. I almost felt like I should have stayed in property management and kept doing what I was doing.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:57]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0This is another classic mistake. People decide to make a major purchase without factoring in phantom costs and assuming everything is\u00a0going to\u00a0be perfect, and then something happens, like a job loss, but they don\u2019t adjust their spending. By the time they realize they\u2019re in trouble, it\u2019s too late. Let\u2019s look at their conscious spending plan\u00a0now. You can download your own CSP template to follow along at iwt.com\/csp.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:23]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I got home, I would say, probably an hour before her, so I went ahead, and I wrote down all my spending and everything. So I had everything ready.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Nice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:32]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0But then I thought it was wrong, and I just went and checked it anyway.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you didn\u2019t trust him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:36]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:37]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I just sat down. I was, okay, well, this is what I have on the\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me pause you right there. So you started off the meeting by you taking the initiative. Hmm. I wonder if that perpetuates any dynamics. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:51]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yeah, I think it does. I started out excited, but then I just became homework real quick because it was getting late, and then I knew we had to have it submitted, and I just\u2013 we weren\u2019t talking too much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. At first, to be honest, I saw it, I guess, as homework, but after, I was excited about it because as much as it doesn\u2019t seem like I want to discuss, have those tough conversations, it was nice to actually see the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:22]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Basically, I just asked him for his\u2013 because he had a couple of debts, I was like, oh, what are the amounts on those? What do you owe in your car payment? Okay, thanks. And then I just plugged the numbers in, and then I said, do you have any questions?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did his fingers touch the keyboard?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:40]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I don\u2019t think they did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I want her to understand that I could be trusted. As much as I haven\u2019t proved to be able to, I want her to understand that I\u2019m very capable to lead and explain to her like, these are the numbers that I came up with. Let\u2019s go over your numbers, and then if you think that we\u2019re wrong, let\u2019s talk about it and figure it out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How does that sound?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:02]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019d be nice to hear you say something during the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ll tell you what, it\u2019s really impressive that you prepared the numbers. I really like that. I think that going that last step is where you really get all the benefits of doing the work. And then you come, you say, you know what? I realized that I want to take more of a leadership role when it comes to money in our family, so I know I got to work on it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:28]\u00a0Here\u2019s what I did. I went through my numbers. I analyzed this. I might be off on a couple of them, but I\u2019d love to talk to you about it. But here they are. I wonder if we can go through them together. How do you think that would\u2019ve gone over?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that sounds great. I think that would\u2019ve worked perfectly. And honestly, I feel like she would\u2019ve appreciated that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think so too. What do you think, Michelle?<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:47]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m giving you a big kiss.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Let\u2019s see. Michelle, let\u2019s do the net worth. Can you read the word in bold and then the number in full next to it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:00]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure. Under assets there\u2019s $251,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Okay. Next.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:03]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I keep going. Okay. So investments is $43,700. Savings is $500, and debt, $628,500<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Total net worth?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:16]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Negative $333,300.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What do you think about that number?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:22]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Not where I want it to be.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:22]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Nowhere near where it should be.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So the 251,000 is your house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:30]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:30]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And your investments, fine. Savings, okay. And your debt, break that down for me. $628,000 of debt. What is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:39]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0So 414,000 is the mortgage. 30,000 is my car. 69,000 is Kevin\u2019s car. My student loan\u2019s 18,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:55]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Mine are about 12,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:02]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Credit card debt, about 73,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a073,000 in credit card debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:09]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. So one of them is a loan for 55,000, and the credit card debt\u2019s 18,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the loan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:17]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a consolidation of all the other credit card debt, so that\u2019s why I put it all under the same.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019s the interest rate on that consolidation? Do you know?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:28]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a017%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. It\u2019s effectively credit card.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:31]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How come we spent so much time talking about 7-Eleven snacks but we\u2019re over here with over $70,000 of credit card, a 69,000-dollar car loan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:45]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. Yeah, I knew that was coming. I don\u2019t even know why we got that car, to be honest. Because we did the math on it, and we couldn\u2019t afford it. And then I don\u2019t know what happened, and we\u2013 not that I don\u2019t know what happened. I know what happened.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>What happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:01]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>We still went for it because I was just being an enabler, and I said, yeah, it\u2019s okay. We\u2019ll figure out how to make it work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And when you figure it out, who do you become in the relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:13]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0The hero.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And by the way, what kind of car was it, Kevin?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:18]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I have a BMW.\u00a0A lot of this was before I took that pay cut, but now that I have taken that pay cut, it\u2019s so ridiculous, and I know I have to get out of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So how come you haven\u2019t?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:33]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Because then we\u2019ll take a loss. I mean, regardless.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:37]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.\u00a0So the reason\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:39]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0What was the worth of the car or whatever? You did the Kelly Blue.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:43]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So the car\u2019s valued at about 48,000, and 69 is what I owe on it. So I definitely would take a loss, but we haven\u2019t taken the time to go in and figure out what our best option is, to be honest. The reason I stayed with them\u2013 so I had a BMW previously. Hers is a Mercedes. So we both have luxury vehicles that we both have no reason to be in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You have a BMW and a Mercedes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:11]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s literally half of our income.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. And those cars also take some pretty expensive gas, huh?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:18]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0That is why I say I spend a lot of money on gas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How come you got the cars? That\u2019s what I\u2019m curious about.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:26]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. I\u2019ve always had a luxury car since I was younger.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s a good reason to\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:31]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, because my dad always had a luxury car too. I don\u2019t know, it just seemed like an asset that you had that. It made you feel good because you work so hard. You want to have a nice car.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:42]\u00a0So I\u2019ve always liked to have a nice car. This is getting into specifics, but I had a Lexus RX 500. It was paid off. It was great. It was fine. And one day, I don\u2019t know what happened. We walked into a dealership, and we were looking at cars, and there was a really nice M series BMW.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:03]\u00a0So I traded in my Lexus for the BMW that was on a lease. So then after that, we were having a baby. It was too small for the baby and everything, so that\u2019s why I decided on the Mercedes. It was bigger.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on, hold on. This is classic Americana in the worst ways. First of all, a luxury. How much were you making at the time where you had that Lexus?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:28]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe 60,000, $70,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Thank you. This is making my story even better. Making $70,000 a year, buying a Lexus. Basically, spending 100% of your salary on a car. Then you go, hey, this car\u2019s paid off. I know what I\u2019m going to do. I\u2019m going to incur more payments.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:44]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It was the worst thing I ever did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you go in there. And then the minute you have a baby, what does every single parent in America do? We need a house and an SUV. Why? Because our little infant that can\u2019t even move needs to around.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:00]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yeah, I know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And so you go, you buy 1, 2, 3 things. Income goes down. One of you goes to school, one of you takes time back from work, etc. So you have these skyrocketing costs, lower income. Heavier costs with the baby. And now what happens? You\u2019re trapped.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:18]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Stuck. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You have car payments and transportation of $2,495 a month. That\u2019s one of the highest I\u2019ve ever seen.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:28]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:29]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s the car payment plus gas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:32]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0So I had a BMW before, and it was a lease. That\u2019s when I really started taking coaching seriously and almost took it as a second full-time job. And I didn\u2019t account for how much I\u2019d be traveling. So at first, I had, I think it was a 10,000-mile lease, and I was way over my miles.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:55]\u00a0Then I had someone sideswipe me on the car, and there was like a hit and run kind of situation. I started realizing that I was going to be way over my miles, and I decided I had to go get a new car. So I went in\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What the hell? What?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:08]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why did you make that decision?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:10]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I knew I was going to get screwed in the end. So now that I think about it, we\u2019ve been acknowledging this. I got screwed even worse. So what happened was\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But you screwed yourself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:22]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, definitely. So I started going to many car dealerships. I was not trying to go luxury, but what the issue I kept running into was the only dealership that would give me the highest cost of my car was BMW if I stayed with them. Every other car company wasn\u2019t giving me anywhere near what the car was worth. So I ended up rolling all that negative equity into this new car payment and financed it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, the good news is that the car dealers of America love both of you because you\u2019re exactly what they want. They will run you into the ground if they can.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:58]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And all the reasons they gave you\u2013 let me tell you all the ways that you pursued this that I would not have. First of all, I got a BMW when you couldn\u2019t afford it. Two, a lease. Why a lease?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:11]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, the first one was a lease. This one\u2019s not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why? There\u2019s no reason. There\u2019s only two people who should get a lease. One, if you\u2019re incredibly wealthy. Two, if you have some type of business where this could be considered a business expense. There\u2019s zero reason to have a lease, especially for A BMW or a luxury car when you don\u2019t have the money for it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:28]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You are exactly who they love. And then third, you take it and cash it in early and roll it over, like 1, 2, 3. Perfect for the car dealers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:39]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Terrible for myself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:40]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And again, we\u2019re spending hours talking about 7-Eleven, when the house is burning down on here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:51]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Another thing that we tend to do that I was telling her we need to stop doing is taking vacations. We take a lot of\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on, we\u2019ll get to that in a second. How about the mortgage?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:02]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0We owe $414,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the interest rate?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:07]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a06.25.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:08]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why\u2019d you buy a house?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:09]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Because we needed to establish roots somewhere.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Huh? What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:16]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, one, I was getting out of the whole property management thing, so I had gotten out of that. So I would\u2019ve lost the 50% discount that I was getting. The apartment where I was working and living, I think that apartment was 3,200 if we had to pay it. So instead of paying 3,200 towards rent, we figured 3,700 on a mortgage would be way better.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The 3,700 plus. What are all the phantom costs when it comes to housing? Y\u2019all had any repairs recently?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:47]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. We did a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We renovated the whole house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:51]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0About 80,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:54]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m just counting all the different industries that love you. Car Dealers of America, home renovators of America, Home Depot of America.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:04]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0We don\u2019t have a Home Depot card, though.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:08]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0The mortgage lenders love us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the thing about vacations you mentioned Kevin?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:12]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like Michelle loves taking vacations. It\u2019ll be a weekend thing. It\u2019ll be a one-week thing. And I get it. I love to travel. We both love to travel, so yes, we want to explore the world and do all these things. And she\u2019s like, well, we can afford to do it, so why not? We should do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where was the last place you went?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:38]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Austin. Was it Austin?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Bahamas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No, Bahamas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s nice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:45]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0But after that, she was just on the cruise that she just went on with her mom and\u00a0Enzo.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When she suggests these vacation spots, how does it make you feel, Kevin?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0My first reactions is like, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s necessary. Then obviously, I enjoy it. I have a great time. Who wouldn\u2019t? But I\u2019m hesitant. I\u2019m really actually hesitant because I don\u2019t feel like it\u2019s necessary in that moment, or I don\u2019t feel like it\u2019s the right time because there\u2019s been situations where we took these vacations and I had to take off from work, so now I\u2019m missing out on money that I could be making. And a lot of the times I\u2019ve expressed that to her. I got to cancel coaching. I got to do this and stuff and move things around.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How did she respond?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:24]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll figure it out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:25]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I feel like where he may overspend with the little things, it is my biggest problem, feeling the need to go on vacation because I see a cheap flight, and I\u2019m like, oh, well look, I\u2019m going to buy this cheap flight. But then of course comes other costs, like the hotel might not be as cheap, and then of course the food and whatever else comes with it. So I think I get lured in by that, small, like, oh my gosh, the flight\u2019s $80. We have to go. But it\u2019s not $80.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0In total, how many vacations do you take a year?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:02]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe three.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Round up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Last year we took about 10.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, it\u2019s my math exactly. I say take whatever it is and triple it. However much you say you eat, triple it. However much you say you take vacation, triple it. It never fails.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:22]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, last year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Everybody make a note. Ramit\u2019s rule number 318, vacations. Whatever you say you spend triple it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:30]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you pay for all this stuff when you go to the Bahamas?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:34]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, the flight, I usually use Miles. And then the hotel, I\u2019ll get through my job. They have discounts, so I\u2019ll get a discount through my job, but I\u2019ll pay that on the debit card. But when we get there, it\u2019s a free for all. I\u2019ll just use a credit card. And we have a lot of credit card debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Banks and credit cards love you too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:53]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. They all love us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:55]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. I don\u2019t know. Truly, we\u2019re in a really bad financial position, and I think we need to come up\u2013 well, I hope that our plan to get out of it works well and that we can keep our house and keep everything running smoothly and that nothing happens to either one of us in the next two years, because if it does, we\u2019re screwed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The next two years where you have a new baby coming and your little one\u2019s going to be getting older?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:23]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me just ask to refresh your memory. How much do you have in savings right now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:27]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0$500.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How long would that last you if one of you lost your job?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:31]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Not even a week.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:33]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0A day.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:33]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I think it\u2019s scary. I think reality is really setting in now.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, I\u2019m at a loss. We spent almost an hour talking about 7-Eleven snacks and Kevin not paying the mortgage, and then we look at the numbers and find two luxury cars, $80,000 of credit card debt, tens of thousands of dollars on a home renovation, and literally 10 vacations last year. It\u2019s almost hard to believe, but it\u2019s real.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:02]\u00a0There are a lot of people like this in America. They make a nice income, but they spend every last cent. And rather than looking at the real problem, which would invariably require a total lifestyle shift, they pick out one random area and fixate on it. At this point in my conversation, I\u2019m still not sure how serious they are about changing.\u00a0We\u2019ll see.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:27]\u00a0Here, by the way, are the income numbers for Kevin and Michelle.\u00a0Kevin makes $4,000 a month gross. Remember that he\u2019s in school. Plans to make more soon. Michelle makes $14,000 a month gross. She\u2019s a nurse practitioner and adjunct professor. They, combined, have a household income of $216,000, which is a very good income, meaning they probably have some options. Let\u2019s take a look.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0$216,000 is a lot of money, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:55]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You would think so.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:55]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, exactly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Regardless of where you live, that\u2019s a lot of money. So what do you think\u2019s going on here where it feels so tight? Michelle, I\u2019m going to ask you because you manage the money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:09]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So when I go through the fixed costs, I don\u2019t think it\u2019s the housing because it\u2019s under whatever it is, the 28%, I believe. But I know the car payment, transportation, the gas, the car insurance, that\u2019s a big one. And we\u2019re aggressively trying to pay off the credit card debt, so that\u2019s another huge one for fixed costs. So that\u2019s why I think it\u2019s so tight right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:36]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels like we\u2019re fine, I guess because she does always take on that role to make sure that we\u2019re fine. The reason I feel like we\u2019re fine is because we don\u2019t miss our payments. So in my eyes, we\u2019re fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a pretty low bar. How do you think she receives it when you tell her that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably doesn\u2019t believe it. How do you feel about it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:58]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I feel almost like, okay. Not like, who are you to say that? But like, yeah. Again, you\u2019ve not been involved in it, and I thought that you seeing it on paper would make you feel like, whoa, we do need to change. But it didn\u2019t, so then I\u2019m more concerned.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s honest. I thought this would finally be the moment that he gets it. Not only does he not get it now, he\u2019s sitting over here reassuring me, telling me it\u2019s going to be okay. Is he ever going to get it? He\u2019s not engaged. He\u2019s not working on this. I give him one assignment, and he doesn\u2019t do it, and so I have to call. Now he\u2019s trying to smooth things over, telling me it\u2019s going to be okay? It would make me wonder if we\u2019re ever going to be on the same page.\u00a0Those are my words. Can we look line by line at your fixed costs? Okay. So Michelle, what\u2019s this number here next to your combined fixed costs?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:04]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a073%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what do you think about that number?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:07]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s high.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it\u2019s high. Let\u2019s just do the rest of these categories, and then we\u2019ll break down into your fixed costs. Investments, what numbers here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:15]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a03%. I think that\u2019s low.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Savings goals?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:21]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a04% combined.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And your guilt-free spending?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:27]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a019%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which I don\u2019t really believe. You think this number\u2019s higher?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:32]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I think it\u2019s lower.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm. Can\u2019t be lower because where would the rest of the money be going?\u00a0Where is it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:41]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0At 7-Eleven.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0At 7-Eleven.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:42]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Just kidding. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How would you characterize my reaction to these numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:50]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly how I expected it to be because it\u2019s not okay, and you\u2019re realistic.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what are you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:56]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m living a fantasy over here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:59]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I just haven\u2019t sat down and really thought about reality. I haven\u2019t sat down and realized that we\u2019re struggling.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:08]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I\u2019ve always had Michelle who protected us and took care of the bigger issues and stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Michelle, do you see what has happened here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:19]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. He\u2019s saying what he\u2019s saying, and then I\u2019m supposed to be the protector, but in fact, I actually mess things up even more by saying, yeah, we should get those cars. We should do that. I\u2019m to blame as well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. So both of you are enabling each other.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:33]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:34]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re both guilty of it. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hurdling towards disaster.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:38]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you hear the alarm in my voice?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:43]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like it was always just easier to push the problems to the side.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you get that to change?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:50]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Besides ask the questions, become more involved. Take the initiative to\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You would\u2019ve already done that. If that\u2019s all it took, you would\u2019ve done that. You\u2019ve been together for a long time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:03]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What needs to change in order for you to change?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0My mentality?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:09]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Digging deep and realizing where my issues are and understanding and reflecting. Just saying is not going to do anything. And then thinking of the worst-case scenario, if I continue these habits, how it could affect my son and our soon-to-be-here child also.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You coach soccer?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:30]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How old are the kids?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:32]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0All ages. So I coach a high school girls\u2019 varsity team that I just got that job actually, so I haven\u2019t started with them till the fall.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:40]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I also work at a lead academy that is top in this area and in the US, and there I coach kids. Youngest I\u2019ve worked with there right now currently is probably eight-year-olds, and then it goes up to high school.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s talk about that. Okay. I used to be a soccer referee. So when you get into the older kids, especially at an elite place, they\u2019re serious.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:05]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, they are.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re not messing around.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:06]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Let\u2019s say you take one of your under 15 kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:10]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re acting up at practice. They\u2019re not doing what they need to do. They\u2019re talking back to you. What do you do when game time comes around?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:21]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0They get limited playing time. And then where I am, parents will ask you, and I\u2019m very quick to let them know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, what do you say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:29]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I actually just had this happen recently. So I told them, I\u2019m like, listen, they play 9v9 right now. I have 19 kids on my team. 12 get rostered. So seven kids weren\u2019t rostered. And I had the one parent reach out to me and ask me, hey, what happened? They said that their child was working hard at practice. And I explained to them, your child was working hard at practice, but they\u2019ve been distracting all the other kids on the team.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:51]\u00a0They are fooling around a lot of the time. And unfortunately, their mentality wasn\u2019t there. And I bring it up to them, the kids themselves, and I try to\u2013 it\u2019s funny that I\u2019m about to say this because now I\u2019m like, this is\u2013 it is just so funny. But I tell them that I want to teach them to hold themselves accountable.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:14]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>For their actions. And even at a young age, I try to teach them that because not only am I teaching them soccer, but I\u2019m trying to teach them life lessons that they could take with them forever. And I want them to be able to grow as young men and young women. And I want them to be successful in every aspect of their life. So I treat them like adults. I ask them the tough questions that they probably don\u2019t want to hear.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re a good coach, would you say that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:39]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Excellent.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that answer. I love the confidence. Great. Okay, so I\u2019m talking to a good soccer coach here. You know what it takes to create a player who cares, who wants to be better, etc.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:51]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Who works hard.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You also know that you have to set some boundaries, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:55]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Now apply that to your own relationship with your family money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:59]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019ve tried to dig deep. Michelle said, hey, I want you to care. You don\u2019t. What\u2019s the solution?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:10]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0The solution is just changing, just literally becoming disciplined.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Isn\u2019t that what you try to tell your students and some of them listen and some don\u2019t? How long has she told you, be better, get involved?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:25]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. For about a year or two now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the next step?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:30]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0He needs to prioritize\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe it\u2019s not about him. You\u2019re the coach right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:44]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you need to do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:47]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Go in a different direction.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:51]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t want to cut him from the team.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can\u2019t cut him from the team. We\u2019re not talking about that. But there\u2019s something else, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:58]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:59]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Change.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The next step is boundaries. Because we can\u2019t just sit here and berate each other and berate ourselves and say like, I got to be better. You need to be better. That doesn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:09]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. It\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right now, you have no reason to be motivated. Why would you? You get playing time every single week no matter what. You\u2019re very responsive to crystal clear boundaries. Michelle?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:25]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I think maybe set some boundaries. I don\u2019t even know how to do that, to be honest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s okay. That\u2019s what we\u2019re here for.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:40]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0How about you send me the money and I pay the bills instead of me sending you the money?\u00a0You saw her face, though? You saw her face?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I like that. That\u2019s a good\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:47]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a big change for me right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe you\u2019re not comfortable with that, but I like that. That suggestion\u2019s pretty bold.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:52]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Cool.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Split the finances.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:54]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that a good idea?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:56]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Hey, I\u2019ll handle these five bills. You handle these five bills.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. I like it. Okay. That\u2019s definitely one option. Great. Put it on the table. What else? Let\u2019s get a few of here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:06]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We eat out a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like how much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:08]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0At least twice a week or once a week.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No couple ever says to me, we eat out a lot, and then the other one goes once a week. No way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:14]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0At least on the weekends. We\u2019ve been way better.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:16]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve been way better since we did this, to be honest. But besides that, no. And it\u2019s not like we\u2019re having cheap meals. And just to highlight how that is, tomorrow we have a dinner with her brother and his girlfriend also here in New York City.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:32]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s hard to get the reservation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Good. The tough reservation. Which restaurant?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:37]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Torrisi<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:38]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Torrisi.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. For everyone who doesn\u2019t know, just look to the camera and tell them what kind of restaurant is Torrisi.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:45]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Fancy Italian restaurant.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:46]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ll put it this way. David Beckham\u2019s all over Instagram or social media for being there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Would you say that it\u2019s a hot restaurant?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:53]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re like, but it\u2019s a super hard res.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:57]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Right. We got one. We have to go.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much do you think it\u2019ll be?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:02]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, she can\u2019t drink now, but I already know that we have a 250 minimum, I think, that we have to spend.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:08]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0No, we were going to spend that. I think it\u2019s $500 maybe.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:11]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I would say at least 500.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0For the two of you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:13]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0No, for everyone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:13]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0For all four.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then you\u2019re driving into the city parking. So we\u2019re looking at 350, something like that, minimum.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:24]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that makes sense.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:25]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Fair. All for an experience.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I got a question. Yeah. In a way, it reminds me of your mom taking you into the city, going to the hard-to-get-res that\u2019s in the paper. Is this not exactly the thing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:39]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then what did you tell your mom? Later in life, you\u2019re like, mom, looking back, I think\u2013 what\u2019d you say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:45]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We shouldn\u2019t have done that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:47]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I look at it the wrong way because, like Ramit mentioned, okay, the toll. We\u2019re going to pay the toll. We\u2019re going to pay the parking. We\u2019re going to pay all this stuff that I wouldn\u2019t even take into account because I\u2019m just thinking, oh, well, we already each paid $50 for the reservation. We\u2019re going to lose the $50. I don\u2019t want to do something and feel bad about doing it. I want to go knowing that, wow, we were able to go because we could afford it this month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I tell you something?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:10]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Couples who make $216,000 should not be thinking about being able to afford something this month. If you made $50,000 a year, okay. We\u2019d be talking on a monthly basis. Making over $200,000 a year and being concerned if you can afford a meal, that\u2019s a problem. You\u2019re playing smaller than your income suggests you should be. And the reason you\u2019re playing smaller, you have to play smaller is why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:38]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Because our fixed costs are really high.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. Your fixed costs are super high. So therefore, your obsessing over haircuts and snacks is not the point. That\u2019s a total distraction from what\u2019s really going on here, which is the house is burning down.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:55]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Your phone is $330 a month. Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:58]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Because everyone\u2019s on the phone payment plan.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:04]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0For just us two, it was 200 something. So I put his mom, my mom, my dad, my dad\u2019s wife, my brother, me, and Kevin on it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why did you do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:15]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0They were all also paying a lot of money, so if we all combined, it made sense that everyone just gives me for their phone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did they do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:25]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0My dad does.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How about the other 19 people on the plan?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:28]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I feel bad asking my mom because she takes care of our son. We pay no childcare fee or anything. My brother, he could probably pay me, but it\u2019s $30. So I\u2019m like, all right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No, she\u2019s just too nice because I\u2019ve told her, I\u2019m like, listen, let me know exactly how much I owe you for my mom and myself. You just got to let me know, and I\u2019ll send it to you. She said, don\u2019t worry, just focus on your other bills.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because when you are nice you are?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:56]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Saving people.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re the hero. Do you see how that comes out in so many different places in your life, financially and probably otherwise?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:05]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yeah, that\u2019s a problem I have. I will agree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0People pleaser?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:09]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And the thing is, you\u2019re actually just playing small.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:11]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Shows up in other parts of life too, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:14]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:15]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we\u2019re both people pleasers. That\u2019s a lot of our biggest issue.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? If you were a people pleaser, you would have been pleasing Michelle by taking on 50% of the finances. You\u2019re not a people pleaser, not when it comes to finance. You\u2019re deeply avoidant.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:33]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:33]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Very true.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what\u2019s up? Do you all see that this isn\u2019t just one person here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:37]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Kevin, you\u2019re avoidant. It\u2019s like a water off a duck\u2019s back. Any financial thing that comes in, you\u2019re just like, great. Goes right off my back. Michelle, you pick it up so much. You internalize this idea of yourself as? What is your identity when it comes to money in your relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:56]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0The person that will handle it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. The person that handles it. Good. What else? Keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:02]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, the money expert in our relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good. The expert. And when you solve it and you save the day, you ever save the day when it comes to money? Where are we supposed to find the money for this or that? What do we call the person who saves the day?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:15]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0The hero.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:17]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Hero, right. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You don\u2019t feel good about that? You sure?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:19]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. I guess I subconsciously do, but in reality, I\u2019m just looking at myself like, well, I had to sacrifice on this, that, and the other.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what do you do It? You must be getting something out of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:33]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m just the good person. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And if you were to say no to your husband, what does that make you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:42]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0The villain.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:44]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think about that? That\u2019s powerful. The villain. That\u2019s not just a bad person, the villain.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think she should feel that way, but that doesn\u2019t make me feel good that she does feel like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. And yet you ask her two days ahead of getting paid for $100, and you don\u2019t even transfer it yourself. You wait for her to do it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:05]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So in a way, the dynamic here turns her into the villain, the one that you are participating in. But Michelle, you also actively participate. You two have co-created this dynamic.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:19]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right, right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. It\u2019s like a knot. And when one pulls on it, what happens to the knot?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:25]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s tighter and tighter.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:28]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And the\u00a0more he avoids it, the more you say, I really want you to dig deep and participate. But that\u2019s just words.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:37]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0The only thing that causes change in a scenario like this is actually boundaries. And you know that because it happened to you in your life. That\u2019s the only thing that got you to change. Took years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:48]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It feels uncomfortable because it\u2019s like you\u2019re almost taking X-ray glasses to your own relationship. You two are the same people you were walking in here, but you\u2019re just seeing your relationship with a new lens, and sometimes it\u2019s uncomfortable because you\u2019re like, oh, what we thought was quite simple, we just need this one little budgeting tip, and then you realize there\u2019s a knot here that\u2019s incredibly complex. And if we try to get out of it the way we\u2019ve tried, it just gets tighter.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:20]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not going to work. And that\u2019s the thing too, because I feel like we keep coming back to, oh, well this is just temporary. In two years, I\u2019ll have my degree, but it\u2019s not because the way we\u2019re thinking about it. Our mindset isn\u2019t there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s right. That\u2019s right. That\u2019s a great insight. You keep having these temporary things that come up. We just had our son. It\u2019s going to be tough for a while. I just went back to school. It\u2019s going to be tough for a while. It\u2019s going to be tough for a while forever unless you change the dynamic.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:46]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you want to do? Again, it\u2019s up to you. It\u2019s your money. It\u2019s your res. It\u2019s up to you. What do you want to do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:55]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think we should go.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How come?<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:58]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We just can\u2019t afford it right now. We have to worry about other things.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:04]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I don\u2019t think we should go either.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:07]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Because we truly can\u2019t afford it. We would just be digging ourselves in a deeper hole that we\u2019re trying to get out of. And it goes back to everything you were saying, like we\u2019re just going in a circle here. So it takes a boundary to like say, hey, we need to stop.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love that. This is a boundary. I love that the two of you\u2019re doing it together. This is a real discussion. I don\u2019t think we should do it. Here\u2019s why. The next step is to say, what do you think? But in this case, you two are totally aligned, so where\u2019s your phone?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:38]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Over here.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ll grab it for you. And let\u2019s just send that text. Let him know. Boy, I\u2019m interested to see. Yeah, there we go. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:50]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re making me be the bad guy. That\u2019s interesting.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You\u2019re are not a bad guy for setting a boundary. You\u2019re not a bad\u2013 hold on. That\u2019s actually really interesting. Person who sets a boundary is what?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:00]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Smart<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:02]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0And responsible.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>Yeah. In fact, to me, that\u2019s somebody who\u2019s a hero. That is the kind of hero that I want. Someone who says, look, we have a goal. This is what we\u2019re doing. We\u2019re going to say yes to this, but we\u2019re going to say no to anything that\u2019s not in our primary goal. I\u2019m not the bad guy. I\u2019m the hero. And in this case, both of you\u2019re the hero because you\u2019re deciding. Now, who sends the text, that\u2019s up to you. But approach it as if you\u2019re doing the right thing, not you\u2019re being the bad guy. Go ahead.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:34]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. I said, hey, guys, I don\u2019t think we can make it to Torrisi tomorrow. I\u2019m sorry.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So the fact that you\u2019re both saying, no, we\u2019re going to put ourselves first, not this dinner, I think it\u2019s amazing. I think it\u2019s especially meaningful because you\u2019ve gone to the city, there\u2019s something very meaningful about this type of restaurant for you, and for you to say, no, we\u2019re coming first. I think that\u2019s really awesome. So great work. First of many boundaries.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:06]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s true.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel good about the decision.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. What do you want to do to fix cost? We need to get this number down.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:13]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0The glaring numbers, obviously the car.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:16]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess I\u2019m really going to have to go and figure out what options I have to getting out of that car payment.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:25]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Because we can\u2019t do anything else.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:29]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I definitely would love to get into a new car payment. I just don\u2019t know how to go about it. I guess I would\u2019ve to go to a dealership, look at some cars, and then see what options I have.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No,\u00a0fuck\u00a0that. You\u2019re not going anywhere near a dealership. Every time the two of you go into a dealership, you end up buying another luxury car.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:43]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I\u2019ve never felt good leaving a dealership ever.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, shocking. That\u2019s really shocking. Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:47]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So, no, what do you want to do?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:54]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Sell the car.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:56]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Sell the car.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s going to suck. You\u2019re going to lose money. But over the course of 12 months, 18 months, 36 months, that\u2019s when you\u2019re really going to start to see those savings. And it\u2019s not like you\u2019re going to get a big fat check that says, here, you did the right thing. It simply means that the amount you\u2019re paying towards your car payment is slowly going to go down. You\u2019re going to have a little bit more cash every month. And that is money that can be used for what?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:23]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Credit card payments.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Savings, all those things. But it\u2019s going to feel horrible. That\u2019s the situation you\u2019re in.\u00a0Let\u2019s be conservative. Remember how I always say like, I want to be conservative with my assumptions? Let\u2019s drop this down $1,000. So 1,295, and therefore your car payments per month become $1,495.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:45]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s only Kevin\u2019s car right now.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, pretty much.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, which is insane. Well, first of all, what just happened to your fixed cost number?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:54]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it went down.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:55]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It went to 67%.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:57]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s really good.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re getting close. We\u2019re in the right direction.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:59]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what are we noticing with all these examples?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0That we have options.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:08]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0That there\u2019s definitely ways to work on things and get it done.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:14]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0That I shouldn\u2019t be so hesitant to come up with an idea? If I think of something, maybe I should just say it instead of like, oh, I don\u2019t know if that\u2019ll work. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I noticed a lot of self-censoring, a lot of digressions about, I\u2019m not trying to say this, and I\u2019m not trying to do that, and not, not, not, not, not, a lot of ego protection instead of like, let me be straightforward. I\u2019m not sure if this is the correct solution, but here\u2019s what I think. What do think?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:41]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a discussion.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:43]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:44]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can\u2019t dance around everybody\u2019s feelings the entire time. In fact, you\u2019re actually hurting both of you by not being direct.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:51]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, you could go out and eat at some nice restaurants and take some vacations, and it\u2019ll be okay. What do you think would happen if you keep doing that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:04]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re just going to dig our hole deeper. We\u2019re never going to be able to pay off our debt, and something\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:13]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0And God forbid something happens.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:14]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0God forbid something happens, then we\u2019re really going to be screwed. And then we\u2019re going to\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What are you going to do then?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:19]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re going to have to sell the house, I don\u2019t know. Move back home.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Two kids, move back home.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:25]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:26]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Credit\u2019s going to be super bad. We\u2019re going to have a hard time coming up from that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. How\u2019s it going to affect your relationship?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:35]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s going to be horrible. We\u2019ll both feel really terrible, like we really just failed.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Kevin, you agree?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you were engaged with the money, Kevin, you would be able to open up the CSP, point out the fact that there is no specific vacation thing here. There\u2019s $0 saved for vacations. And you would be adept at saying, look, right now it\u2019s not in our CSP. If we want to make a plan for it, we can make a plan for it. Let\u2019s talk about it. Where can we draw the money from?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:05]\u00a0But because you don\u2019t live in this world, you live in just a world of like, ah, I don\u2019t know. What do you think? Okay, well, I trust you. You\u2019re the leader. You leave it up to her, and she wants to go on the vacation, so she\u2019s going to go on the vacation. Do you see how that dynamic works?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:20]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You down with it. You look a little hesitant.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:24]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it sounds great to me. And that\u2019s where I want to get to. I want her to not have to check anything. Just trust in me that I could get it done. And I feel like if she gives me that opportunity, I could show her that I could excel and do just that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you create that opportunity for yourself. She doesn\u2019t have to give it to you.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:50]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:50]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Takes discipline, holding each other accountable.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m excited about what we have to look at and move forward. I think that if we work together, we\u2019ll be way better off, to be honest.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:08]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:09]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0And I think we\u2019re very capable. You\u2019re definitely capable of it, but I think\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:13]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0So are you.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:15]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Communicating.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the dynamic today? Before we started talking, what was the dynamic?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:21]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Separate.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Separate. Yeah. And who did what? What was the roles?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:25]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0The hero.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:27]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess the villain.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:28]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it was the avoider.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:32]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0The avoider. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, the avoider. And the worrier.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:36]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, the worrier.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Worrying, yeah. Living in the spreadsheet as well.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can now be saving thousands of dollars per month.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:45]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That sounds really good<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:49]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0That sounds amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And actually, it\u2019s a perfect time because you have a new baby. You\u2019re not going to be going out to restaurants. In many ways, this is the time to hunker down, focus on the family.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:00]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. Right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Turn off the outside noise, and build up a war chest, a moat, where your family is protected, and more importantly, the two of you are connected.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:13]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:14]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I love it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:15]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Sounds really good.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:17]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>That sounds perfect.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s a path forward. That\u2019s what I see.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:20]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So now what is the new dynamic? How would you describe it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:24]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0United.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:24]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Super team. Yeah. United, for sure.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love that. United. Super team.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:31]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Strong.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:32]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I love that for us. I think it\u2019ll be great, and I know we could do it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:41]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0At least as long as you know that we\u2019re going to work together and get to where we need to be. That\u2019s all that matters.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:49]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Hot in here.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:50]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It\u2019s okay. We said it would get hotter when the questions got hotter.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:54]\u00a0<strong>Michelle:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I thought Kevin and Michelle were extremely interesting.\u00a0They have a very good income, but they have co-created a dynamic that is not serving them anymore. Now, while Michelle and Kevin did not send follow-up videos, I did receive this letter from them. Let me read it to you.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:17]\u00a0\u201cWe left the meeting feeling hopeful and optimistic about our financial future. The past couple of days, we\u2019ve been discussing options regarding selling our vehicles and paying off the loans associated with them. A family member is purchasing a new vehicle in the near future, and he\u2019s willing to sell his old car directly to us instead of trading it in.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:35]\u00a0\u201cDon\u2019t worry, it costs less than $15,000. Our plan is to buy this car and sell my Mercedes within the next two months. We are also looking at websites like Carvana and KBB to sell Kevin\u2019s car and then hopefully find another vehicle in the $10,000 range to purchase.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:52]\u00a0\u201cAlthough we still have a lot more to work on,\u00a0just having this discussion together regarding our car situation has been extremely refreshing. We\u2019ve been collaborating as a team on which car makes the most sense, what timeline we need to stick to, and most importantly, how we will manage our finances for the purchase of the new cars and the sale of the old ones.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:11]\u00a0\u201cComing up with a plan together is a big leap in the right direction for us. We realize we have a lot of work to do. We have cut our guilt-free spending to only 10% and plan to keep that for at least a year. We\u2019ve put together a debt payoff schedule. If we commit to spending only 10% of our income for guilt-free things, putting an extra $1,000 monthly towards our debt, we can pay off our $55,000 loan in only one year and eight months versus the currently projected two years and nine months.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:40]\u00a0\u201cThis will free up over $3,000 a month for us in as little as two years, not to mention the $5,000 in interest we will save. We are committed to working on these financial changes together and setting boundaries when it comes to our friends and family and our finances.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:54]\u00a0\u201cNext on our list of things to tackle, we\u2019ll be cutting everyone off our Verizon phone bill, setting up automatic payments, which we plan to do together this weekend. We finally see a light at the end of the tunnel. We are excited that we are slowly untangling the tight knot we have created for ourselves, eager to move forward with our growing family.\u00a0Thank you for all of your help. It was a pleasure meeting and speaking with you and your team.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:15] Thank you, Kevin. Thank you, Michelle.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Kevin and Michelle, 32 and 30, joined me live in New York City earlier this year for our very first in-person interview. They have one young child and another on the way, but they can\u2019t stop spending. With low savings, their debt mounts while they both lease luxury vehicles. This episode is brought to you [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118912","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118912","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118912"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118912\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118912"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118912"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}