{"id":118924,"date":"2024-02-20T13:17:43","date_gmt":"2024-02-20T17:17:43","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118924"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:33:15","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:33:15","slug":"144-brad-angie","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/144-brad-angie\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 144. \u201cWe make $245K. Why do I have to ask my wife for dinner money?\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe make $245K\u2026Why do I have to ask for dinner money?\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/_k4nbq5j2aU\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/3SRECMxYobpiDRNkFegLmC?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Brad and Angie, 55 and 56, are each 10 years into a second marriage. With six adult children out of the house, they\u2019re planning to buy an RV and tour the country in as little as two years. Carrying credit card debt, student loans, a HELOC, mortgage, and only $3,000 saved\u2014can they?<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>ZocDoc | Download the ZocDoc app for FREE\u00a0 at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/zocdoc.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/zocdoc.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0then find and book a top-rated doctor today.<\/p>\n<p>LMNT | Right now, LMNT is offering 8 single serving packets FREE with any LMNT order. This is a great way to try all 8 flavors. Get yours at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT\">https:\/\/drinklmnt.com\/RAMIT<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Eight Sleep | For a better, smarter sleep, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/eightsleep.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/eightsleep.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0for $200 and free shipping.<\/p>\n<p>Fabric by Gerber Life | Protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. Apply today in just 10 minutes at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcrip<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve been using YNAB for a year and a half and trying to get a month ahead in there, but I just can\u2019t seem to do it, and it doesn\u2019t make any sense to me. I know why it is, because we\u2019re spending too much money, but can\u2019t seem to fix that quite right. When I talked to him about money, he would just blow up, and I know it\u2019s because he\u2019s uncomfortable with the whole money thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:28]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0She has a business degree and she\u2019s a spreadsheet whizz-kid. I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s right that I took the easy route and let her handle everything. But that\u2019s definitely what I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:39]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to be able to say, yeah, we can do that, we can do that, we can do that, because I figure I make a good living, and I deserve it. But it\u2019s still above our means a little bit. You know what? I go through these things where I think somebody is just siphoning money off my account. It\u2019s just happening. Somebody else.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meet Brad and Angie. They\u2019re both in their mid-50s. They have six adult children between them. This is a mixed family as this is both their second marriage, and they are empty nesters who describe themselves as excited for the next chapter in their lives. They tell me that they\u2019re a few years away from retiring, and then they want to travel full-time in an RV and see the country.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:20]\u00a0Now, what you\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0hear in today\u2019s conversation is a mismatch in the way that the two of them see money. And I think most importantly, you\u2019re going to hear this fascinating discussion of psychological and cultural values around money.\u00a0So let\u2019s start the conversation with Brad and Angie.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:39]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m on my way to work and I stop at the gas station to put gas in and my credit, debit card, whatever is declined. And I call Angie and I\u2019m like, what\u2019s going on? How can we not have any money in there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:51]\u00a0And she said, well, we had to use $900 for\u2013 it was an emergency. We were at the hospital and the card we had wasn\u2019t working or something, so we had to put it on this other card. And so now we didn\u2019t have that $900 in there, so it was these unexpected expenses.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so you were at the gas station and you tried to use your card and it doesn\u2019t work. So what\u2019d you do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:17]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, there wasn\u2019t really anything I could do at the time. I had to get to work, and so I had to have her come and pick me up and drive me to work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did that feel like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:27]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s not so bad, but I was on vacation once with a bunch of guys. We\u2019re out to dinner and I go to use the card and it\u2019s declined. And I had to call Angie back in Wisconsin and say, can you put some more money on the card? Because I can\u2019t pay for my own dinner. That\u2019s a little embarrassing when it happens in a situation like that. But at a gas station, it\u2019s just me and her. I can be embarrassed in front of Angie, but it\u2019s a little embarrassing in front of your friends.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:56]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that was terrible. I\u2019ve been using YNAB for a year and a half and trying to get a month ahead in there, and I really like the program, but I just can\u2019t seem to do it, and it doesn\u2019t make any sense to me. I know why it is. Because we\u2019re spending too much money, but can\u2019t seem to fix that quite right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:15]\u00a0So I was embarrassed, and I felt bad. When he was in Florida with his friends, that was worse because it wasn\u2019t just the one time he had to call me. He had to reach out to me three times because I just didn\u2019t have any cash. And I hate that and I just don\u2019t know why.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I ask the question that I think we\u2019re all wondering? If he didn\u2019t have any cash, how was he on vacation with his friends?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:43]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, that\u2019s a good question, because I wanted him to go. Yeah, that\u2019s a very good question.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, anybody got any answers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:52]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we had money. I think it\u2019s just that we were trying to keep money in a spend card and then money in more of a buffer or a savings. So I think she was having to dip from that and put it into the spend account.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:14]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, I think it\u2019s more like I\u2019m the kind of person, for good or bad, probably bad, that says experiences matter and I tend to think, we\u2019ll figure it out when you get there. And that\u2019s not good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you mean? He did figure it out. He called you and you transferred money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:33]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. But I don\u2019t think I had enough to just make him stop worrying about it or stop being a problem. But I just know that it does happen where we dip down and it\u2019s not comfortable. When I wanted to do this debt consolidation thing, this is when we owed a lot of money on credit cards and I wanted to do that, I could feel the tension rising.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. And so what did you say to him?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:58]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I didn\u2019t feel like we were going to be able to pay off our debt the way it was, and we needed to do something different. And then it spiraled into why do we have so much debt. Then I say, because we had to pay for this and this and this. It just gets off track.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you said we\u2019re not going to be able to pay, and he said, why do we have so much debt? What was your answer to that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:19]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I probably glossed over it. When I talked to him about money, he would just blow up and not yell at me, but just get louder. And I know it\u2019s because he\u2019s uncomfortable with the whole money thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:34]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I used to feel like everything was a surprise to me because I wasn\u2019t involved in the finances. It just came out of the blue. I wasn\u2019t really involved. And so when she would tell me, we were hurting that month or something, I would always be like, well, how can this be? Now I\u2019m a little more involved with those things, and I don\u2019t try to put my head in the sand, I guess you could say.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0At the time you went into debt consolidation, were you aware that you were in debt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:07]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, because of school loans and things like that. It wasn\u2019t what I would consider severe. When you hear about people with huge school loans and things like that, we weren\u2019t crazy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much debt was it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:21]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0It was about\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No. Angie, Angie, hold on a second. I want to hear from Brad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:26]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t remember, actually. I don\u2019t think we\u2019re irresponsible or anything. We just need to figure out why we\u2019re sometimes surprised when bills come due. We both make pretty good money, and we shouldn\u2019t be struggling.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:42]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, if I could have done it by myself, I probably would\u2019ve, because I tend to try to do that and that\u2019s not good. You know what? I go through these things where I think somebody is just siphoning money off my account. It\u2019s just happening, somebody else.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What I\u2019m struck by in those stories is not that occasionally there\u2019s some account snafu and one account runs out of money. That happens. It shouldn\u2019t happen, but it happens occasionally. Okay, fine. What I\u2019m actually struck by is the different ways that you talk about what happened.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0I\u2019ve become obsessed with these pivotal moments where people realize something is really, really wrong with their finances.\u00a0I\u2019m obsessed with it because you can actually go years without actually admitting how bad things are. You\u2019ve heard it on this podcast. People will come on here, I\u2019ll go through their numbers with them, and they will realize they\u2019ve been spending more than they make for months.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:43]\u00a0\u00a0And I realize it\u2019s not just with money where you can deny how bad things are for a long time. My wife is a personal stylist. She tells me a story about one of her clients who had just gotten a job at a law firm and she was going on a flight in the airport and she saw a very senior partner on the same flight\u00a0totally dressed up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:00]\u00a0Now, she herself was wearing old gym clothes and she looked away. She didn\u2019t want to be seen wearing those clothes, and she realized, oh my God, I really need to uplevel my style. My wife tells me that when this person landed, she sent her a message saying, I\u2019m ready. These pivotal moments are extremely revealing.\u00a0They tell you so much about what gets a person to change.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:26]\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:28]\u00a0So with Brad and Angie, I noticed this pivotal moment of him being with his friends on vacation and the credit card not working.\u00a0How embarrassing.\u00a0The pattern so far seems to be that Angie\u2019s taking control and Brad is taking a backseat, but I think it\u2019s actually a lot more complicated than that.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Would you care to discuss it? Because I think it\u2019s actually pretty interesting what happened in the past, which might shine some light on where we are today.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:53]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Care to discuss, Brad?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:56]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, of course, it\u2019s easier to just let someone else handle everything. So that\u2019s what I was doing. Angie is way smarter as far as the accounting goes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Look at Angie\u2019s face right now. What\u2019s she doing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:11]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0She doesn\u2019t think she is, but I think she is. She has a business degree and she\u2019s a spreadsheet whizz-kid. I\u2019m not saying it\u2019s right that I took the easy route and let her handle everything, but that\u2019s definitely what I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:26]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I like to be the one who knows things. I don\u2019t like it when I don\u2019t know something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I agree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:35]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s hard for me to admit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. Even to yourself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:38]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I appreciate the honesty. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:41]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you did that, which happened over\u2013 how many years did you do that for? Again, look at Angie\u2019s face.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:54]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Since we\u2019ve been married.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. 10 years.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:56]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You ever go on a boat, like a canoe or something like that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:00]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:02]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m outdoorsy guy. I have kayaks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, great. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:05]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Kayaks, and canoes, and all that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m already outclassed because I don\u2019t even know the name of the boat I\u2019m trying to describe, but the ones with the oars. So you\u2019re on a two person kayak or whatever and you got one person rowing and the other\u2019s just chilling.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:22]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the cost of that? Is the one in the back is doing all the work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And maybe you don\u2019t go as far as you want it to go.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:28]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe it\u2019s a lot harder on the one person rowing, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:32]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0And maybe you go in circles a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a good point. Can we go back to the part about how you two interpreted the credit debit card totally differently?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:45]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s your take? What happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:48]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, why it happens is because I don\u2019t have enough of a buffer in the bank account to support that kind of action.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:00]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably because I spend more on the house and things like that, that I shouldn\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:11]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I figure I make a good living and I deserve it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why do you deserve it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:18]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I spent a lot of time in my earlier years not having things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. And so as a result, now that you make money\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:31]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t walk around going, I feel I deserve this, but I definitely feel like I do because now I make a good living and I want my children to have things.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m sorry, but I have to cut in here. Did you hear that last sentence by Angie? That was one of the most interesting single sentences I have ever heard on this podcast. In one sentence, it was full of rationalizations and double talk, and then the ultimate justification, I\u2019m doing it for the kids. Listen carefully as I play it again for you.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:08]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t walk around going, I feel I deserve this, but I definitely feel like I do because now I make a good living and I want my children to have things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what about Brad? Things like the vacation?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:24]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I want him to be able to go on those things. We\u2019re not hungry. We\u2019re not homeless. We have the things that we need. We\u2019re Maslow\u2019s. We are above that. So I figure, he can go because this is when they\u2019re going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:40]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Even the vacation I took, it wasn\u2019t some extravagant vacation. It was the Florida with some guys. We weren\u2019t doing anything extravagant down there. We were just hanging out and having beer and being goofy guys.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:55]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0But did we plan for it? No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:58]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0We should have enough money to go for a weekend with the guys down to Florida. And it wasn\u2019t like I was going to Vegas and letting it ride at the casino or something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And could you afford dinner?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:14]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes you don\u2019t have to be eating at a Michelin-starred restaurant in order to be overspending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:23]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There are a lot of families that never eat out. They just can\u2019t afford it. So I want to be careful who we\u2019re comparing ourselves to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:32]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I was one of those kids that had a paper route when he was like 12 years old and saved every penny and bought my first bike. Walking past the bike store every day on my way to work, looking at that bike in the window. And I finally said, dad, I got the money saved up. And he\u2019s like, what? And he didn\u2019t even realize that I\u2019ve been saving it. And I went in and forked down cash and rode home on the bike.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did you make on that paper route?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:00]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a020 bucks a week or something<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a020 bucks a week.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:03]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0It wasn\u2019t very much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. Well, to save up 300 bucks is very impressive.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:07]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, and it was a morning paper route, so I had to get up at 4:30 every day, no matter if it was raining or snowing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why\u2019d you do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:15]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Because they weren\u2019t going to buy me a bike. My mom was a stay-at-home mom. My dad was a banker.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A retail banker? What kind of banker?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:23]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0He was a commercial loan officer. We would go to dinner maybe once a year and take a vacation, camping or something like that, not going to Disney or something like that and spending a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And when you say you ate out once a year, is that for real? You\u2019re not exaggerating.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:41]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not exaggerating, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:43]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0They didn\u2019t really talk about it. I just remember we never really had a budget for food. My mom always thought food was medicine. You eat healthy, and it\u2019s just preventative medicine. She made everything from scratch at home. And that was the only really side financially that I really heard.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you remember asking them as a kid, can\u2019t we go to McDonald\u2019s? What would they have said to that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:11]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0My mom would\u2019ve said, no, we can make a burger at home. It\u2019s way better than a McDonald\u2019s burger. And they were. and You can\u2019t argue with that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s true. And what about if you said, mom, I want to go to Disneyland, or I want to go here or there, what would you have said, or what would your dad have said?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:30]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0They would find ways. I had friends that were in like the ski club at school, and they would ski in these really fancy outfits, and they had brand new skis and all the equipment. I didn\u2019t have all that, but my mom found a way to make it work. She would find used skis, and I would ski in my blue jeans and still had fun.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s cool. I love that resourcefulness of parents. I love it. It was a middle class life.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:57]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think so. I would do crazy stuff to earn money. I would sneak onto the golf course at night with my friends, and we\u2019d go in the water up to our chins and get golf balls, and we\u2019d bring them home and clean them up. My mom would save egg cartons and we\u2019d sort them by the brand and we\u2019d go out on the golf course the next day, or Saturday, whatever, and we\u2019d sell golf balls to the golfers, sell the same balls, they probably hit into the water.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:26]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0And I\u2019d make money doing that. I got a job at a restaurant when I was 16. And I just always had a job, really.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did you feel when you got that money, whether it\u2019s cash or a paycheck? What did you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:44]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Independent. I didn\u2019t have to ask my parents for money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:49]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0They didn\u2019t know where I was spending it either. So that was fun.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:55]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Being able to just get whatever I wanted and not have to ask.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Okay, okay. And if we just fast forward 35 years, and it\u2019s you in Florida and you\u2019re calling up your wife and you\u2019re saying, can you please put 50 bucks on the card, what does that feel like?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:23]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it felt like I was a kid asking my parents for money. And I\u2019m not blaming Angie. I don\u2019t want to come across as I\u2019m blaming her. It just felt like I wasn\u2019t in control of my own money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Can\u2019t feel good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:44]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know what to make of Brad\u2019s story about having a paper route. On one hand, he was a very resourceful kid. It\u2019s clear that he loved money and he loved the independence it gave him, but in his adult relationship with Angie, he\u2019s acting the exact opposite. He doesn\u2019t manage the money. Forget independence.\u00a0He is literally a dependent, as he calls his wife and asks her to put money on the card so he can pay for dinner on vacation with his friends. I\u2019m confused.\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick pause for a message from our sponsors<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:20]\u00a0\u00a0Now, back to Brad and Angie.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:23]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re Gen Xers, and so sometimes we\u2019re talking about like the clothes we had when we were kids and I wanted the Gloria Vanderbilt jeans and I couldn\u2019t have them. So his family to me was rich as I look back. We went out to eat more, but my mom was working as a waitress, so we\u2019d eat there, at a supper club. This is Wisconsin. We have supper clubs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Hold on, hold on, hold on. What is this supper club?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:49]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh my goodness. Yeah, you go to supper clubs around here, they serve you a delicious dinner, and you have old-fashions. You know what an old-fashioned is?<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:59]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a Wisconsin thing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:02]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Now that\u2019s trendy. So we got to go out to eat there, but that\u2019s because my mom either got us to eat for free or cheap. But yeah, we didn\u2019t do that a lot. My dad was a truck driver, so he was gone a lot of the time. And my mom was raising three kids on her own, essentially, when my dad was gone. And I had no idea we were broke. I shouldn\u2019t say broke. We were able to pay for things to my mind, but I never asked for anything extra. And I couldn\u2019t afford the clothes that I wanted and things like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you know you couldn\u2019t afford it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:38]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know how I knew because we never talked about money at all. One time when I was a young adult, my mom said she remembers searching through the couch cushions for milk money. And I was like, what? Or every year my mom would say, it\u2019s going to be a big Christmas this year. And it was always a perfectly fine Christmas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:02]\u00a0We had what we needed to live. I was never disappointed. I don\u2019t ever remember thinking, oh, we didn\u2019t get anything for Christmas. It was never like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How is she doing financially?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:15]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re fine. They\u2019re retired for many years now, and they watch their money because there\u2019s no income coming in, but they don\u2019t feel the need to work to bring any extra income in. Yeah, I think they\u2019ve done well for themselves. As I look back, I would\u2019ve liked to have known more about how they did that. And how they got to that point just wasn\u2019t talked about.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a very Midwest thing, you know?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:40]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Money is for the adults.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:42]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0And she has a very German family too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, okay. Got it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:46]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Bring up emotions.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So did the two of you ever talk about your upbringings around money with each other?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:56]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:57]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0We have, yeah. The fact that there is nothing really to talk about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:01]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, Angie makes it sound like she grew up on Little House on the Prairie, and she lived out in the country, and they were happy with a straw doll for Christmas or something. I don\u2019t think it was that bad, but that\u2019s how it sounds.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:17]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Hey, one year that mom said it wasn\u2019t going to be a good Christmas we got these big TV pillows, me and my sister and brother, and we loved them. So hey, we were happy. It\u2019s not that I didn\u2019t have things as a kid, I just knew that my parents worked their butts off. They were not just sitting around, doing things for themselves. They were working really hard for us, and it was tough.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:42]\u00a0So I didn\u2019t want to bother them with things. I wanted to feel like, I\u2019m free to do this now. I want to be able to say, yeah, we can do that, we can do that, we can do that. And I\u2019m not crazy about it, but it\u2019s still above our means a little bit sometimes. But if I was ahead a little bit, then it wouldn\u2019t be.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, okay. Did things change when you started making more money after your master\u2019s degree?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:13]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:13]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0For the better, I think.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You made a lot more money then, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:16]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s when we really buckled down, and that\u2019s when we were trying to pay off debt and consolidate debt and get to a better place because now we had the money to do that and play catch up. I\u2019m looking at downsizing and getting rid of clutter, and I don\u2019t need a lot of things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:37]\u00a0I just want the simple life. I don\u2019t want to have to worry so much, and I don\u2019t need a fancy watch and a fancy car and all this. I just want to have a fun adventure with my wife and see this country\u2019s beautiful sights, and things like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:54]\u00a0Before it was like, okay, we\u2019re racking all this stuff up just to survive basically. And then once she got her degree and got a better job, then it was like, okay, we\u2019re making better money. Now let\u2019s get the financials in order. We didn\u2019t just say, woo-hoo, we got all this money. Let\u2019s go spend it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:16]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:17]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0We took a trip with the kids because we finally had a little money and we were like, this might be our last trip with the kids because now they\u2019re all moving out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Where\u2019d you go?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:26]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0That was the Mexico trip.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did that trip cost?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:29]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a010,000, 15,000 probably because we took as many of the kids as we could.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t think it\u2019s that little. I think it\u2019s more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:39]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0It might be probably. It\u2019s like asking somebody how much they drink. It\u2019s usually you double it, you know?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah, I know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:46]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Like, when your doctor says how many drinks would you say\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. They just take whatever. Especially if you\u2019re a guy, they take whatever, and then they triple it. It\u2019s like, all right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:54]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:55]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ve tried to ask Angie how much we spent on that Mexico trip, and I don\u2019t think I\u2019ve got a straight answer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:01]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, here are four things where nobody ever knows the actual cost of them. Number one, a house. Number two, a car. Number three, a wedding, and number four, a vacation. Do you know why? Because you don\u2019t want to know. People pick some arbitrary number for their wedding, like the couple we heard from last week, and then as the costs start creeping up and it\u2019s too late to cancel, they simply shift those costs to some black hole where you\u2019ll never have to think about it again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:30]\u00a0Well, I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s a little bit more than I thought. Oh, well, can\u2019t do anything about it\u00a0now.\u00a0This is the power of systems and psychology that I teach in IWT.\u00a0You\u2019ve\u00a0got to\u00a0be humble enough to admit that you, me, and all of us, we are all human.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:48]\u00a0This idea that I don\u2019t\u00a0want to\u00a0know the truth, okay. You don\u2019t\u00a0want to\u00a0know the truth, neither do I. Now let me build a system to make sure that I can still function. I can save up ahead of time. I can add a healthy buffer, and then I can try as much as possible to stick to a number. But the trying part is the least of it.\u00a0Building in the buffer and the systems, that is the real magic here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:10]\u00a0Okay. Back to Brad and Angie. Angie got her master\u2019s, which triggered some changes in their money dynamic, and they\u2019re talking about potentially simplifying towards an RV life. Recall that they are in their mid-50s. Let me dig into their numbers for you right now.\u00a0Their assets are $494,000, investments are $394,000, savings is about $3,000, their debt is $433,000, for a total net worth of $458,700.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What do you think about that number?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:43]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t like it. I\u2019m happy with it in the sense that it was way lower a couple of years ago, but I still am not happy with it. When I project it out, we need one and a half million.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, good. Just the fact that you used the word projected is impressive to me. That\u2019s great. Okay. Brad, what do you think about those numbers?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:05]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t really know what they all mean.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:08]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0We have about 11,000 in various credit cards.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:15]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0And then the car loan is about 30.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:19]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s my Bronco. The HELOC 39.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:26]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Student loans, 107, and our mortgage about 243.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the interest on the student loans and the mortgage?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:43]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0The student loans, on the bulk of it, on 105,000 of it, it\u2019s six and a half percent.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And what about the mortgage?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:52]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0And the mortgage is 3.125.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:55]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0We took out a HELOC not too long ago to do some projects around the house. We went through that pretty quickly on some of these projects. And then Angie said, oh, that\u2019s pretty much gone now. And I\u2019m like, what do we spend all that on? And she\u2019s like, well, we paid off the car, and we did this, and we did that, and we did all these landscaping projects.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:14]\u00a0And yeah, I guess it did go faster than I thought it would, but we got a lot done. So I think we\u2019ll be in a good place when we go to sell the house. We put a lot of sweat equity into it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, cool. Let\u2019s continue down here. Income. Did you know that you made a $245,000 household income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:37]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Not really.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Angie, did you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:41]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Well, you two fits statistically perfectly because about 50% of the people I speak to do not know how much they make. So here we go, 50%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:52]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0This is only because I was using your conscious spending plan, though, before, so it\u2019s helped.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Before that, you didn\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:59]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Not really because\u2013 I know what I make. I know what he makes. I wasn\u2019t really figuring it out, though.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s crazy, isn\u2019t it? We spend our entire lives talking about work, thinking about work, being at work, and 50% of us don\u2019t really know how much we make.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:19]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I don\u2019t think that I put that kind of thought into it all the time because I was just trying to get through the months paycheck to paycheck to paycheck to paycheck that I just didn\u2019t\u2013 the only time I thought about it was when you have to fill in a little scrolly thing when you\u2019re doing something online.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot of us believe very simple stories about money. You can hear it with Brad and Angie over and over. We needed to renovate, so we took a home equity line of credit. That just rolled off their tongue. When in reality, a home equity line of credit is an extremely complex financial instrument.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:00]\u00a0And even their comment that they\u2019re just trying to get through the months paycheck to paycheck, a lot of people just roll that right off their tongue as well. A lot of people genuinely believe that most Americans live paycheck to paycheck. Number one, that is not true, and number two, that is meaningless since you have personally heard people on this podcast who make multiple six figures, they max out their 401Ks, their 529s, and then they complain that they are living paycheck to paycheck.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:31]\u00a0Please stop with these simple stories that make you seem helpless around money.\u00a0\u00a0If you look up what the actual status of American finances is today, it\u2019s better than ever.\u00a0Yes, housing is expensive. Yes, healthcare is expensive, but you\u2019ve\u00a0got to\u00a0stop repeating these phrases that not just coincidentally disempower you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:55]\u00a0So if you\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0pick a story to follow, why not pick one where you\u2019re empowered and strong? Leave a comment below if you\u2019ve ever told yourself a disempowering story about money before and what it was.\u00a0I am curious. I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0read every one of those comments.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:10]\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:11]\u00a0Now back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:13]\u00a0Listen to how Brad describes his feelings about money.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:17]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I worked at a very toxic company for a very long time and didn\u2019t get a raise for probably 10 years. And so now I\u2019m at this really great company that treats me well. They give me a nice bonus every Christmas. I don\u2019t really think about how much they\u2019re paying me because they treat me so well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:33]\u00a0I feel appreciated. I don\u2019t feel stressed coming home. At the old place, Angie would say, you got to get out of there. So now I\u2019m out of there and I feel great. I guess I just put it in the back of my mind because I feel so much better mentally and emotionally and everything now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m glad to hear that. Honestly I want everyone to have a great job where they feel respected, appreciated, compensated well, but I\u2019m happy to hear that. You made that move. Great job. But I just want to say it\u2019s extremely interesting that the two of you make certainly in the top 10% in your area, probably the top 5%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:17]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you feel rich?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:20]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-mm. I feel fortunate. I know that we make that much money. I don\u2019t feel rich because I still worry about money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Do you feel wealthy?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:39]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. See, that\u2019s a term I can\u2019t apply to myself, I guess. I don\u2019t know why.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:44]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel rich for what I have in life, but not in a monetary standpoint.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Listen, Brad, this\u2019s not a Hallmark movie. Oh, the angels come out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:55]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Just watch out. His hippie\u2019s going to come out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I know. Listen, Brad, thank you. That\u2019s very pleasant. I love hearing that. Do you feel wealthy?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:05]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you mean financially?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:07]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:09]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I don\u2019t feel wealthy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, hold on, hold on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:13]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m still driving a crappy car to work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on a second. What\u2019s that number on screen right there? What\u2019s that? Read it out again, Brad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:22]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0245,916.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s your household income in Wisconsin.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:26]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:28]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0If somebody in California saw the size of our yard, they\u2019d be like, that\u2019s a 5-million-dollar piece of property in San Francisco or something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Maybe more. Yeah. I love this beautiful example where you make an extremely high household income, which by the way doesn\u2019t even factor in some bonus. We\u2019ll get there. And you live in Wisconsin, so all the excuses are out the door, and yet here we have the two of you who still don\u2019t feel wealthy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:00]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that tell you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:04]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re warped.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No, they\u2019re not warped. They\u2019re just like everyone else who realizes that the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated to how much you\u2019ve got in the bank. I especially love this example because they live in an affordable area. Listen now as they do mental gymnastics to make sense of their wealth.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:25]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, I don\u2019t know because I do make enough money. I can buy this really cool composter for my little pantry so I can compost things, but I just feel like, no, that\u2019s too much. I can\u2019t do that. I can\u2019t do that. I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s a little\u2013 because why don\u2019t I have this money left over in my account every month? What\u2019s up with that? Why is my savings so low if I am so rich, or wealthy, or whatever?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:56]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not handling it well or something.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that\u2019s very candid. I wish more people would just be honest about that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:02]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does it tell you about your feelings, Brad, the fact that both of you are utterly resistant to define yourselves as wealthy, even though your income is in the top four or 3%?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:16]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0It tells me that we have the means, but we\u2019re not managing it the way we could be.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If you managed it, would your feelings magically change?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:28]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh. Oh, I see. No, probably not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hell no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:34]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, when I think of rich, I think of people just spending extravagantly, and I don\u2019t think we\u2019ve ever done.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But didn\u2019t you tell me you took a HELOC and you do all this renovation around it? Sounds pretty extravagant to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:45]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I did all the work myself, though. I was moving boulders that were 300 pounds.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I went to pick out the Vicuna sweater that I bought myself. I felt 10 different Cashmeres.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:56]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Instead of paying a landscaper though, is what I\u2019m saying I could have\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fair enough.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:01]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I did all the work myself. So I feel like that\u2019s the compromise that I make in my head. Like, yeah, we took out this loan, but I\u2019m going to do all the work myself, so it\u2019s not as bad. It\u2019s not\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because what does bad mean to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:19]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0If you\u2019re doing that work and putting the sweat equity in, then it\u2019s not so bad to rack up that debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:24]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But I guess I want to ask you, Brad, what if you could live your life without having to rationalize what you do with your money? For example, there are certain things I love to spend money on. I know my numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:37]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0If I can\u2019t afford it today, I save up for it in a disciplined way. And when I go buy it, I don\u2019t need to justify it by saying, I\u2019m sweating and pushing a wheelbarrow. I bought it because I love it and I can afford it. Does that sound like a possible identity for you, Brad? Or does it sound totally opposite of who you are? Be honest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:07]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0That would be hard for me. Even now, Angie tries to get me to buy new clothes and I\u2019m going to the thrift store and buying\u2013 she\u2019s like, you don\u2019t need to do that, honey. We have money. You can go buy new clothes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know why you do it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:22]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0It just seems extravagant when I can buy a really nice shirt that is $5 versus a $40 shirt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:32]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0This sounds very normal to what he says. I come home with some new clothes for him and he is like, I could have gotten that at Goodwill. And so he says that a lot. I just bought one of the little Roomba vacuum\u2013 not Roomba, but one of those things around the house, and I felt totally guilty about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:55]\u00a0I didn\u2019t even tell him I did it, not because I\u2019m afraid he is going to be upset about the money at all, but because it feels like a shameful purchase, even though, I don\u2019t know. We have a hard time with it. I agree. I still judge somebody who\u2019s wealthy by an eighth grade experience of me sitting in a social studies class and this girl that was in my school that we all knew was the rich one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Laura, the rich one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:26]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I would write it down in my notebook what shoes she was wearing because I was so shocked that she had 30 different pairs of shoes that she didn\u2019t have to wear the same pair of shoes. I was just like, this is crazy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:39]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0And you talked about the kid that had the round driveway.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:42]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0A circle driveway always meant you were very rich too.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me make an observation. Financially speaking, the two of you are wealthy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:54]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m talking about income-wise.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:56]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And when I hear you talk about the way that you think about money, behave with money, feel about money, I notice that you\u2019re both still playing very small. And in fact, you have the worst of many worlds because you\u2019re playing small, meaning you\u2019re still talking about Goodwill, not because you enjoy Goodwill, but rather because it\u2019s just inconceivable to you to change your identity and to recognize that you can actually spend more. I hear this eighth grade reference, which was 40 years ago. It deeply sticks with you. I appreciate you\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:40]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But at the same time, you\u2019ve convinced yourself that you\u2019re just simple people. We\u2019re not spending extravagantly. Meanwhile, you have $11,000 of credit card debt. You have a home equity line of credit at $40,000. You have a car loan for $30,000, student loans for $107,000, and a mortgage.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:01]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re actually getting the worst of both worlds. You\u2019re playing small and you\u2019re telling yourself, oh, we\u2019re simple people, but you\u2019re deeply in debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:12]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wouldn\u2019t it be much better to simply acknowledge, we make extremely high incomes. We probably need to change the way that we treat money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:25]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:27]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0If I\u2019m playing the comparative thing with people I know, I know people that have a second vacation home, and they have hunting land that they go to, and they have a boat and a Harley, and they have all these toys. I don\u2019t feel like we\u2019re spending on\u2013 I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t feel like we have all these toys that guys have my age that I know. We don\u2019t do that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brad, who said anything about comparing yourself to someone?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:04]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know if it\u2019s a Midwestern thing, people don\u2019t share what they make.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re just simple people. We can take a home equity line of credit and spend it on expensive home renovations, but because I pushed that lawnmower myself and I hammer in the nail myself, that\u2019s not extravagant. Meanwhile, they\u2019re actually living the worst of all worlds because they have to concoct these fantastic justifications and they\u2019re still in debt,\u00a0for a couple making $245,000.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0A rich life does not have to mean ATVs and a hunting ground lodge or whatever. It doesn\u2019t have to be that. It can be what you want. What is that like for you and Brad? What\u2019s the thing you do in your life where you see it, if you can afford it and you want it, you get it? What is it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:54]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, it\u2019s usually something stupid, Star Wars related. If I see it, I just get it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Why does that have to be stupid?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:01]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I\u2019m a 55-year-old man buying toys.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what? I think cool.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:09]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Honestly, it\u2019s pretty refreshing to see a guy having a hobby. I don\u2019t think it\u2019s stupid. I think it\u2019s interesting you describe your own hobby at 55 as stupid.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:18]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, most people would call it stupid.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You see what I\u2019m doing with my head right now. I\u2019m not trying to minimize your life. I actually think it\u2019s cool. And Brad, what I wish is that you would find your own interest cool as well, because they don\u2019t need to be minimized. I think it\u2019s really interesting and cool that you\u2019re an artist.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:44]\u00a0This guy has clearly thought about what he loves. He has a little hobby, a little routine, and then he is got this beautiful office where he puts his things, memories. It\u2019s\u00a0fucking\u00a0cool. So if anything, Brad, I\u2019m impressed. And the money part is irrelevant to this. It\u2019s just the fact that I like seeing people unapologetic about what they love. That\u2019s what I like.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But what it would take would be changing the way you think about your money. Because right now that\u2019s really focusing on three-dollar questions, lunch, should I get this shirt? Should I get this Star Wars thing from Goodwill? That\u2019s not the question anymore. The question is, why do you make $250,000 and have only $2,900 in savings? That\u2019s the question we should be asking. Why do you have all this debt when you make $250,000? That\u2019s the question we should be asking. Those are the 30,000 or even 300,000-dollar questions. And that\u2019s the kind of questions wealthy people concern themselves with. Okay?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:45]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s what we want to do. The theme of today is elevating. We\u2019re not going to play small anymore. I just won\u2019t allow it. Cool?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:56]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s put the numbers back up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:58]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your fixed costs are 70% of your take home pay. That\u2019s a little too high.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:05]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your housing cost is extremely low. That\u2019s fantastic. So I calculated that. So I combined your mortgage and your utilities and you\u2019re at 7.3%. God bless Wisconsin. Fantastic.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:20]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0We refinanced at a good time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Good. How many kids live in the house now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:24]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Zero.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, okay, so two of you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:26]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They look so happy. All right. Good for you. God bless empty nester. Especially after six kids, you really deserve all the peace you can get.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:34]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Your clothes are $100. Fine. Debt payment is $3,316. All right, so I\u2019m going to guess that you were overpaying on your debt, and I\u2019m guessing, because, Angie, you seem pretty savvy with money that you\u2019re overpaying ton get your credit card debt fast. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:54]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I have a snowball thing going on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, fine. All right, so are you maxing out your 401K?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:01]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, we\u2019re doing 20% on Brad\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a020% of his income at 60,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:10]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. Oh good. Okay. So you\u2019re maxing it out. Fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:13]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. And mine\u2019s only at 8% because I was too scared to do too much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on. We need to correct this real quick. This is one of those things that will change. Angie, the key thing that I would say is a couple making $250,000 a year, who\u2019s savvy with money would never say I am afraid of investing too much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:37]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Particularly when they had not been investing aggressively for a long time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:43]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Fair enough?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:45]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So that\u2019s a mental shift I want you to start making. What would a couple making 250k plus per year, who savvy with money, what would they be doing? This is changing your identity along with increasing your knowledge. Okay?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:02]\u00a0All right. Your savings goals are at 9%, which is about $1,000. If you were 25 years old, I would be like, this is good, but you\u2019re 55 and you told me you want a RV in 10 years. Especially because you only have 3000 bucks in savings.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:20]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who\u2019s tracking all this stuff?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:23]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, that\u2019s me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. Anyone see the costs of having Angie do all this stuff for the last 10 years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:32]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah. I just bought another book for my passwords and stuff because I\u2019m afraid\u2013 I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know what would happen.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I tell you first of all\u2013 it\u2019s not the passwords that are going to save him. Trust me. You could sit him down right now and log him into your accounts. Brad would have no idea what\u2019s going on. Brad, fair to say?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:55]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s a problem for a 30-year-old married couple, but it\u2019s a much bigger problem for a mid-50s couple.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:05]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We got to get real. You know people in your 50s, your friends probably who have gotten sick, maybe even some who\u2019ve passed away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:12]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m not afraid, and I don\u2019t think any of us should be afraid of talking about mortality. We\u2019re all going to die. Let\u2019s just talk about it. So part of that is, that\u2019s one of the reasons I insist that both couples get involved with money. But I\u2019m going to get hit by a bus one day or something, and you think I\u2019m going to leave a grieving wife at the mercy of some Goldman Sachs\u00a0fuck\u00a0face, who\u2019s going to try to circle her like a vulture and charge 1.25% AUM? No.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We listed off some categories in the CSP to give Brad ownership of them. See, when you\u2019ve got one partner who\u2019s been ignoring money for a long time, they need to take ownership. And you can start off small. Groceries would be one, things like that. But I wanted to really dive into the RV that they\u00a0want to\u00a0get and travel around the country in.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Don\u2019t you guys say you want to retire and do the RV thing in 10 years?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:11]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0We were talking like two.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No. What? Two years? Are you serious?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:19]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. But I\u2019m not going to quit working. I\u2019m going to keep working.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, all right. Are you going to sell your house?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:28]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much you going to make from that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:31]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m hoping just under\u2013 the market\u2019s still good in a couple of years. Around 200 or just under that<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0200. That\u2019s all in or minus transaction fees, updating, painting, all that stuff?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:49]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that was without all those things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. So maybe let\u2019s knock off 50k?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:58]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So 150.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:01]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then do you have to buy an RV?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:04]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much does that cost?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:07]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I\u2019m hoping around 80 or 90,000 because we get a used one. We wouldn\u2019t get a brand new one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All right. Fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:17]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0A new one would be extravagant.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:20]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0See?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re simple people. We\u2019re just getting an 80,000-dollar RV. Where\u2019s the money for all this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:27]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019ve already discussed. I tend to say it\u2019ll all work out. And I just want to have my eyes more open before we get there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, step one is that it\u2019s not your eyes alone that need to decide this. It\u2019s Brad\u2019s.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:46]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You alone cannot carry the load anymore. So that\u2019s number one. How much have you spent on renovations?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:54]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0A lot.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like how much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:57]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, we built a pond in our backyard, so that was about 15, $20,000 probably.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Simple people. Simple people with a pond. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:12]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Did a lot of tree removal, and so over the last two years, that\u2019s been about at least, I think 10,000<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a025. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:23]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0We remodeled our bathroom. I keep thinking about wanting to redo my laundry room, but\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:30]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I can\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So far that\u2019s about 40k. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:32]\u00a0Forget about the fact that you want to do a RV thing two years from now. If they go, we\u2019re 55, we have less than $3,000 in savings, and we want to drop 40k on home renovations, I\u2019d be like, no way.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:46]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s no way. It makes no financial sense. Second, I want to point out that this whole story about, I don\u2019t need all this other fancy stuff, 40k in home renovations is actually quite fancy. It\u2019s just politically acceptable where you live.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:04]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0We don\u2019t need all this fancy stuff. We\u2019re going to just renovate our house. We\u2019re going to do it ourselves. We\u2019re people of the earth, and it\u2019s going to come back to us because it\u2019s an investment. So when we sell it, da, da, da. Story upon story upon story. But the fact is, we\u2019re looking at the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:23]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s just no savings. $3,000 a month being paid for debt. So the stories are not lining up with reality. Okay?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:32]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now, would I say you have to sell your house today? No, but would I say if it stops you from renovating more, you should? Maybe. Or just stop renovating.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:41]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do y\u2019all see that you have been overspending, even though you\u2019ve told yourself you haven\u2019t?<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:49]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So this story that you tell yourself is totally incongruous with reality.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:55]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Agreed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s no reason to take a HELOC. There\u2019s no reason.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:00]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brad, are you aware that as it currently stands, you cannot go in the RV two years from now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:07]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0It wasn\u2019t a set date. It\u2019s a goal. If it takes three years, if it takes five years\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:13]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s not the question, though.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can\u2019t do it in five years either.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:26]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you feel about that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:29]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, I would\u2019ve liked to have done that. I don\u2019t want to wait until I\u2019m 65 to go and do these things, and then I\u2019m too old to hike up that mountain or something. I don\u2019t want to wait until I\u2019m\u2013 you hear about people, they retire and they\u2019re literally dead in five years. I\u2019d rather do it now when we\u2019re still relatively healthy and can do those things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s interesting that I\u2019ve asked you several times, Brad, like, how do you feel about something? And I\u2019ve never once gotten an emotional answer. And as a guy who, probably like you, was not raised talking about feelings a lot, I totally understand it. I completely understand it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:16]\u00a0When I ask you how you feel about certain things, I\u2019m not just asking for no reason. I notice your response is typically to minimize it. Oh, it\u2019s not so bad. Oh, three years is actually fine. Maybe five, maybe nine. It\u2019s not that big of a deal.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:30]\u00a0And if you were to actually access how you feel about it and you were to actually rip away the shield of armor and maybe get really honest, maybe really vulnerable in a way that you haven\u2019t been too often around money, I think that might actually connect with Angie and make her understand the effects of what is going on, particularly the overspending. Look at Angie\u2019s face right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:54]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Brad, you do that thing, which is, you say everything\u2019s going to be okay. And as a provider in all these gendered ways, that\u2019s what a lot of people, particularly men, are taught to do. It\u2019s going to be fine. Any of this sound familiar?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:17]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh yeah. When Angie was going through her cancer, I said, it\u2019s okay. Chemo\u2019s only going to be one season. It\u2019s going to be winter, and by spring all that\u2019ll be behind us and we\u2019ll be onto a new chapter in our lives. And that\u2019s just how I handle\u2013 trying to handle things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Thank God, because, thank God, Angie, that you\u2019re okay. I\u2019m thankful for that. I know you two are thankful. Sometimes you have to be that, just the person who can stay positive because someone else is going through something really tough like you did, Angie. Thank God for that. But this is not the time for that, Brad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:53]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0This isn\u2019t the time to put your head in the sand. It\u2019s happened for 10 years. And it\u2019s not the time to say it\u2019s all going to be okay. It\u2019s actually the time to say, you know what? I really want to go on this RV trip with you, Angie, and if we don\u2019t do it next year, okay, I could wait two years. I can even wait three, but I\u2019m going to be pretty disappointed if we can\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:15]\u00a0It would actually make me regret a lot of this stuff we\u2019re doing. Or Angie, it confuses me when I come home and see a rug because that\u2019s money that could be going towards our RV excursion. And it hurts because I thought we were focused on the same thing. Now, watch this, Brad. Angie, if Brad said that to you, how would you react?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:42]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, just hearing it makes me feel\u2013 well, it makes me feel a little guilty at first, but it releases some pressure from like, I have to make everything perfect. And I can\u2019t do that because I\u2019m spending the money doing that and it\u2019s derailing our other plans.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And you can\u2019t do it alone.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:04]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0And I can\u2019t do it alone. And it just feels like\u2013 yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can\u2019t get where you\u2019re going unless the two of you are both rowing in the same direction. Here\u2019s what I would be doing. I would first sit down and have a serious conversation with each other about this RV thing we\u2019ve talked about.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:24]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s revisit it. How serious are we? And everything\u2019s on the table. Maybe it\u2019s the thing we want to do, maybe not. Maybe we want to try it for a month. We\u2019ll rent an RV. Let\u2019s just play it all out. What does it look like? Because right now it sounds like you\u2019re burning the boats. We\u2019re going to buy an RV and all this stuff. Maybe. I don\u2019t know that you can afford to buy an RV at age 55 with $3,000 in savings.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:51]\u00a0I think you could rent one. I think there\u2019s a big surplus of RV owners who realize it\u2019s a lot more expensive than they think. I\u2019m sure you know plenty of them. You go, all right, your misfortune is my great luck, and I\u2019m going to happily rent for a little while. And another way might be, no, we want to buy one. Okay, fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:09]\u00a0So what\u2019s it going to take for us to buy it? And you start to go down each of these paths and you\u2019re having these connective conversations. And one of you is going, I don\u2019t really feel that good about this option, the rental option for example. Gosh, this is making me uncomfortable because I always imagined us having our own RV.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:29]\u00a0But if it was the choice of not doing it at all or renting it, I could probably get on board to rent it, at least try that to start with stuff like that. You\u2019re talking honestly. And then you\u2019re looking at the numbers and saying, what do we need to be doing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:43]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:44]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019d just like to spend my later years with Angie doing fun things now that we\u2019re empty nesters. It\u2019d be nice to just go on some adventures with her. Doesn\u2019t have in a RV.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Love that. Love the flexibility, Brad. That\u2019s cool. Angie, what are you hearing?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:07]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0He said some of these things to me before, but I\u2019ve been solely down this one path. But not really because I\u2019m not planning properly for it. I like that feeling of having these meetings and talking about it and having someone else to help me because I don\u2019t know all the right things to do. I try to educate myself, but it feels like relief to me, honestly. It feels like relief. I can change some things and we can have more of a combined effort to get there, so that makes me feel encouraged.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, let\u2019s check out their follow-ups and then I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0share my thoughts. First, Angie.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:52]\u00a0<strong>Angie:<\/strong>\u00a0I learned that I am giving away a lot of my income, whether that means to things that I probably didn\u2019t need, things that I felt like I deserved, that kind of thing. So I\u2019ve really reevaluated that and will continue to do that. What surprised me is that I did not know how to ask for help from my husband. I didn\u2019t know that I was keeping that all inside so much. I just thought I was just doing the bills.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:26]\u00a0What changes will I make? I\u2019ve been working on our conscious spending plan and was able to move our fixed costs down from 70%, along with Brad\u2019s help, down to 59%. So it\u2019s still a little high, but it\u2019s in the range that you created. So I think that\u2019s good. And the thing that most resonated, I think, is that my rich life means that I want to do this RV experience with my husband and my little dogs and travel around the country and see all of our kids and all of the places that they are and see our country. So I want to do all those things. So we\u2019re going to make this happen.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now Brad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:07]\u00a0<strong>Brad:<\/strong>\u00a0I learned from our talk that Angie and I, if we want to pursue this goal of ours of selling our house and doing the RV life that we need to buckle down a lot more and focus on the bigger picture instead of tiny things like small amounts of debt, and things like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:36]\u00a0So we went through our spreadsheet and looked at some things that we could cut out. Managed to get to a good starting point at least. We still need to find some other areas where we can make up for some investing and things like that. What changes will I make? There\u2019s some simple things I could be doing like not going out to lunch so much and putting premium gas in my car, or things like that. I think that\u2019s about it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0First off, I\u00a0want to\u00a0thank Brad and Angie for coming on and discussing their finances. It is incredibly courageous for anyone to come on this show and open up what may be the most intimate part of our culture, our finances. With that said, candidly, I\u2019m disappointed in these follow-ups. I think there were a couple realizations, like Angie asking for help from Brad. Brad taking a little bit of ownership over a couple of categories. But when you\u2019re in your mid-50s making 245,000 and you have essentially no money in savings and\u00a0\u00a0debt,\u00a0there\u2019s some big realizations to be had.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:47]\u00a0Now, I do know that for a lot of people it\u2019s difficult to think ahead. It\u2019s difficult to make a long-term plan. I get that, and I have a lot of compassion for how hard this is, especially with\u00a0money.\u00a0\u00a0But when I spend several hours with a couple who applies to be on this podcast, of course, my ultimate hope is that they make a big change.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:09]\u00a0Unfortunately, that\u2019s just not a reality for everyone. It\u2019s very possible in life to go through making more and more money simply looking at what\u2019s in front of you, a new car, home renovation, RV, and you chase that feeling bad the entire time. And that is not a rich life.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:31]\u00a0I want you to feel good. I want you to feel confident, competent, and I actually think if you put a little bit of planning into it, you can live a much richer life than you ever thought\u00a0possible.\u00a0Anyway, that\u2019s my philosophy.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:45]\u00a0I\u00a0want to\u00a0thank Brad and Angie for coming on the show, being so open with me. I do wish the best for you, and I would love to hear an update from you a year from now. For everyone who watches and listens to this show,\u00a0thank you so much for being a part of it, for listening, for leaving comments, for sending me feedback, all of it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:02]\u00a0This is one of my favorite things I\u2019ve done in 20 years of running my business.\u00a0And a lot of it is because all of you in the community are with me every single week. Thanks, and I\u2019ll see you next week.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Brad and Angie, 55 and 56, are each 10 years into a second marriage. With six adult children out of the house, they\u2019re planning to buy an RV and tour the country in as little as two years. Carrying credit card debt, student loans, a HELOC, mortgage, and only $3,000 saved\u2014can they? This episode is [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118924","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118924","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118924"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118924\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118924"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118924"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}