{"id":118930,"date":"2024-01-30T13:26:47","date_gmt":"2024-01-30T17:26:47","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=118930"},"modified":"2026-02-23T15:33:48","modified_gmt":"2026-02-23T19:33:48","slug":"141-kevin-april","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/141-kevin-april\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 141. \u201cWe only have $2k in savings but she can\u2019t stop going to the mall\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe only have $2k saved\u2026 but she can\u2019t stop shopping\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/iJvF0VoHMQ0\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/2tnhHUYBv0Q3yrkwr6wPJZ?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>April and Kevin are in their mid thirties with two kids. They\u2019ve been married for twelve years and Kevin recently came across a good book on finance\u2014one which empowered him to learn more about their finances. What he found shocked him, and has driven deep cracks in their marriage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>This episode is brought to you by:<\/strong><\/p>\n<p>Calm | Go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/calm.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/calm.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0for 40% off unlimited access to Calm\u2019s entire library.<\/p>\n<p>Facet | Get affordable, accessible financial planning with a flat fee membership. For a limited time, the $250 enrollment fee will be waived when you sign up at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/facet.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Masterclass | For unlimited access to every class and 15% off an annual membership, go to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/masterclass.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Fabric by Gerber Life | Protect your family today with Fabric by Gerber Life. Apply today in just 10 minutes at\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/meetfabric.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<p>Rocket Money | Stop throwing your money away. Cancel unwanted subscriptions \u2013 and manage your expenses the easy way \u2013 by going to\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit\">https:\/\/rocketmoney.com\/ramit<\/a><\/strong>.<\/p>\n<h2><strong>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/strong><\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Show Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p>[00:00:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are your kids poor?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:01]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No, they\u2019re not, because we\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me ask April that actually. What would you consider yourselves financially speaking?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:07]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re not broke. We\u2019re not poor, poor, but at the same time, we\u2019re barely making ends meet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what would you call that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:16]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Poor. For me, I feel like you\u2019re poor if you have to check price tags or not being able to go out or I don\u2019t care about that. And so I don\u2019t see how much we\u2019re spending. I say that it\u2019s not a lot, but then it accumulates and then we\u2019re unhappy.<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And why are you upset?<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:40]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I\u2019m the issue.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:00:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meet Kevin and April. They\u2019re both in their mid 30s. They have two children, and they\u2019ve been married for 12 years. Recently, Kevin learned how money worked and suddenly he\u2019s in a big hurry to take control of their finances. The problem is that April has no interest in it. She avoids talking about money.\u00a0She continues to overspend, and this is causing a big problem.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:05]\u00a0As you listen today, I guarantee there\u2019s\u00a0going to\u00a0be points that you are frustrated at. I know that I was frustrated. What I\u00a0want to\u00a0do is encourage you to listen, to push through because there\u2019s some real insights that you can gain from this conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:19]\u00a0\u00a0I have a lot of admiration for the guests who show courage in coming on here and talking about something as intimate as their personal finances. I ask you to respect that, and of course, I\u2019m not\u00a0going to\u00a0put up with any rude comments on my social media. Instead, I ask that we have some constructive comments.<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:37]\u00a0Let\u2019s get to our conversation with Kevin and April.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:01:40]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0So we were at the house, and I was asleep, and he was awake checking, I guess, the bank statement. I heard him say something like, oh\u00a0shit, or something frustrated. And so then I woke up fully, and he told me that I overspent and that I needed to figure it out because we were past, I guess, negatives. We went to work. We came back and I was thinking he wasn\u2019t so mad, but I was the opposite. He was still very mad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then what happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:18]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0He got a piece of paper and a pencil and told me to figure it out how we\u2019re going to pay for the credit cards.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019d you do?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:29]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I tried to ignore it at the beginning, and then I was just like, uh-huh, and just avoiding it. And yeah, the paper was there, and I was there, but I wasn\u2019t really doing anything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then you started to do it. What happened then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:02:42]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I realized that we were in the negatives and that I did go past what I was supposed to spend. So I was trying to get money here and there to see how we can pay it off while we\u2019re still there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s the situation right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:04]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. The only thing that got paid was the house, otherwise the credit cards are still there.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did you overspend on the credit card?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:14]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a01,000 more from what we agreed that I was going to spend.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Which was how much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:20]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0500.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so instead of 500, you spent 1500 in one month on the credit card.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:25]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. All Right. Kevin, what was going through your head when you logged in at night?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:34]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0The frustration came because that\u2019s the discussion we\u2019ve had repeatedly for the past couple of months. And once again, we were in the same situation. We were in the red, dark red. I figured it out the past couple of months by moving money out of the savings, unfortunately. This time, I\u2019m not. Hopefully this time by her doing it, she\u2019s going to open her eyes and be like, whoa, what kind of situation are we in?<\/p>\n<p>[00:03:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And what\u2019s the resolution? Has there been one?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:03]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Probably tonight or tomorrow, we\u2019re good to pay 90% of it. We should be good.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, okay, okay. All right, so there is money. You found a solution that almost covers it, and if there\u2019s 10% left, you\u2019ll get to it next month. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:21]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, that\u2019s not what I want because for the past, what, we\u2019ve been debt free, truly no credit card going month after month for the past nine months now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was going on before nine months? How much credit card debt did you have?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:36]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Love, like 10k?<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:39]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, 10 probably. So traveling and things for the house. We had recently bought the house, and so we were getting things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0But the same dynamics overall, I would say.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:50]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, what do you mean? When you buy a house? That\u2019s it. There\u2019s no additional cost whatsoever. Everybody told me that on the internet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:04:58]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, like accessories for the house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did you not have money set aside for that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:04]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No, not\u2013 no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was the most expensive thing you got for the house?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:08]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The couches, I guess. No, the mattress.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:13]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a01k, right? Something like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on. Kevin, thank you for not speaking up. April, I want to ask you. Were you the ones who made the purchases?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:23]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We both did. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. When you buy stuff, do you look at the price?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:29]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:32]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Majority, yes, but it accumulates because let\u2019s say I buy a top for 20 bucks but then I have to get jeans and something that matches<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:44]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Shoes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t mind. I get the feeling you think I\u2019m going to judge you for buying an outfit. Am I reading that correctly?<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:52]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Because it\u2019s multiple outfits and that\u2019s the reason why we\u2019re here.<\/p>\n<p>[00:05:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Can we recalibrate what\u2019s going on here? I feel like you\u2019re playing defense against something I haven\u2019t even said. You\u2019re worried that I\u2019m going to come and berate you. I wouldn\u2019t be good at my job if that\u2019s what I do. My goal is not to come on here and tell you you\u2019re wrong. My goal is to help you come up with a solution to what\u2019s going on here. Is that fair?<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:20]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So I\u2019m not here to criticize. I\u2019m here to help.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:25]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Tell me about the travel.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:29]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0So Kevin\u2019s from Europe. Our first born was born there. And so to me, I feel like they should always go to their roots, never forget where they come from.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:40]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Since that was like my first year teaching, I felt like I deserved the entire sacrificing nights and graduating at 30 with two kids. I decided to go to Europe with the kids for the summer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:06:57]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0And so Kevin only went for two weeks, but I stayed there and we rented a car for the two and a half months we were there. And we went to visit other cities.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How was it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:12]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0It was amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah? What was your favorite part of that trip?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:17]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I think just being back there and reliving the experiences that I had but now with the kids, where we got married, the park, the food, the restaurants, everything, getting on [Inaudible] the roadway, the train, just because they were so obsessed with it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. How old are the kids?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:40]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0One is 10, and the other one is seven.<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I love seeing the smile on your face when you talk about these expansive things about traveling and taking the kids. I love it. What part did money play in the planning of this trip?<\/p>\n<p>[00:07:54]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Not much. It was just like a swipe and forget about it, until we come back. I didn\u2019t even think about anything to be honest. I was just shopping and going places.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And what happened when you got back and you looked at the credit card bill?<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:17]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Shocked. It\u2019s easy to just swipe and not think about it. And then once the numbers are there, it\u2019s like, oh\u00a0shit.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Here\u2019s what we\u2019ve learned so far. April is an avoider. You can hear it loud and clear. She doesn\u2019t know what they spend. She doesn\u2019t know what the bills are. And even when Kevin realized that she\u2019d overspent again and he handed her a piece of paper to figure it out, what did she do? She simply sat there with the paper in front of her.<\/p>\n<p>[00:08:45]\u00a0You can notice that she seems hesitant and at times embarrassed. And so what I try to do is I try to recalibrate our conversation because I really need her engaged. Finally, I noticed that when we talk about her clothes and her kids, April, lights up. Very important. Keep that in mind as we continue on.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:03]\u00a0\u00a0Don\u2019t go anywhere. We\u2019ll be right back after this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:06]\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to the conversation.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:09]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I was pretty much minimum wage.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Really?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:11]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I was mid-level management in retail, so that\u2019s not much.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How much did you make per year back then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:18]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a050.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a050,000. Okay. So what was life like back then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:24]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We were living at her parents.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. Okay. Hold on. Now I\u2019m like, I did not know this. You were making 50k, and April, were you working at the time?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:34]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I was at school.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You were at school. Okay. What type of school?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:38]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I went to get my bachelor\u2019s degree.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Got it. So you were not working. You were staying at your parents. So you had, I assume, no rent. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Very minimal.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:48]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0200. So it wasn\u2019t anything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What about childcare expenses?<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:54]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The kids were in school, so it was free.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So your expenses were pretty low.<\/p>\n<p>[00:09:59]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what was life like? Were you fighting about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:05]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it was amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Whoa. Tell me more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:09]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, because my parents, if we ever went to go eat, they would pay, or food they pay. The only thing we needed to pay them was 200 a month. And so the entire paycheck was for us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019d you do with the money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:28]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Clothes or when we went out.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And then what happened? Why not stay there forever?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:34]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No, because it was time to move on. The kids were growing. My parents\u2019 house was too small.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:43]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0So once I graduated and I started my job, that\u2019s when we bought the house and reality hit our faces.<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What was that reality?<\/p>\n<p>[00:10:55]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0That little by little goes to a whole bunch, like thousands, on debt.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:05]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0And yeah, that it\u2019s overspending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s so interesting because when you were living with your parents, you had less money, way less money, but your expenses were very low, almost zero. So then your household income increases a lot, but your expenses went up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:27]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And what else changed? Or what else stayed the same? Something about your spending, April.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:34]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0My spending increased.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Why did it increase?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:38]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I was making more.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. And what does that mean to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:41]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0It means being able to swipe it and not think about it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Because I worked hard and therefore\u2013 finish the sentence.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:50]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Work hard, so you could spend hard.<\/p>\n<p>[00:11:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh. Wow. Okay. Damn, that was aggressive. I thought you were going to say, I work hard, so I deserve to treat myself. But you said work hard so I could go hard, spend hard.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:01]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I have that in my classroom. Work hard so you can shop harder.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You have that sign in your classroom?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:10]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What lesson does that communicate? Wait, what? Hold on. What age are you teaching?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:18]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Nine-year-olds. Third grade.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Say the sign again for me, please.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:23]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Work hard so you can shop harder\u2013 in the little library of my classroom.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Sometimes I have to spend four hours digging out a clue from someone\u2019s great-grandmother, and then other times there\u2019s a sign, literally a physical sign.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:39]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0It took another year to now actually pay everything off.<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And when you finally paid it off, did you know that it was paid off?<\/p>\n<p>[00:12:51]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, because we, I froze the other account where\u2013 the credit card that I used, it\u2019s frozen and it\u2019s to not be used.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who did that? You or Kevin?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:04]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The freezing one? Me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. You froze your own account.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:08]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. I still have it, but I don\u2019t use it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:13]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0One, the interests are way higher on that one. And then we ended up getting a different ones that we\u2019re currently using\u2013 A Chase and a Wells Fargo.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wells Fargo?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:28]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Kevin read your book, and it was one of the good ones that have the points or better interest.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wells Fargo takes advantage of people who look like you and me. You know that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:46]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, they do. They\u2019re predatory, and they were fined by the government billions of dollars for going after minorities, people of low income. Kevin knows after he read the book. Did you read the book?<\/p>\n<p>[00:13:59]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I did.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0April, how about you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:02]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I got to chapter one or two.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. It\u2019s further than most at least on this show. Okay. All right, so you froze the account. You have a new credit card. You\u2019ve stayed out of debt until just now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:21]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Would you say that you\u2019re here because Kevin wants to have this conversation, or is it you as well?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:29]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Kevin wants it, and I want it too because we can\u2019t go on like this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How come?<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:38]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We have two kids, and I want to save for their education, but because of my over overspending, we can\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s a good reason. But just to push on that for a second, you said we can\u2019t go on as we\u2019ve been going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:52]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why not? It doesn\u2019t seem that bad.<\/p>\n<p>[00:14:56]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We\u2019re breaking even, and we can\u2019t give them max that we could for the kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:02]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0We went through a lot of stuff. We worked very hard to be where we are. And yes, we are not high earners, but this shouldn\u2019t be our life right now. We shouldn\u2019t be bickering. We shouldn\u2019t be fighting over\u00a0bullshit\u00a0stuff. And then during the application, I\u2019ve been trying\u2013 your book recommends to have your money dates to have the money conversation, and it\u2019s a complete shell, complete shell closing down, and I cannot approach it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that mean, shell? Describe that to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0That April completely closes down.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ah. So tell me, you say what, and then what is her reaction?<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I try to approach with my beautiful spreadsheet. It did not work.<\/p>\n<p>[00:15:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What? Hold on, hold on. Let that settle for a second. This man takes a lot of pride in his spreadsheet. Okay. And for anyone watching, April just completely touched his heart. That\u2019s their third child, and then she rolled her eyes. Amazing. So you have a beautiful set of spreadsheets.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:15]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Just a recap of our spending for the month, and we tried talking about it from there. Didn\u2019t really work. There is no really reaction, and at some point there are emotions coming in from her. And I\u2019m like, oh\u00a0shit, I did something wrong.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What kind of emotions?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:33]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Tears.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:35]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I cry.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:39]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Just seeing it. I see that it\u2019s not a lot, but then it accumulates and then we\u2019re unhappy. I\u2019m upset also, so I cry. But then the next month is the same.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And why are you upset?<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:57]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I\u2019m the issue.<\/p>\n<p>[00:16:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that true? How so?<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:08]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I\u2019m the one that goes to the store with the kids, and we\u2019re the purchaser, so I\u2019m the one that\u2019s buying the stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Kevin and April had an interesting situation where they were living with her parents, and even while they had low incomes, they were paying almost nothing for housing and childcare, and they described that as amazing. But then when they started earning more and their kids got older, they moved out, and that\u2019s where the problems began.<\/p>\n<p>[00:17:41]\u00a0What do you make of that? You remember how I talk about people being artificially subsidized? This right here is an example of that. Because they never really had any expenses,\u00a0they never had any skin in the game, so they never had to actually figure out how to make financial choices within their means.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:00]\u00a0This is one of the reasons that I insist both partners talk about money and engage with money. You cannot just have one partner doing it because the other one then becomes artificially subsidized.\u00a0Not only that. One day when one person gets hit by a bus, that partner is left grieving and totally defenseless. Both partners have\u00a0got to\u00a0be involved.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:20]\u00a0So what happened here with Kevin and April is they got released to the world and they didn\u2019t know how to spend their money in a responsible way. Now, I don\u2019t mind that they didn\u2019t know. I don\u2019t mind. None of us are born knowing how to handle money, but what really matters is if they, and specifically April, wants to change. If she does, I can help her. If deep down she doesn\u2019t actually\u00a0want to\u00a0change, there\u2019s absolutely nothing I can do for them.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what can I help you with? You\u2019re here. April, what can I help you with? And then Kevin, I\u2019ll ask you the same question.<\/p>\n<p>[00:18:58]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Mainly for me, the financial\u00a0commitment\u00a0of not overspending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:04]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I think I hit a mini midlife financial crisis or something like this. And when you run the numbers, you\u2019re like, oh\u00a0shit. It\u2019s not as bright as it looks, so we need to do something about it. And so we started\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hold on, let me get this straight. You were making close to minimum wage for a long time. No problem. Life was good. You were living with her parents. Right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:26]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0When you don\u2019t save and you don\u2019t invest and you don\u2019t put anything into your 401K, you have more money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s true. That\u2019s a very good point. All right, so then you move. You get a house, but still you\u2019re not fighting. There\u2019s no problems. But it was only when you started to get educated about money. That\u2019s when the fighting started.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:49]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0And I\u2019m not going to lie. I am usually the one initiating.<\/p>\n<p>[00:19:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so this is quite interesting. April, when you think about getting educated about money, what does that mean to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:04]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0To have goals and to\u00a0stick to them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But what happened when Kevin got educated about money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:11]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The fighting began. My crying began.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Can I ask that question again and you gimme an honest answer? What does being educated about money mean to you? What happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:22]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0It was an eye-opener where I didn\u2019t know I was spending that much and I really need to be\u00a0committed\u00a0to saving.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Would it be fair to say that\u2013 are you committed to saving?<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:43]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I feel like\u00a0I need to\u00a0and\u00a0I have to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s a no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:49]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, yes.\u00a0I need to\u00a0save, and\u00a0I need to\u00a0stop buying things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:20:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You ever hear people say, I need to go to the gym?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:02]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do those people go to the gym?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:04]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So can I ask the question again? Because I asked April, are you committed to saving money? And your answer was, I need to, just like I need to go to the gym.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:14]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I\u2019m\u00a0committed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know what that means. It\u2019s just a word. Look at my face. Do I look convinced at all?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:21]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you convinced the way you\u2019re talking about it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:25]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, halfway,\u00a0yes\u00a0and no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You can\u2019t make a big change if you don\u2019t believe in it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:31]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes,\u00a0yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That was fast. What just changed in the last 10 seconds ago? What happened?<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:38]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Well,\u00a0yes,\u00a0I am,\u00a0and\u00a0I need to, and\u00a0I have to, and yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:21:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. I\u2019ll take you at your word. I appreciate that. Cool. That makes my job easier. All right, Kevin, so you got educated about money. You shined a light on what was going on, which previously it was like having an attic where you never go up there and it\u2019s like, ah, who cares? There\u2019s nothing up there. And then one day you go up there and you\u2019re like, oh my God, there\u2019s 30 rats up here and a spider web and it\u2019s just like, this is insane. What happened then when you shined the light?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:13]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0So the first thing I wanted was for her to start following me along, not to be alone talking about it and for her to understand what some of the stuff means. And so I tried to ask her to read your book. The book sat on the night stand for a month, and every other day I was like, all right, so maybe one chapter a week. All right. Did you read it today? And nothing. And so at some point I give up.<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Looking back now, when you approached her excitedly about this book, what do you think her perception was?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s a good question. Why should I?<\/p>\n<p>[00:22:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:00]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s hard. It\u2019s hard for me to put myself in that place because after reading it, I saw the benefits of it, and we were not in the same mind space at that moment, I think.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, let me rewind for a second. Let\u2019s pretend I came to you five years ago and I gave you this book. I said, you really should read it. So cool. What would you have done?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:24]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Not read it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:26]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because there was no point for me at that time.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh. Why is that? Why would there have been no point for you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:32]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because that did not come to any realization that I needed it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:37]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Everything was going pretty well.<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. I think you\u2019re very perceptive. Now, let me ask the question to you again. When you handed that book to your wife and you asked her to read it, what do you think her experience was? What was she feeling?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:52]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0The same. Why would I need it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Because?<\/p>\n<p>[00:23:55]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because everything seems to go well. But the part I do not understand is that before reading your book, the numbers were showing something different, and so I was like, all right, that\u2019s the first step to get help.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What if she\u2019s not ready to get help? What if she doesn\u2019t even see the need for help?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:17]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Then that\u2019s also reason we applied.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So for April, when you say everything is going fine financially for her\u2013 let\u2019s just assume that that\u2019s true for a second. We\u2019re going to check with her in a minute. Describe that. How are things going fine for April from her financial perspective?<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:39]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0She can go shopping when she wants.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0She has been used in the past to eat out on the weekend, and that\u2019s what was happening.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:51]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0There was zero consequences to any of the behavior.<\/p>\n<p>[00:24:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Things are fine, even though I know I need to save for the kids. We need to save, but it\u2019s not happening. What would she tell herself to reconcile those two things?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:05]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I can do it later.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Bingo.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I can start later.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I\u2019ll get to it later. We all do that. Oh, I\u2019ll go to the gym later. I\u2019ll clean the house later. I\u2019ll organize my desk later, and on and on. That\u2019s so normal. That\u2019s as human as it comes. Now let\u2019s check with April and see if any of this is true. April?<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:26]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I think it\u2019s we\u2019ll come back to it later, or we can start later.<\/p>\n<p>[00:25:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s no real reason for April to read the book. If I put myself in April\u2019s shoes, I\u2019m thinking life was great until my husband read this godforsaken book called I Will Teach You To Be Rich. Then he started concocting this elaborate spreadsheet trying to get me to sit down and look at these stupid numbers. We get in fights all the time about money. I\u2019m good. I\u2019m exaggerating, but what do you think of the basic point?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:07]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I agree. And then he bought the journal and we started off and we didn\u2019t finish it. I don\u2019t know. I think it was, for me, like my dreams were about traveling while his were about stability or investing. When I thought, or when I think about money, I don\u2019t think about that. I think about the happiness about going places.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you think Kevin feels that you won\u2019t engage with him on money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:42]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019m in denial or just not interested.<\/p>\n<p>[00:26:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Allow me to be the person who is very direct with you. Kevin is telling you that he needs you to be interested in money for your family, and at every turn you are rejecting him.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:04]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you think that makes him feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:07]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Upset.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:11]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Angry. Angry at me, frustrated with the situation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You want to ask him?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:18]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you feel, Kevin?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:20]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Defeated. I\u2019m going to say defeated, just feeling alone. The same way you\u2019ve been feeling alone for a couple of other stuff, I feel alone in there, and it is the way that together we would make so much progress much faster. Here we are dragging back, and I don\u2019t know. I have the feeling there is no long term, you know?<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:46]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:27:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s the short terms, oh, let\u2019s spend that at the mall. Let\u2019s go eat out Friday, Saturday, Sunday. But in my mind, it\u2019s amazing. I would love to go to Disney, to Africa, to Bora Bora, to Europe, to Italy, wherever, but like this year, we\u2019re not going to be able to go on vacation. And that\u2019s sad. That\u2019s extremely sad to me.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0If you\u2019re watching on YouTube, you\u2019ll notice that we\u2019ve added a commit counter.\u00a0\u00a0Guys just saying I need to commit does not do anything.\u00a0I can\u2019t go up to the top of a building and say, I\u00a0want to\u00a0fly, and then jump off a building. It\u2019s meaningless. It\u2019s just a word.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:33]\u00a0When you say things like, I need to change, I need to save more, we need to do this, I shouldn\u2019t buy that, you know what you\u2019re doing? People do that because they feel guilty, and saying those things is a way of self-flagellating, of punishing themselves because they\u2019ve been bad.\u00a0The problem, of course, is that guilt is not an effective emotion for behavioral change.<\/p>\n<p>[00:28:55]\u00a0And over the years, we are very clever at how we adapt to get the things we want. I\u00a0want to\u00a0buy a new outfit, but deep down, I know that my husband or my wife told me we can\u2019t afford it. Ah, I know what I\u2019ll do. I\u2019ll tell myself for two months I shouldn\u2019t buy it. I shouldn\u2019t be bad. And then after doing penance, I\u2019ll buy it anyway and then tell myself, that was really bad. I need to be good next month. Does this sound weird to anyone else?\u00a0It\u2019s really weird to me, and it\u2019s exactly how so many of us do things in America.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:25]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a quick pause for a message from our sponsors<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:29]\u00a0Let\u2019s get back to Kevin and April.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:30]\u00a0April has just learned that Kevin feels defeated when he talks to her about money. Listen to her reaction.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you take that, April?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:41]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Upset too because we\u2019re partners and we\u2019re supposed to do things together.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did he say when he told you how he felt?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:52]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Defeated.<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:29:56]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Upset. Basically upset with me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Not sure he said that. What exact words did he say? He said defeated. That\u2019s one. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:09]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s a whole bunch of things, things that I should know, but I don\u2019t follow through.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think if you really want to change, step one is to actually listen to what your partner is saying. I\u2019m not good at this. I know I need to do this. I\u2019m overspending. You\u2019re repeating this old story. Would you agree?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:38]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When Kevin comes to you and he talks about money, and then you instantly go, I know I need to save more. I know it\u2019s my fault. What does it get you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:49]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Learning I\u2019m in the loophole.<\/p>\n<p>[00:30:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But why do you do it? What strategic thing does it get you at that very moment?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:00]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess he doesn\u2019t force it or tries to go past it or avoids it for next month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. And so what does that get you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:18]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0A screw up ticket for next month.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It gets you a huge sigh of relief, doesn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:26]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And I think that it allows you, as you put it, a ticket, get out of jail free ticket for the conversation to end, because now it\u2019s about you. That allows you to not confront the real issue, which is the need to engage with money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:43]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That seems highly destructive to a relationship where you want to grow together.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:51]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What if you could do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:56]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I hope I can.<\/p>\n<p>[00:31:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me ask the question again. What if you could do that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:03]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0It would amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. What\u2019s stopping you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:08]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Overspending on a unnecessary thing<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:13]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Because I just want instant gratification instead of long term.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now we\u2019re getting honest. Let\u2019s talk about your family. What do you remember hearing your family talk about when it came to money as you were a child?<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:32]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0My dad\u2019s a big saver. He doesn\u2019t really like to do anything because he just likes to save.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:39]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0So my mom was a stay-at-home mom until I was in middle school, and then she started working. But before, when she was in Mexico, she was a teacher.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Like you.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:50]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Well, my mom likes to also save, but she also likes to shop.<\/p>\n<p>[00:32:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, keep going.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:00]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Macy\u2019s, Sears.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:02]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:05]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a05, 7, 9, every\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:10]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0All of them.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:11]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. How often would you go shopping at the mall?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:15]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Once a week?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Once a week. Okay. How do you feel about those memories? How do you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:20]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, heartwarming memories and awesome childhood.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:25]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, there\u2019s a lot of love in these times with your mom.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:31]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You still go shopping with her?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:33]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How often?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:36]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0She\u2019s my go-to shopper once a week.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, still? Okay. This is interesting. Where do you shop now?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:46]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0At the mall still.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Same place.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:48]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Same places. Yes. Sometimes she buys me stuff and other times I buy it myself.<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. Were you spoiled as a kid?<\/p>\n<p>[00:33:59]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I mean, not spoil, but they would buy me stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:05]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Kevin? What was that look on your face?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:08]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, she was. Based on the size of her closet. I\u2019ve never seen a closet like this.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, this closet that you currently have?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:16]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can I see this closet? April, please, will you take this computer into the closet? Would you be willing to do it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:24]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Sure. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh my God. Amazing. Hold on. I have to take a deep breath. Okay. April, take us with you, but let\u2019s go slowly. Do not move the camera fast. Let\u2019s go really slow through the house. So just take us to your closet. Oh, okay. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. This is the greatest moment in my life. First of all, show us to shoes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:45]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. I like to wear flats.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, okay, okay. Hold on. I need to take a deep breath. So this is your closet, April?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:54]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, it is.<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so let\u2019s start from one side, just break it down for us. What are we looking at?<\/p>\n<p>[00:34:58]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so these are the dresses that I\u2019ve bought that I\u2019m going to tell myself that I\u2019m going to wear because I have to.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0You notice the tags?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They have tags on them?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:10]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What\u2019s next?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:11]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The pants.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:13]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Short dresses, blouse, comfortable t-shirts.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:21]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Regular t-shirts, other short sleeves blouses. Now it\u2019s mixed. My leisure pants.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:32]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Working out in these.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, okay. Yeah. Okay, just relaxed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:34]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Leisure wear.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:36]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The sports ones where we used to go to the gym. The shorts are summer clothes and my winter clothes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Winter. Wait, where do you both live?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0My point exactly.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wait, wait. Where, for real?<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:56]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Houston, Texas.<\/p>\n<p>[00:35:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So April, if you can just step out of the closet and just give me a full look inside it. Yeah. Perfect. So right here, this is perfect. When you look at this, what do you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:09]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Happiness.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:12]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Memories that we\u2019ve had wearing the clothes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:16]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:17]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t know. Feeling nice, looking nice.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0When you come here in the morning to get dressed, how do you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:26]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Happy, joyful. I just look at the clothes and I\u2019m like, oh, I did a good job buying it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Awesome. All right, let\u2019s go back to the area you were sitting. Kevin, did you want to add anything to what April just shared?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No, it\u2019s overwhelming enough as it is. I think it\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that the word you used to describe it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:47]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, it\u2019s too much to me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I see.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:51]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Unnecessary.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow, that\u2019s interesting. Because to April, that\u2019s one of April\u2019s points of pride.<\/p>\n<p>[00:36:59]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And Kevin, to you, you\u2019re saying it\u2019s overwhelming and unnecessary. Gosh. Do you think that that might have anything to do with the way that both of you see money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:11]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we see it completely differently based on the upbringing, based on the culture, based on a lot. And we need to\u2013 how do you say it in English? Cross that bridge to be together.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That was incredibly fascinating. In America, it is somewhat intimate to invite someone into your house. It is extremely intimate to talk about your finances. It\u2019s 1,000 times more intimate to invite them into your closet. It\u2019s funny. My wife Cassandra runs a personal styling business at nextlevelwardrobe.com, and she tells me all about the psychology of people\u2019s closets, how it represents their memories, their aspirations, wearing a fancy dress one day or being able to fit into a pair of jeans from eight years ago.<\/p>\n<p>[00:37:57]\u00a0And she tells me how much overwhelm it produces for people literally every single day. I learned from her how profound the psychology of our closets really is. That\u2019s why you saw me getting so excited for April to show me her closet, because I know that it reveals so much about what she values. In fact, I\u2019d say it\u2019s the first time she\u2019s really opened up to me today.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:21]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Well,\u00a0my dad doesn\u2019t really like to\u2013 when we were little, he would like to travel. As we got older, he started to get boring, so he just stays home and everything with him, it\u2019s like, oh, well, how much does this cost? How much is this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s all about cost.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:41]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How does that make you feel?<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:45]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0At some point, I did have that into consideration growing up, but then I started making my own money, and I was like, haha, let me get it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:38:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right. Can I translate? Tell me if this is accurate. Dad was obsessed with cost. I always had to tell him how much everything, cost, cost, cost, cost. Now that I earn my own money, I\u2019m never thinking about that again.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:09]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What else happened as you got to be a teenager with money in your family?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:13]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I had a job since 15, but it was just to cover whenever I would go out with my friends and otherwise my parents paid for everything.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:24]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0They paid for school until I got married. They paid for the car, the insurance, the phones.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What did they say no about?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:39]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Nothing.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. They never said no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:43]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Not that much, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Do you ever say no to your kids?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:49]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Not that much, no.<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that a problem or not?<\/p>\n<p>[00:39:56]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, because then they grow up and they\u2019re a me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:01]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, that they\u2019re going to overspend and not think about the consequences. I\u2019m doing the same things that I grew up with. If we would go to the pharmacy and I wanted a candy, it was never a no. It was a, okay, and, get it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:19]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0And so that\u2019s what I\u2019m doing with them. I tell myself no, but then I don\u2019t want to break their little hearts.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0April, do you think that they think more things are better?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:28]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Is that a good or a bad lesson for them to learn?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:33]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Bad lesson.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:34]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:36]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Because it shouldn\u2019t be like that. They should be happy with what they have.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. And what about all the things in your closet?<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:49]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0It shouldn\u2019t be like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:40:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. When you said that you knew you weren\u2019t telling the truth, right? Are you happy with money?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:04]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So why are they going to be happy?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:10]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re going to be upset.<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What else?<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:15]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re going to be upset that their parents didn\u2019t teach them, they didn\u2019t guide them the proper ways of dealing with money.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:41:27]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0April is very good at telling herself stories. All avoiders are, but they can only sustain those stories because they don\u2019t really face any consequences. If Kevin got hit by a bus and April had to figure things out without the support of her parents, she would figure it out in about one month. She would have to. But she doesn\u2019t have to, so she doesn\u2019t. She uses a lot of shoulds. I should spend less, we should save more, but they\u2019re all just words. She even does it when I ask about her kids. Do they believe more things are better? Yes. Is that good? No. What\u2019s\u00a0going to\u00a0happen? They should be happy with what they have. But really mom\u2019s not happy with money, so how are the kids ever\u00a0going to\u00a0be?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Kevin, I\u2019d be curious to hear about your upbringing when it came to money. Where\u2019d you grow up?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:20]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0In Belgium.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What\u2019s the financial culture like there?<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:25]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0There\u2019s zero. You don\u2019t talk about 401k. You don\u2019t really talk about investing. Over there, you have a cost of living that is, I think, lower, but your salaries are much, much lower because you get like, what, 60% taxes or 50-something deducted from your gross, but at the same time, you have healthcare. You have retirement, so you really don\u2019t have to worry about that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:42:49]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0My upbringing was zero when it comes to money, except for my grandfather. My parents got divorced very early on and they fought about, how do you call it? Child support.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:03]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0So I had zero basis when it comes to money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So when you think back to money as a kid, what did you feel back then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:14]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s sad. It\u2019s sad because you don\u2019t get what your friends have<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:18]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Used to play soccer. I was the only freaking kid without a branded shirt, without branded shoes. And I\u2019m like,\u00a0fuck. And then you see your parents fighting for, what was it, 200 bucks, buying me clothes to go to school. What the heck?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm. Okay. So what year did you move to the US?<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:42]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a02016.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So you moved here in 2016.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:45]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Before that, we stayed for five years in Belgium, her and I, married.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:50]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, got it. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:52]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0But the weather was too depressing, so we moved back. But from my parents, no, not really much. My dad would spend all his money drinking.<\/p>\n<p>[00:43:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. How about your mom?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:02]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0She would try to make ends meats as much as she could. And a little bit like April, she would try to buy stuff to make me happy. Would be what? PlayStation, Internet, when it was fancy to have Internet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did it work?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:19]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I was not happy. Now I don\u2019t want that for my kids ever, for them to have the same feeling of\u2013 how do you call it? Deprivation.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:31]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0To feel like, oh, am I poor?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:35]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are your kids poor?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:37]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They\u2019re not. You laugh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:40]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No, they\u2019re not, because we\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:42]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Right.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:43]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Because we\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let me ask April that. What would you consider yourselves financially speaking?<\/p>\n<p>[00:44:51]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, we\u2019re not broke. We\u2019re not poor, poor, but at the same time, we\u2019re barely making ends meet.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So what would you call that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:05]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Poor.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Notice the huge disparity between how they characterize their own finances. Kevin laughs at the idea of them being poor, but April has a totally different definition of it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:18]\u00a0We\u2019ll be right back.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:20]\u00a0Now back to the show.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:21]\u00a0Let\u2019s take a look at their numbers.\u00a0You can follow along with your own free conscious spending plan template at iwt.com\/csp.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:32]\u00a0Was this the first time you\u2019ve truly engaged with your household finances?<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:36]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. To be honest, yes. I don\u2019t know what company we\u2019re on with the electricity or internet. I don\u2019t know any of that, and I don\u2019t care about that, and so I don\u2019t see how much we\u2019re spending.<\/p>\n<p>[00:45:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Kevin, why don\u2019t you read off the word in bold and then the number next to it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:05]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Assets $335,300.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All righty. Next.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:11]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Investments, $44,216.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:17]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Next.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:18]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Savings, 2,381, and debt $302,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Total net worth?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:26]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a079,949.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:28]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.\u00a0Let\u2019s look at income. All right, this one\u2019s\u00a0going to\u00a0be April.\u00a0April, what is your combined gross monthly income?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:37]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a011,596.<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That means that you make $139,000 a year.\u00a0\u00a0Since when did people making $139,000 a year call themselves poor?<\/p>\n<p>[00:46:52]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0For me, I feel like you\u2019re poor if you have to check price tags or not being able to go out or spending\u2013 I grew up with my parents not cooking Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and it was fine, and it\u2019s something that I want to do, and it sucks that\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Did they go to Europe for a month with the kids?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:16]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We would go to Mexico every break.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:19]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That\u2019s different prices, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:21]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh. Did they have the same costs when it came to food, housing back then?<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:30]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Well, back then, it was not\u2013 my dad was very strict about money but then again the houses didn\u2019t cost what they\u2019re costing right now.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that you want to live a lifestyle that is out of step with what you make\u00a0and also how you are spending money.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:53]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0And with\u00a0reality.<\/p>\n<p>[00:47:56]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. If you wanted to be able to eat out Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, you actually could.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:03]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You could. So you have to tell me what\u2019s important to you. That is the question I ask. What is your rich life?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:11]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Vacations. I think vacations is the biggest one.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:20]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So what you\u2019re saying is you want these big, meaningful things to you. What you\u2019re spending on, you describe them as unnecessary things, things that fill up an already full closet. Why? Again, why do you buy them? Think about it carefully before you answer.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:40]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s like the instant gratification rather than thinking about the bigger picture.<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And where did that come from? Where do you first remember feeling happy about buying clothes?<\/p>\n<p>[00:48:54]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0With my mom. With my mom.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, you\u2019re exactly right. Why did you make that sound by the way? Tell me. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:07]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s how I am. This is why I can\u2019t have a job with adults because I\u2019m always making faces.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:11]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No, no, it\u2019s actually very revealing. It seemed to me like you were cringing at a realization you were having. What was that realization?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:23]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0That things that I took from my childhood was the instant gratification rather than the whole vacation or saving up like I should.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0They never taught you to save for a big purchase, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:40]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It was never talked about, right?<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:42]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly what was talked about instead.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:46]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Look at those shoes. A lovely match.<\/p>\n<p>[00:49:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. It\u2019s a very simplistic way of looking at the world. And honestly, you could go your whole life doing that. You could get three more closets, and you can fill up your life, and you could do it. I think there\u2019s two problems. Number one, you\u2019ll be living a life that has not functionally changed since you were 13 years old, which to me is living a smaller life than you have to. Two, it\u2019s going to cause extremely difficult rifts with your family, specifically with Kevin, but also with your kids.<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:25]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Yeah. It\u2019s true. They\u2019re probably going to go through the cycle that I\u2019ve been through, and it\u2019s not in the whole case cycle.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[00:50:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0April just had a breakthrough there. Earlier she said, I think we\u2019re poor because not being poor means you can go and buy whatever you want at any time. If she truly believes they\u2019re poor,\u00a0then what is her alternative? She doesn\u2019t\u00a0want to\u00a0save money because saving takes too long, and she really has never been taught the skills of it. But rather, if she\u2019s got a little bit of money, might as well go spend it because easy come, easy go.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:01]\u00a0This is very common among people who grew up without money. Do you see the connections here? It\u2019s like a cobweb linking everything together. Her mom showed her love by going out, shopping and paying for things. In fact, her mom still does that. April feels love when she buys things, especially clothes and especially things for the house.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:21]\u00a0And now she\u2019s raised kids who are spoiled because they think more is better. April lacks the skills and the willingness to say no to them, but even no to herself. Let\u2019s dig a little bit more into the numbers. Their fixed costs are 65%. Their housing percentage is 22% of gross. Debt payments are $335, which includes student loans and a second loan for master\u2019s degree. And their car payment is $350.\u00a0That includes one Nissan and gas for a paid off Mazda.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Groceries are\u2013 what the\u00a0fuck? 1,800 bucks a month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:56]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Insane.<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What is this?<\/p>\n<p>[00:51:59]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Organic milk, organic eggs.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:02]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s insane.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who shops?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:06]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Both of us.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:07]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Who wants to break it down for me?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:09]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We have more animals to feed.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:13]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We have a total of six.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Ramit\u2019s theory of American pet owners is they never ever stay with one species of animal. They get a dog, and then they instantly switch species, cross species across the entire taxonomy, so it\u2019s like a dog and a cat, or a dog and a gerbil, a dog and a parrot. So tell us. What kind of animals do you have?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:36]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0So right now we have a snapping turtle, a red-eared slider, two African tortoises, bearded dragon and the dog.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You literally got every species on the planet. What\u2019s a red-eared slider? What is that?<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:53]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0So it\u2019s like the water turtle that have the red patch on the ear.<\/p>\n<p>[00:52:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. Why do y\u2019all have so many animals, just out of curiosity?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:02]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I love animals. I believe that they shouldn\u2019t just survive on kibbles, so they have a variety of foods.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like what? Please tell me.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:41]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Crickets, roaches, worms, lettuce, romaine lettuce.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, I guess I was less interested in what they eat. How much does it cost?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:50]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0200 maybe, at most.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:52]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Per month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:52]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0At most.<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:54]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Can we agree that you\u2019re probably just spending a lot on human food? Is that fair?<\/p>\n<p>[00:53:59]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:00]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right. What\u2019s the big stuff?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:03]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The meats.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:07]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Meats and drinks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Meats and drinks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:08]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The alcohol.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:09]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, those kind of drinks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:11]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. Those kind of drinks.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:12]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:13]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Are you guys drinking because you want to forget about how you have not contributed to your retirement account? Is that what\u2019s happening?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:20]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No, he\u2019s [Inaudible] into my Mexican.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:24]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s good though.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:26]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s pretty good. That\u2019s a good answer. Okay. Can I just ask you, setting the animals aside, how much do you think that another couple with two kids spends every month on groceries?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a01100, 1,000.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:46]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I think we can get by with something like that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:48]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think, April?<\/p>\n<p>[00:54:49]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And it\u2019s funny. We bought a meal plan that\u2019s the frugal plan, and we used it once or twice, and we haven\u2019t gone back to it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:06]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0We already have everything saved on our Walmart account, and so we buy everything, and so we get the same stuff instead of like with the meal plan that we bought it\u2019s like we need specific things.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I get that. But that\u2019s interesting. I love that you are using an app and you can click reorder. I love that. I just wonder what would it take to go and cut, let\u2019s say 500 bucks a month off of your grocery bill? Could you do it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:42]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, I think we also buy too much meat, and then it stays in the refrigerator, and then we\u2019ll just throw it away.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:51]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0No, for me it\u2019s commitment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:53]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[00:55:54]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Instead of being like, oh yeah, let\u2019s eat this and that, we got the meal planner or whatever. It\u2019s great. It\u2019s great. We haven\u2019t even given it a try. We haven\u2019t given it a try to be like, all right, let\u2019s reduce a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:07]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you know why you haven\u2019t given it a try and committed to it?<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:10]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I want to find the excuse of time, but I think it\u2019s just an excuse.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s not time. Yeah. That\u2019s an excuse. What\u2019s the real reason? April, you\u2019re smiling. You know.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:17]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s the change. We\u2019re used to cooking this way, and so it\u2019s easier to cook the same thing rather than trying out the cooking. At least for me, I don\u2019t like cooking.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. You have no reason to change. There\u2019s no reason at all. You can click a button. You get all the food. Sure, you throw away a little bit of it and some of it goes bad, but life is still good. Pets are still fed. Kids are still happy at school. They get their chocolate. Kids here are happy. They get their juice. And there\u2019s no reason.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:55]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0So same as the finances, same as everything else.<\/p>\n<p>[00:56:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. There\u2019s not enough pain for you to make a change. Same reason April doesn\u2019t want to cut back. The stakes are not high enough. Life is fine.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:11]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you raise the stake?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:18]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I don\u2019t raise the stakes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:19]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0How do we do it as a team?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:23]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Let\u2019s ask April. Ask her. I\u2019ll listen in.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:25]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Hi, love.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:27]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, hello.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:28]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0How do you think we can raise\u00a0the stakes?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:33]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0For the food?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:33]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0For everything. The food is just an example.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:37]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Giving 100%.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:40]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0How?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:41]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0You want specifically how? I don\u2019t commit to it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Try this. Try this. You\u2019re on the right track. I\u2019m going to just give you a little guidance. What would need to happen in order for us to actually make a serious change with our groceries?<\/p>\n<p>[00:57:59]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0A full commitment, 100% commitment.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Specifics. Something I can see in your house happening. Something I could write down on a clipboard. Something I could draw.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:12]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I think it\u2019s the fact of seeing the vacation budget going up rather than going down.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:21]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0To see the grow in that.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:24]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I could draw that. I could draw that. You could see that. You could see a vacation budget. In fact, you could have one of those little thermometers that\u2019s like Bora Bora. We\u2019re only 38 months away, that kind of thing. Would that be motivating to you?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:39]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:40]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Hmm.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:41]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0I love the idea of the thermometer and establishing our common goal. We have a goal together, and we go towards it.<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:47]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Now we got to pick a number for the actual amount you\u2019re going to spend. What number are we putting here?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:53]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you think, love?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:55]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a01,000. But that\u2019s per month?<\/p>\n<p>[00:58:59]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. I would put 1,200 to start with.<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:05]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah,<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:06]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, so you\u2019re going to cut 600 a month off. Yeah. Okay. That sounds good to me. All right, I\u2019m going to do it. Let\u2019s just see what happens. Instead of 1,800, April, look up here at the fixed cost number. This is the number we\u2019re really caring about, but instead of 1,800, we\u2019re going to do 1,200. Oh my God. It goes down from 65% to 58% fixed costs. That\u2019s a big deal. All right, well done. I think you actually can do 1,200 a month. I think that\u2019s totally reasonable<\/p>\n<p>[00:59:35]\u00a0Although you currently have only $2,000 of savings in your mid 30s with two kids and 50 pets, so that\u2019s a of risk. Again, if something goes wrong, it\u2019s basically like you\u2019re driving 95 miles an hour, and so far so good. But if you hit something, you\u2019re in big trouble. When I look at your current guilt-free spending, the conscious spending plan template shows that you can only spend $1,200 a month, but you are actually spending about $2,500 a month. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:14]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:15]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right, so you\u2019re basically spending more than you make.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:20]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. And it should have stopped months ago.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:25]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0The correlation you\u2019re making are mind blowing. I had never realized any of it or even came close to think about it that way.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:38]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you see why when you gave her the copy of the book, there was no chance she was ever going to read it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:43]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:44]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you see why when you show her a spreadsheet, she does not want to look at it at all?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:48]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:49]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And when you give her a piece of paper and say, do this, she herself admits\u2013 April, what\u2019d you say you tried to do with that piece of paper at first?<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:57]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Avoid it at the beginning.<\/p>\n<p>[01:00:59]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Exactly. Do we all see why? April, what\u2019s the answer there?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:07]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I guess because it was the cycle.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. Something you want to escape from as fast as possible. I can\u2019t find a way for you to fall in love with it. That\u2019s what the journal is for. That\u2019s what you dreaming about it\u2019s for. But until you truly fall in love with what your rich life could be, you\u2019ll forever be fighting back against your husband.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:32]\u00a0You\u2019ll forever be fighting back against engaging with money at all. If you\u2019re spending $2,500 a month on guilt-free spending, what\u2019s the obvious solution here, April?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:48]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Not spending it and moving it to something else.<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, tell me. What are you going to do specifically?<\/p>\n<p>[01:01:57]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0With regards to spending, not carry the credit card. Actually have the cash.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:03]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0I like that. Wow. That\u2019s a good answer. So you\u2019re going to take out the cash. How much are you going to take out per month?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:09]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0The plan was for me to not spend more than 500. They don\u2019t need so much clothes. I don\u2019t need so much clothes. Just buying the necessities instead of the wants.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Do you want to go clean out your closet right now?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:26]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Not right\u2013 no.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. That\u2019s an honest answer.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:31]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Mm-hmm. Seems like you\u2019re losing your breath right now, even thinking about it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:35]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:36]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why is that? Stressful?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:39]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes, it\u2019s stressful not having to buy unnecessary things.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:46]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0But when you buy it, it\u2019s not unnecessary. You want it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:50]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Having the needs from the wants.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You see it and you buy it, right?<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:55]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:02:55]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0That\u2019s not going to change overnight. That\u2019s a skill you have to learn. Would you agree?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:02]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes. It\u2019s going to be challenging.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah. So if I put you in a mall with your mom who you\u2019ve been buying stuff with for literally 20 years, what are the odds that you\u2019re going to walk out of that mall week after week never having spent any money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:18]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Not a lot.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:21]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0It\u2019s low odds. So what do you want to do? You\u2019re essentially putting yourself in danger by doing that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:28]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What do you want to do?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:31]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Not go to the mall with her.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:33]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How come you\u2019re not telling your mom about the financial part of it?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:38]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I think that was more my dad.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:41]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0You want to keep that tradition up?<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:44]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. So maybe it\u2019s time to change it.<\/p>\n<p>[01:03:48]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0So Kevin and I decided that we need to save up for the kids college and vacation, and we don\u2019t want to go on vacation if we don\u2019t have a certain amount saved. So we\u2019re committed to going towards this new change and spending less in order to have a more positive experience.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:22]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Damn, that was nice. That was seriously amazing. How did you feel saying that? That\u2019s tough, right?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:29]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:30]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Like your heart\u2019s racing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:32]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:32]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Why? Tell me. What were you thinking?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:35]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Because it\u2019s something that my mom and I do together. It\u2019s like a little girls\u2019 trip.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Yeah, it is. It\u2019s essentially a weekly vacation. Are you on offense in any part of your life where you\u2019re like, I\u2019m really good at this and I\u2019m really confident?<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:55]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0My driving.<\/p>\n<p>[01:04:57]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, that\u2019s not an answer I expected. Okay. Tell me about that.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:01]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I have been in zero crashes, and I live in the worst freeways of America.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:08]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:09]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Fair enough.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:10]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0So you\u2019re a very good driver. You feel confident. You know what\u2019s going on. You can read the road ahead of you. You have a sixth sense almost, and you\u2019re very alert. Okay, great. That feeling, what does that feel like? Are you sitting in your car like, I don\u2019t know. Who\u2019s going to their turn lane?<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:28]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No? What are you doing instead? Tell it to me.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:31]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No, I hate people who break the lines. I just straight, and if I need to exit, I know that it\u2019s there. If I pass it, I don\u2019t zoom through it. I just take the next exit and turn around and go.<\/p>\n<p>[01:05:45]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Wow. So what you\u2019re telling me is you plan ahead. If you need to take an exit, you\u2019re planning ahead. If you miss an exit for whatever reason, you\u2019re not panicking. You\u2019re simply adapting to what life threw at you and you\u2019re calmly making your way back to where you need to go.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:00]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:01]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay. That sounds incredible. This is actually a fantastic example. What would it feel like to do that exact same thing with money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:10]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I\u2019ll feel great. I\u2019ll feel amazing.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:12]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:12]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I would feel accomplished.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0How would you do it? Tell me what you do. I\u2019m planning ahead to take the on-ramp in two miles. What is the equivalent for money?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:22]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0I would be like, not savings, and having the end in mind, but in a positive way.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:29]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And if something goes wrong with your finances, what do you do? Do you panic and just give up?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:33]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0No, continue. Start from scratch.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:37]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Uh-huh.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:37]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0And go over again.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:39]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Great.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:39]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Try to not do the same mistakes as previously done.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:43]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Very nice. Love it. Beautiful. Bring that driving energy to what we\u2019re talking about. Because you can do that driving, that means you can do it with money. All right?<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:51]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:51]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0All right.<\/p>\n<p>[01:06:52]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0Doing it together, I think. I think we need to feed of each other\u2019s energy. Let\u2019s do it together. This is the goal. This is what we do it for.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0What can money do for you now?<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:10]\u00a0<strong>Kevin:<\/strong>\u00a0If done right, a rich life.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:14]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0\u00a0April\u2019s example of driving was so great. One of my favorite things to do on this podcast is to help people make the connection between an area they\u2019re good at and money, which they\u2019re typically not. Now, I know a lot of us grew up without any guidance about money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:28]\u00a0Some of us grew up with negative guidance about money, unhealthy role models. The thing about money is that there are so many ways to learn about it. Look, there\u2019s books. You can get\u00a0them\u00a0for free at a public library. There\u2019s podcasts. There\u2019s YouTube. There\u2019s so many places to start. And so while I understand that there\u2019s a lot of things against us, even structurally so, I also\u00a0want to\u00a0encourage you to take some personal agency.<\/p>\n<p>[01:07:56]\u00a0You can learn how to be good at money, and that\u2019s really what\u2019s going on here. It\u2019s not as much about the numbers. There\u2019s two dynamics that I saw. First of all, April is an avoider, a deep avoider. She\u2019s never had to face money. She\u2019s never had any consequences for it, so why would she change?<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:14]\u00a0Number two is that in a relationship when one partner starts to make a big life change, you\u2019ll often see a huge wedge being driven between the partners. Now, this frequently happens with weight loss or fitness. This frequently happens with money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:08:29]\u00a0One partner will finally decide, I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0take control of money.\u00a0Let\u2019s do this. And the other partner\u2019s like, why? We\u2019ve been fine for the last 12 years. What\u2019s the problem? And as one partner becomes more and more advanced with money, they start to understand the consequences of not taking action and all the costs of not doing anything for the last 12 years, the other one\u2019s like, why are you being like this?\u00a0Why are you getting on my case? Things were good before you read this stupid book called I Will Teach You To Be Rich. The point is, if you make a change, you have to be very sensitive about how to encourage your partner to come along, and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn\u2019t work. Let\u2019s check out their follow-ups.\u00a0First, Kevin,<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:10]\u00a0Kevin:\u00a0What was surprising to me, the first thing was more of a shock when I heard April say that she felt that we were poor. I did not know anything about that. The second thing that was surprising to me is how quickly you were able to uncover the different dynamics at play with us.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:29]\u00a0It hasn\u2019t been an easy couple of days, but I know we will make it through. Another thing that was surprising to me is basically the lack of engagement with money from April, and that if we want to change, we\u2019re going to have to act much more as a team.<\/p>\n<p>[01:09:50]\u00a0The first thing I learned is that change is extremely hard, extremely hard, especially when it\u2019s so deeply rooted into childhood behaviors, thing that we\u2019ve been doing for the past 20 years, and it\u2019s going to require a lot of support, a lot of efforts to change those behaviors.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:07]\u00a0The second thing that I learned is that if we don\u2019t change right now, our kids are already 10 and 7, the same behaviors, the same patterns are going to be passed on to them and that\u2019s not really what we want. We are going to create our own money rules that are going to work for us, and we\u2019re probably going to send you an update 2.0 in a month or two to see how things are going.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:31]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0And now April\u2019s\u00a0follow-up.<\/p>\n<p>[01:10:34]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0For me, what surprised me the most was the fact that I\u2019m still doing the same things that I was doing with my mom 30 years later and that has a negative impact on me and on my family. I didn\u2019t even think about it, but about having negativity about money if it didn\u2019t come to shopping, and that\u2019s something I guess growing up just the instant gratification with the money and then not thinking about anything else or having my dad with the, how much did this cost?<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:10]\u00a0What I am committed to change is being more proactive when it comes to paying for the credit cards. So that\u2019s something. And a step that we took this month where I paid off all the credit cards. I checked the bank statement, so I think it\u2019s being more proactive with paying, and then also with how I\u2019m spending the money.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:35]\u00a0So another thing that I\u2019m committed to change is instead of carrying the cards with me, it\u2019s better to have cash. That way I\u2019m not so tempted to swipe it and call it a day. So it\u2019s something that I\u2019m committed to doing, but thank you for everything.<\/p>\n<p>[01:11:52]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Okay, I appreciate their follow-ups, but I have to tell you, I wasn\u2019t really satisfied with what they said. I wasn\u2019t sure what they were actually going to do. So we sat on this episode for a month, and I asked my team to reach back out to Kevin in April to get another follow-up because a month later, I wanted to see what changes they had made.\u00a0Now, they sent me about a one-page letter. I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0read off some of the things that they told me.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:18]\u00a0Kevin said, \u201cI changed jobs with a very minor pay cut, but on the flip side, I\u2019m eligible for a 20k performance bonus, which I\u2019ll work hard to achieve. April took on additional sessions, which will give us about $200 extra per month.\u201d Then they sent me a follow-up on their commitments. I\u2019m\u00a0going to\u00a0read you some of what they wrote to me.<\/p>\n<p>[01:12:39]\u00a0\u201cWe decided not to meal prep because it is just plain boring, but our monthly grocery bill is going to stay right at the\u00a01k mark. April is really working hard on her shopping habits and has not bought any unnecessary clothing since our call. April is in charge of credit card statements and payments to make sure she stays on track.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:05]\u00a0\u201cWe have updated our CSP and will monitor it at least twice a year. We agreed that having a fancy vacation this year was not sustainable and we are now saving towards our next vacation where we\u2019re\u00a0going to\u00a0take the kids and go train hopping around Europe in 2025. Change is still really hard and we know that we will face challenges this year, but we are committed to being better together for our future.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:33]\u00a0Okay, Kevin and April, thank you for the update.\u00a0I appreciate it, and I am happy to hear that you are making some changes. What I hear in this a month later is a lot of things that they will do. We will monitor our CSP twice a year. We will try to achieve this bonus. April is really working hard on her shopping habits.<\/p>\n<p>[01:13:55]\u00a0But what I didn\u2019t hear were specific things that you have already done.\u00a0And after a conversation with me, that first month is the most fertile time where you are able to make huge changes and put systems in place. By the way, I also didn\u2019t hear anything about April shopping with your mom. That was a huge part of our conversation, and it\u2019s underneath so much of the dynamic of what\u2019s going on here.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:20]\u00a0So I do appreciate the follow up. I\u2019m not hearing a lot of specifics, and for everybody watching and listening, what makes real change happen is a strong, powerful vision, a reason why, and then specifics, vivid specifics and systems that help you make real changes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:42]\u00a0Just saying, we will do this. We\u2019re talking about commitments. It\u2019s usually not\u00a0going to\u00a0be the key that changes things.\u00a0Thanks again, Kevin and April. I wish the best for you. Please keep me updated. All right. Does this dog\u00a0want to\u00a0be in Hollywood as well? Come on, get up here little dog.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:57]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[01:14:58]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0No, dog. What kind of dog is that?<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:01]\u00a0<strong>April:<\/strong>\u00a0A [Inaudible] that I got from one of my students.<\/p>\n<p>[01:15:04]\u00a0<strong>Ramit:<\/strong>\u00a0Oh, wow. All right. Hi, Oreo. I hope America sees that I can have a nice conversation with a dog. And all my jokes about pets, you know I love these beautiful creatures.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>April and Kevin are in their mid thirties with two kids. They\u2019ve been married for twelve years and Kevin recently came across a good book on finance\u2014one which empowered him to learn more about their finances. What he found shocked him, and has driven deep cracks in their marriage. This episode is brought to you [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-118930","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Nasrin","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118930","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=118930"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/118930\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=118930"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=118930"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}