{"id":119065,"date":"2022-06-21T15:25:26","date_gmt":"2022-06-21T19:25:26","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=119065"},"modified":"2025-03-28T15:38:11","modified_gmt":"2025-03-28T19:38:11","slug":"048-kara-sean","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/048-kara-sean\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 48. \u201cMy husband needs a better job, but he hates the idea of earning more\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/50mK1j63wZNMXF76cW0gr2?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Kara and Sean make $150k annually, with $100k of that coming from Kara\u2019s salary in healthcare. They have a baby daughter, and Kara would like to take a step back in her career in order to spend more time with her. The problem is, Sean\u2019s happily (and hopelessly) stuck in a dead-end job.<\/p>\n<p>What do you do when one partner is passive when it comes to money? It\u2019s so easy to make things personal, to escalate and unravel, but I steer this conversation to the numbers\u2014where it\u2019s illustrated, plain as day, what Sean needs to do.<\/p>\n<p>But will he see it? And if he does, will he actually make any changes? Let\u2019s see if I can get Sean to start dreaming bigger.<\/p>\n<h2>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2><strong>Transcript<\/strong><\/h2>\n<p><u><a href=\"https:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1RacNzZErJ6YNLb_8vgTDbsepk6pjuJAL\/view?usp=sharing\">Download the full transcript PDF<\/a><\/u><\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:00:00]\u00a0 He just gave up and stopped believing in himself. I have to be the one to always dream and keep that going.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:00:09]\u00a0 I am on board with trying to make her happy as much as I possibly can. And admittedly, there are some times where I can probably take turns being leaders on certain decisions. But a lot of people I ran into use money as a weapon. And I didn\u2019t love that.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:00:25]\u00a0 I\u2019m a nurse, and I work full time. I feel like I\u2019m at the point where I am making the most money. And then it\u2019s just a really difficult profession. So I don\u2019t burn out. I want to cut back on hours. And usually, people\u2019s partners will continue to rise. And then they have a plan. And so I guess it would be nice if I could drop a little bit and have some pressure taken off and have him try and plan to move up or make changes. But I feel like he\u2019s stuck unless he makes a career change, or, I don\u2019t know. I get frustrated. That\u2019s a lot of pressure on me for the rest of our marriage. I\u2019ve tried to tell you that. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:01:19]\u00a0 Kara and Sean make $150,000 together. She makes $100,000 and he makes 50,000. They\u2019ve been married for five years. They\u2019re new parents, and they are frustrated with money. Well, Kara she\u2019s frustrated that Sean has been stuck at a job for the past five years with no path to a promotion. And when I asked Sean about it, he just sounds apathetic. He\u2019s passive. And he doesn\u2019t take ownership of his career. In fact, when Kara tries to talk to him about it, he avoids it.<\/p>\n<p>Honestly, this was a frustrating episode for me. I don\u2019t mind people who are in financial trouble. And I know that very few of us learn this stuff as we were growing up. But the one thing I can\u2019t take is being passive with your life. And if you come on my show to talk to me, I expect you to have questions. I expect you to take ownership. So today at one point, I actually lost it with both of them. I really want to help Kara and\u00a0 Sean, but I can\u2019t do it for them. I want you to listen in to hear what happens. And of course, there will be a follow up at the end.<\/p>\n<p>By the way, when we start talking about their numbers, you\u2019re going to hear where their income is going. Before they came on the show, I had them fill out a conscious spending plan. You can get a copy of that conscious spending plan to fill out yourself at iwt.com\/episode48. I\u2019m Ramit Sethi. And this is I Will Teach You To Be Rich.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:03:02]\u00a0 Kara, what is the time in the last month or two where you did not feel on the same financial page as Sean?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:03:11]\u00a0 This week, actually. So we just bought a house in March. And we finally moved all our stuff over. And we have a little bit of extra space. And our front entry room is probably the best part of the house. The rest of the house need some work. So I want to make it look really nice. And I don\u2019t expect to go to West Elm and buy a brand new couch, but what I will do is look on Facebook marketplace. And so I found one that is in good condition that will look perfect in our living room. It usually retails for $1,400. And so I talked the person down to 700. And Sean was like, wow, that\u2019s a lot of money for a couch.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:04:06]\u00a0 Sean, when you heard Kara suggesting getting a $700 couch, what was the first thing you said to her?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:04:11]\u00a0 Probably like, \u201cDo we need that right this minute?\u201d I think the biggest difference between us is not, though we both agree we want a couch, for Kara, the excitement is all of the detail that she just gave you about the couch, about how much she saved, about how it\u2019s a bargain, about how she thinks it\u2019ll save us money in the long term. And I\u2019m on board for all of that. I just hear, oh, it\u2019s $700. And we still have several other, in my opinion, more important things to pay for at this exact moment.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:04:44]\u00a0 How do you both usually make a decision like this? What\u2019s the pattern that emerges?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:04:51]\u00a0 Usually I\u2019m the one who finds it and then I pitch it to him. And Sean usually actually goes with it. I\u2019m mostly the one doing the research and whatnot.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:05:04]\u00a0 If we had to name these two characters, what would you name them?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:05:07]\u00a0 Kara\u2019s the spender, the one who is more high maintenance and wants nicer things. And Sean\u2019s the laid-back guy who can roll with anything but well, I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:05:29]\u00a0 Interesting choice of words. Sean, what would you say if you\u2019re going to name the two characters involved?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:05:36]\u00a0 Kara is definitely the one that wants to spend. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:05:39]\u00a0 Kara\u2019s the spender and what are you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:05:42]\u00a0 The saver, I guess or the skimpy one.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:05:47]\u00a0 You don\u2019t really save though.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:05:51]\u00a0 What does he do?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:05:52]\u00a0 Sir, status quo I guess is more me.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:05:59]\u00a0 Your check pretty much goes to our mortgage and you buy coffee and beer, and that\u2019s about it. And then I figure out the rest of it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:06:10]\u00a0 Okay, hold on a second. We\u2019re going to get to that. But I want to stick to this. So if Kara is the spender, then what are you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:06:15]\u00a0 I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m not the final decision. I\u2019m the safety valve, I guess. Mostly we\u2019re going to agree. Mostly her ideas are good. But every once in a while, there\u2019s one that we don\u2019t need to pursue.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:06:33]\u00a0 Have you ever thought about the roles that you and your partner play when it comes to money decisions? I hear this phrase a lot, for example, \u201cI make day-to-day money decisions, but my husband makes the big decisions.\u201d Or \u201cI\u2019m the spender. She\u2019s the saver.\u201d Or \u201cWe\u2019re both just pretty laid back.\u201d By the way, when people say this, they never actually are. Each of these has its own issues.<\/p>\n<p>For example, if one person makes the big money decisions, what happens when that person dies? Will the other partner know how to handle the complexity of money? And I want you to think about this. What roles in your relationship did you just passively accept? Which roles mirror the roles your parents played? And even what would it look like if you reversed those roles? Have this discussion with your partner? And when you do, here\u2019s the suggestion. Name the roles. Maybe you are the spender, the saver, the cautionary person, the warrior, whatever it is, name that. Be vivid. And then ask yourself, if we could change those roles, what would they be?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:07:49]\u00a0 Did you guys get that couch?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:07:52]\u00a0 I\u2019m still messaging with the girl.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:07:54]\u00a0 Okay, so that\u2019s a no. So can I just play this out again? All right, let\u2019s see if this sounds right. Kara comes up. She\u2019s like, \u201cWe should get this thing and it has all these cool features. I want us to spend $700.\u201d Kara is the spender as you put it. Do we agree?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:08:12]\u00a0 Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:08:12]\u00a0 And then Sean\u2019s reaction is, \u201cI don\u2019t know about that. What about the plumbing?\u201d How would you describe that?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:08:24]\u00a0 Palmer?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:08:25]\u00a0 Yes, keep going.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:08:28]\u00a0 Practical.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:08:30]\u00a0 Don\u2019t give yourself undue credit. That\u2019s not being practical.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:08:33]\u00a0 Fair enough.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:08:34]\u00a0 Listen to my tone, \u201cEeeh, I don\u2019t know.\u201d You didn\u2019t offer an alternative, did you? You didn\u2019t say, \u201cWell, you know what? That\u2019s an interesting couch. But I really think that I\u2019m going to look into three other couches and find something at 50% off of that price.\u201d You didn\u2019t do that? Did you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:08:48]\u00a0 Definitely not, no.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:08:49]\u00a0 Yeah. So you\u2019re not practical. And it\u2019s not that. What is it? Kara, feel free to chime in here.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:08:56]\u00a0 He\u2019s indecisive.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:08:58]\u00a0 I think it\u2019s just a wet blanket. You guys know what that is?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:09:03]\u00a0 Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:09:04]\u00a0 Just eeeeh, some eyo type shit. Aghhh. I haven\u2019t watched that eyo stuff in a long time. But I imagine that sound eyo makes. I don\u2019t mind if you disagree on the couch. I don\u2019t mind that at all. We haven\u2019t even looked at your numbers to see if you can afford it.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:09:22]\u00a0 Notice how patterns that appear in money also appear in other parts of relationships. I\u2019ve noticed that a lot of people try to compartmentalize their feelings about money by saying oh, well, that\u2019s just my finances. I just feel nervous around my finances. But the way you treat money often seeps into other areas of your life. And this is why changing the way you treat money can be really hard, because it often cuts to the very core of who you are, and how you look at the world. Kara, go ahead. Looks like you just had an idea.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:09:59]\u00a0 I feel like the leader, the one who creates the dreams. And then he just goes with it and has no input.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:10:13]<\/p>\n<p>Describe that in a word.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:10:19]\u00a0 Careless?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:10:21]\u00a0 Careless, okay. What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:10:25]\u00a0 For you or for me?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:10:33]\u00a0 It doesn\u2019t really matter to you.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:10:37]\u00a0 Is that fair?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:10:39]\u00a0 That nothing matters to me? No, no, that\u2019s not fair.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:10:44]\u00a0 What would you say instead? If she\u2019s the leader, what would you describe yourself as?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:10:52]\u00a0 I\u2019m definitely more of a one day to one week at a time kind of person. Just manage one week\u2019s of worth of routine or challenges at a time. Happy go-lucky is probably too generous, but content to live out one week at a time. And if there are dreams that Kara has, let\u2019s see if we can make them happen as long as they make sense with everything else we get going on. But definitely I am not good at long term things. That is a growth area for me, trying to get better at long term planning, which is something we talk about whether it\u2019s finances or anything else.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:11:32]\u00a0 Okay. That\u2019s perceptive. Do you know why I just spent so much time on this?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:11:41]\u00a0 Why?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:11:42]\u00a0 Because it\u2019s not about the couch. I bet you, we could come up with five other examples where this exact same dynamic played out.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:11:50]\u00a0 I think that\u2019s fair for some of our further in the past interactions. I think the recent vacation trip we took that you planned, I was excited for that. You found great deals. We jumped all over it. We made it happen. That was still definitely you leading, but it was less wet blankety.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:12:11]\u00a0 Yeah, but I don\u2019t think it would have happened if I didn\u2019t do it. That\u2019s the thing. I was the one who pitched it. We\u2019re so connected on those trips. And then we come home and you go back to work, and you get in the zone. And I feel like our relationship goes off to the side. I have to be the one to always dream and keep that going. And I guess that\u2019s a lot of pressure on me for the rest of our marriage. So it would be nice, a few thoughts and dreams for our family would make me feel like desired and special. I\u2019ve tried to tell you that.<\/p>\n<p>I was actually frustrated. Say, if we were supposed to go to a wedding for my friend, she\u2019s unfortunately sick, it has to be canceled, we had a babysitter and everything lined up. So Sean calls me and he\u2019s like, oh, do you want to go on a date? And inside I\u2019m like, oh my gosh, he\u2019s doing it. He\u2019s planning something for us. And he\u2019s like, I want to go see Dr. Strange too. And I was like, okay, that\u2019s definitely more of a him thing, but I like marvel, too. But he\u2019s like, \u201cWell, then we can make it home for bedtime.\u201d And inside I got really upset. That\u2019s all for him. We\u2019re not even connecting when we go to the movie. And I\u2019m really easy to please. I love most restaurants and stuff. So I feel like it\u2019s not that hard to step up.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:13:56]\u00a0 It must be frustrating.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:13:58]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:14:00]\u00a0 I\u2019m having a little fun with them. But what I\u2019m really trying to do is shake them out of their patterns. They\u2019ve never even named their roles. They\u2019ve never even thought about them actually. And when they do, you notice that they come up with the same predictable answers that almost everybody else does. \u201cI\u2019m practical.\u201d \u201cNo, actually you\u2019re not practical. If you were practical, you wouldn\u2019t be talking to me.\u201d So what I\u2019m doing here is I\u2019m intentionally painting an exaggerating picture with this idea of eyo and his weird dying sound also that it sticks in their head. And hopefully, it\u2019s going to get them, especially Sean, thinking.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:14:40]\u00a0 I am on board with trying to make Kara happy as much as I possibly can. And admittedly there are some times where I can probably step into more of take turns being leaders on certain decisions.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:15:03]\u00a0 But why here? Why not a couples\u2019 therapist? Why not a group coaching? Why this? We\u2019re talking about money. The name of the podcast is I Will Teach You To Be Rich. Why this?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:15:14]\u00a0 We\u2019re trying to do a lot better with our investments, with setting our daughter up for future success. Once we had a kid, I think that changed both of our perspectives a lot on it\u2019s not just, can we have fun this month? Can we stop renting a house? Can you buy a house instead? And now it\u2019s okay, well, we need to make sure we can send her to college, if at all possible, if that\u2019s what she wants to do.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:15:41]\u00a0 How old is your daughter?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:15:43]\u00a0 10 months.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:15:44]\u00a0 Did you catch that? That deep invisible script? \u201cWe had a kid. So now we have to start thinking about buying a house and paying for her college and not having fun anymore.\u201d No wonder people hate money. It just sounds like such a downer.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:16:01]\u00a0 You\u2019ve really helped me identify what my rich life would be. And I tried to have these conversations with Sean. And I asked him if he couldn\u2019t come up with anything other than like, oh, well, I really like what I do for my job. But I was like, your rich life, you\u2019re not with your family a lot. I\u2019m like, what\u2019s going on?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:16:26]\u00a0 And I can see that you\u2019re wiping away tears?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:16:30]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:16:33]\u00a0 Did you expect this call to be that emotional?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:16:36]\u00a0 No.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:16:38]\u00a0 It\u2019s okay that it is. It\u2019s totally normal.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:16:44]\u00a0 Here\u2019s what I think is going on so far. Kara is well versed in the philosophy of I Will Teach You To Be Rich. She uses phrases like \u201crich life.\u201d And she\u2019s the one, of course, who asked to come on this podcast. I think she realizes that money is just a symptom of larger problems. So as they\u2019re talking about that frustrating date night, seems like she realizes the enormity of the challenge they\u2019re facing.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s not really a simple budget change that they need here. What\u2019s interesting to me is that people really cling to the idea of numbers. People hate numbers. And they usually don\u2019t know their numbers. But funny enough, they believe the magical solution to their financial problems is found somewhere in the numbers, if somebody like me would just show them how to calculate things right. I\u2019m going to start with their finances now. But you and I both know the answer probably isn\u2019t in the numbers. It\u2019s in the two of them.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:17:48]\u00a0 What is your household income combined?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:17:53]\u00a0 About 150,000.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:17:55]\u00a0 Yeah, around there.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:17:56]\u00a0 And how do you feel about the money that you make?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:18:00]\u00a0 Pretty good. I mean, in this market we are probably pretty average.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:18:10]\u00a0 So you feel pretty good. Okay, you don\u2019t worry about money?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:18:14]\u00a0 I do, actually. I get frustrated. I\u2019m a nurse and I work full time. I feel like I\u2019m at the point where I am making the most money. And then it\u2019s just a really difficult profession. So I don\u2019t burn out. I want to cut back on hours. And usually, normally, partners will continue to rise, and then they have a plan. And so I guess it would be nice if I could drop a little bit and have some pressure taken off and have him try and plan to move off or make changes, but I feel like he\u2019s stuck unless he makes a career change.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:19:05]\u00a0 What\u2019s the breakdown in incomes? Out of 150 who makes what?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:19:10]\u00a0 I make about $100,000. And he makes 50.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:19:15]\u00a0 A little over 50.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:19:17]\u00a0 Okay, great. Sean, how do you feel about your financial situation?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:19:28]\u00a0 Now that we have a mortgage kicking in, a little less comfortable. But for the most part, it\u2019s never bothered me that Kara was a bigger earner than I was. I don\u2019t get any masculine pride out of that or or not. With my particular role, eight, nine years that I\u2019ve been doing it, I am getting to a burnout point as well like Kara described. And so I have quietly applied for other positions pretty much annually, sometimes semi-annually, depending on what comes up, and I just haven\u2019t gotten anything else.<\/p>\n<p>So those are all applications to similar roles, just in different places that would pay a little bit more. So she\u2019s right, short of total career shift. Unless some of those jobs start calling me back, I don\u2019t have a huge potential for salary increase, so butting up against the glass ceiling. That is actually what I thought we might talk about a little bit today is just like, okay, well, I knew she was going to tell me I need to change jobs and get my shit together and move on.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:20:46]\u00a0 But if I told you that, would it actually mean anything to you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:20:50]\u00a0 I think so, yeah, because it means something to me when Kara says it too. I have been looking for new roles. I have applied to larger companies for similar positions, which even if it\u2019s a lateral move, it\u2019s still more salary.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:21:08]\u00a0 Kara, you just rolled your eyes.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:21:09]\u00a0 I\u2019m the one who is looking for these jobs for him, which makes me sound like a crazy person, like a crazy wife. But I\u2019m just so desperate to know that there\u2019s something more waiting for us and that I can finally relax.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:21:31]\u00a0 Sean. Sean, you\u2019re shaking your head there.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:21:34]\u00a0 I don\u2019t agree with that totally. She has been great about being proactive and sharing things that she finds on little Glassdoor, recommendations or whatever. But I have my own alerts set up and I apply for those too. It\u2019s just, I think, probably time for me to decide whether I want to commit to shifting careers entirely, or\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:21:59]\u00a0 Yeah, but I feel like I have to be the force to do it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:22:04]\u00a0 Because if you don\u2019t, then what happens?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:22:06]\u00a0 We\u2019re stagnant. We\u2019re stuck. There\u2019s no moving upward. He was making the federal minimum, but he was working 60 hours for the small university. And they didn\u2019t even give him a 401k. And we were like, 24, 25 and I was like, \u201cBabe, that\u2019s kind of important.\u201d He\u2019s like, \u201cWell, but my boss says that we can go to his cabin in Big Bear.\u201d And I\u2019m like\u2013<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:22:36]\u00a0 Let\u2019s talk about that 401k cabin example. I can understand the frustration of Kara. She goes, \u201cHey, that\u2019s important.\u201d He responds with the cabin example, which is really code for, \u201cI don\u2019t want to think about that right now because deep down I know you\u2019re probably right. And it makes me feel embarrassed not to know this.\u201d Now, the wrong way to handle this is to point a finger and say, \u201cHey, a 401k is really important, seriously.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I find that if you have to say the word seriously, you\u2019ve already lost. And this is where a rich life vision can be very helpful. Instead of starting by talking about what the other person should do, you start by designing a vision of your rich lives together, you get crystal clear on it, you get excited about it, then, and only then do you start using the puzzle pieces of your money to match up with your rich life vision.<\/p>\n<p>Years later, you can look back and laugh about that 401k conversation. And you can smile about the conversations you had that were worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, and you\u2019ll never have to fight over a $700 couch again. This is the crux of how you use money to create a rich life. I\u2019ll be talking more about this in my upcoming programs. So be sure that you\u2019re following me on social media and my newsletter. Now back to Sean, I wanted to know where his apathy of money comes from. He tells me that he grew up poor in the rural Midwest, and then he moved to Southern California at the age of 10.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:24:24]\u00a0 What things surprised you about money culture in Southern California versus the Midwest?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:24:32]\u00a0 It\u2019s a lot more talked about. It\u2019s way more in your face. It\u2019s status symbol.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:24:38]\u00a0 Like what?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:24:39]\u00a0 I mean, growing up, for my first decade and a half it didn\u2019t really matter. As long as you\u2019re happy and content with what you got, no one\u2019s really comparing too much. But you get to SoCal at that time, maybe it\u2019s just the kids, maybe it is a coastal elitism thing, but I guess that at the time, I did not see a way to catch up. And rather than feel sad or depressed about that, I just decided I\u2019m not going to be disappointed, but I also I\u2019m going to just lower my expectations for now.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:25:11]\u00a0 Thank you for that. Another way that I would look at it is, \u201cI knew that I was never going to be able to catch up. So I opted out of the game altogether.\u201d Would that be fair?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:25:28]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:25:30]\u00a0 Kara, what do you think about this?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:25:33]\u00a0 I feel like he just gave up and stopped believing in himself. He thinks of himself less than other people.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:25:44]\u00a0 In social psychology, there\u2019s a concept called cognitive dissonance. If you hold to different ideas, like, \u201cI\u2019m a hard worker, but I can\u2019t ever catch up to these rich Southern California kids,\u201d you have to find a way to reduce the dissonance. You could double down and work hard, studying harder to get into college with the belief that your hard work will eventually enable you to make more. Or you could opt out of the game altogether and say, \u201cI can never catch up. And I don\u2019t want to play that game anyway.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>To make that easier to swallow, you can add on a nice cherry on top saying something like, \u201cThose people who drive nice cars are actually deeply unhappy inside anyway.\u201d Once Sean realized he would never be able to catch up to the Southern California kids with their fancy cars and designer clothes, he decided to just opt out of the game altogether. And instead, he focused on sports. It\u2019s not surprising then what he chose to do for a living later in life. Listen, as he describes the field of work that he chose.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:26:56]\u00a0 And what do we know about the field that you chose to work in, this college athletics field? What do we know about this field as it relates to money?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:27:07]\u00a0 People that know the right people are the best at networking, even if they\u2019re not the best at the job, they advance and break through the glass ceiling. And everyone else, there\u2019s plenty other people that are willing to do the job. It\u2019s the opinion of higher ups, it seems like. So there\u2019s a steady workforce of people from behind who are happy to take my job if I burn out or opt out. So you eat shit for as long as you can and hope that you meet the right people and climb the ladder a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>And I guess part of it for me is I\u2019ve done that for almost a decade. I know it\u2019s a sunk cost fallacy in some ways, like I\u2019ve put in all this time. I don\u2019t want to give up now, but I really like what I do. It feels rewarding. And I feel like I\u2019ve been in it long enough that I should hopefully be getting a couple of rungs up on the ladder soon enough.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:28:01]\u00a0 Okay. And have you got promoted in the last couple of years?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:28:07]\u00a0 My specific position, there\u2019s not really a promotion. You\u2019re a director, but there\u2019s no director of the directors. You get your admin status and you\u2019re there.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:28:21]\u00a0 It seems to me that there\u2019s a clear connection between your moving to California and you\u2019re choosing this job. Do you see a connection? Kara, you were nodding. Very quickly, go ahead. Tell me.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:28:38]\u00a0 Yeah, I think it parallels really well. You\u2019re talking about your profession a similar way like, oh, only the top, top people like the lucky people make it to the top. And then I just hang out here and hope, but it\u2019s like, what are you actually\u2013 I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:28:59]\u00a0 Let me stop you right there because you\u2019re about to not do yourself any favors, the route you\u2019re going down.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:29:06]\u00a0 Kara was about to start re-litigating her problems with Sean and I just don\u2019t want it. I don\u2019t need it. This doesn\u2019t mean Kara\u2019s a bad person. It\u2019s just a groove she\u2019s gotten in when she talks about Sean and his career. But this is not the time. Sean is being super open. So I want to encourage him, and I want to hear more.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:29:26]\u00a0 The connection that I see is when you moved to California, you felt you could not catch up as you put it, and you chose a safe industry where you had some personal passion, yes, but you wouldn\u2019t have to compete and it\u2019s safe. You\u2019re probably not going to be fired from your job, I\u2019m guessing. It\u2019s safe. It\u2019s fine. It may not have the highest potential for advancement, but you like it and it\u2019s a nice, good job. Do you care about making more money?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:30:06]\u00a0 In the sense that it will give Kara a peace of mind and provide for our family and long term, yes. In the sense that it gives me any extra happy feeling at the end of the day with a certain number attached to my name, no. I care more about providing for others than I do about like, I have this next to my name at the pay stub.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:30:26]\u00a0 So you said, if it makes Kara happy, but Kara told us point blank, she wants you to advance and she\u2019s frustrated that you\u2019ve been at this job. So you\u2019re not making her happy by staying at this job.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:30:43]\u00a0 Yes, we\u2019ve definitely had that conversation.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:30:46]\u00a0 So then make the connection for me, because you said, \u201cI don\u2019t care about it for myself. I don\u2019t care about the status. But I want to provide and I\u2019ll do if it makes Kara happy.\u201d But Kara does not feel provided for and she\u2019s not happy.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:30:59]\u00a0 I mean, a lot of implied questions in the end of that sentence for you.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:31:10]\u00a0 Talk to me. Talk to me. Honestly, I\u2019m not here to tell you you\u2019re right or wrong. I just want to understand what\u2019s going on.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:31:16]\u00a0 Fair enough. Kara is currently not as happy as she could be with this role. I\u2019ve decided to make peace with being in it while I am still applying for other things. And the fact that I do get some emotional satisfaction or personal satisfaction from the kind of work that it is probably does cut down on the urgency a little bit as much as anything else.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:31:45]\u00a0 So you like the job, you\u2019re well respected, it\u2019s a good job for you, right?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:31:50]\u00a0 Yeah, just the paycheck isn\u2019t and the return on hours put in.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:31:56]\u00a0 What is the return on hours if you break it out? Hold on. Before you go on, I just want to describe what just happened. I said, what is the return on hours, and you look to the side and you laughed. So I\u2019m very much looking forward to what you\u2019re about to tell me.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:32:13]\u00a0 I had a employee complain to me, student worker, they make minimum wage in the state that we live. And they were complaining jokingly that they had put in long hours over the weekend. We had a couple of things we had going on. And they\u2019re like, \u201cI deserve a raise after this. I was like, buddy, you divide my actual salary by the hours I put in, you still make more than I do.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:32:36]\u00a0 So you make less than minimum wage.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:32:39]\u00a0 If you do salary divided by the actual hours the job requires, yeah, probably.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:32:44]\u00a0 And how do you feel about that?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:32:45]\u00a0 Not thrilled. I\u2019ve been trying to. I actually have a meeting set up with my current supervisor about an application I have out just to see if even if I\u2019m not picked for the job, can I use this as leverage to get a little bit more where I\u2019m currently at?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:33:03]\u00a0 Let\u2019s say it goes well, how much would you go from? You\u2019re making roughly 50k. How much do you think that you might get an increase of?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:33:11]\u00a0 I think realistically, the most I could probably expect for an annual bump would probably be 10. So 50 to 60.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:33:17]\u00a0 Okay, that\u2019s not bad.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:33:21]\u00a0 It\u2019s not nothing.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:33:24]\u00a0 Kara is itching to say something here. Kara, go ahead.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:33:27]\u00a0 She wants more.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:33:31]\u00a0 Yeah, I find a crystal ball. I just know that or feel I don\u2019t want to drop where we\u2019re at. And so I won\u2019t cut my hours back, and I\u2019ll pick up overtime and all these things, so make sure the three of us have this good life.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:33:52]\u00a0 I think in some ways it\u2019s just because I\u2019m trying to juggle a bunch of other things that make our family happy and comfortable. There are other jobs that I see posted around the country that would be better opportunities for our family, but the place that we currently live, aside from my paycheck and my take home, is a really happy compromise of family around in the area, a climate that we enjoy, friends that we can lean on, a certain amount of free childcare that we can expect depending on who we\u2019re asking.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:34:28]\u00a0 So that\u2019s a very logical answer.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:34:31]\u00a0 There\u2019s other places I could take us to, but then Kara\u2019s standard of treatment as a nurse might change. Where we are at, nursing is a very well respected profession and it\u2019s well compensated. We could go somewhere where I become very well respected and well compensated and then really we just flip and now we\u2019re not your family and now we\u2019re not your friends, and we\u2019re not happier that way either. I think it\u2019s just that we\u2019ve traded roles at that point. So anytime there\u2019s anything that would even be like a two-hour commute, if it\u2019s a bump for me, I apply for it. But our options feel limited by trying to balance as much of that was possible.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:35:20]\u00a0 All of that was just words. Just conjecture. It sounded logical. But I think, really, it was just fear disguised as thoughtful concern. Here\u2019s my question for you. How do you know?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:35:37]\u00a0 That I\u2019m right?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:35:38]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:35:39]\u00a0 I don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:35:39]\u00a0 Well, it seems pretty important to me. You guys decided to come on this podcast and share everything. It seems like it would be a pretty interesting answer to find the answer too. Don\u2019t you think?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:35:50]\u00a0 Yes, it would.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:35:52] \u00a0 I mean, you came up with this long pre rehearsed answer, well, we got to childcare and the well respected nurse and da, da, da and go, maybe. Or maybe you\u2019re just bullshitting yourself. How do you know you can\u2019t get a different job? How do you know you can\u2019t find a remote job? How do you know you can\u2019t move? How do you know? Sean, how do you know?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:36:13]\u00a0 I don\u2019t know that we can\u2019t move. I just know that Kara would prefer not to. I feel like I only have so many moves that could make on the chess board that would end with everyone feeling successful and happy and satisfied. I know I\u2019m mixing metaphors here. But I\u2019m trying to thread the needle and like, okay, well, you bingo and now everyone wins.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:36:29]\u00a0 And how do you think that she\u2019s perceiving your internal chess game? Does she see you making all these moves in your head?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:36:39]\u00a0 I am not a great sharer.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:36:43]\u00a0 I\u2019m shocked. Yeah, I\u2019m shocked. Can I just tell you what she thinks and then I\u2019ll just confirm if I\u2019m right? She doesn\u2019t see you making any movement at all. Sometimes horrible chess players\u2013 I\u2019m getting on my mixed metaphor now because you made me talk about chess. And it doesn\u2019t even make sense, but I\u2019m going with it. Sometimes chess players can play themselves into a circle. All right, well, I could do this. But then I can\u2019t do that. And if I did that, then she\u2019d be mad, and then this and then no child care. I\u2019m just going to do exactly what I\u2019ve been doing for the last five years. That\u2019s not playing chess. That\u2019s just being stuck.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:37:19]\u00a0 Yeah, that\u2019s really accurate. We\u2019ll get to a breaking point or I\u2019m like, I\u2019m so frustrated. I feel like you\u2019re not listening to me, because he\u2019s not communicating with me.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:37:29]\u00a0 I\u2019ve found that people are very, very willing to financially support their partners, to emotionally support their partners, if they see their partners proactively making moves. Now, a lot of us think we only need to move upward in order for our partners to be happy. And we get so overwhelmed. We get so focused on perfection that we get paralyzed. But life doesn\u2019t only go up. Life goes down. Things happen. You get laid off. You have a sick child or ill parent or something happens. In reality, you do not only have to be making upward moves. Instead, taking a small step, even if you get it wrong, is often better than staying stuck. Momentum really matters.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:38:24]\u00a0 It seems like the two of you have different visions on what your life is. Would that be fair to say?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:38:31]\u00a0 Yes, I remember actually describing. So my aunt and uncle they are probably upper middle class and he\u2019s like\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:38:43]\u00a0 Upper middle class, okay.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:38:44]\u00a0 [interposing voices 00:38:46] Just to describe what just happened, she goes, they\u2019re upper middle class, and Sean rolls his eyes and he smiles, \u201cUpper middle class, okay.\u201d So Sean, I\u2019m guessing that they are more than upper middle class according to you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:39:00]\u00a0 Yeah, they\u2019re straight just upper class. There\u2019s no middle as part of it.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:39:06]\u00a0 They\u2019ve got a couple of million dollars, I\u2019m sure.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:08]\u00a0 What a shock! Oh, wow. What\u2019s the point you\u2019re trying to make, Kara?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:39:13]\u00a0 I was like, \u201cWell, I like their house.\u201d And he was like, \u201cWhoa, whoa, whoa.\u201d He basically told me not to ever have those expectations in life. And it made me feel selfish for even wanting that.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:29]\u00a0 Can I tell you something?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:39:30]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:31]\u00a0 I hate how that conversation went, the one between you two. Sean, do you see why I don\u2019t like how that went?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:39:41]\u00a0 I don\u2019t think. For me, on my end, that\u2019s probably too limiting and I\u2019m not giving myself any credit or room to grow. And then on Kara\u2019s end I do still feel like that was big homerun swing.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:40:00]\u00a0 But what about how your response made Kara feel? How do you think it came out?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:40:05]\u00a0 That\u2019s not positive. So there\u2019s no reason for me to be that wet of a blanket.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:40:09]\u00a0 Wet blanket, that\u2019s exactly what you were. And that\u2019s why, from the first couple of minutes, I want to just point this tendency out that I\u2019m sure manifests in a million different ways. Kara coming to you and saying, I\u2019m excited about something, and what is she really saying when she talks to you about the couch or this couple? What is she really saying to you beneath it all?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:40:09]\u00a0 I think this is a good idea. I think this is a fun dream. Let\u2019s do it together.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:40:18]\u00a0 Yes, it\u2019s not even that she wants that couch. It\u2019s not that. It\u2019s that she wants to engage with you. She\u2019s basically crying out for some type of engagement. \u201cTalk to me, engage with me. Get excited with me.\u201d And your response instead is what?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:41:01]\u00a0 Usually practical, which is not fun.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:41:04]\u00a0 It\u2019s worse than practical. What did you tell her when she said, \u201cI like that couple. They\u2019re really nice. I\u2019d like to live like that.\u201d What was your response?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:41:15]\u00a0 I think we should lower our expectations.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:41:17]\u00a0 Literally, it\u2019s the most toxic answer you could give. Not only are you saying, \u201cI don\u2019t want to engage with you,\u201d you\u2019re actually telling her, \u201cYour dreams are foolish.\u201d The worst thing a partner wants to feel is embarrassed or ashamed around the one person in life they\u2019re supposed to be able to talk to, honestly.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019m not here to berate you. I want to show you a different way of thinking about money between the two of you, even if you don\u2019t see it the same way. So Sean, how do you think you could do things differently than how you\u2019ve done it in the past, the wet blanket approach?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:41:52]\u00a0 It\u2019s always a work in progress as well. So sometimes I\u2019m better at catching it. And sometimes\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:41:57]\u00a0 Anything that is deeply part of us probably take the rest of our lives to work on. The fact that I picked up on it in the first two minutes is a problem. It\u2019s a real problem. That\u2019s just the candid outside opinion. It\u2019s affecting your relationship. The way you talk about your career is like someone just hoping that they\u2019re going to win the lottery. It\u2019s like, I hope my boss is going to give me a raise because I really deserve it. You\u2019re playing by the wrong rules, and you don\u2019t even know it. And I think that\u2019s what Kara\u2019s frustration is about. You can learn the rules. You\u2019re a savvy guy.<\/p>\n<p>But you have to want to. You have to have a reason to. Right now I don\u2019t hear the reason for the two of you to change. Both of you need to start making some decisions now if you want things to change by the time your daughter\u2019s 4, 5, and 10.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:42:51]\u00a0 We are really good at rationalizing, then we end up in the same spot.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:42:59]\u00a0 What do you think this whole conversation has been about?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:43:02]\u00a0 Yeah, that.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:43:03]\u00a0 Since you\u2019re also good at admitting the problems less, so as actually wanting to make a change.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:43:10]\u00a0 It\u2019s really hard for people to make a change with their money if there\u2019s not a pressing reason. Usually, it\u2019s one of about 10 reasons: we get married, we have a baby, we bought a house, etc. In this case, with Kara and Sean, it doesn\u2019t seem like that you really have a reason to make a change. And so they haven\u2019t. In many ways, it\u2019s as simple as that. I decided that the route I was going on was a dead end. So I wanted to move on to their conscious spending plan. And candidly, I don\u2019t have a lot of confidence right now because without a reason to change, this is just a bunch of random numbers. But who knows, let\u2019s see where this takes us. I asked them to pull up the conscious spending plan that they\u2019d filled out before the call. You can get your own copy at iwt.com\/episode48. Listen to what happens.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:44:08]\u00a0 Let\u2019s look at the numbers. So how do you feel about your spending?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:44:17]\u00a0 A little bit ashamed. Well, I feel like I\u2019ll go back and forth where I\u2019ll get really excited about something and then buy it. And then I feel shame like oh, I went too hard and treated myself or us and then just ruminate on numbers and like, when am I actually going to get to a place where I could do this and not feel stressed.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:44:48]\u00a0 And what is the answer to that?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:44:50]\u00a0 I paid off my car. I paid off a good amount of student loans. I would log in every day. And I love seeing the progress and it made me feel really good. So I now have just $22,000 of student loans versus 100k.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:45:21]\u00a0 Hold on. Why are you sad or depressed? It\u2019s pretty amazing. Did you ever celebrate that?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:45:26]\u00a0 No, because I haven\u2019t finished.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:45:28]\u00a0 So what? Hold on a second. How old is your daughter again? Eight months?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:45:33]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:45:35]\u00a0 And when she turns one, you probably shouldn\u2019t have a birthday celebration because she\u2019s not dead yet. What kind of logic is that? You know what? I\u2019m going to celebrate for you and we\u2019re all going to do it right now. You paid off $78,000 of debt? Round of applause, please. Can we give her a round of applause? Yes. That\u2019s awesome. Take the win.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:46:00]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:46:01]\u00a0 Listen, one of my philosophies is to take the win. The fact that you\u2019ve paid off $78,000 and you haven\u2019t even taken a breath and given yourself a pat on the back tells me it\u2019s not actually about the numbers on this spreadsheet. It\u2019s about you. It\u2019s about how you feel about money.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:46:21]\u00a0 For most of us, money is a source of guilt and shame and insecurity. And even when we\u2019re winning, we still operate with the mentality that we\u2019re losing. And you know what we tell ourselves? When I finally do x, then I\u2019ll feel better about money. The truth is, the way you feel about money is highly uncorrelated with how much you have in the bank. You\u2019ve heard millionaires on this podcast who still agonize over a $300 hotel stay. And now here you hear Kara, she\u2019s done an amazing job paying off $78,000. And she feels ashamed. Personally, I think she\u2019s done an awesome job. So I want you to get in the habit of taking the win. Money should feel good along the way. Otherwise, it won\u2019t feel good at the end.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:47:19]\u00a0 With the market climbing, I was like, we need to do something. So we\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:47:25]\u00a0 What was your conclusion?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:47:26]\u00a0 Bought a house.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:47:28]\u00a0 And what made you decide to buy?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:47:31]\u00a0 Looking at other properties that we would have liked to rent and recognizing that those were going to be pretty close to what a mortgage would be based on what we\u2019re hoping to continue renting, not wanting to downsize back to\u00a0 a one-bedroom apartment.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:47:48]\u00a0 And your mortgage is how much?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:47:51]\u00a0 3200.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:47:53]\u00a0 3200, plus you got your 400 bucks of utilities, insurance, etc. How do you feel about the amount that you spend on your fixed costs?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:48:05]\u00a0 Stressed. It was good before and now it\u2019s not.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:48:13]\u00a0 So just so everybody knows, we\u2019re looking at their conscious spending plan. You guys did the conscious spending plan before. And in this conscious spending plan, I have some recommendations on general parameters, how much you should be spending. And in general, speaking generally here, 50 to 60% of your take home pay would be a good amount for fixed costs. That would be things like your housing, cars, groceries, things like that. What\u2019s your number?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:48:47]\u00a0 78.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:48:47]\u00a0 That\u2019s pretty high. The conscious spending plan has my specific recommendations for how much you should be spending in each of the four major categories, including guilt-free spending. You\u2019ll quickly learn that most people get into trouble because their fixed costs are too high. Instead of the 28\/36 rule, which is 28% for housing and 36% for total debt, you\u2019re more like 30 to 42. That starts to feel really tight, doesn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:49:18]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:49:20]\u00a0 We\u2019ve been sitting down with an investment advisor through a local church that we started to work with, and then trying to get more with this guy going.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:49:29]\u00a0 How much does this guy charge you? Please don\u2019t tell me a percentage. God, look at the look on their faces. What is it? 1%? Maybe even 1.5%? Tell me.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:49:44]\u00a0 I think there\u2019s a ladder based on performance of the actual accounts.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:49:49]\u00a0 No, it\u2019s not on performance. I can tell you that. They don\u2019t like to get measured on performance because they fucking suck. But there\u2019s a ladder I\u2019m sure based on the number of assets you have. That\u2019s one of the reasons I started what I do. I don\u2019t think everyday people should have to become financial experts to avoid getting ripped off. And I wish you didn\u2019t have to go through this. But you did. Luckily, we caught it early, we can make some changes. So this investment advisor sat you both down and let me guess their first question. What are your financial goals?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:50:24]\u00a0 Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:50:25]\u00a0 Yeah, that sounded right.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:50:26]\u00a0 I\u2019m going to assume that your advisor is charging you 1%. That\u2019s a typical scammy amount that an investment advisor would charge you. So let me ask you this, Sean. Does 1% sound like a lot to you?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:50:45]\u00a0 I mean, at face value, no.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:50:47]\u00a0 That\u2019s a great answer. So how come when you were mowing lawns you didn\u2019t charge Mr. Johnson down the road 1% of his net worth to mow his loans every week?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:50:58]\u00a0 At the time because I had no concept of 1% of Mr. Johnson\u2019s worth.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:51:03]\u00a0 But would he have paid you that?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:51:04]\u00a0 No.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:51:05]\u00a0 It was something that Sean and I felt like it was seamless. We were on the same page, like, yes, do we want to feel secure about our finances and have this little let\u2019s save for our daughter, whatever if something were to happen to us.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:51:23]\u00a0 It\u2019s sweet the way you put it. It was something we did together. I like that. Unfortunately, you made the wrong decision. But the intention was good. That part was good. So why don\u2019t we just take the intention and make a better decision?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:51:43]\u00a0 Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:51:44]\u00a0 Sounds good to me.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:51:44]\u00a0 I like the intention of the two of you talking about money. You know what I like even better?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:51:48]\u00a0 What?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:51:48]\u00a0 Is the two of you keeping tens of thousands or hundreds of thousand dollars for yourself. How about that? Look, they got scammed by some church advisor, fine, it happens. You\u2019re going to make mistakes with your money. Better to make them early on and fix them now rather than to wait later in life when those $1,000 mistakes will be much more costly. I don\u2019t mind money mistakes, life happens. Just trust yourself to notice them and to fix them. And so because you\u2019re spending all this money on your fixed costs, what are you not able to do?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:52:26]\u00a0 Fun things.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:52:28]\u00a0 On trip.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:52:29]\u00a0 Tell me, like what? What are you not able to do? Think about yourself and think about yourself as a couple.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:52:37]\u00a0 Together it limits how often we can see my family because they\u2019re pretty far removed from us. And they\u2019re in an area where there\u2019s no direct flight at all. So then your option is like three-day road trip or nothing. It affects how generous we can be for holidays, or weddings or anything else. We\u2019re going to have to start counting the pennies a little bit more.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:53:03]\u00a0 What about the future for the two of you? Do you both want to be doing the same thing you\u2019re doing 10 years from now?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:53:07]\u00a0 No.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:53:08]\u00a0 Your daughter will be about 10 years old.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:53:09]\u00a0 Absolutely not.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:53:10]\u00a0 No. Wow, that was a resounding no. Tell me more, Sean. Just want to point out that is the first time I heard Sean speak up that authoritatively on this entire call.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:53:24]\u00a0 Well, I mean, she\u2019s only going to want to do more and more things. I want to be able to put her in whatever she wants. She wants to do ballet. She wants to play T ball. She wants to go to summer camp, whatever. I can start taking water sandwiches for lunch. It\u2019s only going to save us so much money. So there\u2019s got to be some changes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:53:46]\u00a0 So what are those changes?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:53:49]\u00a0 There\u2019s things that we can trim down, some subscriptions that we don\u2019t need, for example, there\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:53:54]\u00a0 Like what?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:53:54]\u00a0 We were paying for YouTube TV, but\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:53:55]\u00a0 That\u2019s like five bucks.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:54:02]\u00a0 No, it\u2019s 55.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:54:03]\u00a0 It\u2019s like 60 a month.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:54:05]\u00a0 $60 a month for YouTube TV? All right, I\u2019m out of touch. Who the hell would pay 60 bucks a month for YouTube TV? YouTube is going to kill me if they hear this, whatever. $60 is not going to change your life, honestly. Yes, you should probably cancel the $60 a month thing because I don\u2019t know what the hell you get for that. But that\u2019s not going to change your life.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:54:25]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:54:27]\u00a0 They\u2019re spending nearly 80% of their take home on fixed costs. But Sean\u2019s first response is about some YouTube subscription. I have to tell you guys, I lost it here. They\u2019re both playing small. And what\u2019s worse, they\u2019re both being passive, especially Sean. Have you noticed that they\u2019ve barely asked me a single thing? It seems like they\u2019re just waiting for me to magically solve their problems. But when I asked them what they can do, the answer I get back is about a $60 subscription. I\u2019ve tried talking about the numbers. I\u2019ve tried talking about their childhood. I\u2019ve tried talking about the relationship. I\u2019ve even tried talking about the couch. And this is where I got pissed off. There\u2019s no vision here.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:55:14]\u00a0 Yeah, we need a vision.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:55:18]\u00a0 Do you guys want help creating a vision?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:55:20]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:55:20]\u00a0 Do you know how to ask for help?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:55:22]\u00a0 Can you help us?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:55:24]\u00a0 No, you don\u2019t? Sean, tell me about that.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:55:26]\u00a0 I\u2019m terrible at asking for help.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:55:28]\u00a0 I\u2019ve been wondering for the last two hours, what am I doing here? Am I going to get asked any questions at all? You know that this is your time, right? If I were you, how would I have come on this call? If I were in your position and I had the chance to talk to somebody, what would I have done specifically?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:55:45]\u00a0 Honestly, you strike me as the kind of person who would have four or five bullet points, an action plan, how can we put together, deliverables, how do we get out of this.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:55:55]\u00a0 I would have come in surgical. I would have been like, this guy, I hardly ever get the chance to talk to somebody like this. I\u2019m going to milk him for every last thing he can tell me until he finally says, \u201cHey, man, enough free questions.\u201d It\u2019s confusing to me. We\u2019re over time. I don\u2019t mind. I\u2019ll stay as long as we need to stay. But my goal is to help you guys. But I can\u2019t help you two if you don\u2019t want to be helped. And right now, it seems like both of you just want to be led along some path. And that\u2019s not the way this works. That\u2019s the entire theme of this conversation is do you have enough pain to want to make a change? It\u2019s still unclear to me. I think we need to fundamentally reconceptualize this dynamic right now.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [00:56:40]\u00a0 Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:56:40]\u00a0 Right.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:56:42]\u00a0 You tell me what you need, and I will assist you.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:56:45]\u00a0 Okay.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:56:47]\u00a0 All right. I got pretty mad at them. This was also me taking the burden of solving their problems and handing it back to them. Well, I guess I basically threw it back at them. What I really wanted to tell them was, Kara and Sean, your problems are yours to solve. I truly hope you solve them and I\u2019ll be here to help. But I\u2019m not going to do it for you. Take ownership or not, it\u2019s up to you. Just as I think about it, I wish I had said it that way. You know what else I wish? I wish you could have seen their body language. After I lit them up, they literally sat up straighter. Sean finally leaned forward. And finally, they started being honest with me.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:57:36]\u00a0 We have spent a large part of our relationship trying to realize some of Kara\u2019s dreams. We really wanted to get all that debt paid down. We thought, okay, like, well, surely, if we pay off all this debt, we\u2019ll have all this extra money later for different things. When it comes to our finances, the biggest hurdle for us has been that I don\u2019t know what I don\u2019t know. I can\u2019t even start the learning process because I don\u2019t really know what questions I should be asking. I\u2019m hoping that some of this conversation can help me figure out what the heck we\u2019re supposed to do instead of like, okay, well, that was clearly not the right answer or not a right answer.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:58:18]\u00a0 Okay, I appreciate that. So you\u2019re looking for help?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:58:20]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:58:22]\u00a0 Sean, you\u2019re 30 years old. You mentioned, five years ago you probably should have started investing. Yeah, probably you should have, but you didn\u2019t, that\u2019s fine. We\u2019re here. But five years from now, your daughter\u2019s going to be five years old, almost six. What\u2019s going to be different?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:58:39]\u00a0 I will definitely have a different job by then. I don\u2019t know what it is yet, but it will not be this.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:58:44]\u00a0 What\u2019s going to be different about the job? Tell me about the income.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:58:51]\u00a0 I\u2019d like to see myself in like at least a 30 to 40% increase on what I\u2019ve got, because I have the tools.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:58:57]\u00a0 How much are you going to be making?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:59:01]\u00a0 I would love to see myself between 75 and 90.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:59:05]\u00a0 Took a lot to get you to say that number. What\u2019s that?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:59:13]\u00a0 I don\u2019t know. Growing up with a family that made nowhere near that and still seemed happy, I guess.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:59:24]\u00a0 This is a big moment. Sean is designing his own rich life right in front of us. Nobody can get him to do it. Kara couldn\u2019t. I couldn\u2019t. It has to be Sean.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [00:59:36]\u00a0 A lot of those people that I ran into, not that all Angelenos are this way, but a lot of people I ran into use money as a weapon. And I didn\u2019t love that.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:59:48]\u00a0 I don\u2019t want you to think that if you make more money that you\u2019re going to weaponize it or turn into an asshole. One of the reasons that I talk about money and I share real numbers and other couples, is I want people to see that you can make a lot of money and you can be incredibly generous. Sean is working off of a common invisible script, that rich people are evil. So if I make a lot of money, I\u2019ll be evil, probably an asshole too. Deep down this is one of the things that I think has been holding Sean back from taking ownership over his career. It\u2019s not the only thing. But it\u2019s a big one.<\/p>\n<p>So Kara, you\u2019re deeply affected by your anxiety around money, and you want somebody to give you permission to know that you are making the right decision. That\u2019s one of the reasons you ask, Sean, can we get this couch? I\u2019m going to try to convince you because deep down, you\u2019re putting yourself in the position of needing somebody\u2019s blessing, or needing somebody\u2019s permission, even though you don\u2019t really need it. In fact, you\u2019re the higher earner in this relationship. That\u2019s number one.<\/p>\n<p>And number two, Sean, you\u2019re playing a different game, which is learned helplessness. I don\u2019t know. I listened to the thing a little bit, but I don\u2019t know. And that\u2019s it. Now, I will commend the two of you for getting together and getting that advisor even though the advisor was not the right decision. Luckily, we caught it. And the two of you came together today. That\u2019s awesome, too. I commend you for that.<\/p>\n<p>So I suggest that you consider making a few changes. The last thing you want to do is to squelch the other partner\u2019s dreams. If anything, the answer is to first engage with them. Get curious, \u201cTell me about that. Oh my God, tell me about this couch. So where do you find it?\u201d And you clear up, put your phone away. Visibly set yourself up to be an engaged partner. \u201cTell me about this. But I don\u2019t know, our daughter is going to spill stuff on it. What do you think about that?\u201d Not \u201cOur daughter is going to spill stuff. It\u2019ll suck. No, our daughter is going to spill. She\u2019s a klutz. So what are we going to do when she spills that milk on the couch?\u201d And then, of course, Kara smiles. Look at that smile. Kara\u2019s smiling right now. She\u2019s grinning. Kara, how would you react if he said something like that?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [01:02:13]\u00a0 It won\u2019t be a problem because it\u2019s stain resistant.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:02:16]\u00a0 Exactly. She\u2019s like, got that. She pulls out like a papyrus scroll. She\u2019s ready to break down all the features.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [01:02:21]\u00a0 And it\u2019s white. So of course, the milk won\u2019t show.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:02:25]\u00a0 There you go. Look at this. Okay, see, we can make it fun. Now, I\u2019m not saying you have to get the couch. I am saying there\u2019s a way to talk about these things so that you two are partners, not adversaries, and not one person dragging the other by their teeth. Sean, are you on board with this so far?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [01:02:48]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:02:51]\u00a0 And I hope Sean is lighting a fire under you to start making more money. Because if you make a lot more, that\u2019s going to automatically make the 74% go down because your denominator will be bigger.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [01:03:07]\u00a0 Yeah, right. You did it again. Yeah, I get that.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:03:09]\u00a0 What are you going to do with that money?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [01:03:13]\u00a0 It sounds like it would be a better idea to sock it away for long term investment.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:03:17]\u00a0 Agreed. I\u2019m going to share something on my screen. I\u2019m going to calculate out something for you here. So this is how much you currently have. You two have $52,000 invested. That\u2019s what he told me. Right now you\u2019re going to add $400 a month. That\u2019s your baseline for investments, correct?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [01:03:20]\u00a0 Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:03:21]\u00a0 All right. So I\u2019m adding $4,800 a year. I\u2019m going to give you 35 years to grow it just to show you what would happen by the time you approximately retire. And I\u2019m going to assume a 7% interest rate. I know you don\u2019t understand where that comes from. Chapter 7 of my book will tell you, chapter 6 and 7. So if you just do that, you have $1.2 million.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [01:04:04]\u00a0 What is it with calculator?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:04:06]\u00a0 What\u2019s that face you just made, Kara? She look like I just put some Hemlock in her coffee. What\u2019s that look on your face?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [01:04:13]\u00a0 Disbelief.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:04:14]\u00a0 Why is that?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [01:04:15]\u00a0 I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s crazy how it can just sit there and then grow that much. I know it\u2019s like compounding and that\u2019s what we\u2019re trying to understand.<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [01:04:29]\u00a0 I like that. I would like to make that even higher.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:04:33]\u00a0 Oh, you would?<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [01:04:34]\u00a0 Really?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:04:35]\u00a0 Wow. She\u2019s just clapping right now. What do you notice about the dynamic between the two of you right now?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [01:04:44]\u00a0 We\u2019re both smiling. So that\u2019s good.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [01:04:49]\u00a0 Dreaming.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:04:50]\u00a0 Yeah, it seems like you guys are a team. I have to say it\u2019s funny. Most of the time, by the time we\u2019re in this, it\u2019s like very nuts and bolts. But I actually love watching the two. Look at these smiles. And the two of you are really collaborating together. I really admire it.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:05:04]\u00a0 I was loving their teamwork at this point in the call. You could see it in their smiles. You could see it in their body language. You could hear it in their voices. This is how money should sound when you talk about it. Of course, to get to this point, you have to understand the fundamentals of money. And you have to have some basic numbers in place. If you don\u2019t have that, it\u2019s no surprise that people fight for their entire lives over $3 questions.<\/p>\n<p>Ultimately, I wanted Kara and Sean to realize that they have to find their solution. There\u2019s no magic trick I can pull out to fix this. The answer is in changing the way they both treat money, especially Sean. Between the two of you, you can tweak a couple of things. The changes you made actually already made you a million dollars. It\u2019s just going to take you a long time to have it. But I don\u2019t think you want to wait until you\u2019re 65 years old to have money.<\/p>\n<p>In your application Kara, you said like, I want to live. I want to travel. Ultimately, the biggest driver here is your income. And that is exactly what I wanted us to get to. If I came in here and I tell you, \u201cSean, you got to make more money.\u201d You\u2019re like, basically fuck off. \u201cI know, but I like my job. And my co-workers are nice.\u201d But if you have a vision that you created together, then it becomes very clear what to do. How do you both feel right now?<\/p>\n<p>Sean:\u00a0 [01:06:36]\u00a0 At least we\u2019re pointed in the right direction.<\/p>\n<p>Kara:\u00a0 [01:06:39]\u00a0 Hopeful that this momentum will continue and that we\u2019ll be united. And I just feel the urgency and I want him to feel that with me.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:06:55]\u00a0 I found three layers to Kara and Sean\u2019s problems. First, the mechanical answer is that they\u2019re spending too much on their fixed costs. Second, a more detailed answer is that Sean needs to get a better paying job. And third, the real answer is that they both have to change the way they treat money. And Sean has to take on the bigger part of this. Now they have a lot of work to do, but they realize they have to do it together.<\/p>\n<p>After speaking to Sean and Kara, I asked them to follow up with me in a few days with what had surprised them, and what specific actions they were taking based on our call. Kara did exactly that. She had already gotten rid of their expensive financial advisor, and she had re-invested their money using my system. To read the rest of the changes that Kara made, you can go to iwt.com\/followups.<\/p>\n<p>But I want to tell you what I heard from Sean. Now in these follow ups, I often get pages of details. I got a lot of details from Kara. But Sean didn\u2019t follow up with me in a few days like I asked. My team actually had to reach out to him and ask him to follow up. He replied with the following single sentence, \u201cI think the biggest takeaways for me were the importance of communicating more frequently so Kara feels like we\u2019re on the same page. And it just further underscored a need for a career shift on my part.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>What do you think? What do you think happens over 5 or 10 or 15 years when in a relationship one person, the leader, becomes increasingly frustrated that the other person is not being proactive, is not making changes? If you go to iwt.com\/followups, you\u2019ll be able to see future updates from Sean and Kara and my other podcast guests.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I\u2019m Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven\u2019t read I Will Teach You To Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library and it will show you these specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach You To Be Rich system into your personal finances.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Kara and Sean make $150k annually, with $100k of that coming from Kara\u2019s salary in healthcare. They have a baby daughter, and Kara would like to take a step back in her career in order to spend more time with her. The problem is, Sean\u2019s happily (and hopelessly) stuck in a dead-end job. What do [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-119065","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Vika DD.NYC\u00ae","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119065","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=119065"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119065\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=119065"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=119065"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}