{"id":119071,"date":"2022-07-19T15:46:09","date_gmt":"2022-07-19T19:46:09","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=119071"},"modified":"2025-03-28T15:49:38","modified_gmt":"2025-03-28T19:49:38","slug":"052-jeff-lisa","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/052-jeff-lisa\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 52. \u201cHe hides purchases from me\u2013and I let him\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/1fbj0jhtGxzZHM4tMJIFsw?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Lisa and Jeff are in their forties and have a blended household. They had about a $300k net worth before they were awarded a $1.275M settlement in January of this year. What\u2019s important isn\u2019t the details of the settlement, but that they don\u2019t know what to do with it.<\/p>\n<p>She doesn\u2019t trust him\u2014and for good reason. He opens lines of credit and makes secret purchases while also refusing to participate in financial planning, leaving Lisa to carry the burden. She\u2019s looking for a teammate, but he\u2019s happy to simply send her his paycheck and make jokes about their toxic dynamic.<\/p>\n<p>They\u2019ve invested the windfall in a few places (yes, one of which is a bad financial advisor), but they lack a vision\u2014and the communication to build one. Before they decide what to do with the settlement cash, they need to be honest with themselves, and with one another. That\u2019s where I come in. Let\u2019s see if we can bring some clarity to their situation.<\/p>\n<h2>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Transcript<\/h2>\n<p><u><a href=\"https:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1VA_n2eoTlatVZrWZ7SmL4Mfg0rLiPXIw\/view?usp=sharing\">Download the full transcript PDF<\/a><\/u><\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:00:02] You got a windfall. I want to talk about that. You said it\u2019s seven figures. Can you tell me how much it was for?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:00:08] Yes. So specifically, it was $1.275 million.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:00:15] So how should we even begin?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:00:17] This is tough to admit, but let\u2019s be honest. I hide purchases from her, and it\u2019s for the sole purpose that I don\u2019t really have to discuss the purchase.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:00:28] I will try to bring something up and he will aggressively tell me no. And he will shut me down and turn away. And I will be like, okay.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:00:38] I don\u2019t know if I agree with that.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:00:39] It is totally true.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:00:41] I usually make jokes. I usually tell you, hey, whatever you want goes. I get out of that conversation as fast as I can. She feels a sense of loneliness, aloneness. I have absolved myself of any responsibility of making a mistake.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:00:57] It\u2019s somewhat disheartening and kills the dream of\u2013 it leaves me like, well, what should I do? I think this is going to be great for us and he doesn\u2019t want to talk about it.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:01:15] How do you deal with money if you are the person in your relationship who handles it and your partner doesn\u2019t want to talk about it at all? Well, that\u2019s the situation today with Jeff and Lisa, who are in their 40s married and they have a blended family with three teenage children. Lisa feels overwhelmed because Jeff does not want to be involved with money whatsoever. In fact, he\u2019s developed all kinds of strategies to avoid talking about money. He even hides some of his purchases so he doesn\u2019t have to talk about them with Lisa.<\/p>\n<p>But as I asked him questions about this, I discover how many layers there really are in their relationship. I asked Lisa, how do you feel hearing that your husband hides purchases? And you know what she says, I feel bad for him. She takes on the burden of managing the money. Sometimes she worries that they don\u2019t have enough to go out and eat. And yet, they are paying a huge amount unknowingly to a financial advisor. So there are relationship challenges, there are psychological challenges, there\u2019s flat-out lies, and of course, technical challenges with understanding how money really works.<\/p>\n<p>I want you to listen to this episode, especially noticing the way that they talk about money. There\u2019s lots of circular logic, lots of words that don\u2019t really mean anything. And I point this out to them, and they are quite startled. So listen to the episode, and definitely listen to the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/podcast\/?utm_source=podcast&amp;utm_medium=owned&amp;utm_campaign=podcast-followups\">follow-ups<\/a>\u00a0that they send me. You can get them from\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/podcast\/?utm_source=podcast&amp;utm_medium=owned&amp;utm_campaign=podcast-followups\">iwt.com\/followups<\/a>, and I hope you listen to the entire episode first. I\u2019m Ramit Sethi, and this is I Will Teach You To Be Rich.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:03:00] I was doing well. He was doing well. We were high earners. We didn\u2019t have too many financial problems. And in January of this year, roughly six months ago, I was awarded a seven-figure settlement. And it\u2019s obviously life-changing for anyone to come into seven figures.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:03:25] Can you tell me how much it was for?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:03:27] Yes. So specifically, it was $1.275 million.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:03:34] Okay, great. Let\u2019s call it 1.3. Is that post-tax?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:03:38] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:03:38] Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:03:39] Our collective income before this happened was about 150 a year.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:03:46] Before this came in, what was your net worth?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:03:52] It was around 300K.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:03:58] Okay. And that\u2019s yours or the two of you?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:04:01] Anything that we have now is what we\u2019ve built together.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:04:07] I\u2019ve always counted her money is her money and my money is her money.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:04:11] I think that\u2019s a cute phrase, but I actually don\u2019t think that\u2019s doing you any favors.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:04:14] It\u2019s not doing me any favors, but it\u2019s also true.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:04:17] And it\u2019s the same with the settlement. And I find it\u2019s like really grates on me that he\u2019s like, that\u2019s your money. That\u2019s your money. That\u2019s your money. And I\u2019m like, no, it isn\u2019t. It\u2019s ours.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:04:30] This dad joke is quite revealing of Jeff\u2019s overall mindset on money. And it really bothers Lisa. It\u2019s our first clue at the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/carrots\/money-scripts-for-couples\/\">larger problems with communication.<\/a>\u00a0Unfortunately, Lisa and Jeff can\u2019t disclose the details of the settlement due to an NDA, but it doesn\u2019t really matter. They have a $1.275 million settlement. We\u2019re here to figure out how they\u2019re spending it, how they\u2019re investing it, how they\u2019re managing it, how they\u2019re even thinking about it. If you were in their position in your 40s and you received a $1 million settlement, what would you change?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:05:07] So you have this windfall. Lisa, you are currently handling the money?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:5:12] Yes. Is this the part where I get to ask you a bunch of questions?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:05:16] Well, we can talk about your numbers. I know you came prepared. Go ahead.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:05:21] I will start with because we exchanged a couple of pieces of information about the financial planner, and\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:05:28] You have a financial advisor.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:05:31] Oh, God, there we go. You\u2019re going to hear about this financial advisor throughout this episode. I want to emphasize the importance of why this advisor is such a central figure in today\u2019s conversation. First off, a lot of people believe that sometimes they need help. I don\u2019t mind it. You want to hire somebody to come clean your apartment every month? Fine, no problem. You want to hire a personal trainer? There\u2019s lots of things you can do. I have no problem with that at all. But you will often see people with money delegating this thing, treating a financial advisor like somebody who mows your lawn. Oh, I don\u2019t want to mow my lawn. I\u2019ll just pay the experts. No big deal.<\/p>\n<p>To me, this represents a central irresponsibility in life. You cannot simply delegate one of the most important things in life without understanding the basics. And the basics of personal finance are not that complicated, but they are tricky. And they are full of pitfalls. And guess who takes advantage of most people\u2019s ignorance, the financial industry. So I understand why they have a financial advisor. I actually don\u2019t even mind if people have a certain type of financial advisor. But you\u2019re going to hear how this person represents a much larger problem in their relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:07:01] Let\u2019s talk about it. So if you want a financial planner or financial advisor, you can certainly hire one. I\u2019m not opposed to them, but you should never ever pay a percentage-based fee. They call it AUM, assets under management. You\u2019re paying 0.9%. And I\u2019m about to show you why you should never pay that.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:07:24] You\u2019re going to make me cry on here.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:07:26] I hope so. So how should we even begin? How did you find this financial advisor?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:07:33] This is a man that helps my mom with her financial plan.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:07:39] What a surprise. And how did she find him?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:07:41] From what I understand, he was offered at work.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:07:41] Oh, god. Talk through that. Oh my God.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:07:42] I\u2019ve talked to him several times over the years. He helped me allocate my 401K several years ago. It performed really well. But now\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:07:57] It performed really well between what years? Good years?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:08:03] Yeah, that\u2019s what I was just going to say now that the market is tanking at the moment, it\u2019s like, okay, well, yeah, that was probably pretty easy. And he\u2019s made these choices now and am I in a bad spot.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:08:16] Well, you\u2019re not in a bad spot. You\u2019re rich.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:8:18] Well, that\u2019s tough but yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:08:20] No, you\u2019re rich. Do you know you\u2019re rich?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:8:25] Maybe.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:08:26] Oh, God, not this again. Every time I have a rich couple on this podcast they go, I don\u2019t know if I\u2019m rich. I guess I am comfortable. Ah, not this again.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:08:39] Ramit, it comes from\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:08:41] I wasn\u2019t. It\u2019s very new.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:08:42] It comes from a place of\u2013 I mean, dude, I have a tough time with it. It comes from a place of I\u2019ve seen it disappear over the years, and it\u2019s fear-based. I hate to say it, but that\u2019s the whole thing here. That\u2019s why I\u2019m cringing about the percentage talk of this financial advisor. It\u2019s like, I know that it\u2019s just some guide just to put shit in markets that some other person is buying and everybody\u2019s got their finger in the pie, and everyone\u2019s taking a taste and it\u2019s dwindling the savings. And then when I lose, they win. And when I win, they win, and it drives me crazy. But I also don\u2019t know what to do instead.<\/p>\n<p>]<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:09:21] I\u2019m going to go over the numbers about their financial advisor a little later in this episode, but I can already tell you, they need to get rid of this guy. And I want to understand how they got here in the first place. Before they came on the show, I asked them to fill out a conscious spending plan.\u00a0<strong><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-admin\/post.php?post=43236&amp;action=edit\">[Get your own free conscious spending plan here]<\/a><\/strong>\u00a0That breaks your spending down into four categories, fixed costs, saving, investing, and guilt-free spending. You can get your own copy of the conscious spending plan at\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-admin\/post.php?post=43236&amp;action=edit\">iwt.com\/episode52<\/a>. What this allows me to do is to take a quick back of the napkin-look at their spending. And to them, it\u2019s just numbers, but to me, it reveals a whole lot more. Now I know what their numbers are. Now I want to ask them about how they talk about money. Listen it.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:10:12] When you talk about money right now, which is never, what\u2019s the tenor of those conversations?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:10:18] I will try to bring something up and he will aggressively tell me no. And he will shut me down and turn away. And I will be like, okay.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:10:30] I don\u2019t know if I agree with that.]<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:10:31] It is totally true.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:10:31] I usually make jokes. I usually tell you, hey, whatever you want goes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:10:35] This is a common thing with couples. So here\u2019s how it works. I\u2019m just going to break it down. One person, usually the person who likes to be in control and is checking all the apps every day, they see something. And they stew over it for hours, days, sometimes weeks. And then something sets them off. And it\u2019s like this controlled fury. It could be, I love you, and I care about you, but if you answer this question wrong, I am going to murder you. I\u2019m going to cut your neck and you\u2019re going to bleed out here on the bathroom floor. It\u2019s right between those two. You can\u2019t really tell. They go, so what\u2019s this purchase? Like that. It\u2019s like a tiger just making one little sound. Jeff, anything sound familiar?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:11:26] Yes, it\u2019s funny you said that because she does that. And I immediately assume the knife is coming. And the knife never comes because she doesn\u2019t do the knife.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:11:33] That\u2019s correct. That\u2019s correct she doesn\u2019t do the knife. And so you overreact, don\u2019t you?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:11:39] Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:11:40] You come out guns blazing and you use all your unconscious and conscious techniques\u2013 diversion, haha jokes, and also just over the top aggressiveness, and then you get what you want, don\u2019t you? Which is what?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:11:54] I get out of that conversation as fast as I can.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:11:56] That\u2019s correct. You escape. So you still remain the pursuee. Lisa, you\u2019re the pursuer but you walk away steaming, frustrated. And that\u2019s it. You take it on yourself. Not very productive. Pretty interesting. I liked that Jeff is being honest, maybe a little too honest. Jeff is admitting to everything, which is in itself a technique. How would you describe the way that you treat money, Jeff?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:12:28] There\u2019s always going to be more, but there\u2019s never going to be an abundance if that makes sense.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:12:36] No, can you explain that?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:12:37] I\u2019m always going to be able to make more money. It\u2019s like if I go and I buy a car\u2013 first time when I was a kid, the first new car I bought, I technically couldn\u2019t afford say, new car, but within three months, I was paying for that car, no problem. I was making more money than I made before. It\u2019s like when I adjust my spending habits up, the money comes. I mean, that space in career where I\u2019m always making more money.<\/p>\n<p>It\u2019s always been sales or some kind of business development. I always figure it out. If you came to me and said, I got to figure out how to pay an extra $1,000 a month for something, I\u2019ll find the $1,000. I\u2019ll make the $1,000. Lisa will tell you. I\u2019m working on this business. I\u2019ve been very much attuned to the P&amp;Ls, paying attention to the financials.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:12:37] How about on your personal finances?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:13:26] Zero. I\u2019m not doing it. I rely on Lisa.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:13:29] And does that work for you?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:13:32] It works well for me, yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:13:34] Yeah, that\u2019s an honest answer. It does. And since it seems to work well for you, I bet you there\u2019s no real reason to change.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:13:43] There is no real reason to change other than I realize it\u2019s not fair and it\u2019s not honest and it\u2019s not a good thing.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:13:53] What he just said is the key phrase. He said, there is no reason to change. Jeff is just here because Lisa wants him to be. But he has no real desire to change because he has no real incentive to change. You have to listen in for the key phrases that reveal everything. People will tell you 10 minutes of stuff, and oftentimes in that 10 minutes, there\u2019s one sentence that is the only thing that matters. And Jeff just set it for us. Now, what about Lisa? What does she get out of all of this?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:14:29] Lisa, how would you describe the way you treat money?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:14:36] I want to control it. I actually think that\u2019s pretty good. I want to control the money. So I want to be in control of it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:14:47] Let me ask a few questions about control. How often do you log into your apps?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:14:53] So currently, I do that probably daily or close to daily.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:15:00] When you look at your numbers, you type in your password and you click Submit and you\u2019re waiting for it to load, what\u2019s the feeling you have as you\u2019re waiting to see the numbers every day?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:15:17] Again, there\u2019s actually some negative feelings, some dread, and this has to do with the market, the current market conditions.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:15:25] So would you say that you react emotionally based on what\u2019s going on in the market?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:15:31] Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:15:31] Do you think that\u2019s good or bad?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:15:33] I know it\u2019s bad. It\u2019s a little bit of self-torture because I\u2019m likely to probably blow up one day and have a seemingly overreaction. And that could cause a big fight, I suppose.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:15:49] Can I give you a candid piece of feedback?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:15:52] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:15:53] I would actually love to see an overreaction from you.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:15:56] Yeah, many people would.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi] 15:59] Yeah, if anything I feel like you have underreacted. What would your overreaction be?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:16:08] Oh my gosh, I might yell. Honestly, I typically treat my anger with silence. And so I won\u2019t look at him. I won\u2019t make eye contact.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:16:22] Wow. What an overreaction. I\u2019m so scared of\u2013 let me put myself in the mind of Jeff for a second. Let me see if this is working out just the way I want. I don\u2019t want to talk about money. I just want to drop a bag of money and have you handle it. And if she gets really mad at me, then you know what she\u2019s going to do? She\u2019s not going to make me talk about money at all. Whoa, so scary.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:16:44] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:16:45] Ramit, you are the overreaction. The reason we\u2019re here is because you\u2019re meant to\u2013 it\u2019s what\u2019s happening. You\u2019re putting me in my place. It\u2019s she needed help. It\u2019s all coming together really fast right now. You\u2019re having a conversation that she\u2019s not having.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:17:01] Jeff, you said something really interesting, I\u2019m putting you in your place. What does that mean?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:17:08] You\u2019re calling me on my BS. I\u2019m unfortunately a little too honest with myself and other people, even though I hide behind this crap sometimes. But the reality is, one of the things about Lisa here is she will endure worse than I can dish out. She has endured worse than I can dish out. I don\u2019t take advantage of it. But at the same time, it\u2019s a fact of our life that she will\u2013 I can make some jokes and I can have some fun with the fact that she\u2019s running our finances, and even if it\u2019s a big problem for her, for the most part, I know she\u2019s not coming at me about it. So I\u2019m taking advantage of that to a certain extent.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:17:55] You said, I don\u2019t take advantage of her, and then five seconds later you say, I\u2019m taking advantage of that. Let me play that back for you again. Listen and see what you notice.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:18:08] She has endured worse than I can dish out. I don\u2019t take advantage of it, but at the same time, it\u2019s a fact of our life that she will\u2013 I can make some jokes, and I can have some fun with the fact that she\u2019s running our finances. And even if it\u2019s a big problem for her, for the most part, I know she\u2019s not coming at me about it. So I\u2019m taking advantage of that to a certain extent. I\u2019m not purposely trying to take advantage of her, but it is certainly convenient that I don\u2019t have to worry about her coming at me about it.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:18:46] I find you two very puzzling. And I find you both very interesting. I\u2019ll tell you why.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:18:52] Why?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:18:53] I looked at your application. I studied it very carefully. I spoke to my colleague about it. And one thing that I noticed was that you both self-edit a lot. You talk in circles if you can cut through the way that you both talk around the problem. But in order to get there, we need to be honest. So it\u2019s either you\u2019re taking advantage of her or you\u2019re not. It\u2019s one or the\u2013 it cannot be both at the same time.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:19:21] What a stark contradiction on Jeff\u2019s part. First, he said he\u2019s too honest that he doesn\u2019t take advantage of Lisa. And then just seconds later, he calmly explained how he goes about taking advantage of Lisa. And they do this throughout today\u2019s conversation. They contradict themselves. They talk in circles. They edit themselves. Keep an ear out for this.<\/p>\n<p>This is a very common deflection technique for people who have developed conscious and unconscious strategies to get what they want. They talk, they spin, they pull out their bag of tricks of jokes and aggression and silence and end up changing nothing. No wonder they\u2019re having a hard time talking about money.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:20:07] Lisa, how would you describe the way that Jeff interacts with your personal finances?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:20:17]<\/p>\n<p>He is mostly hands-off. Day to day, he hands his paycheck over to me. And it seems legitimately fine with that unless there is something that he wants to purchase. And then he will make comments that I control the money and he doesn\u2019t want to ask permission for large purchases. A specific example, he charged a couple of pairs of running shoes to some credit cards.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:20:54] I got a PayPal line of credit that\u2019s in my name only.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:20:58] Hold on. Can we just start again? Can you just tell me what happened with the shoes?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:21:01] This is tough to admit, but let\u2019s be honest. I hide purchases from her and that\u2019s how she found out about these credit cards. And it\u2019s for the sole purpose that I don\u2019t really have to discuss the purchase with her. I don\u2019t have to, in my mind, get permission. And also in my mind, I\u2019m pushing the problem to later.<\/p>\n<p>And ultimately, in my head, I think I\u2019m going to pay it off before she even really knows about it. But that doesn\u2019t really ever happen. So ultimately, I just have to have a little bit of a come up and I go, yeah, I did this. Sorry, I should have told you. But I do feel a little bit of guilt about it because there\u2019s a mild sense of hiding, of lying, even though I\u2019m not lying necessarily. I\u2019ll tell her what I did later. But it\u2019d be better to be honest and truthful about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:21:52] When you say you\u2019ll tell her later, is that because she finds out about the purchase and then asks you?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:21:58] Yeah, I mean, the shoe show up. The shoes show up and I put them on. And she goes, where did those come from? And I tell her, yeah, hey, I bought some shoes.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:22:09] I don\u2019t recognize that I didn\u2019t charge and I\u2019ll say what was that for? And that will frustrate him, being asked about the purchase.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:22:18] And so as a result, how do you approach money in your relationship now?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:22:23] So I don\u2019t want to start any conflict. And as Jeff very well knows, I\u2019m averse to conflict, so I will avoid it. If it\u2019s potentially something I have a problem with, it would have to be a pretty big problem for me to bring it up. I would just let it go and deal with it financially on my own, in my own mind and in our financial plan make plans to pay it off. There\u2019s a little somewhat like this attitude about money. It\u2019s just like he\u2019ll have an attitude, it\u2019s just money. I\u2019ll make more. And again, it\u2019s not in a reckless sense. He\u2019s actually pretty frugal. So this beginning paints him in a less frugal light. He\u2019s super frugal.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:23:14] Notice what\u2019s happening here. He just admitted to hiding purchases from his wife. And then seconds later, here\u2019s Lisa saying, I don\u2019t want to start a conflict. I just let it go. And even he\u2019s super frugal. She\u2019s not even reacting to what he just said. She\u2019s back in her own story, a story that\u2019s focused on putting Jeff at ease, making Jeff feel comfortable, not rocking the boat. I think if I called Lisa tomorrow and I asked her what she remembers saying after Jeff admitted to hiding purchases, she would not remember. I\u2019m not sure she would even remember this 10 minutes from now. Lisa is in total automatic response mode. As you can see, there are a lot of layers here.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:24:08] How much were those shoes?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:24:08] These were $149 I think. I believe that\u2019s what they were.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:24:16] What do you think is going through my head right now?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:24:18] It\u2019s not that big of a purchase.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:24:20] Mm-hmm, yeah. What else?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:24:24] I would bet you probably think it\u2019s a bit ridiculous to try and hide that kind of thing from your wife.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:24:28] Well, I try not to make judgments. Hearing that your husband is first of all signing up for a PayPal line of credit, what is that? For $149 it makes no fucking sense. That\u2019s absolutely absurd, a PayPal line of credit to buy\u2013 what brand of shoes are those?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:24:50] They\u2019re Altroz. They\u2019re really nice.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit:] 24:52] I don\u2019t even know what that is. But I really don\u2019t give a shit. He\u2019s showing me red shoes. Oh my god. They\u2019re like red, just some kind of athletic shoes. They\u2019re orange. I was trying to do you a favor.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:25:05] They\u2019re incredible.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi: 25:08] No, they\u2019re awful. Also, who the hell opens up a line of credit to buy shoes? This is actually a great example of how people\u2019s psychology can lead them to make extremely peculiar money decisions. There is no reason on planet Earth to open up a line of credit for shoes. But Jeff is avoiding. And he does not understand money. So he will use any technique he can to avoid learning about money and having honest conversations with Lisa. I suspect there\u2019s a lot more beneath Jeff\u2019s behavior. Also notice that we\u2019re hearing a lot from Jeff. But I\u2019m wondering, how does this example make Lisa feel?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:25:52] Honestly, I was really mad when I found out about these.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:25:56] Oh, you were mad?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:25:57] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:25:57] How did that manifest itself when you were mad?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:26:01] Jeff didn\u2019t feel it at all. I just stood and burned inside. It\u2019s irritating. So it points back to the fact that he won\u2019t discuss our finances with me. If he\u2019s uncomfortable or dissatisfied with something or unhappy about something, he\u2019s very assertive and very vocal about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:26:26] You realized this technique, right?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:26:30] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:26:30] He may not even realize it, but that is a technique. People do things for a reason. We\u2019ve all seen these videos on Instagram. I saw one today. This dog got injured in his little paw. He was limping. And so everyone was giving him more treats. Now the dog\u2019s healed. And anytime he wants a treat, he starts limping. In many ways, we do the same thing as humans. We find what works and then we double down on it.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:26:58] I\u2019m learning that she feels a sense of, I don\u2019t think abandonment is the right word, but a sense of loneliness, aloneness, her against the world. She made a comment a couple of weeks ago that if she screws up with any of this, she\u2019s afraid I\u2019m going to give her all of the blame. And I can\u2019t say that she\u2019s wrong. I would love to say she\u2019s absolutely wrong, but I have absolved myself of any responsibility of making a mistake. It\u2019s a big deal to Lisa. So even though we\u2019re picking on this one specific item, that\u2019s not the real heart of the problem that she has. She feels very alone in the operations of our finances.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:27:47] Yeah, so again, yeah, correct. That\u2019s just a small scenario. But it\u2019s so much bigger because it\u2019s somewhat disheartening and kills the dream of\u2013 it leaves me like, well, what should I do? I think this is going to be great for us. And he doesn\u2019t want to talk about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:28:08] We\u2019ve established that Jeff is uninterested in money. He\u2019s unbothered by money and he does not want to talk about it at all. We\u2019ve also noticed that he usually gets his way. Where do you think he might have picked up these attitudes and behaviors from? Jeff, what happened in your childhood with money? Talk to me about your parents.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:28:10] Oh, there was never enough. There was never enough money. My parents split up when I was very young, and their fights were always about child support, always about not having enough money.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:28:45] Who said what?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:28:47] My mother never got money from my father. The money was late. The money wasn\u2019t that much in the first place. But he never wanted to pay it. He\u2019d show up in a new car and child support hadn\u2019t been paid in six months. It was those kinds of conversations around money.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:29:06] Why do you think that he didn\u2019t pay the child support and then showed up in a new car?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:29:18] I can\u2019t honestly say what was the thought process behind? I screw the ex-wife and screwed the kids. I\u2019m going to go get a car. I don\u2019t know. I never went to restaurants with my mom and my stepfather because we never had any real money. When we go over to his house and now we\u2019re going to restaurants, I love restaurants. Lisa will tell you to this day I love a good restaurant.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:29:43] What do you love about them?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:29:45] Service. I love good service.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:29:48] So when you went to your dad\u2019s house, what did it feel like?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:29:53] It felt like going to another world like I were in another world where you had money.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:29:59] And money meant what?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:30:02] You got what you wanted. You got what you wanted.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:30:08] And then when you went back to your mom\u2019s house?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:30:10] There was a sense of loss. You go back and there\u2019s\u2013 and looking back, huge amounts of respect, huge amounts of respect for how she had to work and scrap and fight for all of that stuff. But yeah, I fell back on 12, 10, 9, 11, 12, and at that age range, and I\u2019m going backward, this sucks. You don\u2019t have any candor when you\u2019re young. And like, this sucks.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:30:40] How did your mom talk about money?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:30:42] It was disappearing fast. It was never there and disappearing fast.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:30:48] You remember any phrases?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:30:53] We don\u2019t have enough. We can\u2019t afford it. We don\u2019t have it. No. Yeah, that was the primaries.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:31:03] And so when you would go back to your dad\u2019s, and he would have the car and the restaurants and the nice things, again, what message do you think that he was sending to your mom?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:31:20] I think he was giving her the finger. Now they broke up in a very bad way. And I never knew about this when I was younger, obviously. But there was some cheating and infidelity. There was some serious bad feelings in there that I didn\u2019t understand or know about at the time. Yeah, I\u2019ve had lots of opportunities to look back. I got divorced, I have a daughter, I\u2019ve paid child support. I\u2019ve paid a clock. I\u2019ve always supported my daughter. I\u2019ve visited my daughter. I\u2019ve bought her things and haven\u2019t taken them out of the child support or anything. There hasn\u2019t been returned trips to court.<\/p>\n<p>I think the result of it is when that marriage failed. I did all the things I thought my dad should have done. And I think I went over and above in that space. I still pay for things. And she\u2019s now over 18. I don\u2019t have any legal responsibility to pay for anything as of today and I\u2019ll still cover things, I still slide money here and there to take care of her. So that\u2019s what I think I came out of that with.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:32:28] What other lessons have you taken away? Think about what your dad did, the way he treated money.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:32:38] So it\u2019s kind of a mirror of my situation with Lisa in the sense that the\u2013 I haven\u2019t thought about this, but it\u2019s the same thing that we\u2019re doing. Unfortunately, I never thought about it. But he went made the money and always made more money and always made more money and always made more money. He had $400,000 a year in the \u201980s and \u201990s. And the two wives he had or stepmoms both of them were responsible for the spending and the paying of the bills and the spending of that money. And he just delivered the bag of money to the table. And then he went back out and made more of it. And I think that\u2019s probably why I think the way I do about this stuff now that I\u2019m thinking about it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:33:32] It\u2019s pretty interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:33:34] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:33:34] What does it make you think as you make that connection for the first time?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:33:38] I honestly don\u2019t know. I haven\u2019t really thought about it before. Really, I\u2019ve never really thought about it before. It\u2019s the same thing. It\u2019s like, I like the cars. I like the money, though my key difference is I make sure that the people around me don\u2019t suffer. And I don\u2019t like the responsibility of managing the money.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:34:01] Out of curiosity, if they don\u2019t suffer, then why did Lisa ask to speak to me?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:34:07] She\u2019s suffering, so I\u2019m doing something wrong.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:34:11] Can you rephrase that again for me? This time, let\u2019s make it accurate. I do the same things as he did. The only difference is?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:34:25] I\u2019m doing the same things he did. The only difference is now I\u2019m placing the burden of managing my finances on Lisa, and I\u2019m giving her no support in that space. So I\u2019m making her suffer.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:34:42] Any difference from what he did?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:34:47] Probably not. If I really think about it, probably not.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:34:52] I appreciate you being honest. It can\u2019t be easy, especially recognizing it for the first time.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:34:57] I certainly I never thought about that.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:35:00] Even in that example, you can see how Jeff used a variety of techniques to avoid confronting the real lesson. And that lesson is that he\u2019s doing exactly what his dad did. He circled around the point, he admitted to part of his culpability, but not to all of it. And he spun around using all these clever phrases like, I\u2019m doing the same thing my dad did, but the only difference is, I\u2019m not making the people around me suffer when Lisa is very obviously suffering.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff plays a lot of games. It\u2019s easy to admit to the knucklehead stuff, like buying $150 pair of shoes. But that\u2019s just on the surface. Jeff is comfortable on the surface. He talks and jokes, he goes in circles. I\u2019m sure it\u2019s charming to the people around him. But I\u2019m not really entertained by this. If you boil down what he just said into plain English, he\u2019s lying to Lisa. He\u2019s avoiding talking about it. And he\u2019s doing the same thing his dad did while hurting Lisa in the process. That is not okay.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:36:05] That makes a lot of sense. I have seen the correlation of his attitude with money that he can always make more and connect that to the way his father handled money. And I\u2019ve heard stories about his stepmoms, but I also never really\u2013 I think they were a lot\u2013 and he gave me the credit that they were a lot more irresponsible with money and that he\u2019s fortunate in that I\u2019m not irresponsible with it. So that\u2019s certainly a key difference. But I also had not really put those together.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:36:42] And so hearing that, what does it make you feel?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:36:45] It\u2019s a little bit negative because\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:36:53] Can you give me a different word? Negative like what? Use the word so I can understand it.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:36:59] I feel bad for what he endured growing up. I feel bad that he\u2019s just made that connection right at this moment. It\u2019s a very strong word, but there\u2019s some financial infidelity in there clearly. And so it also makes me feel uncomfortable and scared a little bit. I\u2019ve dealt with financial infidelity in my past, and so some of my concern and my reaching out is because I want to fix it here.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:37:51] We\u2019ve made some pretty good progress reverse engineering Jeff\u2019s money mindsets. But if you caught that, I asked Lisa, how she felt about this. And her response was to tell me how bad she feels for Jeff. Another clear pattern here. Lisa is taking on more than just the basic money management day to day. She\u2019s taking on a whole another burden. It\u2019s much deeper than that. What was money like for you growing up?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:38:18] I don\u2019t remember hearing my parents talk about money. I can tell you from experience when my dad was worried about money because he would drink and stay up all night and play super loud music and just isolate. And I take after my mom in that I won\u2019t confront things. I don\u2019t want to talk negatively about situations or people or things and so\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:38:50] Because?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:38:52] Because it will hurt people\u2019s feelings that will cause confrontation.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:38:59] And that would result in?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:39:03] Discomfort.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:04] For?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:39:05] Me?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:06] No.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:39:07] For her?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:08] For them.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:39:09] For them.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:11] You don\u2019t want to cause discomfort for them. You don\u2019t care. If you\u2019re uncomfortable, you take on the discomfort, don\u2019t you?]<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:39:20]<\/p>\n<p>Yes. Actually that\u2019s pretty accurate. And how I\u2019m actually feeling throughout this call is that I can feel Jeff\u2019s discomfort. This feel really uncomfortable conversation for him, you calling him out, him having this realization. I can feel his discomfort and I don\u2019t like it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:40] This have been twice now. I\u2019ve asked you, how do you feel about this? And do you know what your response has been?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:39:44] I start talking about his feelings.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:39:46] Correct. I\u2019m not interested in how you feel about him as much as how you feel. Some people take on the burden of others so much that they lose themselves in the process. Does Lisa even know what she really wants anymore? If she doesn\u2019t know what she wants, then how can she expect to be clear about what she wants with money, what she wants in a relationship, how she wants the two of them to build a rich life together? Listen to this. What are you getting out of this? If Jeff is being extremely, as you call it assertive, he called it aggressive, he\u2019s getting control over what he wants. And Lisa, if you quote, \u201cstew,\u201d what do you get out of that?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:40:35] I get nothing.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:40:39] No, you get something. Think really hard. Think back to your mom. What did she teach you?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:40:47] To keep the peace.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:40:50] Mm-hmm. So when you stew?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:40:52] I\u2019m just keeping the peace. Keeping discomfort with me and not allowing anyone else to feel discomfort.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:41:02] That\u2019s right. You get to feel angry, disappointed, frustrated, whatever it may be. In some ways, you may even start to thrive on those feelings, maybe feeling righteous about, oh my gosh, why doesn\u2019t anyone else understand this? But the one thing you won\u2019t do is what?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:41:28] Confront the other person. Give them the discomfort.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:41:33] Yeah. Can I use a different phrase?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:41:34] Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:41:34] Share your feelings with them.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:41:37] Yes. That\u2019s very accurate. Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:41:41] You don\u2019t have to confront. Confront is a very loaded term. It suggests you\u2019re going to go up there and my fists are balled up, and I\u2019m just going to tell him how I feel. No. Sometimes we can just share our feelings. You two share anything positive? You ever have a great day at work or something good happens and you go, oh, my God. I got to tell you this awesome thing happened. You ever do that?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:42:02] Yes. But so this is\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:42:04] One of us does.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:42:05] Really? Really interesting because I\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:42:07] This is such an interesting reaction. Oh my god. Can I just tell you what I just observed here? I ask a very simple question, you two ever talk about anything fun, anything nice? And I see Jeff\u2019s face light up. He goes one of us does. I assume he\u2019s talking about himself. And then Lisa goes, yes, but, and she already starts to qualify. I don\u2019t even know what she\u2019s going to say. What is this?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:42:07] This is a problem I\u2019m working on separate from our finances in that I am trying to be better about sharing. I can\u2019t even express what I want. I have so much trouble just telling even my husband I want this.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:42:52] Okay. First of all, it\u2019s not separate from your finances. It is inextricably tied.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:42:57] Which is why it came to you, Ramit. I know that you can help me put it all together.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:43:02] Well, we\u2019re doing it together right now. Let\u2019s keep going. Are you talking to other people getting some help for this? It\u2019s a pretty deep-seated issue.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:43:09] Maybe once.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:43:11] How about after this, I suggest that the two of you separately go talk to a therapist. I think that would be really valuable for you.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:43:21] Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:43:23] There are a lot of deep issues here. What really made me recommend therapy, especially individual therapy is Lisa\u2019s inability to ask for what she wants, and Jeff\u2019s techniques that take specific advantage of that vulnerability. This is really unhealthy. And a therapist would be able to work with her and perhaps them over a long period of time to untangle these issues. As a reminder, one of my goals is to de-stigmatize getting help, whether it\u2019s from buying a book or hiring a coach, or of course, seeing a therapist. Can we refresh and reframe the way you talk about money?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:44:04] Yeah, we should. I don\u2019t know why I have a problem with it. I honestly don\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:44:09] You don\u2019t? I do.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:44:10] Okay, why? Please tell me because I have a tough time with this. I have a hard time claiming which is earned in her lifetime as mine, though I don\u2019t have a problem sharing mine with her in the deepest of my soul. I don\u2019t have any problem.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:44:27] You don\u2019t have a problem with it until you want something. That\u2019s a problem. Let\u2019s get honest about the problems first of all. You can\u2019t present yourself to yourself as this virtuous soul who then hides purchases.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:44:43] True. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:44:45] Lisa, can you reconcile wanting to be in control, but also wanting your partner to be involved? If you two are in the car, one of you is driving, one of you is in control, you\u2019re not sharing the steering wheel, so do you think it\u2019s possible for you to be in control, but for Jeff to be involved in the money?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:45:06] Yes, I can be in control and he can be involved, and it would take some of the burden off of me to feel completely responsible for it so that I know whatever decision we\u2019ve made, we\u2019ve made it together. And good or bad, we made it together and it\u2019s less pressure on me to make it work.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:45:35] That\u2019s what you want. You want less pressure, you want to share the responsibility. Am I hearing you right?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:45:40] Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:45:41] This is really starting to take the dynamic that you have created grooves around and change it. And I think the beautiful part is you can change it to whatever you want. It\u2019s fascinating to watch as the two of you come to some of these deep realizations, and I just love watching the dumbstruck look on your face. I love it because it tells me you\u2019re really digesting this. This stuff is deep.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:46:08] Jeff and Lisa both had a totally dumbstruck look on their face. No more jokes, no more spinning, they\u2019re really starting to grasp how complex their communication challenges are and how deep these issues go. They need to get more help.] What I want to do now is turn back to their settlement and work through the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>These numbers quickly become very surprising. Chet, your friendly neighborhood financial advisor, comes in and tells you, I can help you. We have a sophisticated algorithm, and blah, blah. I have all my partners at work. We constantly monitor the market, some bullshit. And you go okay, cool. You sent him what? 500,000?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:46:49] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:46:50] I saw the PDF you sent me. He took his fee schedule, which by the way is fucking hilarious.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:46:56] Crazy, yeah.]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:46:58] Just so everybody knows, I\u2019m looking at this fee schedule. The assets 0 to 400,000 have a 1.75% on the first $400,000. That\u2019s outrageous. Next, from 400 to 750k 1.25. Let me explain what\u2019s going on here. The firm makes money by charging investors a percentage of their portfolio. The more you invest with them, the lower their fees. For example, between 0 to $400,000, they charge 1.75%. That is astronomical. Absurd. That is ridiculous. For comparison, that\u2019s like charging you $500 for a bag of popcorn. Even paying 1% AUM is outrageous. 1.75% is truly ripping you off. I\u2019m going to show you why. Oh, what a nice decreasing ladder, you fucks. And then 750 to a million is 1%. And then from 10 million to 25 million is 0.5%.<\/p>\n<p>First of all, I love the audacity. I don\u2019t love them. Actually, I think that I\u2019ll meet them in hell. But I love the audacity that actually takes something that is totally screwing mom and pop and actually makes them think they are getting a favor out of it. \u201cYou know what? As your money grows, we\u2019re actually going to charge you less. So we have our incentives totally aligned. We just want to help you grow your money and keep it safe. And as you make money, we make a little money.\u201d Fuck off. So on this page, page 1, Chet wrote 0.9% family rate. That\u2019s another way of saying I\u2019m totally screwing you, but I\u2019m going to make you think that it\u2019s doing you a favor, just so everybody knows how these financial advisors work.<\/p>\n<p>So I looked at the investments that this person put you in, they\u2019re dogshit. One of the funds\u2013 you don\u2019t even know this, but one of the funds that you\u2019re in for $13,000 has a 1% fee on it. So not only is your advisor making money with your 0.9% family rate, but he\u2019s also getting a cut through some of the investments that he\u2019s putting you in. That\u2019s how Wall Street makes tons of money off mo and po. Mo and po don\u2019t want to read I Will Teach You To Be Rich for a weekend and learn how to do it themselves, so they get taken to the cleaners.<\/p>\n<p>Now, shall we go over and just look at how some of these numbers add up? Lisa, you log into your apps every day. You\u2019re tracking these unknown $150 purchases. Sometimes you tell your family, we can\u2019t go out to eat at a restaurant because money is tight. If you put a million dollars with this guy and let\u2019s just say it\u2019s 0.9% for your family rate. Over 25 years, how much do you think you will pay in fees total?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:50:04] I don\u2019t know. If you gave me five minutes, I could probably try to run a calculation.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:50:06] Just guess.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:50:11] $50,000.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:50:12] That\u2019s a good guess. So you think $50,000 in fees over the next 25 years total in exchange for this person who I\u2019m calling Chet to manage your money.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:50:25] Okay. Maybe I would up it a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:50:28] Go ahead. What do you want up it to?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:50:30] 100. It could go to even 100.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:50:33] Cool. 100K for 25 years of work. And if you found out that were true, how would you feel about it?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:50:42] I\u2019d be pissed.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:50:43] Well, I would want to see it against the returns, and then maybe I\u2019d feel better about it. But 100K is a lot.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:50:49] It\u2019s over 25 years.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:50:51] You\u2019re right, it\u2019s over 25 years.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:50:52] So what do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:50:54] And if he takes it from the million to six, then what\u2019s 100? Not to be disrespectful, but 100K to quadruple it or whatever seems fair.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:51:08] That\u2019d average out to be about 4,000 per year. Would you like me to tell you what the number really is?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:51:18] Yes, because I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:51:23] It\u2019s about a million dollars. It\u2019s like 40,000 a year in fees. Did you know you paid 40,000 this year? You just don\u2019t know it yet. It\u2019s going to come out on the back end.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:51:35] Oh, is it more because I\u2019ve already\u2013 yes, I\u2019ve seen the 40,000 not there anymore.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:51:40] Well, that\u2019s because of the market.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:51:42] I know.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:51:45] $40,000 in fees this year?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:51:46] Yeah, let me explain what I mean by that. So a million dollars over 25 years is how much you\u2019ll pay this advisor. Now, if you divide that, a million over 20\u2013 it\u2019s actually $40,000 average per year. So\u2013]<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:52:04] I don\u2019t mean to cut you off? Is that straight fees or is that the loss I take on the money coming out of the investment in the first place, that straight fees?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:52:12] What does that mean? Both yes to the same question.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:52:14] You\u2019re not figuring in that if I had left the $40,000 in the market, it would have grown. It\u2019s straight fees. It\u2019s like that $40,000, I\u2019m really just surprised by the number that 1% is $40,000 a year in fees for 25 years. I have to sit down with a calculator and figure that out.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:52:35] No, what you need to do is read my book, not peruse it because I cover this in my book.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:52:30] I will.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:52:40] Chapter 6.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:52:40] I absolutely will, chapter 6.]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:52:43] This fucking book is 10 bucks.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:52:45] We have it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:52:45] Yes, I know you have it. It\u2019s right there. Okay, I love it. This is why I\u2019m never afraid to promote my own material because I\u2019ll save you a million dollars for the price of a $10 book and my rich life system. No, I\u2019m going to sell that all day. I want you to take control of your money. Now whether you need the help of a financial advisor who\u2019s going to charge you an hourly fee, that\u2019s fine. Whether you want to do it on your own, you want to get help from rich life system, whatever you choose, but right now, what you\u2019ve got is costing you more than you can even imagine.<\/p>\n<p>Now, if you want to have a little fun, you can text this guy, you can say, hey, by the way, how do you charge us? I\u2019m really curious. Can you explain the fee structure again? And then his intent are going to go up because he\u2019ll go, oh, shit, did they read that book, I Will Teach You Be Rich? Anybody call their financial advisor and fire him live on the podcast?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:53:08] Let\u2019s do it. That\u2019d be my fantasy, Jesus. A million dollars.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:53:43] So a million dollars is the sum of the fees. It\u2019s not the fee plus the loss of the return?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:53:51] What?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:53:53] So like, if I\u2019m paying him the $4,000 a year, that 4,000 isn\u2019t going into an investment where it\u2019s going to create a return? Does that make sense?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:54:04] It\u2019s going into Chet\u2019s fucking pocket. That\u2019s why Chet drives a BMW. And it is a loss, but it\u2019s your loss.] That\u2019s a million dollars that could be in your pocket. Now think about it. What are the things that you focus on when it comes to your money? You\u2019re tracking shoes, you\u2019re tracking eating out. Are you tracking groceries?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:54:30] Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:54:31] You\u2019re tracking these things, and you probably should. It\u2019s good to keep your eye on the ball. But if you keep your money here, and if you were to put just a million dollars in this account, just for simplicity, over 25 years, you would pay out roughly a million dollars in fees and you would never even know it.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:54:52] Yeah, I didn\u2019t know about this 1% on the\u2013<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:54:56] It\u2019s outrageous.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:54:57] I did. I knew about it. I didn\u2019t think it\u2019s subtle this big. That\u2019s why I\u2019m really surprised by the finances because I looked at it and I went 1% to manage our money and be smart and grow it and I thought I was buying into his sales pitch.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:55:10] Look at him wrap his head. Look at him wrap his head.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:55:12] I\u2019m in the same boat. I wrap my head five minutes ago.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:55:15] It\u2019s not someone who\u2019s mowing your lawn for 100 bucks. It\u2019s not there. Let me explain why 1% got that reaction from you. It\u2019s not an accident. Every mo and po in America says the exact damn same thing. Why? It\u2019s been field tested and engineered to get exactly that reaction. 1%? And I have a whole team that\u2019s looking out for me. And if something goes wrong, I have one person I can call with questions, and then every quarter they send me my financial update, and they walk me up. Fuck off. That\u2019s the reason they position it like that. You\u2019re a sales guy. You know that\u2019s why they did it. And they get that reaction. And there\u2019s only a few people who actually tell you what\u2019s really going on.<\/p>\n<p>Now, if you were to go, hey, it\u2019s actually worth $100 to pay somebody mow my lawn or change my oil, I got no problem with it. Fact, you want to pay a premium provider 500 bucks? God bless. But 100% of the time when I show people the numbers\u2013 excuse me, not 100%, 99% of the time I show people the numbers, they had no clue whatsoever. So, Lisa, hearing this, how do you feel?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:56:31] Closed out. I want to move it. Where do I put it?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:56:39] We\u2019ll talk about that.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:56:40] Let me control it.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:56:44] That is funny, though. You love control, but you delegated control of the most expensive thing in your life. Why is that?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:56:49] So the concept of having that check written to me, I have no idea. It was a crazy experience. I think like you\u2019re saying, I did not know what to do with it. So it seems to make sense that this provider has been helping my family member and so he\u2019s the professional.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:57:17] He\u2019s been ripping your mom off too.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:57:19] Yeah, it makes me upset. How am I going to convince her to get out of there?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:57:25] That\u2019s a whole different\u2013 you\u2019re probably not telling the truth. Here\u2019s the thing. I have no problem if you wanted to hire a financial advisor who charges an hourly fee, or a flat fee, or project fee, I don\u2019t even mind if they\u2019re a premium advisor, they charge a lot. I\u2019ve hired a financial advisor myself to do a second set of eyes on my portfolio because everybody needs somebody to help them out once in a while, but I paid an hourly fee. I was happy to pay. I paid full rate and it was good.<\/p>\n<p>If you truly want somebody to help set this up for you, you could go out and find a fee-only planner. You do not want to pay someone who\u2019s charging you a percentage, full stop. There are no exceptions. Or you can manage it yourself. I talk about how to do it in the rich life system program that I launched, step by step, how to set up your allocation. And most of this is pretty simple stuff. You have a pretty straightforward time horizon, etc., but you do have some complications in terms of legal issues, which I want to talk about in a second. But looking at your portfolio that he set you up in, I mean, you could basically do the same thing with a single target date fund.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:58:49] And that\u2019s what I was thinking. So even the first fee I could see was 400. And I\u2019ve been interested as the months have gone on, I really want to dig into and see what\u2019s going on. And after reading your book, it seems like I could probably do the same thing.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [00:59:07] You could definitely do the same thing. You actually get better results. You know why? It\u2019s all about costs. So in investing, there\u2019s no secret guy, particularly not this jackass Chet, who has some secret access to investments. It\u2019s all about costs. Now, when you go you eat sushi, if you pay like 300 bucks for your alma kossei, you\u2019re going to get better sushi, most likely, you\u2019re going to get better service, you\u2019re going to get cool stoneware at your table.<\/p>\n<p>But in investing, it\u2019s not like that. You want to manage the cost carefully because those costs are zero-sum. They\u2019re either coming out of your pocket or somebody else\u2019s. It\u2019s usually yours. So you want to minimize those costs and keep as much of your money as possible, particularly on a percentage basis and especially when you have a large net worth like yours. 1% is a huge amount.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [01:00:01] That is the one question I asked, the first meeting we had with them is how do you charge us? How much money do you make? And he explained it. And I feel so stupid, especially now sitting back this far hearing it\u2019s $40,000 because it didn\u2019t sound like $40,000 when I was sitting there talking to him. It didn\u2019t sound like a million dollars when I was talking to him.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:00:18] What a surprise.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [01:00:19] It\u2019s like nothing.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:00:21] Well, what do you think so? The sales pitch has been engineered.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [01:00:25] It\u2019s the sales pitch.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:00:26] So it\u2019s the same thing when you go to a car dealership and they talk about the monthly payment. And actually, you\u2019re actually going to make money buying this car. And I\u2019ve seen it, there\u2019s some guys on YouTube, they show how these car sales guys do it. And it sounds really good unless you know a couple of key things that they neglect or skew. That\u2019s the same thing here. It\u2019s just multiplied by a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p>Okay, by the way, that does not assume you add any more money to your investments. You to make pretty good money. If you were to add $10,000 a year, $20,000 a year, the amount you would lose in fees is way more. You actually can\u2019t even fathom it.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [01:01:04] We\u2019re just paying our fees by adding money.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:01:06] Let me just do the calculation for you real quick. How much would you say you might add on average year to your portfolio?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:01:12] We like to get at least another 12 grand a year in there.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:01:17] So if you were to add $12,000 per year, you would pay roughly $80,000 additional in fees over those 25 years, 25 years only. The longer it goes, the more you pay because it\u2019s 1% compounded on a larger amount.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [01:01:39] So the first seven years it\u2019s just fees.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:01:42] It\u2019s like a mortgage. So I think you get the point. I don\u2019t want to beat a dead horse here. Get out of this guy\u2019s thing.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [01:01:51] You said legal ramifications. So if we should [inaudible 01:01:55] the guy do we get sued? What do you mean by legal?<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:01:56] Here\u2019s what you need to know. Lisa, I want to talk to you about this. So you\u2019ve got this settlement came to you. This is your second marriage, correct?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:02:03] Yes.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:02:04] Have you two discussed a postnup?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:02:07] No.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:02:08] Okay, I think you should. I think you should talk to a lawyer. I think you both should. And it is a second marriage. And you can have the money be used for both of you. However, in the case of a separation, Lisa, I think that should be your money. And you can even clarify what happens if you do get separated. You\u2019ve probably known people who have done prenups. This is a huge life-changing amount of money. At the very least, you should have a conversation with a lawyer. Fair enough?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:02:40] Fair enough.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:02:41] Okay. I say that as somebody who signed a prenup with my wife. And it\u2019s actually the origin of this podcast because our conversations were so difficult when we had that. I was like, how the hell are other people talking about money? And so when I hear somebody on a second marriage in their 40s who has a seven-figure settlement, $1.2 million, I go, in the worst case, if this marriage does not succeed, you need to protect yourself. And of course, you two need to come to an arrangement together. Cool?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:03:13] Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:03:14] That\u2019s really important. That\u2019s going to be some of your homework, Lisa. And, Jeff, I would encourage you, separately to speak with an attorney on your own as well. You will need to if you go forward with that. So right now we\u2019ve already saved you a million dollars on this call. That\u2019s pretty good. We found it in the calculation.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:03:32] Live long, Ramit.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:03:33] Thank you. Okay, I think they got the message about this financial advisor. What should they do now? With the money itself and with this context that they\u2019re wealthy, that something has changed in their life and they should probably acknowledge.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:03:51] We never got your answer on what you would do with a $1.275 million settlement.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi: [01:04:00] Great question.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [00:\u00a0 [01:04:02] Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:04:01] I would sign a postnup. That would be the first thing I would do. In that postnup I would agree on terms. And that would be, look, hey, I want to take part of the money that was created for the IRS payoff. Working with Jeff, I want to pay that off immediately from this. That\u2019s what it was designated for. Let\u2019s do that. I want to take my 25K or whatever it is, I want to pay that off.<\/p>\n<p>I want to put this money in an account. I want to invest it and I want to keep it separate. And then I want to have some money that could be designated jointly. And that should be a discussion between the two of you. If you two separate, you discuss terms with your attorney on what happens. But second marriage, huge windfall. These are things that\u2019s no-brainer. That\u2019s the first thing I would do.<\/p>\n<p>Next, I would get rid of this financial advisor, and I would join the rich life system. I would work through it together, each week, the two of you going through the program together and coming with an agenda and saying, oh, my gosh, I learned this. What did he mean by that? Oh, we should do this exercise together. Wow, let\u2019s try that tool that\u2019s in the fourth playbook and put our investment money and see where could we simulate it to work. That would be a way to come together.<\/p>\n<p>And then personally, if I were you, I would start it off on my own, I would go slow, you\u2019re in no rush. I would start to dollar cost average money in. And if at a certain point, we go, numbers are getting pretty big, I\u2019m getting a little nervous, I might hire a financial advisor for a few hours, and just be like, hey, can you look over our stuff? Are we on the right track? Great.<\/p>\n<p>Next, I would take a look at your conscious spending plan. I noticed that the incomes you\u2019re paying yourselves, like you\u2019re losing money every month. It\u2019s not quite working right. And so I would rationalize those numbers and start getting more honest. You have to pay yourself enough in your own business that you two can afford to eat and just the basic stuff. That\u2019s what I would do.<\/p>\n<p>Now, because of this settlement, it\u2019s possible that you might ease off of some of your long-term investments, it\u2019s possible. I\u2019m not saying you have to. It would obviously be smart to keep aggressively contributing, particularly because, Jeff, you\u2019re 49, so you really want to be investing aggressively. But you\u2019ve also bought yourself a little breathing room.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:06:47]<\/p>\n<p>What we learned is that most people focus on $3 questions and ignore the $30,000 questions, for Jeff and Lisa situation, the $1 million questions. It\u2019s much easier to log into apps and track your target spending than to learn how investment fees work and realize you\u2019re being ripped off for over a million dollars. This is the point of my book and all of my programs, to show you the actual things you should focus on, whether you\u2019re managing your money, starting a business or finding a dream job, and to ignore the tiny questions that don\u2019t mean anything anyway.<\/p>\n<p>You do not want to be 89 years old and look back on your life and see that you logged into your Wells Fargo app 46,000 times. Actually, if you\u2019re 89 and still using Wells Fargo, just look upwards, ask the Lord to take you away. You\u2019re done. You took a wrong turn somewhere in life, your time on this planet is over. Lisa and Jeff are going to plug their numbers into the conscious spending plan and be blown away with what they can do. They have an extra million dollars. By the way, if you want to get your own conscious spending plan, go to iwt.com\/episode52. As for Jeff and Lisa, my question for them now is what can they do to start talking about money in a more healthy way?<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:08:09] For the two of you, you have a lot of stuff to do to just simplify your finances. So what are you going to save? If you actually calculate it out, what are you going to, quote, \u201close\u201d from paying it off early? What are we talking about? Like a few 1000 bucks?<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:08:25] Less than I\u2019m paying my financial planner.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:08:27] Yeah, for sure. You already saved a million bucks in a couple hours here. So in my suggestion, I was looking over your finances and I go, there\u2019s too much complication here. It\u2019s way too complicated. So I like the idea of prioritizing simplicity. Now, sometimes you might lose a little. Technically, you could probably save a few thousand bucks, depending on the interest rate, whatever. But what do you care? You\u2019re millionaires.<\/p>\n<p>So I actually love the idea of the two of you having a very simple financial system that you can deeply understand. In order to change, if you guys really want to live a rich life, just start thinking and acting with money totally differently. That\u2019s why we spent the majority of this call talking about the way that you think about money, the way that you talk about money. And so it would be a tragedy, in my opinion, for us to finish this call, and you learned a couple of cool things and how to have better conversations, but you go right back to thinking about money and acting with money like you used to. That actually did not get you the kind of results you want.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:09:31] Yeah, and it needs to be a new day.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [00:\u00a0 [01:09:35]\u00a0There you go.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:09:35] The symbolism is so important. Closing accounts that aren\u2019t serving you anymore, creating this breakfast routine the first Saturday of every month, paying off past things. This is how I would do it because symbolism really matters with money. You should not be fighting and hiding money. And in order for that to happen, I would have a series of conversations together. What do you need to feel good about money? You want to have 300 bucks a month for just your own spending, no questions asked? Cool. Let\u2019s make that happen. 300? 400? Let\u2019s figure out the numbers. And I would set up a structure that brings out the best for both of you rather than that brings out the worst.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:10:21] That makes sense. I think I can do that. I want to do that.<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [01:10:25] Yeah, I can do that.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:10:26] How do you feel about that? Do you want to do that with me?<\/p>\n<p>Jeff:\u00a0 [01:10:29] It\u2019s certainly better than what I\u2019ve been doing. So yes, I do want to do that.<\/p>\n<p>Lisa:\u00a0 [01:10:33] I would really love it if you would do that with me.<\/p>\n<p>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0 [01:10:37] That\u2019s awesome. That\u2019s what I was hoping to hear. I really enjoyed speaking with Jeff and Lisa. After listening to this episode, it would be easy to label Jeff as the villain. I think the story is more complicated than that. The truth is that we all have invisible scripts around money, often created in childhood and they guide our behavior today, decades later. Jeff came on the show. He didn\u2019t avoid it. How many of us can say that we\u2019ve taken a step like that.<\/p>\n<p>I received follow-up letters from both of them. To read the full letters, you can go to iwt.com\/followups. Here\u2019s what Jeff wrote, \u201cIn the days since the call with you, I needed a lot of thinking to process the experience and the feelings it created. I was cold and angry after the call, mostly angry at myself, angry at the truths about where I put her and us, angry that I did not take the time to fully understand what I was getting into coming on your podcast so I set myself up for pitfalls that would be obvious and avoidable to a regular listener. I was angry how I came out 100% on the side of wrong, regardless of all the rights I think I bring to our life together. It was self-centered thinking. After a few days, I think I worked through it. Regardless of how I felt about the experience with the show, right is right and I owed her far more support than she was getting. I committed to move ahead with what we\u2019d agreed to on the show. I committed to help her however she felt help was needed. I love her. I value her. I don\u2019t want her to feel otherwise. Saturday morning, I reminded her of our Saturday meeting, hoping to show her that I cared about keeping the appointment. We kept that meeting. We stayed focused and productive. Neither one letter followed. It was an equal dialogue. In her mind, this meeting was definitely a milestone and she expressed it she was very happy about this. I was too. I enjoyed the conversation and the sharing. My previous beliefs about financial conversations often turning contentious were proven wrong. And I think that we can have normal even keeled conversations about finances.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I really appreciate Jeff\u2019s candor here. These conversations are not easy, especially at first. And I\u2019m happy to hear that he worked through those emotions to create the beginning of a positive change in that relationship. This is quite remarkable. What\u2019s even more remarkable is Lisa\u2019s letter, which I want you to read. You can get it at iwt.com\/followups.<\/p>\n<p>Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You To Be Rich. I\u2019m Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven\u2019t read,\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Will-Teach-You-Rich-Second-ebook\/dp\/B07GNXPP4P\/ref=sr_1_1?crid=IIPMUACPE789&amp;keywords=i+will+teach+you+to+be+rich&amp;qid=1660071460&amp;s=books&amp;sprefix=i+will+teach+y%2Cstripbooks%2C332&amp;sr=1-1\">I Will Teach You To Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy<\/a>. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach You To Be Rich system into your personal finances.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Lisa and Jeff are in their forties and have a blended household. They had about a $300k net worth before they were awarded a $1.275M settlement in January of this year. What\u2019s important isn\u2019t the details of the settlement, but that they don\u2019t know what to do with it. She doesn\u2019t trust him\u2014and for good [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-119071","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Vika DD.NYC\u00ae","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119071","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=119071"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119071\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=119071"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=119071"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}