{"id":119086,"date":"2022-10-25T16:49:37","date_gmt":"2022-10-25T20:49:37","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=119086"},"modified":"2025-03-28T16:51:59","modified_gmt":"2025-03-28T20:51:59","slug":"66-beth-john","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/66-beth-john\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 66. \u201cI\u2019m marrying him in 1 month\u2014but our finances are terrifying me\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/4HXzHtWOv64t9rOfYgRyru?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Beth and John are worth about $800k combined. They came to me a month before their wedding\u2014in fact, by the time this goes live, they\u2019re husband and wife (hopefully). The trouble is that they\u2019ve never really talked about money, that she\u2019s afraid of being a deadbeat partner\u2026 and they both want a prenup.<\/p>\n<p>Now, it\u2019s a little too late for a prenup, but we can help them in other ways.<\/p>\n<p>The big day, looming large in their lives, has revealed some serious issues. Beth wants to\u2014NEEDS to\u2014leave her job, a role that\u2019s costing her mental health dearly. But she\u2019s terrified she\u2019ll just be a financial burden to John. Will Beth and John be able to find common ground before they start their marriage? Listen in to find out.<\/p>\n<h2>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Transcript<\/h2>\n<p><u><a href=\"https:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1WTdwziP1Z3pcXCEQtQQQVTVfOmhrL071\/view?usp=sharing\">Download<\/a><a href=\"https:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1WTdwziP1Z3pcXCEQtQQQVTVfOmhrL071\/view?usp=sharing\">\u00a0the full transcript PDF<\/a><\/u><\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:03] I\u2019ve worked really hard to try to keep up, but still I\u2019m really afraid that it still won\u2019t be good enough. I\u2019m worried that John would come to resent me someday. I feel bad when John has to pay for stuff because I can\u2019t. I didn\u2019t want to be a burden.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:30] Is this tough to talk about?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:33] Yeah, avoidance is a huge tactic for me and has been a previous financial tactic for me for a while. John did try. We would talk about finances. I just didn\u2019t have the ability to comprehend. A lot of times it also felt really overwhelming to be coming from a place of former scarcity to now feeling like I have to learn a bunch of new rules.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:01:02] You do.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Beth does have to learn new rules. She\u2019s been in scarcity mode for years, and she and John came to me one month before their wedding day because they are not on the same page with their finances. They\u2019re worth almost $800,000 combined. And Beth is struggling to adapt to this new reality. They\u2019re stuck on their wedding budget. They\u2019re stuck on getting a prenup, and they\u2019re stuck on whether or not Beth should leave her toxic job. But as we discuss, these issues go much deeper. I\u2019m Ramit Sethi, and this is I Will Teach You to Be Rich.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Beth, can you think of a time in the last month where the two of you were not on the same financial page?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:01:50] Yeah, in the last 30 days, we probably had some disconnect about wedding spending.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:01:56] How do you decide how much you\u2019re going to spend on your wedding?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:00] That depends on who you ask.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:02] Let\u2019s start with you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:04] I feel $20,000 is a reasonable amount to spend on the kind of wedding we\u2019re expecting to have.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:11] And where did you come up with that number?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:13] I looked at national averages for where we live.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:16] Mh-hmm. Did you make a spreadsheet of this or what?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:20] No, I don\u2019t make the spreadsheets in our household.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:25] Oh, who does?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:26] John is our spreadsheet maker.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:28] Okay. Interesting. And so when you looked at the average prices, just out of curiosity, do you make the average income in your area?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:39] Yes, I\u2019d probably make a little bit above average, but I am not a big breadwinner. I don\u2019t make a ton of money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:46] And what about John?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:48] John makes more than me. I think John makes more than average for our area.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:55] Okay. Who\u2019s paying for the wedding?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:58] It\u2019s a combination of us, and then my parents donated. They offered to give us money, which was really surprising because they offered us a very generous amount to put towards the wedding.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:07] How much?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:08] $20,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:10] Oh, really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:11] Yeah, they said we could have that money and we could do whatever we wanted with it.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:16] Observation number one, Beth comes into this call stressed out about how they will pay for their wedding, which she\u2019s budgeted at $20,000. That is a seemingly random number that we\u2019re going to get to in just a second even though her parents gifted her that same amount to use on the wedding.<\/p>\n<p>This is a perfect example of how your feelings about money are highly uncorrelated to the amount of money you\u2019ve got in the bank. She budgeted $20,000. She got $20,000, but she still feels stressed out.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>So, John, when you started thinking about the wedding and the numbers behind it, what was your approach?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:57] I deferred to Beth to set the budget.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:00] Wait a minute. You deferred the budget to her. She came back and told you $20,000, and then what happened? You said okay?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:08] Yeah. Yeah, we did have a conversation about that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:12] How\u2019d that conversation go?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:14] He said, if you have a magic number, like if 37 was the magic number, I\u2019d feel comfortable spending. I don\u2019t know where did you come up with that number?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:25] I just pick numbers out of the air.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:29] Is that a recurring theme, John?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:32] Somewhat. She was still pretty hesitant to go above that just because she\u2019s stressed about the budget and I really had this $20k number in my head and that\u2019s what we should stay under.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:50] I only make 50k. It was very much like, 20,000 is a lot, but 30, oh, my God. Now we\u2019re talking over half of my yearly income for a one-day party.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:05] Beth, I\u2019m trying to understand if the 20k is actually based in any numbers or any reason, or is it just that you feel you should spend a maximum of 20k?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:18] I guess it\u2019s really based on\u2013 it\u2019s not like, oh, this must be it. It\u2019s more of a feeling like we\u2019re over the 20k mark. I guess for me it was such an escalation. It was like $20,000. And then it was like, okay, now it\u2019s 30, where I guess I\u2019m not looking back and being, oh yeah, we did sit down and look at how quickly expenses are adding up. And that\u2019s when John was, \u201cOkay, the magic number is 37. Let\u2019s make it 37.\u201d And I was like, \u201cThat\u2019s so much money.\u201d We can\u2019t do that.\u201d where we can. It\u2019s not like we don\u2019t have the money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:53] What is the amount that the wedding is currently budgeted at? A lot of quiet on this call. All of a sudden it got very quiet in here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:05] We don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:06] Whoa. You just said, \u201cAll right, it\u2019s not 20. It\u2019s not 37.\u201d The hell with it. Whatever it ends up being, that\u2019s what it\u2019s going to be. Wow. A lot of nods around the room.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:17] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:17] What? How did that happen, Beth?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:21] I just didn\u2019t have the bandwidth to worry about it anymore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:25] Does it feel better or worse?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:27] It feels better. I\u2019m nervous about after and looking back, but I got to the point where people were asking, \u201cHow\u2019s wedding planning going?\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cThis is the worst thing I\u2019ve ever done.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:43] [Narration]<\/p>\n<p>This is not a healthy relationship with money. First, they picked an arbitrary number for the wedding and they felt stressed. Then, even though they were gifted $20,000, they still felt guilty about money. And finally, when the stress got too much, they stopped paying attention to how much their wedding cost altogether. They actually have no idea how much they\u2019re spending, and they feel good about ignoring it.<\/p>\n<p>This is a big red flag. A wedding is just the first of hundreds of large financial decisions you\u2019ll make in your lifetime. Ignoring it sets a dangerous precedent for how they\u2019ll handle future financial decisions together.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:07:26] It\u2019s been really stressful.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:07:29] Why?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:07:30] I was so unhappy that it was just like, I\u2019m not enjoying this time. So by just accepting that we\u2019re going to be okay, we\u2019ve got the money. Well, I think we\u2019ve got the money to do it and it\u2019s either try to enjoy this time while I have it or be miserable and reflect back on this not being the joyous time it should be.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:07:55] John, how do you feel about this wedding process in terms of finances?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:01] I wish the beginning was a little more easier, especially because Beth had a lot of stress and it\u2019s me trying to pull her along into my mindset of, hey, we\u2019re going to need these things. We need a venue. We need a caterer. We need a deejay. And as long as we don\u2019t go too crazy over the top, it doesn\u2019t really matter what the actual spend is. We\u2019ve got the money. Let\u2019s just spend it and not worry about it anymore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:40] I don\u2019t think you get that to you spending more can reduce stress. But to Beth, having an undefined amount of money to spend is actually what causes the stress. To Beth, just having this 20k alone is a lot of money, as she put it. And then to be even contemplating going over, that is the bad zone for her. And so when you say, \u201cOh, well, we could spend more and it won\u2019t make you stressed,\u201d you don\u2019t realize that spending $20,001 is actually stressful to her.<\/p>\n<p>And then in the end, both of you are going, \u201cAh, I don\u2019t even want to pay attention to this. Let\u2019s just finish this wedding and we\u2019ll deal with this other stuff later.\u201d When is the wedding?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:32] October 15th.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:35] Less than a month away.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:36] Oh, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:36] Yeah, we\u2019re 30 days out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:38] [Narration]<\/p>\n<p>I remember getting engaged to my wife, and I asked a lot of my married friends for advice. And some of the comments came back and there was the eye roll and going, \u201cOh, boy, it\u2019s going to be a year. Oh, boy, you\u2019re in for it.\u201d And then I remember one of my friends said, \u201cThis is going to be the best year of your life. You can choose to have fun or you can choose to roll your eyes.\u201d And they said, \u201cJust choose to have a great time. You get to do this together.\u201d And I loved it. I chose to make it the best year of my life. My wife and I had a blast planning the wedding. Yeah, sure. It was stressful some of the time, but we chose to make it a positive experience.<\/p>\n<p>The way I hear Beth and John talking is reactive, and it\u2019s a bad precedent. It\u2019s like spilling a bunch of orange juice and letting it sit on the floor overnight. You do it once, you wake up and you go, hey, that wasn\u2019t so bad. Now you have sticky floors for the rest of your life.<\/p>\n<p>Notice the phrases she uses\u2013 nervous, scared, the worst thing she\u2019s ever done. These are not the words of what should be one of the best experiences of their life. We also heard that Beth only thinks they have the money for this, now unbudgeted wedding. But John sounds very confident, even casual about it. Let\u2019s explore that contrast.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:07] There was a lot of uncertainty about money, as John was saying at the start of planning. John\u2019s like, \u201cWhoa, I\u2019ve got money.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t know where it is. I don\u2019t know what it looks like.\u201d I really think that I felt we were average people, so it would make sense to spend the average amount of money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:27] Can I ask you a question, Beth? What is your net worth? I mean, the two of you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:32] $800,000. I normally don\u2019t look at a number this big, so I\u2019m double-checking where my decimal points are, honestly.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:40] You want to look at it? I want you to feel confident about it. It\u2019s your money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:45] Well, it\u2019s our combined net worth, but most of it is John\u2019s. And so it doesn\u2019t feel right to say that it\u2019s my money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:59] We don\u2019t have like the\u2013 I don\u2019t know what it is in English terms. We don\u2019t have who this is. It\u2019s your, the two of yours together once you\u2019re married. That\u2019s what I\u2019m asking, what is your combined net worth?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:12:17] Yeah, almost $800,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:12:22] How\u2019s that feel to say out loud?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:12:26] Surreal. Yeah, pretty surreal because that\u2019s not a number I thought I would get to.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:12:35] And, Beth, you mentioned that you make 50k. John, what\u2019s your income?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:12:40] I\u2019m around 80 and that fluctuates. I do have some stocks. That is part of my total compensation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:12:50] Got it. You have a considerable amount of money saved up out of roughly 800k, about 700k of it is yours. Over 700k, is that fair to say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:01] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:01] You have $800,000 in a net worth. And how old are you both?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:08] Turning 40 in a couple of weeks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:11] Mh-hmm. Beth?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:12] I am 35.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:14] Okay. So you\u2019re 35 and 40. You live in the Midwest and you have $800,000 net worth. Does that sound average to you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:24] No, but that net worth is newer to me than it has ever been for John.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:30] I totally agree. John, you\u2019ve been slowly accumulating this money over a long period of time. You\u2019ve gotten used to it, you\u2019ve lived with it, thought about it, felt it. Okay. Beth, when was the first time you discovered John had over $700,000?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:51] Monday.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:52] Whoa. What do you think he had before?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:56] I knew that he had stock. I know that he works for a big tech company. I know that he gets RSUses. I was aware of\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:14:11] Did you know the number?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:14:12] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:14:13] John, man, you\u2019re less than a month away from getting married and your fiance is just now learning you have $700,000 plus in the bank.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:14:25] I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s 100% accurate. I know that Beth and I have talked a lot about finances, especially when we were combining things. One of the things that I didn\u2019t do well was expressly come to her with exact figures.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:14:46] [Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Lots of passive behavior here from John. He gives Beth loose guidelines for the wedding budget, which stresses her out. He doesn\u2019t expressly come to her with exact figures about his net worth, so she only learns he has $700,000 a few days before they\u2019re getting married. The details matter. And they also help us understand why Beth feels in the dark about money. I\u2019m not saying this is John\u2019s fault, but I do want to highlight the dynamics of this relationship.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:18] I told her about the different buckets about where my money was like, I have this much in savings, I\u2019ve got this much in my retirement fund, I\u2019ve got this much in company stock, I\u2019ve got another brokerage account with other index fund investments.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:39] And, John, how do you think she received that when you told her?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:45] I don\u2019t think that it really connected to her and it\u2019s something that I\u2019ve tried to bring up and clarify for her a couple of times, but because I\u2019m not keeping a very fine eye on it, I\u2019ve got, oh, there\u2019s 50k here and 20k here, and I think there might be $100,000 over here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:08] Okay. So listen, first of all, John, I actually empathize with you a lot because I don\u2019t want to keep a fine level of detail eye on my own personal finances either, believe it or not. I like the broad strokes. I have a few key rules that are really important to me, like savings rate, asset allocation, etc. When I met my wife, she was like, \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u201d Look, we need to know. And I realized she\u2019s right. First of all, it\u2019s good for me. But it\u2019s necessary for us. We need to get a better handle on this.<\/p>\n<p>You\u2019ve actually done quite well, and at 40, you\u2019ve got over $700,000 with an $80,000 salary. That\u2019s fantastic. But it seems the root of some of these issues is Beth just has no idea about the numbers. And just going and giving her 10,000 different numbers\u2013 man, if I made 50k and I had not accumulated this kind of money, it would be very overwhelming to hear someone say 50k here, 100k there. There\u2019s probably $20,000 in the couch. I\u2019d be like, \u201cWhat are you talking about?\u201d Beth?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:19] John did try. Every time we make a trip across state, we would talk about finances when we were both in a position of being in the car and being together. He really did try. I just didn\u2019t have the ability to comprehend. And I guess I could have and probably should have looked into some of the stuff that he was telling me about, but a lot of times it also felt really overwhelming to be coming from a place of former scarcity to now feeling like I have to learn a bunch of new rules.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:59] You do.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>This is quite revealing. I\u2019m glad Beth is sharing that John has tried to share details of their finances. And she\u2019s reflecting on how she didn\u2019t take responsibility. But she says she has this, quote, \u201cfeeling\u201d that she has to learn a bunch of new rules. She does. She\u2019s about to get married and step into a considerably different socioeconomic status.<\/p>\n<p>That means she\u2019ll have to learn a different language and a different way of thinking. It\u2019s like walking into a fine dining restaurant for the first time. Of course, the waitstaff should answer any questions you have, and ideally, they should make you feel comfortable. But it\u2019s your responsibility to take an active role in the experience.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:18:44] I think that going into it and looking back on how the wedding planning has gone, I think I let Beth down in that I didn\u2019t keep track of the details or give her enough financial direction or where the, I guess, arbitrary bar should be.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:09] That\u2019s a pretty accurate representation of how sometimes we talk about stuff like, well, it doesn\u2019t matter what we spend. And I\u2019ll be like, \u201cWell, it kind of does to me.\u201d I can\u2019t make an informed decision without a person giving me a second side of it. If there\u2019s no negotiation or discussion, it\u2019s really hard to figure out where we\u2019re going to land as a team.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:38] Let\u2019s say renovating a house. I don\u2019t know anything about it. And if I bring over some general contractor and I go, \u201cAll right. How long is it going to take to do the bathroom and the kitchen?\u201d And they go, \u201cAh, no big deal. We could do a pretty fast.\u201d What does that mean? Is that a year? Is that a day? What are we talking about here? I have no sense of scale. And so I need them to be a little bit clearer with me and to present some trade-offs.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cOkay, look, if you want the kitchen to look like this, this\u2019ll take a month. If you want to look like that, that\u2019ll take three months. If you want some Italian marble and we get delayed it might take us nine months.\u201d \u201cOh, now I understand the different options here and now I can choose accordingly.\u201d Beth, how would that have felt to have had that experience during the wedding budgeting?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:20:35] It would have been different because there was a lot of, \u201cOh, I\u2019m doing this alone.\u201d And John was like, \u201cI trust you.\u201d Well, but do I trust myself?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:20:54] Yes. John needs to adjust his strategy for when and how he\u2019s having these conversations. But Beth needs to take responsibility for learning about money. We start to talk about how they plan their wedding, and then I discover another twist. They actually did come up with a very detailed plan for the wedding. They just didn\u2019t follow it.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:21:16] I think Beth forgot about that scary pink book that she got with the wedding planning manual, with the checklists and everything. One of the first things that we sat down to do was come up with our\u2013 it was the wedding thesis or\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:21:36] Wedding mission statement.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:21:37] Love it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:21:38] The wedding mission statement. Together, I think it went something like we wanted our family and friends to all be there. We wanted it to be a really great time with cocktails, food, and dancing. And it was important to me that it be no stress.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:03] Okay. Well, first of all, amazing that you two did that exercise. And what a beautiful mission statement. I\u2019m just wondering, after going through that, when you faced the decision, like spending an extra x thousand dollars on glasses, how did that mission statement help you make that decision or did it not?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:25] I think it should have helped us make that decision, but it got lost in the shuffle on all of the other decisions that we were making.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:35] Guys, you did the hard work. You came up with this beautiful mission statement and then you totally abandon it. If it were me and I had your mission statement, and we had come up with a general budget, Beth said 20k. And how much did these glasses cost?<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]`<\/p>\n<p>Having a few key principles helps you navigate through the thousands of financial decisions you\u2019ll have to make. This is why I created my money rules. You can just Google for Ramit\u2019s money rules to see what mine are. In Beth and John\u2019s case, they actually came up with a great set of values, but when it came down to the actual financial decisions, they abandoned the values and went down into the weeds.<\/p>\n<p>If you find yourself debating the price of glasses or detergent at Target, it\u2019s helpful to zoom back up to your conscious spending plan and your money rules. Let\u2019s jump into their conscious spending plan. You can download your own copy at iwt.com\/episode66.<\/p>\n<p>[interview]<\/p>\n<p>So you currently have a net worth of $795,000. I\u2019m describing all these terms jointly. Okay. Looks like your gross income it\u2019s about $6,000 for John and roughly $4,000 a month for Beth. A combined gross income of about $10,000 a month, or roughly 120k a year. All that accurate?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:24:06] Mh-hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:24:06] Cool. Your investments, it says 8%. I don\u2019t really believe that. I think you\u2019re both investing a lot more than 8%. You\u2019ve got all these RSUs and stuff like that. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:24:19] Yeah, I think the investment section of the spending plan, we just took the amount that was coming out of our net pay and that didn\u2019t really factor in what we\u2019re putting in for our 401k or any gross retirement investment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:24:37] How much is going in the ballpark per month? It\u2019s a lot, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:24:43] Yeah. For my retirement, 10% of my gross is going into 401k. I\u2019m also maxing out an HSA and contributing the max to a Roth that comes out of net.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:24:57] So how much total? It\u2019s like many thousands of dollars, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:02] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:03] Okay. And what about for you, Beth?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:07] $300 a month goes into my Roth. That\u2019s what I\u2019m doing. My work does do 12%.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:18] 12% what?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:18] Of my money a year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:24] They match it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:26] No, they just give me 12%.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:28] They give you 12% in retirement?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:32] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:32] Okay. Wow. That\u2019s great. So that\u2019s $5,000 plus per year. It\u2019s roughly 400 bucks a month. Okay, so you\u2019re doing 400 a month from that plus 300 of your own.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:49] Yes. I guess I didn\u2019t think about the money that comes from work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:55] Got to count it. It\u2019s money. Got to count it. You seemed you were a bit sheepish about only doing $300 a month, which I don\u2019t mind, but it\u2019s actually $700 a month. That\u2019s pretty good. What do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:11] I guess I don\u2019t really think about it because I have not been thinking about the work contribution at all lately because I\u2019m considering not working there anymore. So I really don\u2019t think about it. That\u2019s pretty much where my net worth is, is the money I didn\u2019t think about getting from my 403b for work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:35] Beth, can I just say something?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:37] Mh-hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:38] It\u2019s time to think about it. Do you notice any patterns between the wedding planning budget and the way you are treating your retirement right now?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:49] Oh yeah. Avoidance is a huge tactic for me and has been a previous financial tactic for me for a while. It\u2019s been only the last four years that I\u2019ve really changed that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:27:04] Who is the one who wanted to be on this podcast?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:27:07] I wanted to be on the podcast.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:27:09] Oh, that\u2019s pretty cool. That\u2019s the opposite of avoidance, to come on here and talk about this stuff. How did you get the courage to do that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:27:17] As we were talking about combining finances, John is the person who recommended that I read your book x number of years ago. It became apparent that there were things that we needed to do to be successful together. So listening to you talk to other couples, it made sense that I should be applying. I\u2019m trying not to be that way anymore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:27:46] In order for us to make sure that you don\u2019t feel that way, we have to build your confidence, your competence, and your communication. So let\u2019s do that. The first thing I want to say from the conference perspective is you\u2019re investing $8,000 a year right now. That is quite good. That\u2019s more than a lot of people making way more money than you are investing. I think that\u2019s impressive.<\/p>\n<p>So what do I always say on the podcast? Take the win. Take the win. In fact, everybody, a round of applause for Beth. Amazing. Beth, you too. I want to see those hands. I don\u2019t care if it\u2019s a little cheesy and theatrical. I think you\u2019re doing a great job investing right now, and I think you should know that.<\/p>\n<p>In terms of competence, when you start looking at this stuff, the old Beth was, I don\u2019t look at this stuff. And whenever you put on those eyeglasses, you\u2019re putting on the lenses of how little can I spend and I want to play defense instead of offense. Does this sound familiar, Beth? Yeah, she\u2019s nodding. We can actually shift. We can build your competence so that you know your numbers and that you can start really owning what it\u2019s like to use money in a productive way.<\/p>\n<p>And, Beth, I want you to be open to learning about these right now because this is your new chapter in life. You\u2019re getting married to somebody who\u2019s going to bring you to a different level of personal finance. And obviously, it\u2019s a privilege and it\u2019s a responsibility. And my dream for the two of you is that you can both accept the gift that you\u2019ve been given and you can thrive in it. It doesn\u2019t mean you have to spend $1,000,000 on shirts or whatever, but it does mean you need to be realistic. Financially you\u2019re doing well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:29:43] I guess I just have to get more confident with the numbers.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:29:46] Yeah. You\u2019re getting married and you\u2019re about to walk into a relationship where the two of you jointly have almost $1,000,000. Yes. You need to get comfortable with these numbers.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:01] I know everybody brings their earnings to the table. I guess when it comes to money, it doesn\u2019t feel equitable and I\u2019m worried about\u2013 not that I think John would do this, but I\u2019m worried about there being resentment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:16] Who would resent who?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:19] I\u2019m worried that John would come to resent me someday.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:25] For what?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:26] For not making as much, I don\u2019t know, being a deadbeat. I know he doesn\u2019t think of me that way. But like\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:35] Why don\u2019t we just ask him? Because sometimes we create fears that don\u2019t even exist. But, hey, maybe he thinks you are a deadbeat. Why don\u2019t we find out right now before you\u2019re married? John, is your fiance and soon-to-be wife in less than 30 days a deadbeat?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:48] No. No, she is not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:51] I was like, this guy better answer pretty quick. No, right off the bat he had the answer. Okay, fantastic. So, Beth, hey, maybe it\u2019s possible at some point in the future that feelings change. I want to be realistic. But as of today, would you agree that John does not think you\u2019re a deadbeat and does not have any plans to think you\u2019re a deadbeat in the future?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:15] Yeah, that\u2019s fair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:17] [Narration]<\/p>\n<p>My philosophy is that life is hard enough. Why create more problems than we already have? Sometimes the things we fear are just in our heads. So if we have the chance to find out if they\u2019re actually true, why not ask? Beth worries John might think she\u2019s a deadbeat, so ask him. Now at least you have some information.<\/p>\n<p>Will that change how she feels overnight? Of course not. But at least she can start to calibrate if her feelings are leading her astray or not. This is covered in CBT or Cognitive Behavioural Therapy a lot more. So if you struggle with catastrophizing and fears, I would recommend talking to a CBT therapist.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>So you have basically $800,000 in net worth now. Right now it\u2019s his and her money. When you get married, what is the plan?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:12] So we have some shared and some split.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:15] Mh-hmm.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:16] And that\u2019s normally where the shared checking account is what normally covers our fixed costs. Sometimes John covers extra fixed costs just because of where our credit card is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:29] John, do you contribute proportionally?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:32] My contribution is a little higher. I contribute about 26, 28% of my net to the joint account, and Beth puts around 20 to 23% of her net into the joint.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:47] How did you all decide on that number?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:51] It just felt right at the time.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:56] John\u2019s vagueness is almost overwhelming, and it doesn\u2019t help.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:02] That\u2019s felt a lot of stress around, \u201cOh, no, I\u2019m a deadbeat. I\u2019m not contributing enough or as much as you are. I don\u2019t think it is enough.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:10] Okay, hold on. What\u2019s up with this deadbeat comment, Beth? You got a deadbeat in your family or something?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:17] No, no, I don\u2019t know. But I probably have been the deadbeat in relationship. I\u2019ve been in multiple relationships with people where one of us is the breadwinner, one of us isn\u2019t. And in almost all of those relationships, there have been times when I\u2019m barely making ends meet with somebody who\u2019s much more financially well off. And as the relationship went on, they became really resentful of having to cover more costs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:45] So is this where the fear comes from of your soon-to-be husband, eventually thinking of you as a deadbeat? Okay. So can I ask you a couple of questions about that? I respect that that\u2019s how you feel. I\u2019m curious about, how have you responded to that. What kind of things have you done to prevent that from happening?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:34:14] Things that I have done to prevent that feeling of being a deadbeat. When we first started to see each other, John invited me on a big family vacation and I didn\u2019t think I could afford it, and he offered to pay for me to go and I would not let him. I saved to make sure that I could cover my half because I didn\u2019t want to feel like dead weight. I didn\u2019t want to be a burden, so I\u2019ve worked really hard to try to carry or try to keep up with joint expenses, joint needs, even though I know\u2013 like I feel bad when John has to pay for stuff because I can\u2019t.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:35:08] Is this tough to talk about?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:35:11] Yeah, it\u2019s tough because I do feel like I\u2019ve made a lot of progress financially, especially since knowing John. In the time that we\u2019ve known each other, I\u2019ve gone from having debt to being debt free and really just shifting my whole financial lens. It\u2019s been a lot of work, but I still am really afraid that one day he\u2019ll look at me and he\u2019ll be like, \u201cOh my God, what am I doing?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:35:45] What would it take for you to not feel afraid?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:35:50] I don\u2019t know yet, but maybe just feeling more aware. Me not knowing where the money has been was a big thing, which is why sitting down and doing the conscious spending plan, I felt so much better afterward because I was like, \u201cThis is what it all looks like.\u201d So maybe just having more knowledge.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:36:14] I think that\u2019s part of it. That is that basic competence, but I think it\u2019s more than that because in the past, John tried to explain some of the numbers, right? And you resisted it. So even though there was an attempt to share the information and even now you have the information in front of you. Is it changing your feelings?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:36:38] Not really. I mean\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:36:40] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:36:41] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:36:42] Yeah, it\u2019s kind of hard to admit that because we\u2019re taught in America that if you give people the right information, then they can make an informed decision. We treat it like it\u2019s religion that as if giving someone information is going to change their mind. Information hardly ever changes people\u2019s minds. Information alone is not persuasive.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>We have a deep belief that we are rational, almost robotic in the way we think. Give people the right information and they will make an informed decision. Really? So why do most people in America eat unhealthily and save less than 5% of their income? The information is out there.<\/p>\n<p>It turns out that information alone is not very persuasive at all. That\u2019s why my material always includes the element of psychology, which is vastly underappreciated in behavioral change. Speaking of psychology, Beth and John have been wanting to ask me about a prenup.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:37:48] We have started our process of doing a pre-nup and we are obviously reusing the sheet. We are not financially the same beginning and I guess do you have any advice for people who are trying to do the thing? Every time we talk to anybody we know, any of our peers, any of our friends, no one has done a prenup.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:24] Why don\u2019t we start, take it step by step? We did talk about in terms of if we separate after one year, five years, 20 years, etc. And those we discussed it and it was also discussed between lawyers. And it was easy at first and then it got pretty hard. Fortunately, it\u2019s unlikely that two of you will die, like in the next year. It certainly should be something that you go and do. You could do it at the same time or not. But yeah, we definitely have those conversations.<\/p>\n<p>You guys are getting married in a month, so you\u2019re probably not going to get a prenup done in that amount of time. A lot of people do a postnup. So a postnup is definitely a very strong option for you to do. Getting a prenup done in one month without even having lawyers, I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s possible, but it\u2019d be very difficult. So how would both of you feel about a postnup?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:39:25] I mean, I assume it would not be a big\u2013 I mean, we\u2019re both 100% we\u2019re doing a prenup. John has a lawyer and he\u2019s gone through the first round of writing stuff out. And I think he\u2019s received the first draft of his stuff so far.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:39:41] Beth and I just haven\u2019t had time to connect because she doesn\u2019t have bandwidth to go through with me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:39:48] So I totally get that. Can I just say as the person who walked into our relationship with more money, we had discussions about having a prenup and my wife was open to it. But I think, John, one thing I would say, is a prenup important to you? Are you the one who brought it up?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:40:11] No, I think Beth initially brought it up as a good idea because there was such an inequity in our assets.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:40:21] It just seems like it\u2019s becoming more and more clear how much this job is costing you, Beth. To not be able to have this discussion is a serious issue. And to talk about having a prenup and not have the time to do it before a wedding\u2013 you have\u2013 we\u2019re talking about $700,000. It\u2019s pretty serious. So it seems to me that regardless of what choices have been made in the past, that you two have got to find a healthy way to talk about this stuff.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Notice how Beth\u2019s tendency to avoid difficult conversations appears in so many different places. She\u2019s the one who asked for a prenup, but she won\u2019t take the time to review the material even though there are only a month away from being married. She says it\u2019s because of the stress of possibly leaving her job.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:13] It was like, I need to leave my job. I\u2019m worried about us feeling not equitable, especially because we\u2019re about to get married. And then I\u2019m going to leave my job. So I\u2019m really worried about that. And I know that when I come home from work, I don\u2019t have the bandwidth to sit and help. I think I could do a lot more and address some of the issues that we\u2019re letting slide by if I didn\u2019t have to go to work every day.<\/p>\n<p>I don\u2019t think it\u2019s good for me to stay there, but I am scared that it will be a problem and you will see me as a burden. And I\u2019m worried, too, that what I contribute around the house won\u2019t be enough. I\u2019m worried that helping out more won\u2019t make up for the deficit in money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:42:15] John, are you curious what she\u2019s scared of? She mentioned the word afraid, scared. Are you curious?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:42:24] Beth, what specifically is it that you\u2019re scared of?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:42:30] I\u2019m scared of you thinking that I don\u2019t help enough. You are so good at doing so much. You keep the house running and you do everything so well that I\u2019m worried that if I step up, it still won\u2019t be good enough. I\u2019m scared that you will not see me as an equitable partner, even though even you\u2019ve never made it seem you have a problem with it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:01] Beth, I think, given your past relationships, it\u2019s a totally valid fear. I don\u2019t think that it\u2019s where we\u2019re headed. And I certainly don\u2019t feel like that. But what could we do to make it better so that you didn\u2019t feel like that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:22] I think if we were more open talking about it, if I knew\u2013 you would let me know, if I knew that you would come to me and say, \u201cHey, you know what? I\u2019m feeling a little worried\u2013\u201d if I knew that you would come and tell me, I think I would be more reassured. I\u2019m worried you won\u2019t tell me, that you\u2019ll just keep it to yourself and it will fester. And that\u2019s where the resentment would come from.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:55] John, can I ask you a question?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:57] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:58] Are you comfortable with Beth never working again?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:44:04] Yeah. I think so. If Beth didn\u2019t have something that she was really passionate about and it wasn\u2019t her thing, as long as we could make ends meet it is all right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:44:17] That\u2019s my question. Could you make ends meet for the type of life that both of you want?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:44:26] I think probably. I know that we have a lot of travel potentially in our future, and I\u2019m not exactly sure what those trips would cost.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:44:43] Seems kind of an important question, right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:44:47] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:44:48] Beth, where do you stand on this? Do you think that John would be okay with you never working again? I\u2019m extending this, obviously, beyond what you think you\u2019ll take off work. But do you think he would be okay with you never working again?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:00] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:02] How long of a break are you anticipating on needing from work?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:09] Well, I think probably at least three months. I want to look at changing careers completely. I don\u2019t want to go back into the field that I\u2019m in and I need some time to emotionally recuperate from what I\u2019ve been doing. I also don\u2019t know where I want to go next, so I think that three months, six at the high end. If I need to take time and get a part-time job, I\u2019m more than willing to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:45] John, I want to know when you expect for her to get a job. Just because you say it doesn\u2019t mean she has to agree. But are we talking about three years from now? Are we talking about three decades? What are we talking about here?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:59] Generally, I would expect Beth to have another job in a year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:46:07] I would like to definitely have a job for about the year max. I am hopeful. I\u2019m a little nervous, I\u2019ll admit because I am looking at changing completely. But I think that if I can get my mental health under control, I could probably do it in six months.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:46:30] That\u2019s why I wanted to ask about. Sometimes I think I\u2019ve heard a lot of stress and it almost seems we\u2019re walking on eggshells. Or is it that you\u2019re working so many hours?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:46:41] My work is very emotional. I give a lot every day. And that work is often not appreciated. And so I\u2019m burned out, but I\u2019m afraid to leave because I don\u2019t want to be a burden. I\u2019m also afraid that I might never want to go back to work, like if I actually get to feel healthy and good, why would I ever want to go back?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:12] To that job or to any job?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:18] That job for sure. I\u2019m starting to doubt that there\u2019s a job that\u2019s not going to feel like garbage.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:28] Because you\u2019ve only worked in bad jobs?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:32] Lately, yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:34] And how did you learn the skill of finding a job?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:41] Well, I didn\u2019t really learn how to find a job. I came out of grad school in a recession and I just tried to pinpoint what I could do.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:53] And then you scrolled from one job to another.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:55] Yeah, essentially in the same field, doing the same thing. And I\u2019m good at it. It\u2019s nice to be good at what you do, but it\u2019s\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:48:04] Yeah, but that it\u2019s not good for you. And the way you\u2019re talking about it, you basically just rolled from one job to another without being intentional or active in choosing your career. So to jump to the idea that there are no jobs out there that would be good for me really reflects that you haven\u2019t yet build the foundational skills of finding a job that\u2019s your dream job.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:48:34] I tried to start but right now I\u2019m so burned out. I was debating on telling you this or not, but I bought the dream job system a year ago and I can\u2019t get through playbook 2 because I can\u2019t actually think about anything I\u2019d want to do. So I go and I look for the careers and I go on LinkedIn and I look and I search the job titles and nothing makes me feel passionate right now. And that\u2019s why I want to take some time because I want to try to feel passionate about something again.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:49:14] Well, Beth, everyone on this goal wants you to do that. So I think you should hear us all loud and clear, including yourself. There\u2019s no reason for you to be at this job right now. If you can\u2019t think of one job that\u2019s exciting to you, that is a problem.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Okay, listen, I need to tell you all about the dream job program that I have. If you are stuck in a toxic job or if you are being underpaid, or if you just don\u2019t love what you do, this is where you spend eight-plus hours a day. You should be working at a dream job.<\/p>\n<p>The biggest challenge people have is what is my dream job? And most of us have never been taught the process of identifying a dream job and then landing it. We just take what\u2019s given to us. And like Beth, we bounce from job to job. You can change this and you can learn the skill of landing a dream job. I\u2019ve helped a lot of people do this often with five, 10, 15, even $25,000 raises. To learn more about the Find Your Dream Job program, go to iwt.com\/job.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>So can we all agree that it\u2019s time for you to stop this job? Let\u2019s take a vote. We\u2019ll start with the least important person on this call, and we\u2019ll go to the most important person. Number one, me. Least important. Yes, I think you should leave this toxic job. John, what do you think?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:50:35] John is also in agreement to leave the job.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:50:38] And how about the most important person in this decision, Beth?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:50:41] I would feel comfortable putting in my notice when we come back from our honeymoon.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:50:46] That\u2019s two months of soul-destroying work away from now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:50:53] Yeah, that\u2019s too long.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:50:56] Yeah. Why is it that I think your mental health is worth more than you do?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:06] I will because I put really low value on my mental health, obviously.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:11] Yeah. And you put a lot of value on?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:15] Money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:16] Yeah. And the irony is that when you have a lot of money, which you do, you have $800,000, you don\u2019t actually change the way you feel about it at all.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:31] No. No, I guess.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:34] I see this 50 years from now as the first opportunity for the two of you to have really developed a joint vision with money. And it\u2019s training wheels. It\u2019s like, okay, John is over here saying, \u201cIt doesn\u2019t really matter to me. It\u2019s fine. We could pretty much spend anything.\u201d Beth\u2019s over here craving clarity and certainty and saying, \u201cWhat do you mean, anything?\u201d<\/p>\n<p>So I would look at it as training wheels that really exposed some fundamental differences in how we think about money. And if you don\u2019t solve this and make a system for it, you\u2019re going to run into the future problem when it\u2019s taking a vacation, buying another house, having children, and on and on and on.<\/p>\n<p>So there needs to be a deeper connection. There needs to be a lot of pre-work that\u2019s been done about how you both see money. We\u2019ve got to start with that confidence and competence. It just doesn\u2019t make any sense to worry about $3 questions anymore. How does that strike you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:52:40] I think what you said and how you explain it is really concise about the issue. Hearing you say it, I\u2019m like, oh yeah, definitely this makes a lot of sense, especially in what we\u2019ve been seeing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:52:52] Okay. John?<\/p>\n<p><strong>John:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:52:55] Yeah, I would agree with that. It definitely sounds like we need to have clear communication and get on the same page.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:53:09] Talk to me about now. What can you do differently?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Beth:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:53:14] It would be really nice for me first and John\u2019s second. No offense, I love you, but I\u2019m supposed to be putting me first. Come game. I definitely I don\u2019t want to be scared and I don\u2019t want to be worried anymore.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:53:33] You\u2019re about to enter this joint union, which is really serious. It\u2019s a business contract. It\u2019s for the rest of your lives. And the fact that you\u2019re talking to me before you get married means a lot. It really does. And I think the two of you that you\u2019re starting to really take this seriously now.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Beth finally resolves to put in her resignation notice just before the wedding so she\u2019ll come back to finish her last two weeks on a positive note. I want to share an excerpt of the follow-up letter that Beth sent to me. I think it\u2019s quite revealing, and I\u2019d like to encourage you to get the link from the show notes and get both follow-up letters because they are incredibly interesting.<\/p>\n<p>Beth said, \u201cI am surprised about how emotionally raw I felt during and after the call. I felt really alone. Even with my partner there, I felt really under the spotlight. I realized I was avoiding things because I thought they were too hard. And then I was worrying about those same things which I was avoiding.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cI was surprised at how my avoidance showed up time and time again. Even as a child, I was conditioned to avoid difficult situations and to some extent, all women are conditioned to avoid difficult situations. So the fact that I am avoiding hard conversations with my partner and asking him to hold me accountable isn\u2019t fair to him. I feel like I have a lot of personal work to do.<\/p>\n<p>\u201cI\u2019m also surprised and a bit saddened that when I asked for resources, I was rebuffed. I do sincerely want to learn and I was hoping that I could get more help. The internet is full of shitty money advice and while I obviously need to reread Chapter 7, I was hoping to get more solid references.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>I find this letter interesting on so many levels, and there\u2019s more to it in the show notes. First, I think it\u2019s absolutely incredible that Beth showed up and she engaged with this conversation. That cannot have been easy. Second, I\u2019m glad that there is a reason and inciting factor for Beth and John to talk about money because they\u2019re getting married soon.<\/p>\n<p>I did notice that Beth\u2019s avoidance showed up in many ways, including her last paragraph. Asking for more and more resources is simply another mode of avoidance. To put it bluntly, you don\u2019t need ten different books. You need to reread Chapter 7. I know that Beth will continue her therapy\u2013 she mentioned that to me, and I\u2019m very glad to hear that. I\u2019m wishing the best for her and, of course, for John, who in his follow-up letter acknowledges that he has been a bit loose when it comes to talking about money and it\u2019s not serving them.<\/p>\n<p>I have a lot of confidence for Beth and John. I think that they showed up today and had a difficult conversation. I think they know that what they are doing is not working. And I think they both acknowledge that this situation goes much deeper than simply the price of glasses for their wedding. I wish them all the best. And now listen to a preview of next week\u2019s episode.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kacey:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:49] So basically he asks me on a date to go to dinner, and I\u2019m like, \u201cGreat. We get the kids to bed. We leave a little later than we had planned. So the place that he wanted to take me was closed. So we leave the house. Doesn\u2019t even mention the fact that he had invited me to dinner. Just drives to the store. I\u2019m like, I thought we were going to dinner. Well, the place I was going to take you is closed. And the reason that he wanted to go to that place was because we had a buy one get one free, and he had a gift card. So he could take me to dinner and spend $0. Once that option was off the table, dinner, not a word. He didn\u2019t even mention it. He pretended like it wasn\u2019t even said.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:22] And it\u2019s been almost, what? 18 years since you\u2019ve been married? What\u2019s your advice for everyone listening who wants to have a long marriage? What would you tell them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kacey:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:31] Not to ask us. We\u2019re doing it all wrong. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:37] Do you believe that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kacey:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:39] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:40] Really, why?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kacey:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:42] I feel like it\u2019s been 18 years of just hanging on.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:46] Really?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Kacey:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:47] Yeah. So we\u2019re here. We did it. We\u2019re doing it. But\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:51] Gosh, that\u2019s tough to hear.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Jim:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:54] If we continue on this path, in a few short months, we will get to the point where the money will be gone. We won\u2019t have enough.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:<\/strong><strong>\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:05] Thanks for listening to I Will Teach You to Be Rich. I\u2019m Ramit Sethi. Please follow the show on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you haven\u2019t read, I Will Teach You to Be Rich, my book, pick up a copy. You can get it at any bookstore or any library, and it will show you the specific tactics for how to build the I Will Teach You to Be Rich system into your personal finances.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Beth and John are worth about $800k combined. They came to me a month before their wedding\u2014in fact, by the time this goes live, they\u2019re husband and wife (hopefully). The trouble is that they\u2019ve never really talked about money, that she\u2019s afraid of being a deadbeat partner\u2026 and they both want a prenup. Now, it\u2019s [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-119086","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Vika DD.NYC\u00ae","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119086","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=119086"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119086\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=119086"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=119086"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}