{"id":119149,"date":"2023-01-10T16:05:12","date_gmt":"2023-01-10T20:05:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=119149"},"modified":"2025-04-07T10:42:49","modified_gmt":"2025-04-07T14:42:49","slug":"77-tommy-caroline","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/77-tommy-caroline\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 77. \u201cWe have $6.3 million. Why can\u2019t we take a vacation?\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe title=\"\u201cWe have $6.3 million. Why can\u2019t we take a vacation?\u201d\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/28_tXxvRG5U\" width=\"100%\" height=\"400\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/7LoZjJuQcr7TLAhMMKMp37?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>Tommy is 60 and he\u2019s run his own business for more than 30 years. He loves his work and doesn\u2019t plan to stop. Caroline, his wife, is 56 and is retiring from a stressful job in a few months. Together, they\u2019ve amassed over $6M. She\u2019s ready to spend it but Tommy can\u2019t stop saving and investing.<\/p>\n<h2>Tools mentioned in this episode<\/h2>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<h2>Transcript<\/h2>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1tQK8vTizRmg3U_03eFvk2AHPqhBRm5Oc\/view?usp=sharinghttps:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1tQK8vTizRmg3U_03eFvk2AHPqhBRm5Oc\/view?usp=sharinghttps:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1tQK8vTizRmg3U_03eFvk2AHPqhBRm5Oc\/view?usp=sharinghttps:\/\/drive.google.com\/file\/d\/1tQK8vTizRmg3U_03eFvk2AHPqhBRm5Oc\/view?usp=sharing\">Download the full transcript PDF<\/a><\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:02] Every time he sit there and say, \u201cGod, I wish I\u2019d win the lottery.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, we have, and we still wish we could win the lottery.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:12] Each month I\u2019m putting money away. That\u2019s how my mind works. It\u2019s like that\u2019s how you get by shit. Yet I realize there are times that I do feel like I control things too much, and that\u2019s probably a huge downfall for me. And it\u2019s stupid. She\u2019s not doing anything wrong, but this is how I react to myself. I get worked up over stupid ass stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:38] Okay. And do you want that relationship the way it is now, or do you want to change it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:43] I want to change it, but I worry. I worry that if I\u2019m not in control, then\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:48] Well, I didn\u2019t ask about the plan. I just asked if you want to change it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:56] Yeah, a little bit.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:00:57] And that\u2019s probably my biggest fear about retiring is that I\u2019m not going to have my own money anymore. We\u2019re not going to spend any money now because he feels we don\u2019t have the double income. And by the time we can\u2019t spend money when we\u2019re older, I won\u2019t want to travel as much. And we\u2019re saving for a time to live to 100 is what we\u2019re doing. We\u2019re totally saving for time to live to 100. I want to do stuff now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:01:23] [Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Meet Tommy and Caroline. Tommy\u2019s 60. Caroline\u2019s 56. This is their second marriage both of them. And they\u2019ve been married for six years. The reason they came to me is that Tommy is having trouble spending and because Caroline is just about to retire from a very stressful job, this has become a very pressing topic. What are they going to do when he continues to work and she\u2019s retired? She wants to travel. She wants to spend some of that money. He does not.<\/p>\n<p>Now, for everybody listening and watching on YouTube, I want to encourage you to treat this episode like a crystal ball. You have the chance to see into your future and to see what it might look like if you accumulate a bunch of money, but you don\u2019t necessarily know how to spend it. So for those of you listening to the I Will Teach You to Be Rich Podcast, or for those of you watching it on YouTube, I welcome you to this episode of Tommy and Caroline.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:02:30] [Interview]<\/p>\n<p>I need to chill because I think we\u2019re in a really good position. Caroline\u2019s retiring this March, and I\u2019m so excited for her because she\u2019s got a super stressful job. I know we can make it work yet I freak out too much. I freak out when I see all these Amazon purchases and I question why it\u2019s happening.<\/p>\n<p>Perfect example. Caroline decides to buy a pair of headphones that we already have wired pair of headphones. And I know it\u2019s stupid because it\u2019s probably a $20 or $30 purchase, but my mind just says, \u201cHey, we already have it.\u201d I need to let go of that shit. I know I do because she\u2019s doing nothing wrong, nothing. But I get worked up on that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:29] When you say, Tommy, that you freak out, tell me exactly what happened.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:36] Nothing was said to her. But I inside internalized it by saying, why does she do that? There\u2019s no reason for that. I wouldn\u2019t have done that. So why does she do that? And it\u2019s stupid. She\u2019s not doing anything wrong. But this is how I react to myself. I get worked up over stupid ass stuff.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:03:58] Okay. Caroline, do you remember that headphone situation?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:02] Well. Yeah, I could tell because he rolls his eyes or he tries to control the situation. He\u2019ll say, \u201cWe don\u2019t need it.\u201d It\u2019s a good thing I did buy him because we would be in bad shape right now if I did buy because the ones that he had didn\u2019t work.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:17] That\u2019s one. What else?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:04:21] What was something that you just bought that\u2019s, oh, okay, she\u2019s probably going to get mad at me on this. She was telling me on a walk that she just purchased a cool dress that she really liked for an upcoming wedding. I don\u2019t know when that wedding would be, but it\u2019d be a cool dress. Yet she also confided by saying, \u201cYeah. I don\u2019t know if I\u2019ll really be able to wear it or fit into it, or maybe it won\u2019t work for this particular wedding.\u201d And it just blows my mind. Why would you buy something when you don\u2019t know for sure that it\u2019s doable?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:02] It is $600.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:04] And where did that money come from? Which account?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:06] My account.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:07] Your personal account?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:08] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:09] Okay. How long have you been married for?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:12] Five years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:13] Seven years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:14] Well known each other for seven. Married five.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:17] Okay. All right. Do you guys want to get your story straight on how long you\u2019ve been married?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:24] Well, we met in 2013. We got married in 2017.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:27] That\u2019s nine years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:29] No. Well, 2017.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:32] We\u2019ve known each other for nine years. We\u2019ve been married since 2017.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:35] Isn\u2019t that five? Am I doing my math wrong?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:38] It\u2019s five and a half. So almost six years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:05:39] When we got married, it was my opportunity. I was like, \u201cListen, babe, let\u2019s start fresh. Let\u2019s just do our wedding anniversary and birthdays. We can\u2019t do the first date and the first time our parents met.\u201d It was just too much. I said, \u201cLet\u2019s just start fresh.\u201d So maybe that\u2019s what\u2019s going on here. All right. So you\u2019ve been married somewhere in the neighborhood of less than 10 years, whatever the number is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:05] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:06] Okay. Is this a first marriage for both? Second?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:10] Second for both of us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:06:11] Second for both. Okay, great.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>Notice a few things already. When Tommy describes himself as freaking out, I ask him to get really specific with his behavior. A lot of people use the word freaking out to describe all kinds of things. Some people use it to describe losing their temper and screaming at their partners. Other people use the same phrase for the very mundane like they sit in their heads and they wonder, hmm, is that worth it?<\/p>\n<p>I really do not like the phrase \u201cfreaking out.\u201d In my opinion, it is never descriptive, and I find that people who use this phrase tend to start to treat it almost like a comfort blanket. They\u2019ll just shrug and say, \u201cI started to freak out. I can\u2019t help it. I don\u2019t know. That\u2019s just me. I freak out.\u201d No, we\u2019re not going to do that. We\u2019re not going to use inflammatory phrases and then laugh it off as just this quirky little thing. Hahahaha, I just freak out.<\/p>\n<p>No, we\u2019re going to get specific with the attitudes and behaviors that we use when it comes to money. And then we\u2019re going to specifically dig to see if we can rebuild those habits so they can start to serve you.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>So when you initially got married, when was the first time you talked about money in a serious way?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:07:29] Caroline, I\u2019d say the first time we talked about it was we discussed that it\u2019d be beneficial to us to have a joint account and each one of us have our own separate accounts to the accounts that we had. And that way it wouldn\u2019t be, \u201cOh, I\u2019m going to nitpick your spending and vice versa.\u201d But then again, I hardly ever spend anything. And I think so far that\u2019s worked out really well.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:00] Caroline, what do you recall about the first time you talked seriously about money?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:03] Yeah, same thing. We were going to do a joint account and we were going to contribute a certain amount of money. And then if we could afford trips, we\u2019d take trips or stuff like that. So yeah, we definitely had our separate, which I would definitely need.<\/p>\n<p>And that\u2019s probably my biggest fear about retiring is that I\u2019m not going to have my own money anymore. I\u2019m going to have to rely on going into I guess our money, but it\u2019s more Tom contributing than me contributing. So yeah, it\u2019s going to be uncomfortable, probably.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:39] And how far off is retirement for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:41] March 31st.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:43] In a few months? Okay. Wow. Early congratulations. That\u2019s cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:47] Yes. Thank you.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:48] All right. So when you describe your feelings about retirement, are they positive or negative?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:08:57] I\u2019m negative only in the sense that I planned on working longer. It\u2019s just my job\u2019s too stressful. I work for a company that was bought and they got rid of people and made other people do more than they normally have to do, and it\u2019s just too stressful. I can\u2019t do it anymore. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:14] Got you. All right. How would you describe the two of you in terms of money? Caroline, if you had to describe Tommy in a word or two when it comes to money, what words come to mind for you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:28] Conservative.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:30] What else?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:09:31] I don\u2019t want to be mean. I think he\u2019s cheap. If we look at boats and we bought a boat for our lake house, I knew it had to be reasonable. There was no way like, there\u2019s some boats out there that are $60,000 to $100,000, there was no way. Even though we probably could afford it, there\u2019s no way. It\u2019s not even an option.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:06] How much did your boat end up costing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:09] We bought a used boat for $18,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:11] Okay. I don\u2019t know anything about boats. In the grand scheme is cheap, expensive, for your area and your place of living?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:22] I\u2019d say it\u2019s cheap. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:23] All right. Here\u2019s something I want to throw by you or me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:27] Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:27] Here\u2019s a perfect example of how my mind works. I\u2019m always competing with myself. We got gas. I filled up the car the other day. I was so pissed at myself. A couple of miles down the road I could have gotten it for $0.12 less per gallon.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:47] Tommy, this cannot be really happening right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:49] Another incidence\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:50] Come on. Did it involve strawberries? Tell me\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:54] We\u2019re getting Yellowstone. Okay, we want to get the fifth season of Yellowstone.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:58] It\u2019s a good shot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:10:58] I went ahead and bought it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:00] You bought the HD version?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:04] No. Hell, no.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:05] Okay. I never do that either. That\u2019s a waste of money. I\u2019m never going to do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:07] And then I find out my son said, \u201cHey, Daddy. Oh, you already have it on YouTube TV. Why don\u2019t you ask me?\u201d I\u2019m pissed at myself.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:19] For $40, it\u2019s not even worth it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:22] How come you didn\u2019t say something? How come I didn\u2019t check it out? I thought I did. It\u2019s not funny.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:30] How much sleep did you lose over that one, Tommy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:34] I probably did. I know it\u2019s stupid, but that\u2019s how I deal with stupid shit like that.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:11:44] Tommy is doing this interesting thing here where he\u2019s pre-apologizing. Have you noticed it? It\u2019s like walking into the room after you\u2019ve done something and going over the top with your apologies. I know I shouldn\u2019t have done that. I\u2019m terrible. I just can\u2019t do anything right. I\u2019m sorry. One apology is good. Two is better. 10 starts to feel disingenuous.<\/p>\n<p>I want you to be aware of this because it might be a real acknowledgment of contrition or it might be a strategy. Sometimes it\u2019s actually an unconscious strategy that people use, but it is a strategy nonetheless. Personally, I find Tommy really likable, but I\u2019m starting to get a little suspicious of the number of times he\u2019s apologized in just the first few minutes of talking. But really, I have no idea. It\u2019s just a guess right now. Let\u2019s pay attention to what he says and how he says it.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:12:37] And the other thing that may seem wacked, but I just have this feeling I\u2019m going to live a long time, to at least 100. And I\u2019m not saying this as bragging. I just feel I\u2019m going to live a long time. I want to make sure that I don\u2019t have to be a burden to anyone. Never do I want my kids or anyone to worry about me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:12:58] How many kids do you have, Tommy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:00] Three.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:01] All right. How old are they?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:02] Oh, they\u2019re old. They\u2019re 34, 33, and 30.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:07] All right. And how are they doing?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:08] They\u2019re all successful. They\u2019re all fine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:10] Okay, great. Do you anticipate them needing your financial help in their lives?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:18] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:19] Tommy, we spoke on the money coaching call. That was a lot of fun. So you raised your hand and we had a conversation in our money coaching group. Tommy, do you recall the conversation that we had?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:32] That I don\u2019t believe a lot of what you had to say in terms of convincing me that we are good financially. And that\u2019s if I wanted to, I remember talking about I want to take a trip to New Zealand.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:13:53] All right. You got to hear this clip. I was doing a Q&amp;A with my money coaching group members and I saw Tommy\u2019s question and I knew I had to take it. Listening in.<\/p>\n<p>[Playback from Q&amp;A Session]<\/p>\n<p>All right, Tommy, if you are here, Tommy, please unmute, because I really want to talk to you about this question. It\u2019s so good.<br \/>\nTommy says I just turned 60. My wife is retiring this April. I\u2019ve been self-employed for over 34 years. I will continue to work because I enjoy it. My wife has worked her ass off and she wants to spend. I would love to know how much I need to budget each month so I can chill. Can you help me?? Two question marks. Okay. Tommy, please, are you on this call?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:14:32] I\u2019m here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:14:33] Oh, okay. Tommy, my man. First of all, I love that you put save in all caps. It must really be on your mind. Why do you like to save?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:14:44] I don\u2019t know. It\u2019s competitive. It\u2019s like the more I save, the better I\u2019ll be and more prepared. My financial guy says we\u2019re good. And I don\u2019t believe him. He shows me facts that each year it\u2019s going to be worth more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:08] You see it here. You see the math here. You trust your guy. But here you don\u2019t really believe it. Is that correct?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:17] Hell, no.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:17] But I did notice you said this thing about my wife has worked her ass off and she wants to spend. And what does she want to spend on?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:25] She does not spend a lot. She really doesn\u2019t. She\u2019s very good. But I just\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:30] Oh, wait. Not spending a lot means you\u2019re good. Did I catch that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:36] Well, no, she really\u2013 I know, I know. But what if she starts doing that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:42] Keep going. What if she starts doing it? And then what happens? Like, what if she starts spending a little bit, and then she trips and falls and start spending $50,000 a month? Any concern about that happening?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:15:58] Oh, yeah. No, not that much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:01] How much then?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:04] I don\u2019t know. I\u2019m embarrassed to say that I got to keep saving.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:07] I talked to so many people who are in this same situation and they have $500,000, 5 million, 13 million, and they still cannot bring themselves to spend.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:20] I told my group I\u2019d like to go to New Zealand.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:22] Oh, what\u2019s there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:26] The world\u2019s highest bungee jump.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:29] Oh, my. Okay. Amazing. That is terrifying to me. You are healthy. You have the money, you have the time because you work and you seem to have a flexible schedule. Is there anything stopping you from doing these things?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:47] I can\u2019t afford it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:16:49] The fact of the matter is you\u2019re 60 years old, you\u2019re healthy, you want to go bungee jumping in New Zealand and you can afford it with the money that you probably have in your checking account or savings account. Or if not, after two months, you would be able to afford it. What would that feel like if you did that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:04] I think it\u2019d be cool.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:07] Have you ever done something like that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:09] No. The worst I analyze everything.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:14] Just a quick question again. You\u2019re 60 years old. Do you have to wait until next winter to go?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:21] Yeah, because I need to save up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:26] Okay. How much is in all your accounts? Are we talking, like $10? $10,000? $100,000? Just a ballpark, if I were to open up all your accounts together.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:35] Was 3 million.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:37] 3 million plus the house, 2 million. Plus the cash flow. I\u2019m not sure you need to save up 500 bucks a month for a year. Anybody agree with me? Could you just go and then pay yourself back?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:52] No, because you had to work for it. You got to save it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:17:55] Tommy. Tommy, listen to me closely. There is no virtue in living a smaller life than you have to. You already have the money, you have the health, you have a loving partner. You have kids. You won. It\u2019s time to cash it in.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>That was a live Q&amp;A from my money coaching program where I show you new ways to apply my material to your finances and I answer your money questions right there on the spot. You can join at iwt.com\/moneycoaching. That\u2019s iwt.com\/moneycoaching. Now, back to my conversation with Tommy and Caroline.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:18:32] [Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Each month I\u2019m putting money away because that\u2019s how my mind works. It\u2019s like that\u2019s how you get to buy shit. You don\u2019t just say, okay, I\u2019m going to buy it. I got to make sure that I have the money, and if I don\u2019t, I\u2019m going to save up for it. I\u2019m going to earmark this amount of money, and that\u2019s how I\u2019m going to do it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:18:57] Sounds pretty reasonable the way you say it. But I also remember I had to pull teeth to get you to talk about New Zealand. And then when you finally said, \u201cOh, that would be cool,\u201d it was like, \u201cYeah, we\u2019ll go on that a year from now or 18 months or some long time from now.\u201d That sound familiar?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:18] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:19] I was like, \u201cWhy don\u2019t you just go next month? In fact, why don\u2019t you go next week?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:24] I can\u2019t afford it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:25] Oh, you can\u2019t? I guess I\u2019m looking at these numbers in your conscious spending plan with all those zeros. Oh, that must be a very expensive trip to New Zealand. My gosh.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:35] We\u2019re going to live a long time. We got to take care of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:39] Not that long. You\u2019ve got a lot of zeros in this conscious spending plan. What\u2019s up with that nod, Caroline? Do you think so, too?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:19:48] Well, we talk about a place in Florida, and I knew if we would get a place, it had to be reasonable. So we do some Airbnbs and this one place that we stayed at, the condos were going for $200,000. I thought, oh, he might entertain that. Yeah. Yeah. And there was on water. So I said something to him and he said, sure. Boom. He changed his mind completely. He was like, \u201cI don\u2019t think we need to spend the money.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:20:18] So how do you two come to agreements on spending money? How does it go?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:20:26] Ideally, we come to a solution\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:20:31] No. I don\u2019t want to know ideally. I want to know real. Give me a scenario.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>That was a mistake on my part. I violated my own rule, which is, ask a vague question, get a vague answer. And that\u2019s exactly what started to happen. If I hear people going into vague language, \u201cIdeally we do this, or we usually do that,\u201d I never let them continue. I don\u2019t care about their answer because it\u2019s always fake. In vague language when we are talking about ourselves vaguely, we\u2019re perfect. We always try to work out. We try to eat right. We try to manage our money.<\/p>\n<p>In real life, we haven\u2019t opened up a sub-savings account in five years because our kid keeps waking up at 5 AM and we lost the password and if we roll it all back, it\u2019s because my mom didn\u2019t love me, because I got to be on my math test in fourth grade. Those are the details that I\u2019m looking for because those are the details that actually matter. So remember, ask a vague question, get a vague answer.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Give me a scenario.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:21:39] But we don\u2019t have the condo, I\u2019ll tell you that. I get told no. And I say, \u201cWhat about my money?\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:21:48] I\u2019ve told her, I said, we\u2019re going to travel. I\u2019m not going to wait. That\u2019s why I want to go to New Zealand next year. She\u2019s thinking, hmm, is this going to happen? I\u2019ve already put it in the works with the travel agent. So it\u2019s going to happen. Not sure what month is going to be January or February of 2024, because I got to save up for it. But I\u2019m sure I will have enough saved up for it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:12] How much do you need to save up for that trip?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:17] I\u2019m thinking probably about $20,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:24] Okay. How long is the trip going to be?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:26] A month. I\u2019m already putting money aside.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:30] Okay. Caroline, do you agree with that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:34] Yeah, I would think that would be a good amount of money for a month. When you rent something for a month, it\u2019s more reasonable than a hotel for a month or whatever.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:44] Okay. You\u2019re about to be retired. Tommy says he doesn\u2019t want to retire for a long time. What\u2019s that going to mean for the two of you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:52] Meaning about spending money?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:56] Yeah. Or traveling, spending money, that kind of thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:22:59] I want to keep at the same income level I\u2019m at, which is pretty low. And I do that for tax reasons. So I don\u2019t want to be pulling a boatload out of our savings. And I would like to keep it at that. I\u2019m not working just because oh, I\u2019m nervous. I really enjoy what I do. It\u2019s a lot of fun. And I think I\u2019m pretty good at it. And it excites me. I think guys who retire early die early, and I\u2019m not going to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:23:31] Okay. Caroline, what does it mean for you that one is going to be retired and one is not?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:23:37] It means, like he just said, that we\u2019re not going to have as much income. And I worry because we\u2019re young, I want to do stuff now. I don\u2019t want to do anything because we feel like we don\u2019t have money. And then when we\u2019re 75 because he\u2019s going to live to 100, we\u2019re going to do stuff. And I\u2019m like, \u201cI don\u2019t see it that way at all.\u201d I had a mother that did everything. She always was going and going and going. Then she got sick and she didn\u2019t do anything. She ended up still giving us money because later on in her life she didn\u2019t do much.<\/p>\n<p>My greatest fear is that we\u2019re not going to spend any money now because he feels like we don\u2019t have a double income and by the time we can spend money as when we\u2019re older, I won\u2019t want to travel as much. And we\u2019re saving for Tommy to live to 100 is what we\u2019re doing. We\u2019re totally saving for Tommy to live to 100.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:24:30] I see. Tommy, what do you think about what Caroline said? She had some pretty important things there.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:24:37] I believe we need to be on the same page. And then I do believe it\u2019s pretty smooth because Caroline\u2019s going to speak her mind and she knows that I\u2019m going to speak my mind. Yet I realize there are times that I do feel I control things too much. And that\u2019s probably a huge downfall for me.<\/p>\n<p>But huge attribute because I own my own business and I guess I\u2019ve had to go with that mindset that the buck stops with me. If things screw up, it\u2019s my fault and hopefully, they go well, and collectively, we\u2019ll do well. But I know I control shit way too much.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:28] All right. Do you want to change that or no?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:32] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:36] Yes. Put it this way. I love playing sports. And when I\u2019m on a team sport, I am never, ever the coach or the manager because I love when other guys are telling me what to do. I love it. It\u2019s like for once, I don\u2019t have to worry about this or that. It\u2019s just I got to worry about how well I perform.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:25:58] Okay. So you like being the individual contributor when it comes to sports, at work, you\u2019re the person in charge. The buck stops with you. But it sounds like you have also adopted that mentality when it comes to money in your relationship. Would that be fair?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:17] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:18] And do you want that relationship the way it is now, or do you want to change it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:24] I want to change it, but I worry. I worry that if I\u2019m not in control, then\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:29] I didn\u2019t ask about the but. I just asked if you want to change it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:36] Yeah, a little bit.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:38] You really should watch Tommy\u2019s facial expressions as I ask these questions. He\u2019s quite expressive, and it tells you a lot. Check out the YouTube video. You could say no. I\u2019m not trying to lead you with a cry. If you don\u2019t want to change it, tell me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:26:51] Then I will answer a little bit. I feel moving forward, this is a big thing about how we spend our money. And I get worried about it. Even our financial guy has said, hey, you\u2019re good. You guys are good. Well, I don\u2019t know. I don\u2019t know how much we can spend each month. That\u2019s what I want to feel comfortable with. Because if I know that, then I can chill. I can relax.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:27:25] So you believe that if you have a certain number in front of you, that suddenly you\u2019re going to relax about money?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:27:33] Yes.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:27:33] Okay. Here\u2019s a little pop quiz for you. If you were in my chair, how would you approach the rest of your conversation with Tommy and Caroline? What route would you take? Think about it. Some people are tempted to emphasize the numbers. Tommy, you\u2019re a millionaire. But what if I told you Tommy already knows that and he hasn\u2019t actually changed anything because of it? What else would you do?<\/p>\n<p>See, one of the things I\u2019m trying to do here is to get as many of the details out of couples that I speak to, but I\u2019m also evaluating the details that they give me. Most of it, candidly, is noise. Some of it is interesting, but it\u2019s a route with a dead end or a bad end. You\u2019ll sometimes hear me wave couples off of a certain conversation route they\u2019re going, and if I can tell, it\u2019s not going to be good. Other times I will hear something, and it\u2019s really important, but it\u2019s not as important as the burning issue.<\/p>\n<p>I\u2019ll give you an example from this conversation right now. Tommy has mentioned his finance guy. Now, I haven\u2019t gone down that route intentionally, but I\u2019m willing to bet he\u2019s paying somebody a 1% AUM fee, which is a total waste of money, especially at their net worth.<\/p>\n<p>Now, ordinarily, I would spend time talking about that, but I don\u2019t want to do that. Just like for any soccer referees out there, the advantage clause, just let it go. Same thing here. I can see this mistake happening, but there are bigger things that I need to talk about.<\/p>\n<p>And frankly, if I were to bring up that AUM fee, he\u2019s probably paying a financial advisor, Tommy would welcome it because he wants to do anything except tackle the real issue here. The real issue, the burning pain, that is what I\u2019m always looking for. Because if we can solve that, the $30,000 question or in their case, the $10 million question, then the rest of their concerns are mere trivialities.<\/p>\n<p>So this is what I mean by focusing on the big wins. There\u2019s usually one main issue that is more important and meaningful than all the next nine issues combined. We want to search for it and take as long as we need to do to find it. But when we find it, we want to go full head-on to confront that issue.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>You mentioned that you never want to be a burden on your family. I can understand that completely. And you mentioned that you don\u2019t want to have to worry. You want to know that there\u2019s enough.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:14] Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:15] How much is enough? Look at that smile. I like this. Have you talked about this before? I\u2019m going to go out on a limb here.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:28] I don\u2019t know. $12,000 a month.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:31] Well, but\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:31] Is that enough?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:35] Not really.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:36] How much is enough?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:38] I would think $15,000 a month.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:41] Okay, Tommy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:44] If we can afford it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:49] Well, I\u2019m not asking if you can afford it. I\u2019m just asking how much is enough?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:54] I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:30:55] How much should the two of you make together? How much do the two of you make right now every month together? Gross?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:03] Mine\u2019s tricky because I\u2019m self-employed.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:07] So how much do you pay yourself nets?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:12] $3,750 every two weeks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:16] Hold on. Every time people give me these weird.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:19] It\u2019s like $7,500.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:21] $7,500 a month gross.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:23] No, net.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:25] Oh, that\u2019s net. Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:27] So gross, I think was about $7,300 every two weeks.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:30] But it would be higher. The gross would be higher.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:33] The accounts take out to the 401K, to do other things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:38] That\u2019s why I like to see gross. But whatever. All right. You basically make like $10,000, $12,000 a month gross. But you could pay yourself more. You could pay yourself less. You choose to pay yourself that much. Right?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:51] Right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:31:51] All right, fine. And Caroline, you make approximately $7,000 a month. Fair enough?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:01] Yeah, probably. Mine\u2019s going into 401K and medical bill.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:06] Not gross. You make more than that. You\u2019re about $160,000 a year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:12] As you two dig through your paystubs and stuff, I just want to point out, for everyone watching and listening, here we have a multimillionaire couple who doesn\u2019t even know how much they make. It\u2019s fucking awesome.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:23] It is because I don\u2019t look at the bank account. He should look at the bank account.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:28] I do look at the bank account.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:29] Yeah. It\u2019s like $13,000 a month. Yeah, I probably make $13,000 a month. I did 160 divided by 12.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:39] Whatever. It doesn\u2019t matter to me. You all make a lot of money. Fine with me. Your income is about to disappear, Caroline. Fine. And, Tommy, you can basically pay yourself whatever you want to pay yourself. You choose to pay yourself that much. Could you pay yourself more theoretically? You have the cash flow for it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:58] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:32:58] Yeah. So, Tommy, can I ask you a couple of questions? So you\u2019re 60 years old?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:03] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:04] You\u2019re a multimillionaire. Successful entrepreneur. Do you accept those things?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:11] Yeah. The multimillionaire. No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:14] I\u2019m looking at the numbers. There\u2019s multiple commas, let\u2019s put it that way. You are a multi-millionaire.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:20] If you look at it that way. Yes, I guess.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:22] Yeah, the way is like facts. Okay. So you are a multi-millionaire, successful entrepreneur. How long have you been running your business?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:30] A little over 30 years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:31] Fantastic. All right. How many businesses do we know that even last that long? That\u2019s amazing. Okay. You\u2019re telling me that in 30 years and millions of dollars of accumulation, you have never been able to figure out how much money you can safely spend every month?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:33:52] We\u2019ve been told about, figure on $12,000 a month and you should be fine.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:34:03] Okay. And do you accept that number?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:34:07] I think so. I think we can do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:34:11] You told me a second ago I need to know the number because then I\u2019m just going to hand over financial control to Caroline. Well, you know the number.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:34:19] I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s the right number. I think it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:34:21] I see. I see. I see. Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:34:23] I\u2019ve never been in a position like this. It doesn\u2019t seem real. I\u2019m proud of what we\u2019ve done. We\u2019ve saved a shitload. And we\u2019ve done it, I want to say the hard way. It\u2019s like making smart choices, not overspending on stupid shit, and knowing our means.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:34:46] Okay. And if we go back to you, you saved a lot. You\u2019re proud of what you did. You never thought you\u2019d be in this position. And therefore, to think about spending more means what?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:35:05] Man, if you don\u2019t follow the course, Tommy, you\u2019re going to fuck it up. So you better keep saving. I\u2019m just being honest.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:35:11] I appreciate it. I think that\u2019s real. What got you here could work. It would work with the mentality of where you were at 30 years old when you started this business. And at that point, probably you were actually about 30 years old when you started this business. Hustling, trying to get your first client, etc\u2026 Every entrepreneur goes to that stage. I get that. But every entrepreneur is, in a way, trying to get to where you are. And what a shame if you still act the exact same way you did when you were 30 years old just starting out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:35:56] I guess I don\u2019t look at it as being a shame. It\u2019s like I got to keep hustling. I got to keep having that edge. I got to keep doing this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:36:05] Can you hustle and still, enjoy some of the benefits of what you\u2019ve worked for?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:36:16] I know I should enjoy it more and Caroline pushes me to do that and I know I\u2019m kind of a dick.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:36:28] Tommy is showing you what happens to successful people who wrap frugality and saving into their identity. When they finally succeed it is virtually impossible for them to change their identity. And you will see that successful people like this display a complete inability to get off the hamster wheel. Because when you\u2019ve always lived for the future, telling yourself that someday you\u2019ll spend your money, you have actually let the skill of spending money meaningfully deteriorate.<\/p>\n<p>Now, if you are listening or you\u2019re watching this, Tommy\u2019s actually giving you a huge gift. He\u2019s giving you the gift of a crystal ball into your future. Many of you, especially the ones who have read my book and joined my earning program and money coaching, you\u2019re going to end up with a lot of money. But if you don\u2019t learn how to meaningfully save as well as spend it, it\u2019s very likely you will end up with more money than you can use and no real ability or willingness to spend it.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:37:39] Caroline will tell you this, two things that I love to spend money on and I don\u2019t. She said, traveling. I do. But when it comes to sporting events and concerts, I don\u2019t care. I will go to as many as possible and I\u2019ll try to get the best seats if I can and I love doing that. That\u2019s my indulgence.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:02] Okay. You don\u2019t worry that you\u2019re spending too much on it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:07] No, because I feel I deserve it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:10] Oh, you deserve it. Where did that come from?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:14] Of cause I work hard. To me, that\u2019s pretty minor. Just saying, \u201cHey, I\u2019m going to spend it on concerts and sporting events.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:27] Okay. Good answer. What else is the best case for you? Concerts. Do you want to go to one every year, quarter? What are we talking about?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:35] Oh, shit. At least I\u2019d like to go once a month, minimum.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:37] Wow. Okay. What kind of seats you want to get there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:42] Ooh, that\u2019d be cool to have really good seats.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:45] You ever done that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:47] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:48] I got you. So, concerts. Maybe once in a while get some great seats. Go every month. Fantastic. What else?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:38:55] Sporting events. I know so little about soccer, but I think it\u2019d be cool to check out the World Cup.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:39:05] That\u2019d be cool. Sounds good to me. Do you think we might be able to apply that to some other parts of your life?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:39:12] Caroline\u2019s laughing. I know. I guess I should.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:39:15] Caroline, what does it mean to you to hear Tommy sharing these things? Any surprises?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:39:21] No. Eventually, like your 401K, they make you take it out. So then I\u2019m thinking, okay, when they make us take it out, Tommy\u2019s probably going to put it in another savings account. He\u2019s not going to spend it. I can just hear it. I\u2019m hearing it from him now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:39:37] I know what retired men do. Optimizers like you, Tommy. I know it because I talk to them and they take their RMD, they\u2019re required to take it out and then they literally put it right back in. They invest it again. I go, \u201cWhat the fuck are you doing?\u201d And they go, \u201cWhoa, I don\u2019t even know what to spend it on.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And this is where it goes from funny to haunting. They go, \u201cWhat would I spend it on anyway?\u201d And I go, \u201cLet me get this straight.\u201d I don\u2019t say this to them because I\u2019m not trying to psychologically devastate a 72-year-old man.<\/p>\n<p>But I go, let me get this straight. You worked your ass off for basically 45-plus years to accumulate a bunch of money provided for your family. You did all that. But along the way, you forgot what you actually wanted to spend it on. Maybe you never even built the muscle of knowing how to spend it meaningfully. What\u2019s the point of all that money?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:40:36] I agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:40:38] I sort of agree.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:40:39] How about the way that the two of you deal with money together? Best case.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:40:47] Not me bitching. That would be the best-case scenario. Not me worrying about stuff because I slowly am believing that we do have enough, so I can just relax more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:05] That\u2019s good. Maybe another 30 years, then you\u2019ll believe it. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:10] I think 10 years. I think I\u2019ll be good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:15] So what changes ten years from now that you don\u2019t already have?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:19] I\u2019ll have more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:21] You\u2019ll have millions more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:23] [inaudible] compound.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:25] Yeah, but I think it\u2019ll help. It\u2019ll help us.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:28] Have the two of you ever considered\u2013 this is a legitimate question. Is there a point at which the two of you have invested too much money? Has that question ever come up between the two of you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:41] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:42] That\u2019s what I thought.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:44] Yeah. Never.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:41:45] Because that\u2019s not a question that middle-class people ever really confront. It is, you save. You invest. You scrap and scrape it all together. And hopefully, by the time you retire, you\u2019ve got enough to live a comfortable life and maybe travel. Fair?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:42:05] Fair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:42:05] That\u2019s the archetype for how we live in America. In the middle class. First of all, I\u2019m looking at that very nice tree behind you, Tommy. Now, I don\u2019t know if that\u2019s a middle-class tree or not, but I\u2019m going to tell you something. I bought my first Christmas tree this year with my wife. We went to the little tree lot. We got a little tree. I\u2019m talking three feet tall.<br \/>\nSo we have no idea. Does this tree cost, like $10 or $150? We have no clue. So we get the tree and then we\u2019re like, \u201cOh, man, we\u2019ve got to get some lights for this thing.\u201d We go to Target. We get the light. We don\u2019t know how many lights to get. So we get one strand and then we come home and we have to wrap and we\u2019re in a budget way. Let\u2019s just stretch this strand out. It doesn\u2019t even go to the top.<\/p>\n<p>And I\u2019m looking at your tree. I\u2019m going, \u201cThat is a very nice tree.\u201d A lot of ornaments. Probably took you 20 years to collect that, plus the fact that I\u2019m looking at many millions of dollars in your bank account. I\u2019m going, maybe some of the old middle-class rules don\u2019t apply to you, too. Have you considered that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:07] Hell no.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:08] All right. Is it time to consider that now?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:12] I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:14] Maybe you\u2019re talking to a guy who grew up middle class and now some of the rules don\u2019t apply to him as they used to. Maybe this is a good conversation for us all to have. What do you think?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:23] Maybe a little bit. I should chill a little bit more.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:28] That\u2019s what you told me you wanted to do on this call. I\u2019m giving you the option here, Tommy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:36] Caroline\u2019s like, \u201cYeah, keep talking Tommy.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:38] Yeah, she\u2019s loving it. Go ahead, Caroline.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:40] Definitely. I don\u2019t want to be upset about money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:43:44] All right, let\u2019s talk about it. There is a point where when you accumulate enough, it actually starts not making sense for you to continue saving and investing at the rate you were.<\/p>\n<p>Now, this really only applies to people with a considerable amount of money. The vast majority of people, they need to save more and they need to invest more. And it\u2019s very difficult for a lot of people, especially with housing costs, all that stuff.<\/p>\n<p>In your case, you\u2019re mentioning to me, Tommy, that you still put a ton of money in your 401K. Caroline, same thing for you, and all that is great. I love a good 401K. I love all these tax-advantaged retirement accounts.<\/p>\n<p>But the fact of the matter is, Caroline, you\u2019re about to retire. Tommy, you\u2019re 60. And when I look at how much money you\u2019ve got and the fact that you\u2019re going to continue working, etc, etc, I start to ask myself, what if you took, let\u2019s just say, $5,000 a month, just a round number, and instead of putting it in 401K or whatever savings vehicle, you just used it for cash flow and you use it for traveling and used it to not have to go two miles down the road for cheaper gas and you used it for whatever it is you wanted to use it for. What would happen?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:10] I\u2019d have to work harder.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:12] Okay. Because?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:13] I get more jobs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:14] Because what?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:17] Because I need to keep invest\u2013 I need to go invest in the 401K and other things.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:17] Why?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:32] Because it\u2019s like, I don\u2019t believe I\u2019ll have enough or we\u2019ll have enough. I got to keep doing that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:38] Yeah. [inaudible] good answer.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:42] And Caroline, you disagree?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:45:44] I totally disagree. Like I said, my mom, not to use her as an example, it\u2019s probably not the best example, but she didn\u2019t have that much money, not anywhere close to what we have. And she still gave money to her kids when she passed.<\/p>\n<p>And the same thing with my dad. He didn\u2019t have a whole lot of money. And everyone, Tommy\u2019s kids will tell him, \u201cDad, go have fun. Go spend your money. We don\u2019t want any money.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:46:13] What do you say to that, Tommy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:46:16] I tell them to mind their own business and let me chill.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:46:23] I told the same thing to my parents. Did you know that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:46:27] What?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:46:28] I sat down with them because my dad was telling me, he called me and he told me some deal he got on something and I said, \u201cDad, you don\u2019t have to go for all the deals anymore. You have enough.\u201d And he and my mom, they didn\u2019t believe it. And so I sat down with them and I made their finances really simple, even though my dad is he\u2019s quite savvy with money, but being savvy with money versus knowing if you have enough, those are two very, very different skills. Very different.<\/p>\n<p>I said, \u201cWe don\u2019t want any money. We want you to spend every last cent.\u201d And I even put them on a travel budget, but not the kind you think. It\u2019s a budget where you have to spend this much every single month. And that actually has taken a little bit of work, but it\u2019s proven to be a different way of looking at money. What do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:29] I think your dad should be instructing me right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:47:34] Probably true.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p>This is a very interesting and advanced topic. And this is really only applicable for people who have enough money but have an inability or unwillingness to spend it. In this case, we do a bit of a reverse budget. In many ways, it\u2019s what the conscious spending plan is for. That\u2019s why if you download the free conscious spending plan, I put the link in the show notes, you will start to automatically build this skill of spending money in areas that are meaningful to you. I\u2019ll give you an example.<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s say that you want to become a better photographer. Okay, great. In your conscious spending plan, specifically the fourth category, guilt-free spending, you can allocate 200 bucks a month for photography classes or equipment, whatever you want. And you can look at your conscious spending plan and you can see what is important to you. Now guess what? Maybe you try it for six months. You go, I\u2019m not into this. Let me put it aside. Cool.<\/p>\n<p>You just change your conscious spending plan and you shift it to something else. Your conscious spending plan and your calendar really reflect your season of life. And that concept of a season of life is really important.<\/p>\n<p>When I was in my 20s, I was very aggressive at saving and investing, and even though my income was relatively low to what it would become, just as almost everybody\u2019s income in their 20s is low compared to what it will become, I wanted to get my habits right. I was aggressively investing a larger percentage of income because I wanted those habits and I wanted that compounding to kick in.<\/p>\n<p>I was also spending a lot going out. Taco Tuesdays. I was living in San Francisco, New York. I was having a great time. Now I couldn\u2019t do it all. There were things I couldn\u2019t afford then that I can afford now. But I was spending as consciously as I could have. Looking back, I think I could have done things a little differently. I would have probably spent more on having fun, but at least I gave it some thought.<\/p>\n<p>If you get to the point where you have more money than you actually need, this happens to a surprising number of people, it\u2019s just not talked about in the press, you start to encounter some very unconventional decisions that you may have to make. For example, for the vast majority of people, to be able to max out their 401K is a dream, to be able to max out X, Y, Z account is a dream.<\/p>\n<p>There may actually be a point where you go, I\u2019m not going to max it out. Money has higher utility to me now than to save it for retirement later. So again, this applies to less than 3% of people. But on this podcast, I like to show you all gamuts whether you\u2019re $800,000 in debt or you have over $10 Million in net worth, I want you to know how to play the game of money no matter what level you are at.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:50:28] I\u2019ll tell you a scenario in that you\u2019re going to yell at me, but I feel justified. This past summer, Caroline\u2019s son and girlfriend came up, and of course, Caroline said, \u201cLet\u2019s go to the best, most expensive restaurant\u201d which we love. We both love. And I\u2019m, \u201cWhy can\u2019t we just grill here and just chill?\u201d And long story short, it was at least 500 bucks for all of us to eat, drink.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:11] How often do you see these kids?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:13] Once a year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:15] Well, now we see more than that. But this occasion was once a year.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:20] Was it worth it, Tommy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:24] It was fun. It really was fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:28] Do you think 10 years from now, when you have millions more just purely based on compound interest, do you think you would feel differently about that type of meal?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:41] I guess I look at it this way. I wouldn\u2019t have expected my parents to do that, and nor would Caroline expect her parents to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:51] Did either of your parents have millions of dollars?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:54] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:55] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:51:56] Did either of your parents have their own business that they ran for 30 years to this level of success and Caroline\u2019s income as well?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:52:06] Never.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:52:07] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:52:08] It\u2019s hard to take an identity that\u2019s not our parents, because in a way, deep down, it might even feel like we\u2019re rejecting what they taught us. They would never take us to eat at a place that\u2019s $125 a person. I get that. And you don\u2019t have to do it every day. It doesn\u2019t sound like you\u2019re doing that. But if you had the ability to ask your parents, \u201cMom, dad, if you had the money, would you have taken us out to a nice meal once a year?\u201d What do you think they would say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:52:40] Yeah, I think he would.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:52:41] You have the means. What\u2019s really more important than the amount spent on this one-time dinner is the fact that you have kids coming home,\u00a0 still a great relationship with them. To me, that\u2019s way more meaningful than how much you\u2019re spending. You can go to a pizza place for 20 bucks. It doesn\u2019t matter to me. But the fact that you all chose to go to this place and you created a memorable dinner, to me, that\u2019s way more meaningful than the amount you spent.<\/p>\n<p>And I actually think that the two of you have earned the right to focus more on meaning than on money. Most of us go our whole lives only thinking about money. By necessity, we got to save. We have got to buy clothes for the kids. We don\u2019t have enough. But you won that game. You won. And you can keep playing. Tommy, you never heard me once say anything about, \u201cI need you to retire tomorrow.\u201d That\u2019s your decision.<\/p>\n<p>You won that game of money, and now you get the chance to focus on meaning. And if you don\u2019t do that and you just keep playing the same game for the next 10 or 20 or 30 years, you\u2019re leaving so much on the field. That\u2019s how I look at it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:54:03] That\u2019s a good analogy. I like that.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:54:06] Meaning over money. Think about that phrase. It\u2019s not something that would have resonated with me at 20. At 20, I was willing to work unlimited hours. I wanted to grow everything, grow my skills, grow my friend group, grow my net worth. Meaning over money would not have made sense to me in that season of life.<\/p>\n<p>And there\u2019s another example I want to give you. If you take someone who is struggling to pay their bills\u2013 this concept also makes no sense. It\u2019s just words. Meaning over money does not make sense, nor is it relevant to someone who\u2019s struggling to just pay their bills. But I\u2019m not talking to those two groups right now. I\u2019m talking to Tommy and Caroline, who are multimillionaires. And Tommy\u2019s in his 60s.<\/p>\n<p>It is a tragedy to live a smaller life than you have to. And for someone worth millions of dollars to even think about the price of $500 he has once a year with his kids, that is too small for Tommy. Excuse me for being direct, but that is the truth. Focus on the menu. Focus on the ambiance. Focus on the stories you shared over dinner. Focus on anything. But not the price. You are too successful to fixate on the price of one dinner.<\/p>\n<p>Yes. There are situations where the price of something is totally and completely irrelevant. And this is one of them.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p>Let\u2019s open up that conscious spending plan. All right. Fantastic. Okay, before you look at all that, Caroline, just ballpark. Just looking at me without looking at the spreadsheet. How much money do you think you both have?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:55:54] Okay, so I don\u2019t look at our cars and house as income. So I would say we have probably 3 million.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:02] Okay. All right. And how does that make you feel?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:07] I think that\u2019s a good amount.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:09] Okay. Great. All right. And your understanding of how much income you make per month total, ballpark it for me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:20] Okay. So I made last year $165,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:24] Mm-hmm. And Tom?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:29] I\u2019m going to say. $180,000 or $200,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:38] Let\u2019s say $200,000. And then we got the house which generated 60K, fair? Or even 100K, let\u2019s say. Let\u2019s gross it up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:47] Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:48] All right. So that\u2019s $465,000. Last year\u2019s gross. How\u2019s that sound ballpark?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:58] Sounds like a lot.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:56:59] Yeah, it does.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:01] It does when you add it all up. Three numbers.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:07] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:08] Do you guys see something? Look at this discomfort on your faces, by the way. I love it. What do both of you think you make together? Let me guess, $180,000 to $200,000. Is that what you thought you make?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:20] I know I made $165,000 but I didn\u2019t know what he did.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:22] I thought it was maybe $300,000 total.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:24] And do you know why there\u2019s such a disparity?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:29] I have no clue.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:57:31] What are the reasons that I like people to give me their gross number is that when you take the net, you\u2019re actually taking out like 20K here, 20K there for your 401K and all these other things, and you just don\u2019t count that mentally. That\u2019s one of the reasons the two of you have been so successful at investing. Because you\u2019re just taking out 20K at a time and throwing it into your 401k and letting it compound.<\/p>\n<p>Amazing for investing growth. Horrible for understanding how much you\u2019re actually making every year. So when you hear $465,000 hey, look, maybe I\u2019m off by 30K, who the hell knows? But I mean in the ballpark. Would you say that\u2019s fair? I mean the ballpark.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:10] I guess so.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:12] All right. I\u2019m right in the ballpark. That\u2019s a lot of money. $465,000. Even if it\u2019s $430,000. That\u2019s a lot. In fact, it\u2019s over $130,000 more than you thought you were making. So it\u2019s important to be fluent in the basic language of finance. Now, Caroline, you mentioned earlier that you don\u2019t see the house as income. I agree, but I do see it as part of your net worth because it\u2019s paid off. Would you agree with that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:42] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:43] So you have 2.7 million. No plans to liquidate it. Fine. But it is there and it\u2019s worth 2.7 million. Fair?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:51] Fair.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:51] All right. All right. Very good. How about your investments?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:55] They\u2019re worth 3.5.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:58:58] That\u2019s a lot. What do you feel about that, Tommy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:04] We did good. I think we did really good. I\u2019m proud of that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:08] That\u2019s awesome. Solid work. All right. Your savings, how much is in there?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:16] In our bank, I think about $14,000.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:19] Yeah, that\u2019s what I see. Why is that number so low?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:23] Low? That\u2019s the way it should be. Why would I want to put money that\u2019s earning nothing in savings?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:31] You\u2019re a classic optimizer, Tommy. You\u2019re always optimizing. But if you only have $14,000 in your savings account, which for a multimillionaire is low, then guess what it means? What are the ramifications of that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:47] It means I\u2019m doing good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:48] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:48] I\u2019m putting money in a good source making interest.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[00:59:52] No. Wrong. Tommy, you have to wait over one year and three months to take a fucking trip to New Zealand when you have a net worth of over $6 million. It makes no sense.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:04] You got to save for stuff. You can\u2019t just like. Boom.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:07] Yes, you can. Okay, let\u2019s flip this. Take me, if I want to take a trip to New Zealand. Do you think I\u2019m going to wait 15 months to save up money to go to New Zealand?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:24] I\u2019m going to say no.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:26] Why?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:28] You\u2019re way more of an optimist than I am when it comes to money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:37] Okay. What\u2019s the implication? Like, neither of us is running out of money any time soon.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:43] I\u2019m doing it a smarter way than you are.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:50] I like the confidence. Okay. Maybe you are. Who knows?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:56] He is still ever saving, is it?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:00:57] Maybe not though. Definitely not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:01:01] Yeah, that\u2019s a smart way of doing it. Saving. Because you know what? Here\u2019s a great way of looking at it. If I do it my way, it\u2019s like, \u201cI am set now. I don\u2019t have to worry because I put that money aside and we can both totally relax and we have a lot of money.\u201d It\u2019s like, \u201cI don\u2019t care what we spend now because I saved it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:01:25] I agree with that philosophy. All of it. When you go on your vacation, I don\u2019t want you worrying about eating out, ordering an extra drink, taking a little tour. I don\u2019t want any of that. I want you to be able to be comfortable. My question is, you casually mention that oops, I forgot to include $5,000 a month in net income from this property you\u2019ve got. Fine. We added it. No big deal. Where is that money going? Couldn\u2019t that money be applied directly to the trip so you would, quote, have enough within four months?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:02:05] Yeah, I guess. I know I act like I\u2019m uncomfortable because I am. Because what if I need that money for work? It\u2019s been staying in the company.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:02:18] I know, but, Tommy, you know, and I know every entrepreneur knows they need to also take some of that money out of their business, or it will just get sucked up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:02:28] Yeah. Let me do it my way for a little bit. Okay?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:02:38] Maybe 10 more years.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:02:39] Yeah, right.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:02:41] No, this is helping because the one thing so far, is not so far. A lot has hit me. Your comment about looking back and saying, hey, the memory of going out to eat, the memory of doing something with the kids, that\u2019s huge. That\u2019s everything to me. I love that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:03:07] Let\u2019s create a little bit more of those. The fortunate thing is you\u2019ve actually got the right ingredients here. You have the money, you have a pretty high income. You\u2019ve been consistently investing for decades. And so everything overall looks great. I am very happy to be able to work with this kind of ingredients. The tricky part here is the psychology, and for everybody watching and listening, you can hear that it is real.<\/p>\n<p>You can have millions of dollars. Tommy, you have it. And it\u2019s still often hard to really feel like it\u2019s enough. To really feel you hit where you need to be. All right. You have zero debt. Again, you have only $14,000 in savings. I just want to point out, it\u2019s a little bit irregular. It\u2019s not that big of a deal because we could fill that up with $150,000 like that. But. Okay. What\u2019s your total net worth, Tommy? Could you say that number out loud for me, please?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:04:05] I believe it\u2019s a little over 6 million.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:04:09] Caroline, what do you think about that number? Can you say it out loud for me?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:04:14] 6 million.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:04:16] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:04:21] What\u2019s funny is, every time you sit there and say, \u201cGod, I wish I\u2019d win the lottery.\u201d And I\u2019m like, \u201cWell, we have and we still wish we could win the lottery.\u201d It\u2019s goofy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:04:38] Maybe it\u2019s not about the actual dollar amount. But it\u2019s also about the way you feel about money. And maybe we can use some of the money to help you connect that feeling. And build the skill of spending it. How about that? I know how your finance guy, I know where he came up with that $144,000 or $12,000 a month. He basically took 3.5 million. How much you\u2019ve got invested. And he calculated 4% of that. That\u2019s a 4% safe withdrawal rate. And that\u2019s what that got you.<\/p>\n<p>Now, that number that\u2019s where it came from. Tommy, you said. \u201cI don\u2019t know if that\u2019s right or not.\u201d I don\u2019t see any glaring problems with that calculation. It\u2019s a very simple back-of-the-napkin calculation. If your money is properly diversified and invested, it\u2019s returning about 7% per year. I would safely calculate a 4% withdrawal rate. Some people like to be a little more conservative. They go 3.5 or three. But with many millions of dollars, you\u2019ve got Buffer. I see no glaring problem with assuming a 4% safe withdrawal rate. How do you feel about that? You feel good?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:06:07] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:06:07] All right, cool. Let\u2019s not forget that there\u2019s also $5,000 of net income a month. Tommy, your income, which if we were just doing this safe withdrawal rate, you too would be making $12,000 a month, probably in a tax-advantaged way. But you also have $5,000 a month plus, Tommy, whatever you\u2019re making, which is a lot, plus you\u2019re going to start getting Social Security and other distributions soon. That\u2019s a lot of money.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:06:47] I guess it is.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:06:48] Meanwhile, your assets, your portfolio is continuing to grow over the long term. How does it make you feel to hear all this? What is the message you\u2019re taking away?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:07:04] I can get my boat.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:07:07] It sounds cool, but honestly, here\u2019s what I feel. If I go with what you just said, I become soft. It\u2019s like I shouldn\u2019t work as hard and it\u2019s going to make me soft and I don\u2019t want to do that. And I know you\u2019re going to give me that old man story about some dude who is 72 years old, what\u2019s he going to do with it? That makes me feel good.<\/p>\n<p>I guess I look at it this way and Caroline laughed, is because I hate being pigeonholed by age because I feel that I can do almost as much as I could when I was 40, and I strive to do that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:07:58] Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:07:59] So to me, if someone said, \u201cYou don\u2019t want to wait till you\u2019re 70,\u201d I\u2019m like, \u201cFuck, I\u2019ll be fine when I\u2019m 70. I know I will.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:08:06] Well, you look like a healthy guy for sure. And I like the active guy. I like the fact that you\u2019re like age doesn\u2019t define me. One thing that I have learned is it\u2019s not just ourselves. It\u2019s not like you\u2019re the average guy. Financially speaking, you\u2019re not. Health-wise, you\u2019re not.<\/p>\n<p>But there\u2019s also things that happen in terms of a family member. There\u2019s external things that happen sometimes that we just can\u2019t escape. Here\u2019s my point. If you have the money, the time, and the mobility, to be able to do a few of the things on your rich life list, why not do them now? The idea that it\u2019s going to make you soft, that might be true. Or it might just be a story you tell yourself.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:08:56] That\u2019s true. I could be just telling myself that. I have to admit, I worry about the future. Don\u2019t worry about the past. Don\u2019t give a shit about the past has taught me a lot. I need to live more in the present day. We can get into the psychological aspect, but I worry about the future. Will I have enough? Will I be able to do this?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:09:15] What do you think we\u2019ve been doing for the last two hours Tommy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:09:17] I know. And it helps. Trust me. I\u2019m not throwing this the wayside.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:09:23] I think we have to have compassion for Tommy here. If you\u2019ve been thinking a certain way for 30-plus years, you can understand how hard it is to change. And we\u2019ve heard this same thing happening on multiple episodes of the podcast. We\u2019ve heard couples come on and one of them has trouble changing, even though their own attitudes and behaviors are not serving them.<\/p>\n<p>But it is simply hard to change. That is human behavior. So I think we need to have a little bit of compassion. And it becomes even more notable because if your attitude or behavior has actually made you successful, it\u2019s 10 times harder to change.<\/p>\n<p>Think about it. Tommy has saved diligently. He\u2019s always minded his money carefully. That has made him successful. And now, you\u2019re asking him to essentially change that. I wouldn\u2019t say it\u2019s as far as cutting off a physical limb, but it is certainly changing a part of your identity.<\/p>\n<p>And if you can think about somebody coming to you and taking a part of your identity that you treasure, you\u2019re funny. And I go, \u201cDon\u2019t be funny anymore. Be like the trolls who try to come at me on Twitter. They\u2019re not funny. Be like that.\u201d You\u2019d be like, \u201cNo, I\u2019m not going to do that.\u201d That\u2019s what Tommy\u2019s going through right now. But the fact is, it\u2019s not serving him anymore.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:10:56] I know this sounds weird, but I\u2019m thinking, okay, by hearing from my trades, hearing from my clients, hearing from past clients, Oh, he\u2019s not working as hard or he\u2019s not doing that. And that would bother me. It would be like, \u201cOh shit, here I go. I shouldn\u2019t have done that. Now I got to get back.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:18] Do you want some help on how to deal with that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:21] Sure.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:23] Do you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:24] Yeah, I guess.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:25] Okay, let\u2019s say that somebody says that. What would your natural reaction be?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:33] I\u2019m being honest. I\u2019d say, \u201cFuck you. What are you saying? Prove it.\u201d<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:37] Yeah. Fuck you. I\u2019m coming back, and I\u2019m going to work twice as hard and they\u2019ll see it. Fuck them.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:43] Yeah. It is. And I know it\u2019s pretty whacked.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:11:47] No, it\u2019s right on brand. It\u2019s exactly what I expected. Part of that is what got you here. You bust your ass. No one\u2019s going to ever see you as not putting in the work. They know you. That is your identity. I respect it. I think that sometimes identities are like layers. We can add on layers and we can remove layers and we actually have more control over those layers than we think. What if just we try on this layer for a second? They said, \u201cOh, Tommy used to be so responsive, he just doesn\u2019t answer my text anymore. He\u2019s losing his edge.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>And your response might be something like, \u201cHey, I\u2019m so sorry to hear that. You know that I love every one of my clients and I put you first. I\u2019ve decided that I\u2019m going to be spending more time with my family. But you\u2019re right that it\u2019s totally unacceptable for you not to get a response. I\u2019m going to fix that so that you will always have one point of contact in my business who will respond to you within 24 hours. How does that feel?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:13:00] That\u2019s a good answer. Because I\u2019m pretty good at putting together those scenarios, that was a good one.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:13:10] You put your client first, you acknowledge them. You even admit that was unacceptable. But you do not apologize for putting your family first. I love doing that. That is what I do in Earnable. We workshop your business ideas together. I do it live with you. I help you understand the psychology of your customers. I even script out what you can say to them.<\/p>\n<p>So if you are interested in earning more and starting a side business, even if you don\u2019t have an idea, we workshop that how to find a profitable idea. And every time I do this live, we have business owners in there who are already doing pretty well and they want to know how to take it to the next level. So I will put a link for the Earnable program in the show notes. I would love to see you so I can help you workshop. Just like I helped Tommy do it right there.<\/p>\n<p>If you ever have scenarios like this, I love doing this stuff, but really that gets to the core of your identity. I have no doubt you can come up with 20 answers like that on your own. You\u2019re very good socially, I can tell. But it\u2019s about you being able to say, I\u2019m adding on this new layer to my identity. It\u2019s not going to take anything away from who I was. It\u2019s just going to add a new layer of richness to who I am. Would you be willing to explore that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:14:31] Yeah, I like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:14:32] All right, that\u2019s cool. Caroline, what do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:14:35] Absolutely.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:14:36] That\u2019s cool. I did a couple of things there. That layer\u2019s concept. I gave him a new framework that he can use. So if he finds himself feeling tension at having to change his identity, now he has some language that he can use to describe it. I actually would not be surprised if Tommy finds himself saying, \u201cOh, I\u2019m trying on a new layer of my identity this week. Second, I gave him some specific words to use for a very real situation that he\u2019s worried about.<\/p>\n<p>Now, remember, they came to me asking if they have enough to retire and how Tommy can feel a little more comfortable spending. How did we end up here scripting out his conversation with a hypothetical customer? Well, the answer is, as you start to unpeel the layers of what the real issue is, you discover these tiny little objections or reservations that somebody has. And from the outside, they seem so irrelevant, so small. But to that person, they are huge. They\u2019re absolutely huge.<\/p>\n<p>And so Tommy clearly is concerned about what his customers will say if he\u2019s off traveling around the world. Boom. Let\u2019s acknowledge that. That\u2019s a real concern for you. Tommy, let me show you the exact words to say. And once somebody gets one roadblock off, then another one off, hopefully, they start to see that this is possible to change.<\/p>\n<p>So my hope is that he can tackle this and then he can start to realize, oh, I can do this with one thing I can do with many others. I wondered what else Tommy and Caroline have talked about doing together.<\/p>\n<p>[Interview]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:16:19] Okay. Well, he\u2019s talking about the New Zealand trip. I want to go to Italy, so maybe we can go to Italy in September.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:16:28] Oh, wow.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:16:28] Then we can go to New Zealand in January. February.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:16:32] Okay. Talk about it. How would you decide on that decision? Have the conversation.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:16:38] I\u2019d like to plan a month in Italy. What do you think? I don\u2019t ask for much, so it\u2019s hard for me to even say that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:16:51] I am great with that. I want to go. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:16:58] That\u2019s it? First of all, this is awesome. I love the discomfort, by the way. Your discomfort is my pleasure. Okay. Just so you know. Now, that\u2019s it. That\u2019s all you need to say before you go off and plan the whole thing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:17:13] Well, he\u2019ll probably want to know the expense, so I\u2019ll have to figure that out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:17:17] Why don\u2019t you two talk about it right now?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:17:20] I\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:17:23] Hold on. He didn\u2019t say that. Why do you assume he wants to know about the expense? Let him say that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:17:32] Normally, yeah. I would say to him, like, what do you think? And I\u2019m thinking the same money that we spend in New Zealand.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:17:43] That\u2019s a lot. I don\u2019t think we need that much for Italy.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:17:47] Why will it be more expensive in New Zealand verses Italy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:17:50] Hold on, hold on, hold on. There\u2019s so many things. I\u2019m going to add my commentary. This is my dream job. So first of all, that\u2019s a very nice tree you have behind you. You don\u2019t need a tree like that. But you still got it, didn\u2019t you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:18:05] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:18:06] All right. You got a lot of nice stuff. You don\u2019t need it. I don\u2019t need whatever. But I still got it. And I don\u2019t think either of us are highly materialistic Tommy. But there are certain things that you mentioned yourself you want. The memories. The meaning. So instead of reacting with your instinctive reaction, which when it comes to money, is what?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:18:35] I got to think it over. I got to make sure we\u2019re good. I got to analyze it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:18:40] Yeah. Let\u2019s give a name to that little guy on your shoulder. Who is it? What\u2019s the person\u2019s name?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:18:47] Dickhead. I don\u2019t know.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:18:48] Okay. I did not expect that one. All right. Little dickhead is over here. What is little D wearing? What is he outfitted in?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:18:59] Well, he probably looks like an accountant.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:02] That\u2019s a good one. Describe that for me.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:06] A straight-laced guy saying, hey, going like this, holding it, you know, rubbing their fingers against their chin, like, are you sure?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:16] What else is he saying?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:17] Let\u2019s think about this.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:18] Keep going. What else?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:19] Because this doesn\u2019t make a lot of financial sense now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:24] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:25] Maybe go to Italy, but maybe you don\u2019t need to spend that much. Maybe we get a better deal.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:32] Yes. Loves deals. This person is on Orbitz or Expedia. Oh, have you considered this? What if you took the five connections on the way to Rome? Yeah. What else does this person say?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:43] I\u2019m not doing that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:45] We won\u2019t do that. I want to fly better.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:19:46] Give me a little bit of credit on something. I said, \u201cHey, I\u2019ve been thinking about this New Zealand trip and I want to go business class.\u201d What\u2019s her response? \u201cWell, of course, it\u2019s really far.\u201d I\u2019m thinking. What?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:03] Okay. Okay, We\u2019ll come back to that. I have a little coaching that might help with that conversation, but that\u2019s a cool conversation. I\u2019m proud of that. So little dickhead over here, dressed like an accountant and always telling you, I don\u2019t think you\u2019re going to need that. Let\u2019s run the numbers. Now, who\u2019s the other person on your other shoulder?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:21] Mr. Chill.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:22] Mr. Chill. What is Mr. Chill look like?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:26] Maybe like the Big Lebowski.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:28] Okay. Okay. Very good. And what does he say to you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:32] Just relax, man. You got it covered. It\u2019s all good.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:37] Is Mr. Chill going to let you spend your way into running out of money?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:45] I hope not.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:20:46] No, he\u2019s your guy, so you can decide what he does. He doesn\u2019t have to be the guy who gets you bankrupt. It\u2019s your Mr. Chill. So you tell me, is he going to let you go that far?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:21:00] No.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:21:01] I don\u2019t think so either. Mr. Chill is not Mr. Spend it all on yachts and stuff like that. Mr. Chill is more saying what?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:21:12] Have fun. Have fun, man. If it means you\u2019re going on a kick-ass trip. Have fun. Go to the best restaurants. You\u2019re staying at some good places. You\u2019re not worrying about how you\u2019re going to get there because your travel agent has it all figured out.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:21:31] I\u2019m loving watching Tommy and Caroline\u2019s face as they go through this moment. You should see. It\u2019s dreamy, it\u2019s aspirational. And most of all, it\u2019s fun. This is how money is supposed to be. This is how it can be for Tommy and Caroline and for you.<\/p>\n<p>I love it. I love it. And one last question. Each of them is holding something in their hand, something that really demonstrates their worldview. What is little D holding in his hand?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:22:05] My first visual was probably holding like, you read about teachers when they\u2019re really old, this big stick whacking you on the back of the head or back saying, you better think about it and. Mr. Chill\u2019s Probably he\u2019s got a. Brian Alaska and Amber and his hand and or pina colada, something like that.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:22:30] Yeah. Yeah. I\u2019m thinking he\u2019s got the pina colada and he\u2019s got a camera or a little photo book and he\u2019s just going like, this is what you\u2019re going to create, this kind of memories. What do you think about that?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:22:47] I love that part. Yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:22:48] I like this a lot, especially for you, because you have these voices. Now you\u2019ve given a name to them, you\u2019ve given a look to them. You even know what\u2019s in their hand. You got this guy, he\u2019s having his drink. The other guy\u2019s got that punitive little stick. And when you have these conversations right now, this guy, Mr. Punitive, he comes out or little dickhead, as you call him. He\u2019s your first reaction.<\/p>\n<p>But you have the choice on who to listen to. Now, here\u2019s the trick. They\u2019re not going anywhere. They\u2019re both going to be there. My advice to you is not just to get rid of one of them, because that\u2019s not going to happen. They are with you. They are part of you. But you get to choose who to listen to. And it\u2019s nice to have a balance. But right now, would you agree they\u2019re a little out of balance?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:23:43] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:23:44] Okay. Okay. So let\u2019s try that whole last thing again. Caroline, you mentioned that when it comes to Italy, you have a general target budget in mind. Go ahead. Bring it up. And Tommy when you react. Well, let\u2019s see what happens.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:24:07] Okay, so I want to go to Italy for a month and I\u2019m thinking it\u2019s going to cost us around $20,000 with all the tours and going out to eat and the nice places we will be staying at. What do you think? I\u2019ll have a portfolio for you, but I don\u2019t have it at hand. So maybe\u2013<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:24:31] I love Italy, so I jump on that. Well, I love traveling, so I\u2019m good with that because I can\u2013 Ramit, don\u2019t get mad at me for thinking this, but I will be able to save for that. I\u2019ll do that. I like saving. It\u2019s okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:24:53] Look, I\u2019m not here to get mad at you. I\u2019m here to help you listen to that voice. I really like that you said, \u201cYeah, I can get with that.\u201d Sometimes, look, you\u2019re still going to have a little bit of that accountant in your back pocket. It\u2019s never going to go away. That\u2019s okay. If you feel the need to have a little document where you write down, okay, I need to put aside $2,000 a month. Okay.<\/p>\n<p>But part of changing your dynamic sometimes is to start with the behavior first, and often the attitude follows. You\u2019re figuring it out together versus I\u2019m saying this and you\u2019re saying that and like, why you\u2019re multimillionaires? Why the fuck are we arguing over $10,000? It makes no sense. Let\u2019s argue about \u201cI want to go to this restaurant and you want to go to that.\u201d \u201cOkay, fine. We\u2019ll do them both. But we\u2019re going to do one on Tuesday and one on Thursday.\u201d That\u2019s a cool argument.<\/p>\n<p>We don\u2019t actually have to argue anymore. We won. In my mind, I\u2019m not telling you to go drop 500K on anything. I don\u2019t even want to talk about that Florida condo. I don\u2019t think you should get it in the next 12 months. I think you should work on building up the skills of spending money first.<\/p>\n<p>Both of you should feel good. You should come up with some conventions for how you\u2019re going to make decisions about money. Certainly, if you want to go get an Airbnb, go get it. I would hold off on anything that big, but trips like Italy, New Zealand, dinners with the kids, it\u2019s a no-brainer. That should be getting done. That is a skill. It is time to build right now.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:26:31] So what you\u2019re saying is next September or is it this September, are we going to Italy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:26:42] Well, it\u2019s the one coming, 2024. Wait. 2023. Yeah, the coming September.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:26:52] Yes. We should do Italy this yeah.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Caroline:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:26:55] Yeah, exactly. Yeah, absolutely.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:26:58] Yes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:27:00] Okay.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:27:02] Are you cool with that, Tommy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:27:04] Sure. Why not? It will be fun.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:27:07] Hey, that\u2019s cool. There you go. That\u2019s Mr. Chill talking.<\/p>\n<p><strong>Tommy:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:27:10] I don\u2019t mean this in a bad way, but this went way better than I expect because I didn\u2019t think you were going to tell me much at all. I\u2019m just being honest. I do have a better perspective. You didn\u2019t tell me how you shouldn\u2019t be saving, that type of thing. You just gave me different perspectives, and I love looking at different perspectives. I love seeing both sides and then I will decide what works best.<\/p>\n<p>[Narration]<\/p>\n<p><strong>Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/strong>[01:27:43] Look, I was never going to convince in one phone call a successful 60-year-old man what to do with his accumulated fortune. He\u2019s made it this far on his own, and I\u2019m totally fine with his needing to make the final decision himself. What I hope happened is I gave him some new ways of looking at his money. I pushed him in a way that probably nobody around him pushes him. And he had to respect some of the things I was saying because I know the numbers.<\/p>\n<p>I also gave him these frameworks that he can use little people on his shoulder, which he can reference as he naturally responds in a way that he has honed over 30 years. Now, Tommy and Caroline both sent follow-ups. Let me read him to you.<\/p>\n<p>Tommy said, \u201cI\u2019ve learned that it\u2019s okay to say the following to clients, \u2018I\u2019ve decided to spend a little more time with my family. However, I will still give you the attention your project deserves, and I will continue to be available to your needs.&#8217;\u201d<\/p>\n<p>Caroline said she learned, \u201cEach time, I want to plan something with Tommy, I should bring it up as a memory instead of money.\u201d Wait, that\u2019s it? We talk for that many hours and that\u2019s the conclusion, Tommy. Your conclusion was how to talk to your clients? Okay.<\/p>\n<p>Tommy also did say, \u201cWe\u2019re planning on spending a month in New Zealand in January or February 2024.\u201d Okay, look, I\u2019ll take what I can get. Okay. Sometimes, I guess if you\u2019re 60, you\u2019re going to do things your way. All right. In a way, I find it hilarious. We spent hours talking about money psychology, and Tommy\u2019s conclusion was how to deal with a hypothetical problem client.<\/p>\n<p>In any case, I really appreciate Tommy and Caroline, both of you coming here, sharing your numbers, sharing the way that you talk about money. You can clearly see that there\u2019s a lot of love there. And you can see that Tommy does want to travel more. He enjoys the memories. There\u2019s a lot that he has to work through.<\/p>\n<p>Caroline, I know you\u2019ve been very patient. I know that with your upcoming retirement, it\u2019s going to become even more important for you to start living your rich life. So my hope is that the two of you can really create a language and a habit to do it together.<\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Tommy is 60 and he\u2019s run his own business for more than 30 years. He loves his work and doesn\u2019t plan to stop. Caroline, his wife, is 56 and is retiring from a stressful job in a few months. Together, they\u2019ve amassed over $6M. She\u2019s ready to spend it but Tommy can\u2019t stop saving and [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-119149","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Vika DD.NYC\u00ae","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119149","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=119149"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119149\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=119149"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=119149"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}