{"id":119156,"date":"2021-08-10T16:41:50","date_gmt":"2021-08-10T20:41:50","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/?p=119156"},"modified":"2025-03-31T17:40:06","modified_gmt":"2025-03-31T21:40:06","slug":"004-wendy-john","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/004-wendy-john\/","title":{"rendered":"Episode 4: &#8220;My wife didn\u2019t know I had $450,000 of debt until yesterday\u201d"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><iframe style=\"border-radius: 12px;\" src=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/embed\/episode\/3VuygxngbhzbSyxGc1fzqA?utm_source=generator\" width=\"100%\" height=\"352\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p aria-level=\"4\">John has a lot of debt. Wendy knew about the $450k he owed when they started their relationship, over ten years ago, but she only found out what the current number is the day before their call with me \u2013 and the number has gone up!<\/p>\n<p aria-level=\"4\">She wants to help him pay it off but he refuses to allow it. John insists that everything is under control, but Wendy doesn\u2019t believe him. He makes a plan, then sets it and forgets it. She needs to check the status and cross things off the list.<\/p>\n<p aria-level=\"4\">Underneath all of the financial questions, there\u2019s a deeper conflict: he wants another child. She doesn\u2019t feel ready. Does money play a part in her reluctance?<\/p>\n<p aria-level=\"4\">As you listen, notice that John and Wendy are calm, collected, and clearly love each other \u2013 even with $600,000 of debt! I\u2019ve spoken to couples who were more stressed out about $20K of debt. They have the trust, but they need help to get clarity.<\/p>\n<p aria-level=\"4\">John and Wendy\u2019s story is really inspiring because it\u2019s not like they\u2019re bickering over who wastes money or who doesn\u2019t appreciate what their partner spends on them. The real problem here is that they both love each other so much that they\u2019re willing to fight to protect each other from themselves. Wendy wants to help John because she doesn\u2019t want him to tackle things alone. John won\u2019t let her because he wants her to be able to spend her money on herself.<\/p>\n<p aria-level=\"4\">Listen for their revelations and breakthroughs around money and building a Rich Life.<\/p>\n<h2 aria-level=\"2\"><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Tools mentioned in this episode<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;134245418&quot;:true,&quot;134245529&quot;:true,&quot;201341983&quot;:0,&quot;335559685&quot;:0,&quot;335559737&quot;:450,&quot;335559738&quot;:0,&quot;335559739&quot;:0,&quot;335559740&quot;:768}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/h2>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/l-money-made-easy\/\"><span data-contrast=\"none\">Money Made Easy Mini Course<\/span><\/a><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:0,&quot;335559739&quot;:0}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/landing-conscious-spending\/\"><span data-contrast=\"none\">Conscious Spending Plan<\/span><\/a><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:0,&quot;335559739&quot;:0}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<h2><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Transcript<\/span><\/b><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:0,&quot;335559739&quot;:0}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/h2>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-content\/uploads\/Transcript-IWT-4.-John-and-Wendy-converted.pdf\"><span data-contrast=\"none\">Download PDF of the transcript here.<\/span><\/a><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:00:02] I feel like it\u2019s a huge weight that we\u2019re both carrying, like John wants a second kid, he\u2019s thinking about it, I\u2019m just like, no, like we have to pay this off. We need to make this into a manageable amount, and then we can do something else.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:00:19] John and Wendy have around $600,000 in debt. Now, 450,000 of that is John\u2019s debt, but he\u2019s not really worried about it. He has a plan and he knows exactly how he\u2019s going to handle it. Wendy, on the other hand, feels really, really anxious. In fact, she assumed that their debt was going down, but right before they got on the call with me, they looked at the numbers together and she was shocked that the debt hasn\u2019t actually gone down, it\u2019s actually gotten bigger.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:00:52] It\u2019s like, I want to cry like, oh, my God, how come it\u2019s not getting any lower?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:00:58] Soon, Wendy is going to be debt-free. And once she is, she wants to use that extra income she\u2019ll have to help John pay his debt. John refuses to let her.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:01:10] I don\u2019t want her to worry about it. At the core of it, I don\u2019t want her to worry about it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:01:14] But I am worrying about it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:01:18] John tells Wendy to relax, let him take care of things, but she\u2019s not comfortable with that. This is a common thing that one partner does. They\u2019ll tell the other, don\u2019t worry, it\u2019s fine, but that partner is worried, and it\u2019s not fine. Telling someone, don\u2019t feel that way, doesn\u2019t actually make the feeling go away. It just buries it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:01:41] Because of COVID, our health insurance, for sure, was like a topic. And so, I would be like, are we okay on the health insurance, like is everything OK? And then, he\u2019s like, oh, I stopped paying that. And I was like, what? And he\u2019s like, well, we\u2019re not working and we don\u2019t need it right now. And I was just like, what? And I just thought that was taken care of and it wasn\u2019t.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:02:04] Here\u2019s something I really want you to notice, as you listen to these two today, notice how they talk about their day. Notice how they talk about each other. Do they sound overwhelmed, stressed? Can you tell that they love each other? I think you\u2019ll be surprised as you listen in on this couple. Remember, with $600,000 of debt.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:02:26] It just confirms for me that she is so loving, and she wants to do this together, and I totally get it. She wants to be a part of my life. She wants to help me in any way possible. She\u2019s always been that way. She\u2019s intensely loyal and she\u2019s willing to do whatever it takes.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:02:47] I\u2019m Ramit Sethi, and this is the I Will Teach You To Be Rich podcast, where we listen to real couples sharing real stories from behind closed doors about money. John and Wendy have been married for 10 years. They have a young child, Emmett, who you\u2019ll hear from time to time in today\u2019s recording. That $600,000 of debt that they have is like a ghost in their relationship.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:03:11] It sits between the two of them, haunting every decision that they make. John wants another kid, Wendy doesn\u2019t even want to think about it until they pay off that debt. John feels comfortable, because he\u2019s got a plan. Wendy feels totally in the dark. Today, we\u2019re going to listen in to John and Wendy tell us about how their debt is affecting their relationship. John, when was the first time you told Wendy about how much debt you have?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:03:44] From my recollection, I told her pretty early on, probably immediately after dental school. I told her that I was about $450,000 in debt, totaling from undergrad and dental school as well, and that was about it. That was the first time I told her.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:04:05] What was her reaction when you told her that number?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:04:07] Her reaction, I remember, was it was a lot just because compared to hers, I felt like she had some help from her family, which is awesome. I admire her mom a lot. So, her reaction was one of surprise.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:04:22] Yesterday, right before this call, they filled out a questionnaire, where they included their financial details. Wendy didn\u2019t know how much debt they actually had, and when she saw the number, let\u2019s just say, she was surprised.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:04:36] He was filling out the questionnaire. I think that\u2019s when I was like, oh, yeah, so how much is that number now? And I\u2019m expecting it to be way less, because we finished dental school 10-plus years. So then, when I heard the number get bigger, and I was like, oh, no. So, I guess recently-<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:04:53] Yeah. What was your feeling when you heard that number higher than it used to be, not lower?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:05:02] Trepidation. Yeah, fear. It\u2019s like I want to cry like, oh, my God, how come it\u2019s not getting any lower?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:05:12] Did you two talk about it when you heard that number?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:05:17] Kind of. I think he was just like, it\u2019s okay, it\u2019s fine, it\u2019ll be fine. He was just kind of like, it\u2019ll be okay, Wendy. Like it\u2019s my problem. I\u2019m going to take care of it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:05:30] Notice that tactic, one partner telling the other, don\u2019t worry about it, and then layering on, it\u2019s my problem, which isn\u2019t very satisfying in a relationship with two people. When you hear that, how do you react to that?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:05:47] It\u2019s definitely annoying.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:05:50] What do you mean?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:05:51] I\u2019m on the side, saying like, I want to help you, like we\u2019re a family, and he\u2019s like, I\u2019m this macho man, I can take care of myself.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:06:01] Lots of men are raised with a deep belief that we have to take care of our family financially. And until recently, that was very, very common. That belief is so deep, it\u2019s so invisible that I call it an invisible script.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:06:15] Are you a macho man?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:06:17] No, I don\u2019t consider myself to be a macho man. I felt like it was something that I chose to undertake. It was my responsibility. Even before we got married, even before we got engaged, I felt like this is my choice, it\u2019s my responsibility, so why would I knowingly have my wife undertake that responsibility, too? Because she\u2019s already paying her own loans, and she\u2019s almost done, right? So, why in the hell would I want to add even more onto her plate?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:06:50] Like it doesn\u2019t make sense to me at all. It\u2019s on an automated path, ready to, it\u2019s set to, again, complete in about 10 years. And initially, the first, I think, year or two, I was paying it very aggressively to the point where like I would be very cheap on like money, cheap on like I wanted to stay home with my parents, coming back from dental school, and I didn\u2019t want to live like that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:07:18] So, I put it on the income-based repayment plan so that we could actually start enjoying life more, move out, and do things that we enjoy, and also plan for him, too. I don\u2019t consider myself to be a macho man. The reason why I say, don\u2019t worry about it, which again, it\u2019s probably not the right way to phrase it, is because I care about her and I don\u2019t want her to stress out about something that I, one, consciously chose to take on, and two, I feel like it\u2019s my responsibility. And I don\u2019t want her to worry about it. At the core of it, I don\u2019t want her to worry about it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:07:58] But I am worrying about it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:08:00] You are worried.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:08:02] Yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:08:03] Yeah. John doesn\u2019t want Wendy to worry about it, okay, except that his very behavior is making her worried. So, what do you think is going on here? I think it\u2019s really tempting to jump right into the solutions, but I have to tell you, I don\u2019t understand the full picture yet, so I want to probe a little bit, see if we can pick up some more clues. I know the number is big. Together, the two of you owe about $600,000, but why is that a worry to you?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:08:37] I feel like it\u2019s a huge weight that we\u2019re both carrying, and so I don\u2019t want to take on anything else. Like John wants a second kid, he\u2019s thinking about it, and I\u2019m just like, no, like we have to pay this off. We need to make this into a manageable amount, and then we can do something else.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:08:56] I feel like it\u2019s probably, maybe something a vestige of the way I tend to deal with things.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:09:05] Ding, ding, ding. Here we go. I can already tell this is a real clue.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:09:11] So, she is much more organized than I am. She keeps a calendar and everything. She\u2019s kept a calendar since she was in middle school, I believe. And she is very, very meticulous with everything. She plans, she\u2019s like incredible with keeping up to date with things for our son, planning a lot of things, right? And I\u2019m very like-.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:09:32] Play by ear.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:09:32] Play by ear, but also, once I kind of set it, like I forget about it. Once it\u2019s there, once I have a system in place that is automated, and it\u2019s like, okay, it\u2019s out of my mind. I may seem lackadaisical about it and I may seem very nonchalant about it. I\u2019m intense about certain things, but I\u2019m very, very lax on a lot of other things. And I feel like that may worry her when it comes to this like money thing, too.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:09:57] Very, very interesting. Do you have a hint of the real problem yet? I think I\u2019m starting to develop my theory now.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:10:05] I actually agree with John. It is like our personalities that I want everything to be done, like I want to check that box. I like create something, so I can make a box and I can check it. I\u2019m totally like that. And for example, his emails, it\u2019s like 10,000 unread emails, and I\u2019m like, oh, my God, that is so terrifying. And I\u2019m just like, please let me help you, I want to help you.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:10:30] Do you manage his email for him?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:10:32] No. When I see it, like if it\u2019s on, I\u2019m like, oh, my God. Like right now, it\u2019s on, I\u2019m like, it\u2019s like 30,000, and it\u2019s just like close it, minimize.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:10:45] John thinks that he\u2019s got everything under control, and to give him some credit, sounds like he actually might have a pretty good plan, but that\u2019s not the real problem here. The situation is causing Wendy to feel stressed out. I want to know what she actually believes their situation is. Notice that they each have a story of the role they play in this relationship.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:11:08] John describes himself as carefree, a guy who puts a system into place, and then doesn\u2019t worry about it anymore. Wendy describes herself as someone who loves to do lists, and someone who\u2019s bewildered and overwhelmed by unread emails. How do you think those two identities are affecting this situation? I\u2019ll give you a hint. This is not a math problem. It actually has very little to do with that number, $600,000. Wendy, do you think that John has it under control?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:11:47] I don\u2019t know. Yeah, I don\u2019t know if he does.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:11:52] Do you want to ask him?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:11:53] Do you\u2014well, he\u2019s going to say yes, but I don\u2019t know for sure.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:11:57] But ask me.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:11:59] Do you have it under control?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:01] Definitely.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:02] I don\u2019t know. I\u2019ve heard that before, too.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:05] And has it not worked out when you\u2019ve heard that before?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:08] So, because the COVID, our health insurance, for sure, was like a topic. And so, I would be like, are we okay on the health insurance, like is everything okay? And then, he\u2019s like, oh, I stopped paying that. And I was like, what? And he\u2019s like, well, we\u2019re not working and we don\u2019t need it right now. And I was just like, what? And I just thought that was taken care of and it wasn\u2019t.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:31] So, when John tells you, I got it under control, you\u2019re hearing him, but it seems like maybe you\u2019re not believing him. How could you find out if he really had it under control?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:43] So, I would have to like look at everything, like hard evidence.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:48] Okay. So, you\u2019ve turned into a CSI detective.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:52] I have, yeah.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:53] Okay. Got it. You\u2019re putting on like the suit-<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:58] Detective DDS.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:12:59] Amazing. Okay. So, you\u2019re going through it with a fine-tooth comb, you\u2019re looking at everything, you\u2019re using all kinds of X-ray type stuff, and what would it being under control mean to you? You have to probe people\u2019s language. People talk about using money to be secure. Ask them what secure means. Most of the time, it\u2019s a feeling. Some people talk about feeling comfortable or not feeling rich. Ask them what they mean. You\u2019ll be surprised what they tell you. What would it being under control mean to you?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:13:37] So, something that specifically is frightening to me is because he\u2019s saying 10 years, but I don\u2019t know like, for sure, if that\u2019s true. Like he said before, like, oh, there\u2019s a specific like 20-plus years and it\u2019ll get paid off, but I don\u2019t like see a form or like I don\u2019t see something that says like, oh, this is the date. Once this date is here, you\u2019re clear. If I see that, then I\u2019ll feel a little bit better.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:14:03] Another thing that is frightening to me is because I don\u2019t\u2014so let\u2019s say this is paid off this specific day, but then I\u2019m not sure if that\u2019s like the number that we should be paying off. Like there\u2019s all these like logistics stuff, where I\u2019m like, what\u2019s the good number that we should be paying this loan off? Is dragging it on this long, is that a bad idea? I just don\u2019t know like what to do.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:14:32] Okay. That makes sense. Should you pay it off in six years?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:14:36] Yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:14:36] Should you stretch it out for 18 years?\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:14:39] Yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:14:39] So, let\u2019s say that you got an answer to that and it was one of those numbers, could be six, could be 18, whatever the number may be, and you saw form, and it said, yeah, based on your goals and lifestyle, this is the amount you should pay each month, and that means it\u2019s going to be X years. How would you feel then?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:14:59] I would feel really good.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:14:59] Okay. Good.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:15:02] Because I understand like payments. I do that myself. I have everything nice and laid out. I\u2019m like, okay, when I\u2019m 37, this will be all done, and then like I\u2019m ready to do something else. Like I can help pay off John\u2019s loans. If I have everything like nicely organized, laid out, then I feel like I have control over the situation.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:15:21] And how do you feel right now?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:15:23] I don\u2019t feel like I have any control.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:15:25] If I\u2019m hearing you correctly, if you were to get that in an organized way, you would feel extremely comfortable with it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:15:35] And also, if John is willing to let me help him.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:15:40] What is that?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:15:40] So that that number can go down faster.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:15:45] Now, we understand what comfortable means to Wendy. What did she tell us? She told us she wants to see more details about the payments. She wants to know their options. She wants clarity on if they\u2019re using the right debt strategy. And did you catch this little offhand comment she made? She wants it to be organized. She just kind of offhandedly mentioned that, but it\u2019s a really important comment. I want you to file that away for now. She also mentioned she wants to help John out with the debt.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:16:17] We\u2019re partners, right?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:16:19] Mm-hmm.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:16:19] And so, I feel like we\u2019re helping each other with everything else, oh, do the dishes, and then I\u2019ll Emmett down, and can you do this? And then, we\u2019ll do this. Like you put laundry away and I\u2019ll take it out. Like we\u2019re doing things every day on a daily basis together, but in this aspect, it\u2019s, no, I can\u2019t let you do this. So, that\u2019s confusing to me.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:16:42] Why do you think that in this one area of life he\u2019s keeping you on the sidelines?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:16:49] Well, I guess what you said earlier, like you want to take responsibility for your education money.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:17:03] You\u2019re hearing him, and you\u2019re repeating what he said, that\u2019s true, you really are remembering it, but it doesn\u2019t sound like you really resonated with it or believe it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:17:15] Yeah, I can hear the words, but I\u2019m just like, well, I don\u2019t get it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:17:20] Is that because you see it totally differently or is there something else driving it?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:17:25] I think for me, it\u2019s just very simple decision like, oh, you need help, I\u2019ll help you, so I don\u2019t understand why it is so complicated.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:17:37] What about her request? She made two major requests for her to feel more comfortable. Did you catch what those were?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:17:47] One was the form, or having like a very clear set date, or in terms of like what\u2019s owed and confirmation that what I\u2019m saying is actually true to her.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:17:59] Yeah, that was the one. That\u2019s correct. And what was the second?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:18:01] I believe the second one would be for her to contribute and help me make the payments.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:18:07] Yeah. Okay. So, let\u2019s talk about each of those. What do you think about the first one? She wants the evidence locker in the with a full accounting-<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:18:16] She wants to get to court and everything. There is a document. I mean, it\u2019s through the government, right? I can provide her with that terms and conditions for sure, but it doesn\u2019t say an exact date, but it does say, if you continue to make payments, and it\u2019s not broken up, for 20 years, then it will be forgiven, it will be absolved, essentially,<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:18:38] And you would feel comfortable sharing that with Wendy?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:18:41] Definitely.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:18:43] Okay. That\u2019s cool. That\u2019s problem number one of two solved right there. We\u2019re halfway there. I got to tell you, I wish I had stopped right here and celebrated with both of them. This is something I call taking the win. They just came to a huge agreement on something that\u2019s been plaguing them for years. And when this happens, it\u2019s a rare opportunity to really pause, take a second, acknowledge it, even do something goofy, get a cake, put some candles on it, go to a movie, whatever. I don\u2019t think we celebrate enough. So, my bad on that one, I wish I had done it. But problem number two is really the crux of this issue. Will John let Wendy help him pay off his debt?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:19:30] No. Just because I\u2014okay. I\u2019m going to take a step back here. Again, it\u2019s my responsibility. Well, it\u2019s my responsibility, right? It\u2019s my responsibility, but not only that. She, again, is intensely loyal to the point where she\u2019s sacrificed, I believe, a lot of her own passions, her own hobbies for some time now when she became a mother, right? As it can be very common for mothers to do, they put their own passions to the side, and she\u2019s definitely done that. And I feel like for me to ask her after she\u2019s paid off her own debt, right, for me to ask her to pay some of mine, too-<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:20:29] But you\u2019re not asking me, I\u2019m wanting to do it.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:20:31] Okay. For her to pay towards my debt, even though I see no reason to pay extra to the debt that it will be paid off or it will be completed no matter what you do, right? If I continue on what I\u2019m doing right now, it will be done. So, for her to use her fund money, the money that she is working so hard to come by towards that, to delay many things that she could be doing, she could be pursuing her passions like art.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:21:12] Here\u2019s what John is saying. Because of his income-based repayment plan, the debt is going to be forgiven in a matter of years, he just has to keep paying some amount towards it. So, to him, it makes no sense to pay extra when it\u2019s going to be forgiven anyway.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:21:29] There are other important things to me as well, and making more money just to pay more, the plan is set ready. Like if I earn less, the plan will require me to pay less. It\u2019s definitely a conscious decision on my part to try to enjoy what I have in this season of my life with my son and with her as well.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:21:55] And in fact, he wants Wendy to use that money for herself.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:21:59] She\u2019s an incredible artist. She could be spending money towards that, like the money dials that you talk about, she has turned everything to like one. You know what I mean? When I know that a lot of things to her are very, very important, I want her to be able to enjoy herself. She\u2019s worked so damn hard to get to where she\u2019s at and she\u2019s almost done paying it off, like why? Why would I want her to undertake that when it\u2019s not even necessary? It\u2019s not like a macho type of thing, because again, it\u2019s going to be done anyways. There\u2019s no point.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:22:39] John sees the spreadsheet and Wendy wants to contribute, check the box. This is very, very common with partners and money. Wendy, did that answer your question?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:22:52] I think so.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:22:55] Do you remember what your original question was?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:22:58] Yeah. Like if me helping it would be a waste of money.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:23:05] And what did he say to your question?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:23:10] He said a lot.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:23:11] I don\u2019t think he answered your question.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:23:14] Well, then I agree. What\u2019s the answer?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:23:17] Now, we\u2019re getting a little closer here. John, you have clearly thought through what money means to you, and you have forms, and you chose an income-based repayment plan, and you\u2019ve been working a plan. I get that. I don\u2019t think Wendy gets that, and I don\u2019t think you have shared all of the decisions you\u2019ve made that roll up to this pay-off date. You might be doing the right thing, but if your partner doesn\u2019t understand what you\u2019re doing and why, of course, they\u2019re going to be nervous.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:23:54] Of course, they\u2019re going to be skeptical. Most of us think about making the right decisions in life, but we rarely think about how to communicate them with the people around us. That\u2019s true at work. It\u2019s also true at home. It\u2019s quite complex, the decisions you\u2019ve made. They involve government, they involve interest rates, then they involve time. And then, most complex of all and most individual is how you see money.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:24:23] And I think you see money really differently than Wendy. So, by not sharing all the logic behind your decisions, you leave Wendy in the dark. And Wendy, I can imagine you used words like trepidation and just overwhelm, it doesn\u2019t surprise me because, you\u2019re not privy to any of the layers of John\u2019s decision. So, John, when you reassure her, you tell her, don\u2019t worry, what do you think her first reaction to that is?\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:25:03] Worry. Don\u2019t use the negative word, John.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:25:06] Yeah, it\u2019s like me starting to sweat, and someone saying, don\u2019t sweat. You know that she worries especially around certain topics, I\u2019m guessing. Everyone has their areas. But Wendy, I also heard you say you like to check boxes. In fact, you said you create boxes just so you can check it. So, I know a lot of people like this, and one of the things that box checkers do is they want to pay debt off immediately.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:25:35] Yes.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:25:35] They do not want to stretch it out. And often, when I talk to them, we talk about, for example, should I pay off my mortgage or stretch it out and invest the rest? And mathematically, in a lot of cases, it makes sense to just stretch it out, stretch out your car payment or stretch out your mortgage, and then just pay the minimum, and take the rest, and invest it. But box checkers look at me like I\u2019m a Martian. They\u2019re like, I don\u2019t care what math you\u2019re showing me, I am paying this debt off as fast as I can. Would you say that that is the case for you?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:26:12] Yeah, because the total amount was 400, and now, it\u2019s 500 with more time passing by, so that doesn\u2019t make sense to me.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:26:24] John, I\u2019m sure you have a great answer for it, especially considering you have income-based repayment, et cetera, but the fact is, if Wendy doesn\u2019t know, she\u2019s in the dark. And when you\u2019re in the dark about something, oftentimes, you spin into the worst possible outcome.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:26:42] I\u2019m going to be real honest with you, we\u2019ve talked about this at least five or six times. And even with the most recent time, it was definitely a very heated topic. I think because it\u2019s been so heated every single time it\u2019s come up, I would rather not deal with it. Because in my mind, like this is maybe me being stubborn, but I\u2019m already set doing this. And this is going to sound really wrong, but no matter what I try to do, no matter what I have tried to do, I have not been able to comfort her with this. I don\u2019t want to deal with that stress, the bombardment of her like, what are you doing, like, are you kidding me, and all the things. My main stressor is probably her getting stressed out.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:27:39] Totally normal. Every person in a relationship knows there are topics that stress your partner out. And after a while, a lot of us decide it\u2019s just easier to not talk about them at all. But what if you could bring them up in a safe way? What if you could change the way you talk about the topic, so your partner really listens to you and saw it from your point of view? I can\u2019t promise that they would always agree with you and it might take some time, but I usually find that with topics like these, we\u2019ve gotten stuck in a rut.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:28:10] We\u2019re saying the same things over and over, spinning. Sometimes, a fresh perspective can really change the way that both of us approach it. John, I think you could actually open yourself up a little bit and say something like this, you could say, look, I understand you want to help me, I know you\u2019re loyal, you love me, we\u2019re partners. So, I really thought about this and I thought about what options we have.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:28:37] You\u2019re going to be done with paying off your debt soon, that\u2019s going to open up about $2,000. Now, Wendy, we\u2019re going to have $2,000 a month. Here are the options, one, yeah, you can actually put all of that towards my debt, and here\u2019s what the results would be. It\u2019s not my choice, but I\u2019m going to put it out on the table and I\u2019d love to talk to you about it. John, how do you think Wendy would react if she heard that option on the table?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:05] She would feel heard, I think.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:09] Doesn\u2019t mean you have to do it, but at least it\u2019s out on the table. It\u2019s about working the plan.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:14] That would be awesome, John, when you do that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:19] And how do you think that conversation would go differently than the last time you spoke about this debt?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:28] It would definitely be a lot smoother, not as he did.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:32] Why?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:34] When we have discussed it, it\u2019s definitely not specific, it\u2019s just the general, it\u2019ll be fine, very general. I would definitely like that.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:44] It\u2019s more like of a collaborative type of thing.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:29:47] Amazing. Amazing. Partners. This is it. You\u2019re both putting skin in the game and it\u2019s amazing. Maybe Wendy ends up contributing some amount of money, maybe not, but one way or another, she\u2019s going to contribute to this decision. And that is magical. That\u2019s what partners do. One of my personal philosophies when I travel is skin in the game. Skin in the game means, have you ever gone traveling with somebody and you kind of plan everything, and then they get there, and they start complaining, and they go, oh, I don\u2019t like this, oh, this breakfast sucks, and they just kind of cross their arms?\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:30:26] And I hate it. I decided when I travel, everybody\u2019s got to have a little skin in the game. And it could be as simple as you\u2019re responsible for planning our dinner on Thursday. And hey, you\u2019ve got two-hour block in the middle of the day, find something cool for us to do. That\u2019s it. On a whole week-long trip. That\u2019s it. But guess what? When they do that, they suddenly appreciate how hard it is to plan something like this.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:30:54] And so, I remember taking my parents on a trip, and we went to Italy, and I wanted to make it even lower stakes than that, so I just had them come to a cooking class, where we all had our hands in the dough. We were tactile. We get involved. Went so great, because people put skin in the game. When you two both put skin in the game, it could be as small as a cooking class, meaning, just tell me what you think of these options, let\u2019s talk about it, or it can be as big as contribute $24,000 a year to this debt. That\u2019s huge. That\u2019s up to you two to decide. But the two of you come together, and suddenly, you\u2019re jointly solving this problem, it changes the dynamic completely.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:31:40] Yeah.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:31:42] John has other options, too. Wendy could pay a little bit towards his debt and use the rest for herself or she could pay zero and use all of her money on herself. But just start with one, lock in the win. And there was one more thread that I heard from them that I really want to pull, remember, this conflict started, because John was so protective of Wendy that he wouldn\u2019t let her help with his debt. Now, I want to understand how she sees money in their future life. Now that we feel more comfortable with this debt, which is awesome, Wendy, you mentioned something a little while ago that really caught my eye. And you said, there are open questions like, we don\u2019t know if we want to have another child until this debt is paid off.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:32:34] Yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:32:36] So, does it feel like this debt is preventing you from moving forward?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:32:44] For sure, it is, yeah.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:32:47] In what ways?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:32:50] Well, specifically, of course, the second child, we\u2019ve been talking about it for quite some time, buying a house. Whenever we do make any kinds of decisions, it\u2019s always like, well, we shouldn\u2019t do it, because we still have a lot of money that we have to pay off.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:33:07] Yeah.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:33:08] And do both of you feel that way?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:33:10] No.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:33:11] Okay. So, Wendy, you feel that way, and John, you\u2019re like, I got my plan, let\u2019s move on, I want to talk about the rest of our lives. Okay. Remember earlier, I mentioned that offhand comment that Wendy made, how she loves things to be organized, she loves checking the box and creating to-do lists. It\u2019s really hard to think about a rich life when you have $600,000 in debt. But I don\u2019t think you can wait until you\u2019ve checked every box to start living that rich life, to start moving forward. That\u2019s perfectionism and that can be crippling. Sometimes, you have to go backwards and forwards at the same time.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:33:53] Planning a kid, I want to know like how much money for insurance, and then how much money for delivery. And then, like all this stuff, I want it all laid out. And then, John is more like, we\u2019ll play it by ear, we\u2019ll figure it out as we go. And I\u2019m like, that\u2019s not a plan.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:34:08] That\u2019s fine. But for things like this, it\u2019s almost like saving up for retirement. And then, in the whole process of it, you don\u2019t enjoy your life, you miss out on on the various stages of life, because you\u2019re saving up for this like far out date, like biologically, if we were to have another kid, it better happen like in five years or so, right? So, if you wait for 10 years, then you definitely are not going to be able to have a kid unless you adopt. You know what I mean? So, why put that on the backburner?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:34:45] I have a couple of questions for you, Wendy. Do you want to have a second child?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:34:52] I think the idea of having a second child will be fun for Emmett, but like, I don\u2019t think I want to birth another child.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:35:04] When it was just the two of you, before you had Emmett, if someone had told you, Wendy, you\u2019re going to put your art on hold for years and maybe your sleep on hold for a while, too, and you\u2019re going to take care of this little one for a long time, how do you think you would have reacted back then?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:35:30] I would say, that sucks.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:35:33] Yeah. But now, how do you feel?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:35:37] It\u2019s great.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:35:39] It\u2019s so easy to focus on the negative, but we can also flip that to focus on the positive. Thinking back, she would have told herself that having a kid sucks, but having gone through it now, she realizes there\u2019s also a lot of joy. By the way, my wife really wants to get a dog. My first response was he\u2019ll slobber. We\u2019ll have to take the dog for too many walks. He\u2019s going to restrict our ability to travel. I\u2019m focused on all the bad things. She just thinks it\u2019s going to be amazing. It\u2019ll be great for bringing us closer together. See the difference in perspective? By the way, just in case my wife is listening, I still don\u2019t want a dog. I mean, having kids, it\u2019s going to be both of you forever.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:36:21] I have a pros and cons list already.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:36:25] You do? Is it color-coded?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:36:29] Probably.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:36:29] Is it? No, it\u2019s just regular.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:36:32] Well, it seems to me that with the ghost of his big amount of debt that initially when we first started talking, that was something that it seemed hard to move on to these other decisions while this thing was still hovering. And I talk a lot about people who are driving in the fog. It\u2019s hard to see past your headlights. And so, I might tell them, oh, yeah, in five miles down the road, there\u2019s this awesome restaurant, and they\u2019re like, all I can do is see 25 feet in front of me, it\u2019s impossible to see past the fog.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:37:08] But now, I feel really confident with the two of you being able to talk about this debt and really make a collaborative plan on that. So, once you are able to say, okay, we\u2019ve decided that we\u2019re going to put this much towards it or not, it\u2019s going to be paid off in this many years or that, do we both feel good? Great. Now, you can start talking about the next part of your life, whether or not to grow your family, whether or not to travel, whether or not to both work full time. Those are questions that I think once you tackle, the ghost will become a lot easier.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:37:47] Yeah, I agree.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:37:50] Yeah, I agree, too. I tried to reassure her like, look, I\u2019m okay with not having another kid. It\u2019s not like I have to have another kid, you know what I mean? But preferentially wise, it would be nice. I want her to make a decision and know that I will love her no matter what choice she makes.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:38:14] I think that\u2019s amazing.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:38:16] It just confirms for me that she is so loving and she wants to do this together. And I totally get it. She wants to be a part of my life. She wants to help me in any way possible. She\u2019s always been that way. She\u2019s intensely loyal and she\u2019s willing to do whatever it takes. It just confirms to me who she is.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:38:37] To see this dollar amount, which is a large amount of debt, and to see you both talking about it and communicating in a way that you\u2019re inquisitive, you\u2019re asking questions, it\u2019s quite rare. And in fact, I\u2019ve had people with 1\/20 of the debt as you have, and it has truly aggravated their relationship. John, you\u2019re right, I think Wendy is a super supportive partner.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:39:02] I feel like she has not allowed herself to dream, and this is what I\u2019ve wanted for her.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:39:17] We\u2019ve spent this episode hearing what Wendy wants for John and for them, which is to get clarity on that debt, to pay it off, move forward in life, but now, we\u2019re finally hearing what John wants for Wendy.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:39:32] I want her to be able to dream and think about herself selfishly, because she has been so unselfish ever since I\u2019ve met her.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:39:46] What is your rich life, for each of you? Let\u2019s say, over the next 20 years.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">John:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:39:52] I want to at least contribute to buying a house for my parents. I want a house or a place where we live, where Wendy has like a separate room, where she has almost like an art studio for herself, where she can just like paint, do art, just have her own time, right? I want to have a nanny or like a housekeeper, right? So, we don\u2019t have to like wash the dishes, do all these things, and actually enjoy life, just being able to do the things that we actually love, like having the time to do that, too. And in terms of our love, I want to have trips with only her, like long, extended trips at least a week, just her and I so that we can connect again. I want to have vacations at least for a month, at least once a year.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:40:50] Wow, that\u2019s a lot.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:40:52] What about you, Wendy?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:40:54] My bucket list, definitely travel more. Regarding work, John knows this about me, but I love being a dentist. Like everything about it, I want to work until I\u2019m like an old lady. So, I would still be working, but maybe like three days.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:21] Okay.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:22] Three or four days.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:23] And what would you do on those other days?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:26] Yeah, I would do my arts and crafts stuff.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:30] What do you spend more time on? Go ahead.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:33] This human, Emmett.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:35] Of course. Of course.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:38] And I know John was saying this earlier that I have put a lot of stuff on hold, but I guess the way he said it sounds really sad, but I don\u2019t think it\u2019s sad.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:51] You\u2019ve chosen to do that?<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Wendy:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:41:52] Yeah, like I enjoy doing it. I love doing it. Emmett\u2019s at this age where I can do arts and crafts, and we can do that all day. And I\u2019m just like, we had the best day today, we did play with stickers, we drew, and I had so much fun.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:42:06] I think for the two of you, when you start off with dreaming about what you want to do, and could be as simple as, you want to go to an art class once a week, awesome. I mean, that\u2019s funny, because that\u2019s what John mentioned in the first few minutes of our call today. I really want her to get back into her art, if that\u2019s your thing, great, or it could be something as big as buying a house for your parents, John.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:42:28] But at least you can start there, and then when you talk about your debt and you talk about what are the options we want to do, now, there\u2019s a reason, why are we going to have this extra money and what do we want to do with it? Now, it could go to debt, certainly could, but maybe it might be better served going towards something else in your life. You both work hard. There\u2019s got to be something besides just checking boxes.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:43:04] There\u2019s got to be something beyond just checking boxes. If John and Wendy decide to put more towards their debt, that\u2019s certainly an option. If they decide to put more towards art classes or travel together, that\u2019s also their decision. Their rich life is theirs. But I do believe there\u2019s got to be something more than just checking boxes, something more than just moving on to the next thing. Money can be a source of joy, possibility.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:43:37] It can be a source of adventure, generosity. And I think those are the things that I challenged John and Wendy to think about, what is their rich life? Is it simply going down a list for the next 40 years and moving from one thing to another, or is there a richer vision, a real tapestry of their rich life that they can create together? That\u2019s my challenge for them. And I\u2019ll be very curious to see what they decide.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Ramit Sethi:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:44:05] If you\u2019ve enjoyed this episode, follow or subscribe to I Will Teach You To Be Rich on whatever podcast platform you use. We\u2019ll let you know every time we release a new episode. And if you\u2019ve really enjoyed what you heard so far, rate and review us, too. We\u2019re just starting out, so that\u2019s one of the best ways you can help support us. Thanks for listening. I\u2019m Ramit Sethi and I\u2019ll see you next time. Here\u2019s what you\u2019ll find next week on the I Will Teach You To Be Rich podcast.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Sheena:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:44:33] He gets really upset, because he wants me to be more positive and he wants to be able to do things with his money. And, sorry, it makes me feel bad.\u00a0<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Peter:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:44:47] It\u2019s okay.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b><span data-contrast=\"none\">Sheena:\u00a0<\/span><\/b><span data-contrast=\"none\">[00:44:47] Makes me feel bad that I can\u2019t like give him those things.<\/span><span data-ccp-props=\"{&quot;134233117&quot;:false,&quot;134233118&quot;:false,&quot;335559685&quot;:2010,&quot;335559737&quot;:2010,&quot;335559738&quot;:150,&quot;335559739&quot;:150}\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>&nbsp; John has a lot of debt. Wendy knew about the $450k he owed when they started their relationship, over ten years ago, but she only found out what the current number is the day before their call with me \u2013 and the number has gone up! She wants to help him pay it off [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":8,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"content-type":"","om_disable_all_campaigns":false,"_lmt_disableupdate":"no","_lmt_disable":"","_uf_show_specific_survey":0,"_uf_disable_surveys":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[290],"class_list":["post-119156","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-podcast-episodes"],"acf":[],"aioseo_notices":[],"modified_by":"Vika DD.NYC\u00ae","_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119156","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/8"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=119156"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/119156\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=119156"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=119156"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}